Just the End of the Beginning

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cemendtaur 49

A rare man. Why can`t people see that when people commit horrible acts of terrorism in the name of islam, victims of terrorism will keep associating islam with terrorism (millions of Indian muslims prove that is very untrue) so long as most muslims keep pussyfooting about terrorism?

If these people dont speak out loudly against such misuse of Islam then they are themselves to blame from bringing unjust insult to Islam. Why is it so hard to understand?

Bapu: Kindly blow yourself up.

Like myself, Muslims all over the world are expressing grief over last week`s terrorist attacks. But I haven`t heard the pledge of allegiance to civilization I was hoping to hear. Muslim religious leaders give fatwas left and right. What we need now is a very clear fatwa on terrorism: the act of attacking and killing civilians in fighting for a ``cause.`` My particular brand of Islam denounces terrorism--the terrorists need to be expelled from the faith i.e., terrorists are not Muslims and are going to hell. But we need to consult the religious leaders. Such fatwas are especially needed from Muslim religious leaders in the US. With fatwas against terrorism our religious leaders could prove to the world that Muslims are peace-loving people.

Cemendtaur

jafridi:

could you elaborate please?

Gen. Pervaiz Musharraf has decided to follow the footsteps of Air Vice Marshall Cao Ky and transformed the Pakistani Armed forces to ARVN circa 1975 almost overnight.

Mr. Sahukat Aziz will be the Pakistan`s modern day Mr. Theiu.

The end is a no brainer.

i’ve heard a lot of people say that bin laden is just a convenient target or that more proof of his involvement should be supplied before going into Afghanistan...well imo, the sooner we get rid of him, the better...the guy has a proven track record...he’s publicly said that he doesn’t care whether american military personnel or civilians are killed because to his twisted mind, innocent civilians are just as much to blame...he’s brainwashing children/youth in his many a training camps...something needs to be done with him...if he’s so infuriated with the americans, why doesn’t he do us all a favor and get his a$$ in gear and go and fight his so-called jihad ...agreed, the whole problem wouldn’t be solved just by getting rid of him...but that’s one less piece of warped lunacy...

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Don`t create monsters

In the war hysteria that currently prevails in the US it is very easy to do things that could have long-term negative consequences for this country and its allies.

The diplomatic efforts are in the right direction, to form alliances and to take the moderate Muslims away from the side of the terrorists, but any hastily adopted military action and especially a prolonged one in which innocent people get killed in large numbers could prove counterproductive and do a lot of damage by creating many more monsters.

We know what happens when innocent people get killed: the public opinion swings to an extreme; people take sides; they start shouting war cries...and people become illogical. Take the example of last Tuesday`s attacks. Whatever happened was completely crazy and there possibly cannot be any logic behind it...this is what most of us think. But if we go deep in the terrorists` minds we will find that no matter how screwed up, there was a logic there: here were some people who were very angry with certain American foreign policies-policies that were directly affecting them and other people around them; these people were too powerless to change things; the only way they could register their protest was by dying, taking along with them thousands of others.

Similarly, if innocent people get killed in the imminent American attacks in other countries, the general population of those countries will not try to understand the logic behind the attacks. The attacks will be taken at their face value: people are getting killed and America is responsible for the genocide. Thousands of Bin Ladens will be created and the US could end up facing a far greater threat of terrorism. Then, ungodly amount of money will have to be spent on intelligence and eavesdropping-and even then it will be virtually impossible to stop crazy people from pulling off stunts like the ones we saw on Tuesday.

By creating many more monsters, the USA will be jeopardizing the security of its

European allies too-if US takes extreme security measure and the terrorists find her a tough target to strike they will go after the softer spots i.e., the European countries. Creating an army of monsters will also have the potential of destabilizing those countries with large Muslim populations that, in the present conflict, will side with the US.

