Open Letter to O. B. Laden

This gentleman Mr Shah Gul is the worst kind of Islamic fanatic if you ask me.

He is as big an Islamist as Ossama Bin Laden... and worst... he is a hypocrite.

going by the present foreign opolicy of american government this country is going to live long but but just for the glory of jews and the ``free masons``.

bin laden may be accused of terrorism, for killing thousands of people because unlike america he is not in a position to devise definitions. u can see for urself that when the american planes hit iraq`s civilian population and kill hundreds of thousands human beings who are not less innocent than the victims of september 11th carnage that is not terrorism but a war against terrorism. when america fully supports and backs the jews militarily,financially,and politically, for attacking stone-throwing palestinian youths that is not called america`s terrorist network. but bin ladin`s al-qaeda is a terrorist network!!!

as for the september 11th attacks in my opinion that is just a message to america that it should not get carried too far away under the delusions of its security infallibilty.

Dear,

You have a very convuluded view of this world. You continue to live in an illusion and are very immature. Wake up and smell the coffee.

MF

Tahmed #102

Thank you :)

my views are ditto yours !

sa:)

Shirin #109 I enjoyed reading your note, actually. We cant be serious all the time, otherwise we would die of seriousness.

I almost feel sorry for the Taliban now - they are obviously just a bunch of village mullahs who are way out of their depth in the current crisis. I dont feel too sorry though, given the cruelties they have inflicted on their population and given the the loss of life in NY and Washington due to their acting all these years as if Osama is simply vacationing in Afghanistan.

Tahmed# 32,

I apologise if i sounded too jovial in my last post to you.It was definately not intended to sound like that. the [haha] at the end of your message sort of triggered a similar blend of thought... a nervous laugh ... and i was laughing WITH YOU ... NOT AT YOU !.... i trust the difference will be noted :)

Ah ! i feel so good after clarifying myself :)

sa:)

Ref Fatimah #: 106

Thank you for the wonderful article on Islamic law. I absolutely love the part about how Muslims are required to deal with non-Muslims nicely. I shall shortly apply for an immigrant visa to Pakistan.

I suppose that is why you guys are killing Shias and Ahmediyyas. After all, they are claiming to be Muslims. The Quran doesn`t say anything about treating Muslims nicely, does it?

And, can you tell me about the blasphemy part of the Shariat? You know, that poor Anatomy lecturer who has been sentenced to death for saying that Prophet Muhammad didn`t shave his armpit and pubic hair.

One would think a religion that is supported by someone`s pubic hair doesn`t have too strong a foundation.

Fatimah bibi

Living in America you are teaching me the virtues of Islamic regimes. I dont have to read your bs to know what happens. Proof of pudding is in the eating.

I think you would be interesting also.

Heritage,

Slobo Milosovic to this day denies he had anything to do with the massacre of Bosnians in Kosovo. It seems that ``brave freedom fighters`` of these movements turn into spineless cowards once they are asked to take responsibility for their crimes. My point was, hasn`t Osama been linked to various acts of terrorism? Why not get him anyway?

Can we find the proof that the innocent people who died at WTC, were linked to the crimes that the terrorists who crashed those planes were protesting? Can we ask the jihadis to provide this proof?

The vulture brothers of bin Laden are the Taliban.

At this point I think someone should have the courage to deal with these people, since it seems very few Muslim governments have had the interest. I am no supporter of certain American policies, but if the Taliban and bin Laden are cleaned out and the Afghani people are spared, I am all for it.Of course these brave men are hiding behind the thin bodies of innocent women, men and children. M`ash`allah!

You accuse bin laden of selfishness, shameless exhibitionism and fraud……on what basis. What evidence do you have 2 incriminate bin laden in any of these crimes. If usa could not come up with any kind of evidence with all its intelligence companies, how can you.

And what evidence do you have that Osama is conducting the suicide bombings.

For god’s sake do Americans have nothing else 2 do but blame bin laden 4 everything.

and if u think taliban and bin laden r 2 separate things u r sadly mistaken, they r working 4 the same cause

Kafir Dada

HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Funny but true.

Soysauce. Question for you. If you win will send you ten dollars.

What is the difference between India and Pakistan

Answer:

India has Madras, Pakistan has Madrasas

Shahgul,

Liked your idea and your piece. If you don`t mind, here`s my own personal message, just in case the Ladin lad unwinds after a heavy day of financing, motivating, and slinking around:

Bin Laden Sahib,

How should we deal with you? Should we just ``take you out``, U.S. style? Even the most peaceful among us would like to see you in a very uncomfortable way, even torture, a la Twisted Sister blaring out of speakers set up in the hills of Afghanistan, or maybe Air Supply, until you came oozing out of your crag, hands jammed against your ears? We are ``all out of love`` for you, Osama, and I can`t think of a reason in your defense. Are we to believe that you are not responsible for this? If by some stretch of the imagination (and this world, thanks to your little boys, filled with spit and teenage testosterone, our imaginations have expanded and snapped back) you are not responsible, could we allow you to be the poster boy for The Wanted Jihadi?

Were you not responsible for other atrocities?

What I don`t get, is how you guys stay alive. Saddam, Amin, Pinochet, you, how do you men of such little conscience, scuttle around the world, while the mundane among us, the earnest, the unlucky, the banally wicked, the angels are bombed, executed, starved, poisoned, diseased? Or forced to watch your repugnant, vicious displays? Is this not enough to turn the heart of a firefighter, a housewife, to stone?

There is a group of religious people in Afghanistan meeting to decide whether they should give you up. Unfortunately, the answer has not been clearly revealed to them already. You, who like your brother vultures, have fed on the misery and destitution of the Afghani people.I personally would like to see each every country who lost citizens on Black Tuesday to sue your Saudi backside in an international tribunal. I`d like to see you and Milosevic spend time in hell slinging peas at each other. I`m angry at you because you and your bozos sorely test the humanism I have spent my life believing. I don`t know what should be done with you and your evil little fan club. And quite frankly, once you`ve been caught, I won`t care. Bon voyage!

#90 kafir khan

Man you`re a blast! Keep them coming..

ur whole letter seems to based on the ASSUMPTION that bin laden ws invloved in the terrorist attacks on america( or in any kind of terrorism in the past)please refrain from passsing judgements on people without any knowledge.

Interesting article, but rather disturbing to me. The author makes some good points, but the central focus bothers me.

The author implies that America should be left alone because there are many Muslims here and because we might be able to convert a few more.

So, if there were no Muslims or potential converts, it would be okay to kill Americans?

Romair,

#81

I fully agree with you. I have said this on previous posts. This is a true gift from God for Pakistan & Mushy in particular. Its just sad that 5000+ people had to die.

Ever since the Agra summit, my impressions of Mushy are changing. He is intelligent,methodical, thoughtful & tenacious as heck. He is far better than the spineless NS or the ditzy BB.

This is the time for him to become a true international statesman. This is the time for him to consolidate his power domestically; build a national consensus & then go after the fundos & erase Zia`s disastrous legacy, for good..

Since less than 5% of the Pakistani population truely supports the fundos (as you & many other Pakistanis have maintained); this is the time the silent majority of Pakistan should rise & throw them out. Only a military ruler (as opposed to a civilian PM) has the ability & muscle to do it.

So far, from what I`m seeing, Mushy is doing exactly what a smart strategist should do. Pakistan`s star will rise internationally, like never before. Those who have underestimated Mushy have regretted it.

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The last part of your article is very interesting. You are a friend, sinner and a muslim. Looks like I am looking for friends like you. Me too - just like you.

My introduction:PAKBORCOK - Pakistan Born Confused Kashmiri. Swimmer, Boozer, Atlantic city, DD(Divorced Dad) part time Romeo, SOS(Sinner of sorts), Muslim, anti-Taliban, love Keema/kababs, once a week porno( Thank God I left Lahore), WGF-white girl friends, shave my armpits every Friday, Only hobby is to scout CHOWK when not driving Taxi( which I own - although medallion belongs to a Jew).