The strategy to fight terrorism should be well thought-out and should employ a two-prong approach:

1. Short-term strategy

The sentiments in the US are running high; many Americans want a quick ``revenge.`` To console the American public, something needs to be done right away; the Americans need to be reassured about their country and their government. And the greatest consolation at this time would be to bring Osama Bin Laden, dead or alive, to this country. This objective should be achieved without agitating the politically volatile environment in Pakistan. There are thousands of Pakistanis who believe the US to be their enemy and the Taliban government of Afghanistan to be their closest ally. Any overt US military operation using Pakistan will polarize that country and ultimately hurt the American interest. It is in the interest of the US and Pakistan to catch Bin Laden without much fanfare. Diplomacy is needed. The US should use Pakistani intelligence to hunt Bin Laden and bring him to justice. Meanwhile the Pakistani government should make friends with the religious parties in order to stop their people from drifting to the other side.

2. Long-term strategy

Apprehension of Osama Bin Laden will just be the beginning. That apprehension has the potential of opening a can of worms. Measures will need to be taken to stop the backlash, and to ultimately uproot terrorism.

A) Immediate steps to be taken after achieving the short-term objective: Elaborate intelligence network will have to be developed to counteract the backlash of the short-term objective, and to make sure that acts of terrorism do not take place in the future.

B) Honesty is needed in resolving the issues.

To finish off the war against terrorism and to ensure that terrorists are never born the root causes of some basic issues will have to be honestly addressed.

i) Skewed American foreign policies (especially the ones related to the Middle East) will have to be reviewed and corrective measures will have to be taken.

ii) We are living in an inter-connected world. People everywhere know about the prosperity in other countries. The world should not just have one Land of Opportunity, to which everyone wants to migrate to; it should have opportunities everywhere. It is time to work for the betterment of all the people of the world. A widespread prosperity in the world will ease the tension that originates from envy.

Ali Hasan Cemendtaur

Penta - gone?

Some Pakistanis and an Indian with a Pakistani heart are angry that I mentioned (2) the support terrorist osama enjoys in Pakistan. (2) Many Pakistanis celebrate the death of 5000 Americans.

An Islam hater Pakistani writes in Pakistani newspaper

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/today/editor/opi2.htm

[Osama is a popular figure in Pakistan, a role model for the patriotic boys and men who so joyously celebrated the death and destruction wrought by the terrorist attack on the mighty US last Tuesday, and of the local wits who delightedly proclaimed `Penta-gone`. Videos of Osama`s speeches and sermons are openly on sale. He can be seen and heard in recruiting drives, urging on his followers to penetrate America and Israel and hit them where it hurts most. He can be heard reciting poems he has written eulogizing terrorism and murder. At the wedding of his son earlier this year, in one of his compositions, according to AP, he described the pieces of the bodies of the infidel sailors of USS Cole flying through the air like dust particles, a sight which had his audience seen it, he assured them, would have filled their hearts with joy.]

He has always praised such killings but denied involvement.

Very different from Chowk islamists?

RE Nasah 31

I remember reading about Mullah Omar`s daughter marrying Bin Laden--and the fact that he has daughters older than the latest wife.

A while ago, the NY Times ran some stories about his origins--from some place in Yemen and about his mother who was a Lebanese socialite before her marriage to his father. Apparently, Harvard has an Islamic chair funded by another Bin Laden brother and yet another brother owns some posh apartment complexes in Boston.

Re Bijli 32

I first used to think that your fractured English was rather pathetic, but your entire mindset is even worse. For the longest time, Foreign Affairs was edited by a muslim, Fareed Zakaria. So, what does that make him, a mossad employee or a pawn in the zionist-christian-hindu cabal to crush the islamic world? The biggest enemies of Islam are not these entities, but your binladens and the jihadis.

I dont think killing bin laden will achieve anything. There is a very good reason why America is hated around the world. I suggest some of you read up on American covert operations via the CIA (an estimated 6 million people were killed by them before 1987) or their genocides in Iraq, Cuba, Libya etc.

Of course the DEAD here are a bunch of raghead darkies so dont expect any sobbing journalists.

And Id wish america would stop talking about not bombing innocent civilians, Like this has ever stopped them before!!

The sad thing here is that America has done fukked up millions of people when it wasnt even provoked, just imagine what the Snakes will do now...

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/sep/15pok.htm
Training camps in PoK closed temporarily
Apparently fearing US strikes, over 10 training camps in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir and Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) have been closed temporarily and trainee militants dispersed to different areas, highly placed intelligence sources said in Jammu on Saturday.