Sincerely

Kafir Kamaluddin Khan

tahmed123

Despite you calling me an extemist, you are one of the only few Pakistanis who has not tried to justify this barbaric act. You deserve respect for that.

People who do not condemn barbaric acts and make excuses are just barbarians in disguise. When push comes to shove, these people will * always * side with Bin Ladens and Thakerays. I hate them from the bottom of my heart even if that makes me a fanatic.

Shirin #78 I understand the frontier militia are now facing the Taliban soldiers across the border. We are now only a small step away from more lives being lost: who cares which side they are on - I am sure if Afghanistan had a civilized government these same Taliban soldiers would have been in schools or colleges learning something useful instead of fighting for an evil regime. What a sad, sad time we are living through...

shammi #62 Last week`s events were a nightmare. The cold-blooded calculations behind it, and the lack of any possible result other than death and destruction, make it seem as close to the definition of evil as one can think of. God only knows where all this is leading to, but let us pray that the nations of the world unite to fight this common enemy of all mankind - blind hatreds and lack of respect for the individual lives.

Mr. Romair Sir

# various posts

You mean it pays to be a terrorist and to train terrorists? Very Good.

But somehow expected better reaction from you.

Regards

Stern-Intel (Canada). A US military intelligence source revealed details of an internal intelligence memo that points to the Israeli Mossad intelligence service having links to the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks. The intelligence source, who requested his name be withheld, confirmed the internal US intelligence memo circulated four weeks ago described information that pointed to the threat of a covert Israeli operation on US soil to turn mass public opinion against Palestinian Arabs via an apparent terrorist attack on US interests that would give Israel the green light to implement a large scale military onslaught against the Palestinian Arab population.



The 11 September attack has been described by experts as being too sophisticated for a lone terrorist group to execute. ``This attack required a high level of military precision and the resources of an advanced intelligence agency. In addition, the attackers would have needed to be extremely familiar with both air force one flight operations, civil airline flight paths and aerial assault tactics on sensitive US cities like Washington, Stated David Stern an expert on Israeli intelligence operations.



The attacks targeted the Pentagon, World Trade Center towers, with the white house and air force also being targets according to the FBI. ``The attacks have certainly turned US public opinion firmly back in Israel`s favor after 11 months of Palestinian uprising, heavy criticism of Israel over war crimes allegations and racism by a UN conference in Durban. The attacks serve no Arab group or nation`s interests but their timing came in the midst of international condemnation of Israel for its policy of death squad assassination of Palestinian political and police figures``, added Stern. If verified, the news of Israel`s involvement in the US attack will come as no surprise to intelligence experts. The state of Israel has a long history of covert operations against Western targets with attacks on the King David Hotel, USS Liberty, murder of a Scandinavian UN envoy as well as espionage against the US during the Jonathan Pollard case.



On Wednesday the US defense department issued a warning to its officials to halt the leak of information on the investigation which it says is happening on a daily basis since the attacks occurred.

I pray to Allah (s.w.t) to bestow His

blessing and to direct the President of the United

States of America on Sirat-e-mustaqeem so that

His creation on planet Earth may live in peace.

(Ameen)

It is unfortunate that people in some western

countries are being harassed just because they

are arab, muslims, hindus, sikhs etc.

Before pointing finger (three fingers are pointig

towards the pointer) on Mr. Osama bin Laden, one

must obtain conclusive evidence of his guilt.

If action is taken on the basis of sentiments,

there is a real danger of ww3, which will wipe

out our civilization.

Pakistan is in an unusual situation. No matter

what decision it takes, the end result will be

almost similar. I think that Pakistan has taken

better of the two possible decisions. May Allah

(s.w.t) protect Pakistan (Ameen).

There are so many articles and interacts on chowk.

It is difficult to keep up with them. I noticed

one thing in all these, that is very frustrating.

People try to kill the messenger. This is not

civilized. We are free to agree or disagree with

the opinions of others, but we have no right to

abuse the writers.

That is it for now.

Re: Romair

It is good that Pakistan and the US are cooperating, and although you had opposed it initially, you are now fully supportive of it. Pakistan has still not indicated that it will allow the US to use airbases/ground facilities. The only way the Pakistan overflight rights alone are going to be useful are if the take-off sites are either carrier-based, or India-based. If the latter is the case, any Kashmir `gains` (ie. US to recognize that Kashmir is `freedom struggle` not `terrorism`) will be neutralized, unless Pakistan gives air bases too. I hope that the US gets full landing rights, and ground facilities in Pakistan, regardless of the calculus of Kashmir. For once, do the right thing without quid pro quos. The Kashmir problem can be settled another day at another time.

Right now, it is important that the danger to Pakistan from the fundamentalists and almost certain Taleban ire passes. That alone is justification enough. Also, remember that the Subcontinent has been invaded historically through the Khyber. Today, guarding it is Pakistan`s responsbility. Do not automatically assume that simply because 98% of Pakistan is Muslim, the threat from across the Khyber has gone away. It still lurks, in a different form. Many kingdoms/empires in India have come and gone, but the invasions never stopped. On almost all occassions, the antagonists were co-religionists. Nothing seems to indicate that things have changed today. If anything, while the rest of the world has changed dramatically, Afghanistan is still frozen in the 19th century or an even earlier period. Pakistan`s Taleban experiment is about to end with consequences that Pakistan had not imagined -- it simply reinforces my theory that the threat from across the Durand line is real and alive. The Mughals, Sikhs, British, Pakistan tried to calm the frontier with various methods (outright occupation, buffer states (agencies), alliances, etc.) to no effect. Do not underestimate the enormity of this responsibility.

#74 shima

Said a famous theoretical physicist:

I can tell you exactly what those results mean. I can give even better explanations for the opposite results.

Same for a good ``analyst``. (S)He has an explanation for every situation.

Maleeha Lodhi, the Pakistani ambassador to the US, just did a CNN interview on prime time for 10 minutes. The interviewer said they expected to see her back, quite a few times. So the media offensive is on. Americans will be a bit surprised to see someone who is a female, Ph.D., voted as one of 40 successful people to watch by Time magazine, speaks excellent English, as the Pakistani ambassador.

She spoke well enough. Some of the replies were too long. But the message was clear. Pakistan is 100% on board. Pakistani is helping the US at great national risk, and hopes the US doesn`t dump Pakistan again like it did in the post-Afghanistan war days, etc. She also pointed out that the religious parties only win 2-3% of the seats in elections (this remark is an indication of future domestic direction also).

Seems like Musharraf has made up his mind. Three birds with one stone: 1) Show that Pakistan fully opposes terrorism, thereby giving more credibility to his stance on Kashmir being a freedom fight. 2) Ensure that Pakistan gets something economic in return 3) And go after the more extreme amongst the Mullahs within Pakistan.

People have been suggesting that the Army is scared of the Mullahs in Pakistan. I had always suggested the moment Pakistan gets some economic lifeline, Musharraf would go after the extremist amongst the Mullahs, within Pakistan. Well, here it is. Had the Army been so afraid of the extremist Mullahs, there would be no way Musharraf would have accepted, ``every single demand`` of the US.

And, unlike many repliers are suggesting, ironically the US, in the short term, actually needs Pakistan more, than Pakistan needs the US. The US leadership is scared to death at the moment, and is completely unprepared to fight this kind of a war. That is why the US commentators are so confused on TV. They now that if they catch OBL, then what? Everyone knows this problem is going to take a long time to solve. And if Pakistan were to say, ``no`` to the US, there is no way the US can successfully fight a war in Afghanistan. It does not have the skills or experience. So the US could not have shoved these demands down Pakistan`s throat. A carrot was used, not a stick.

This could be Mushy`s finest hour. The first thing he probably did was to call the Chinese leadership, and is probably doing everything under their guidance. He is off to China and S.Arabia today. This will result in a stronger bond between Pakistan and S. Arabia also, since the later is dead scared of people like OBL.

So far, so good. I give Mushy an B+, uptil now. He needs to show up himself on CNN, after Maleeha Lodhi. Now if the US leadership realizes that it cannot afford to just dump Pakistan as and when it wishes, things will turn out quite well for Pakistan.