``As many as 12 training camps of militants belonging to the Hizb-ul-mujahideen, Harkat-ul-mujahideen, Harkat-ul-jehadi Islami, Tekreek-e-jehadi Islami, Muslim Mujahideen and Jaish-e-Mohammad were shut down after the attacks in the US,`` sources said in Jammu.

While all the camps in PoK have been closed `temporarily` and militants dispersed to different places, militants in FATA camps and on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border belt have shifted to Afghanistan, the sources said.

Most of the mercenaries, particularly from Afghanistan, have also shifted to Kabul to fight on the Taleban side in case of US attacks.
The sources said the pro-Pakistan Lashkar-e-Tayiba has sent over 500 well-trained militants to Jalalabad to help the Taleban, the sources added.

Not only this, militants currently active in Jammu and Kashmir have been asked to `lie low` by their handlers in Pakistan and Afghanistan, the sources said, adding that several instructions of such nature have been intercepted by security forces in Doda, Rajouri and Poonch districts of Jammu region.

The intercepts of conversations by cross-border militants revealed that Pakistan`s Inter-Service Intelligence has directed militant leaders to stop their activities in J&K for the time being, they added.

Militants from across the border, as per intercepts, have also asked militants in J&K to be prepared and recruit boys to fight against America in case of an attack on Afghanistan.

So now the muj have to keep their word and show the world the cajuns they have. Marines have landed in Pakistan. No planes flying over pakistan - they are taking an extar rpound trip.

Read the following from agencies

US marines land in Pak for surveillance, says report

K J M Varma in Islamabad

Amidst reports of US marines landing in Pakistan for surveillance against the Taleban and terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden, international airlines stopped using the Pak-Afghan air corridor and the country`s airport was put on high alert.

The Nation daily reported on Saturday that a special plane carrying over two dozen foreigners landed at the Chaklala air base in the wee hours of Friday.

Another daily The News quoted an eyewitness as saying that he had seen a small contingent of US troops having already landed in Islamabad.

It said, according to unofficial reports, a contingent of over 50 personnel from the Special Services Group of the US marines `Green Seals` have landed for conducting `target oriented` operations against bin Laden, prime suspect in the terrorist strikes in the US.

However, it said there was no official confirmation on this from any quarter.

Diplomatic sources confirmed the arrival of two American aircraft but declined to give further details.

Heavy contingents of the army were deployed to provide security at all airports across the country, including Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad, media reports said.

Unconfirmed reports also said that Pakistan`s air force was on high alert to guard the country`s airspace.

The News said that international airlines using a 396 nautical mile air corridor over Pakistani airspace that provided the shortest air route between the far east and Europe, stopped using the corridor.

The airlines would now have to take a circuitous route, it said.

adnan #20

[I would further like to enlighten the rather learned scholars on chowk that the hashishis mentioned by this neptune person were none other than the Ismailis Whose present leader is (Prince? of wht) Karim Aga Khan

The leader of the assasins was one Hassan Ibn Saba (man of the mountains) known in Ismaili literature as ``Da`i Hassan Ibn Saba``]

Not exactly. True that Hasan Sabah was an Ismaili dai, but he split with the Fatimid Caliphate (the Ismaili Imam) and established himself as the Imam.

Thus, at best, the assassins can be called an offshoot of the Ismailis. They were completely destroyed by the Mongols, and thus you will not find anybody today to answer for them. No point quizzing the present day Ismailis.

with regards,

``This Neptune person``

http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/sep15/iladen.htm
Pak, Taliban may get rid of Laden
From O P Verma
DH News Service
NEW DELHI, Sept 14

While the US is making logistic preparations to launch an attack on Afghanistan, plans are afoot both by Taliban and Pakistan to hand over Osama Bin Laden either dead or alive to Americans, blaming CIA for the incident, security experts feel here. Handing over Laden, dead or alive, to the US seems to be the best soft option which found favour in Kabul and Islamabad as the only face saving solution to escape the wrath of Americans. All those who broke away from the Saudi Arabian billionaire are being tapped for this operation.

One of the 150 special security guards for Laden, Omar Abdul Hakim Abu Mausab Soori, an Arab, who parted ways with Laden early this year following differences with him is believed to have been drafted for the job. Soori, being one of the aides of Laden split the bodyguards and moved out with 60 of them, who belong to Algeria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Syria. Laden, who has now taken shelter in one of the deep tunnels with all facilities under the high mountains, may run away to Libya or Iraq, Indian security agencies feel. Both Taliban and Pakistan would very much like to shift Laden to another country to stave off any military action by the US. Most of the terrorists trained by him are brain-washed Muslim youths from various countries.

After Soori separated from Laden following cash crunch owing to sealing of Laden’s accounts in Western countries, at least two attempts have been made on Laden`s life in the recent past. In April this year, one Iraqi mercenary was arrested while trying to hit at Laden and in May-June three Arab terrorists were nabbed for attempting to kill Laden. In both the attempts on life of Laden, the mercenaries were paid hefty amounts by certain forces in Riyadh.

Laden, who has moved to one of the numerous tunnels he dug out for his safety, has fully dedicated and motivated security guards of Hijbul Mujahideens belonging to Pakistan and Bangladesh. Of late, Taliban authorities were keeping a strict watch on Laden for security reasons and for strategic reasons. Taliban authorities had clubbed six training camps being run by Laden into three in Northern areas.

Dear Cemendtaur:

Your article is a collection of interesting questions.

If I may add for you two additional question:

Is this the end of the beginning -- or the beginning of the end?

Is Mulla Omar married to `sassura`` Osama Bin Laden`s daughter -- or Osama Bin Laden is married to ``sassura`` Mulla Omar`s daughter?

Thanks

#: 14

Rdesikan

Here`s a scenario that could well happen. If you think that my imagination has taken flight, who would have thought that a bunch of crazies would bring the twin towers down?



Rdesikan

We wouldnt consider you an imaginative person.You are badly mistaken.Dont think of yourself any more than what you are code coolie from india akin to pre indendence indentured sugar plantation coolie brought by British to Fiji,Trinidad,West Indies .Nothing has changed ,So dont tryto pass your self as a genius

CNN’s refutation:

http://www.poynter.org/medianews/letters.htm#jordan

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this is in response to dolphin`s Reply #: 10

I used the phrase ``reported to be`` because I was not invited in the wedding.

Kindly review the following:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/bio.html

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/bin-ladin.htm

http://members.nbci.com/afg_taliban/omar.html

http://www.islam.org.au/articles/15/LADIN.HTM

Pakistan should confirm if someone from Afghanistan was involved or not (verbal statements that Osama is responsible are not enough). If there was someone involved, ask Taleban to given them/him up, if they refuse.....let the US come in. Whoever is a part of this, should be flushed out and given the severest of punishments.

Good background material now in full text at the website for foreign affairs magazine:

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/home/terrorism.asp

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Nuclear options

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20010914-87723680.htm



Time to use the nuclear option

Thomas Woodrow

The time has come for the United States to make good on its past pledges that it will use all military capabilities at its disposal to defend U.S. soil by delivering nuclear strikes against the instigators and perpetrators of the attacks against the nation`s political capital and the nation`s financial capital.

At a bare minimum, tactical nuclear capabilites should be used against the bin Laden camps in the desert of Afghanistan. To do less would be rightly seen by the poisoned minds that orchestrated these attacks as cowardice on the part of the United States and the current administration.

To consider use of the nation`s nuclear forces, in the present circumstances, cannot be brushed aside as an overly emotional response to the unknown face of terrorism. To begin with, we know who that face belongs to, and we know where a goodly portion of his logistical and training capabilities are located. A series of low-level, tactical nuclear strikes in the Afghanistan desert would pose no risk to large population centers and would carry little risk of fallout spreading to populated areas.

Also, our nuclear capabilities were designed to include just such a mission, and they are capable of fulfilling such a mission.

Lastly, the use of nuclear weapons against the bin Laden groups and his supporters will rightly shock the world, but it will also shock those nations that have been disposed for a variety of reasons to back the terrorist groups with economic and political support. The United States will, in effect, have raised the bar against future such acts from occurring. If we, as a nation, show the willingness to use the ultimate weapon in the current situation, there can be no doubt anywhere in the globe that the United States will make good on its past pledges to defend its sovereign territory with such weapons.