Romair

``Now all Mushy needs to do is show his face for 10 minutes on a CNN, holding his dogs, and mentioning Ata-Turk a couple of times, in an interview with Larry King or someone. After that, any anti-Pakistan media offensive from India towards the US public will only have a negative effect on India. This is the disaster for India I was refering to. ``

I don`t think its a zero sum game. Yes Musahraf may become popular, and Pakistan may get economic incentives. Will it translate into military support for the Pakistan army? Don`t think so. Not this time. Secondly, the media is focusing on Pakistan with relation to Afghan issues. The Indo-Pak problem is Kashmir related, and while it may come up as a side issue, I don`t think it will become a focus at all.

A ``disaster for India`` would have been the case if Pakistan was already demonized a la Iraq, and this was a chance at redemption. Regardless of the downswing in US-Pak ties, Pakistan has never crossed the line vis a vis the US where it has been considered a ``Rogue State``. Yes, the Indians have tried to get the US to declare Pakistan as a terrorist nation, but have never succeeded in the past. Therefore, the potential for a disaster was never created.

The most important issue is to realize that whereas the US - Pak relation has been negative in nature (Cold War paradigm of the enemy`s enemy being a friend), India`s relationship is based on a positive paradigm. Mutual trade, investment etc. That is the relationship Pakistan should aspire for, otherwise, even this time history will repeat itself. Pakistan has again become a frontline state in an American war. This time they should make sure that the relationship does not remain limited to that.

With regards to another discussion we were having, you have brought up some valid points about the Afghan issue. The United States did display unconventional thinking when it helped rebuild the Axis powers after WW2. I don`t know if they do it in Afghanistan. I personally would like the US to make sure they get a moderate US friendly gov`t there, but in my heart I don`t think that will happen. You are right in saying that nobody is really talking about that aspect at all.

One thing though, regardless of what the Americans do, they can`t leave the ordinary Afghans in a situation worse than the one in which they are.

On September 11, Jihad as a concept lost ALL and ANY MORAL IMPERATIVE. The concept of Jihad is now as outdated as the concept of a Crusade.

Stuka #64: ``Why a disaster for India? How is India affected?``

The disaster I am refering to is related to the fact that India has slowly but quite successfully replaced Pakistan as the prime US ally in South Asia. It had also quite successfully started nudging the US to a neutral to somewhat anti-Pakistan stance. Now all of a sudden, everything will be forgotten, and Pakistan will be back in the US good books.

Also, Musharraf`s picture has started coming on CNN quite a bit, and he is being portrayed as a, ``good guy`` to Joe American. It is being stressed that he is helping the US at the cost of a threat from the Taliban. Of all the countries in the world, Powell has specifically only thanked Pakistan. If the coalition forces land in Pakistan, Pakistan will be on TV all over the world, and Musharraf`s stock and Pakistan`s stock will go up furthur. After that, I don`t think India will be able to portray Pakistan in a negative light in the US for another five to ten years. At the same time, his open support against, ``terrorists`` will give more weight to his statements regarding the freedom struggle of Kashmir.

Even anti-Army Pakistanis on this site, have stopped criticizing him and are rallying behind him. His decision has been swift and bold. Unlike, the wishy washy decision making of Pakistan during the Gulf War. I hope he got a good deal from the US on this to assist in handling the after effects of this decision on Pakistan.

Now all Mushy needs to do is show his face for 10 minutes on a CNN, holding his dogs, and mentioning Ata-Turk a couple of times, in an interview with Larry King or someone. After that, any anti-Pakistan media offensive from India towards the US public will only have a negative effect on India. This is the disaster for India I was refering to.

I really wonder what goes in Romair`s mind. He is not as virulent as some others in Chowk, he seems sensible enough, but where does he get his wonderful analyses? I rememebr only few months back he was supporting those Jihadis` role in Kashmir that how they can help Indian government bow down in its knees. Now few months later it is Pakistan which is choking in these people`s bile, and yet he thinks it is such a win in media war for Pakistan. I guess, negative publicity is also a publicity. America is choking in its own creation while Pakistan is suffering the same fate. Violence brings violence only.