The attacks that occurred this week have been classified both as acts of war and as a second Pearl Harbor, but these designations ennoble the acts in Washington and New York. An act of war is constituted when one nation-state uses military force against another. Pearl Harbor was used by Japan to attack U.S. military targets to begin such an act of war. The bin Laden groups are not nations or states, and they have primarily targeted civilian populations. In fact, the use of so-called Islamic fundamentalist terrorism on a global scale is a new phenomena, a product of the modern age. In centuries past, civilized nations would conduct ``punitive`` expeditions against pirate regimes, but those actions were strictly local in scope and the protagonists could not approach the sophistication shown by the bin Laden groups. As we have seen from such ``punitive`` actions by the previous administration, those actions achieved next to nothing.

The fight against the bin Laden groups will be a fight to the death, and this is another valid reason to make use of our nation`s nuclear forces. Unlike the more limited goals of wars between nations -- territory, formal surrender, etc. -- bin Laden`s goals are the elimination of the United States as the global leader for progressive political, economic and cultural change. Should, God forbid, the United States withdraw from the Middle East and Persian Gulf, the terrorists will raise their sights to eliminate our influence elswhere in the world. For a vision of what these groups see as their ultimate objective, we need look no further than the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, where women are beaten in the street for walking in public, owners of television sets are sent to prison or shot and ancient Buddhist monuments to universal peace and understanding are reduced to rubble.

No, the bin Laden groups must be exterminated completely before they become more powerful in their efforts to exterminate us. We should use our nuclear capabilities to help achieve this. We must, as a nation, take the firmest action possible against this growing evil in the world, before its poison spreads even further. If not the United States, who? If not now, under these circumstances, when?

Thomas Woodrow, a 22-year veteran intelligence officer, resigned from the Defense Intelligence Agency in May.

Reply

#: 16 Neptune

I would further like to enlighten the rather learned scholars on chowk that the hashishis mentioned by this neptune person were none other than the Ismailis Whose present leader is (Prince? of wht) Karim Aga Khan

The leader of the assasins was one Hassan Ibn Saba (man of the mountains) known in Ismaili literature as ``Da`i Hassan Ibn Saba``

wassalaam

Adnan

some ismaili care to rerspond?

Are these not pakistanis - they have been named.

from Jang

The daily named the suspects as Pakistanis Muhammad Asif, Rana Abdul Gafhoor, Imran Asjid Husain, Mangat Sajid Hussain, Malik Tahir Mahmood and Muhammed Shahbaz; Bolivians Maria Angela Bustillo Molina and Ana Maria Vedia Barron; as well as Imtiaz Ahmad.

check out

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/sep2001-daily/14-09-2001/main/main5.htm

This is awful. Its a sad day. Pakistanis involved in terrorism. Boy this is bad.

dolphin 10

Married a 13 year old???

You must be kidding!

Re Zafar

This heeng smelling thing is simply the work of some heengnoramus. They are misheeng something. Jeez, I could pun away for ever. But this monikor is funny, what the heck. Methinks it started with Hamidm, but the dude has a sense of humour. BTW, could we say that the Koreans are Kimchi smelling and what would the Pakis smell of? Unwashed beards? Garlic-/onion- or simply bad-breath? Suggestions welcome.

Re US engagement in the area, I do not think the Indian govt/coaltion will try to take all the credit. As I last heard, Sonia and the rest of the opposition have agreed with Vajpayee and the invitation to use Indian facilities. If you ask me, smacks of low self respect, but what else is a pauper to do. At least this time, we know which side of the bread is buttered. Just as the US has unified in its response, I think you will see such a movement in India. They`re talking of WWIII over here in NYC.

This is eerily reminiscent of about a 1000 years back.

A secret sect within Islam called the Hashishim (known to the Europeans as the `assassins`) spread its tentacles across the islamic world and much beyond, spanning Europe to India. It was a hidden political empire within the border of other empires. Established by a recluse self-declared `imam` by the name of Hasan Sabah, the followers swore absolute allegiance to the leader. They would infiltrate the ranks of his enemies and rise to positions of prominence and trust. Very often they would pose as religious teachers. At an opportune moment they would kill the enemy, but would not try to evade capture. They would calmly face sure death, having achieved their objective. They maintained their reign of terror for about a century and a half before their nerve center at Alamut and most of their network was destroyed by the Mongols under Hulaku Khan.

Maybe we will see a modern Hulaku wipe out the present day scourge.... unfortunately it will come at the cost of a Bagdad getting sacked.

fairdinkum #6 ``Pakistan armed forces on highest alert! ``

You mean they have started coming to work at 9 am, and cut out the buscuits with the late morning tea?

(Sorry, I could not resist this).

Here`s a scenario that could well happen. If you think that my imagination has taken flight, who would have thought that a bunch of crazies would bring the twin towers down?

El Mushy tries to cut a deal with the Americans over access and support. There is a coup and he is killed and the new powers are a bunch of islamist generals. And what do they do immediately but attempt to send nuclear missiles the way of India. India retaliates. The Americans also retaliate. Parts of North India are affected. Pakistan and Afghanistan are flattened.

Sounds farfetched? Any thing can happen in these wierd times, right?

correction

It shoudl have read...you reap what you sow.

Just as one sees repeatedly the collapse of the WTC in slow-motion, you are metaphorically seeing the collapse of Pakistan in action.

El mushy is between the devil and the deep blue sea. If he allows the Americans what they want, he`s damned, and if he stands up to the Americans, he`s damned as well.

In their urge to hit India after the snuffing out of the Punjab experiment, your army geniuses struck upon the Afghan situation as an ideal piggyback opportunity. To use those painful cliches, what goes around comes around. You sow what you reap.

We have entered strange times and should be expected for anything to happen.

Do I as an Indian wish to see Pakistan disintegrate. To be honest, no. Our neck of the woods is infested with problems beyond solutions, as it is. Hopefully el mushy or a more sane successor will find the true cojones to stand up to the real cancer inside Pakistan and undergo surgery without anesthesia. That is the only prescription for success.

Amit

Perhaps your advice of Ends not justifying the means would be more credible if it had been applied by Indians in India.

Clearly the ``established norms of conflict``? Ghandian non-violence did not get much of a hearing at Babri, nor by the Indian Army in Kashmir (Human rights abuses, No access to international media, No access to international human rights monitors), the North East and the 10 plus liberation struggles. Protestations by Indians that they objected to the demolitions of Mosques, even though one has demolished a couple of months ago, that an independent judiciary exist in India, presumably this is a reason none of the politicians who incited the mobs have been charged or arrested, or that India is a secular polity, presumably another reason why ``Ram Raj``, RSS, VHP Bajrang Dal, shiv Sena, etc, enjoy state protection while organizations such as SIMI are threatened with banning. Where ideas such Punyabhoomi and Pitribhoomi are used ``established norms of conflict``?

Perhaps if indians actually did some of the things they think others should be doing, their advice would be credible.

Cemendtaur

A few questions:-

What is Mulla Umar`s age?

What is osama`s daughter`s age who is married to Mulla Umar?

Usama married a 13 years old girl a few months back. Is she mulla`s daughter?

Thanks

Pretty sick for a country that claims to be leader of muslim world to be counted with Sudan, Afghanistan, Yemen, and Algeria.

Wake up. Dont just hate me.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28094-2001Sep13.html

``And then how much control do the Taliban have over Osama BL? Are they militarily capable of catching Osama BL and handing him over to the US``

The Taliban has claimed for long that the honoured guest is actually under house arrest and therefore unable to do any harm to the US. So, it should be a snap for them to lay their hands on OBL and hand him over to the US (if they decide to do so).

``Will the ensuing unrest make things quiet in the Indian-held Kashmir, making India the ultimate beneficiary of the situation...``

Aha, here comes your real concern. You do not care for the Kashmiris, only that things should not go ``quiet`` there, even if it means people dying on both sides.

One thing is clear - if Pakistan plays a role in handing over OBL to the Americans, it will receive a `bumboo` from its own jihadis, the palestinians and everyone else. Should it not play its part, it will receive a royal bumboo from the US. Your best hope is that OBL is not involved in the US attacks.

Chowkis

I’ve just looked at the CNN website, and they have an article there which seems to say that while Musharraf runs the Govt and is quite open to supporting the US in its search for OBL (and perhaps in clipping the Taleban’s wings in terms of curtailing its influence) he is not in control of the ISI, which is what sets Pakistan’s policy towards Afghanistan. URL

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/09/13/pakistan.us.bush/

Of course I have MORE questions. Anybody’s attempt to enlighten me would be appreciated:

Pakistanis, what is your opinion of this view? Accurate?

Is it realistic to expect the ISI to defy the US and to impose that position on Pakistan? What kind of local resistance to cooperation with the US could there be? Will the ISI accept the change gracefully? With what reservations?

From an outsider’s perspective, it seems that Taleban ruled Afghanistan is a source of instability to all the countries around it (with varying levels of assent or opposition from different power blocs in these countries) and that those blocs in Pakistan which oppose Taleban dominance in the region might well use support from an external power (the US) to gain dominance within the country. Is this so? If so, what form is the internal struggle likely to take? Who is likely to win? What compromises will they make?

Fellow heeng-smelling (!) Indians: How will this affect Pakistan’s relationship with India? Which groups in India will become more dominant as a consequence of US engagement in the area, and which will lose power? How will that change in dominance be played out, and what forms will any internal struggles take? (I realise that since India is one country largely removed from ground zero in this case, the changes are likely to be less immediately violent, but will they be in their own way as profound? What about Kashmir which has been shaping up as the next Afghanistan?)

Re: Islam - is what has happened and its aftermath likely to change which interpretations and understandings of Islam dominate and define the way the religion is practiced in the subcontinent? Till now fundamentalists have seemed to be dominant – largely because of the funding and support they have been receiving directly or indirectly from externals. (This is all perception – I could be wrong – feel free to correct me.) Will fundamentalist Islam continue to dominate, and in fact become more kattar? Or will other interpetations become more dominant – again, if only because of support from externals? Is there any chance of this being accepted by the populace? Will there be a battle for hearts and minds, or will there just be a battle for territory? Will Rationalists be able to reclaim Islam on the subcontinent? How will other communities see Islam (esp in India) and how will that affect the outcome?

My head is spinning now. Everyone please take care over the weekend - especially those of you in the US. An old Arab lady was harrassed here in Sydney yesterday, and I fear it is much much worse over there.

Khuda Hafiz to ALL of you

Zafar

Pakistan armed forces on highest alert!

Re:SameerJB#1

Sameer, there is one other thing that Pakistan and the entire muslim world can do - strongly condemn the use of suicide attacks anywhere in the world. I thought suicide is forbidden in Islam. Yet, we see that in Palestine, Kashmir and now in US, there is a strong tendency to adopt suicide as a means to fight jihad, in order to maximize the damage inflicted. If people have grievances, the best option to fight is to use non-violent techniques as pioneered by Gandhi. If you must use violence, at least follow the established norms of conflict. People should realize that ends do not justify the means.

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Another Thought!

Ideals Are Terrorists` Most Deadly Weapons

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34301,00.html

[And will the arraignment of Osama BL be the end of the story? Will the world become a slightly more peaceful place after that? Or, will many more Osama BLs be created after such an apprehension?]

Whenever any criminal is caught, that question is asked. When this murderer is caught the punishment to him and his supporters should be so harsh that future murderers like him crap in their pants thinking of it. That will reduce such future murderers.

If this murderers is not caught, every Pakistani Jihadi will consider himself osama. They already put his pictures in their homes.

Pakistan can do something to save the doomsday scenario for people from Morocco to Indonesia. All Pakistan has to do is to be rational. It is almost suicidal in this situation with economy declining, law, order situation deteriorating and no light at the end of the tunnel for Kashmir policy, to stand by the Talibans. Dump them, dump them, dump them...................., to save Pakistan from further falling into abyss. All those powerful generals who like to keep supporting Taliban must be dismissed.

Ist thing Pakistan must do is to strangle Afghanistan, particularly cutting off trucking and gasoline supply. The end result will be better for everybody, including people of Afghanistan. Switch loyalties to northern alliance in Afghanistan and help bring the downfall of Taliban.