Ali1: 0n Farzana Versey, I agree that I always deal Farzana with anger, but honestly I feel she is bit confused, nothing else. But I stand by condemning people like Immam Bukhari. Along with Safron Brigade, these people`s existance is solely on brewing hate and divison among people. Sooner we realise better it is.

Ali1, By the way, I used to love Oprah, but not any more.

Tahmed # 32...

[[``News Item from Dawn: ``Taliban may attack neighbours helping US strike``. Ha! Ha! I am shaking with fear``..]]

Shake not T sahib ....

Fear not the day you live ...... as no one can kill you ....

Fear not the day you die ....as you are destined to

[lol] but true .....

Now please make yourself a good cup of hot chocolate ! :)

love,

sa:)

All these tears make me uneasy

By Natasha Walter

15 September 2001

`Where have our three-minute silences been for the dead of Rwanda or

Srebrenica or Sierra Leone?`

You can`t get away from it; you don`t want to get away from it. Since

Tuesday lunchtime you`ve been putting on the television at times you`d

never usually watch it, you`ve been reading newspapers with the kind of

intensity that you`d usually reserve for a thriller, you`ve been talking to

people on buses and in shops about what you`ve heard and they`ve heard in

the latest news bulletins. And yes, of course it`s natural to do that when

there is a disaster of this magnitude – you feel involved, you feel shaken,

you need to talk about it and make sense of it.

But has there been any moment when a sense of unease has crept in? Maybe

you found tears filling your eyes the first time you heard some terrible

voice mail message left by a woman in a smoking building, or when you read

the words of the anguished phone call that a man made as he sat in an

aeroplane taken over by maniacs. But then you heard another similar

message, and you read another similar message, and you looked into the eyes

of a photograph of a child or a young man who are now dead, and you read

about the couple who had just got engaged, now sundered forever, or the man

who ran from the burning building not knowing that his own sister was on

the aeroplane that had crashed into it. And then, did you wonder – are we

beginning to play this horror to ourselves like some kind of gut-wrenching

movie?

I`m not saying that we are wrong to be shocked, to want to know, to want to

hear, to want to grieve. After such devastation it is right that the

newspapers, the radio, the television should expend energy trying to

describe and make sense of it all. It is understandable that we should weep

at so many thousands of lives cut short and find ourselves turning to our

own families when we contemplate those people whose daughters and husbands

and mothers have been lost to them.

And I have always argued that news is better if we hear the victims`

voices, that we can only understand the world if we understand how big

events affect little people. So why do I feel this unease at the

ever-growing detail and space being expended on uncovering the moment by

moment experiences of the victims in this disaster? I can`t stop myself

looking at those pictures time and again, even though I`m not sure what

this repeated viewing adds to my understanding of events. I can`t stop

myself reading those details, the details of the teenage girl holding up a

snap of her dad, saying ``I`m looking for my father. He wears a gold cross

around his neck and his nickname is the Kid``, or the woman who saw the

plane coming into the second tower on television as she was speaking to her

husband, who was in the tower, on the telephone. ``I screamed, `Robert,

there`s another plane coming. Get out of the building!`, but there was no

answer and the line went dead.``

Although we may think we are being sensitive by displaying and weeping over

strangers` grief, we are not always this sensitive. Would we be so

sensitive, for instance, if America was to do over the weekend what it is

threatening to do, and start launching attacks on the country that it

believes helped the terrorists to train and equip themselves? We wouldn`t

have access to the last words of the civilians caught up in those attacks,

but we might see pictures of their burning houses and the rubble under

which they were caught.

These civilians would include utterly innocent people whose lives have

already been torn and warped by war. Would we extend our tearful sympathy

to their loved ones, seeking them through the days and nights? Would we

desperately reconstruct their last hours in smoke-filled cellars or burning

buildings? Or would we, as Richard Littlejohn in the Sun yesterday put it,

see it as merely ``toasting a bunch of barbarians in a tent in Afghanistan``?

Look at that phrase again. Toasting. Barbarians. Aren`t they human? And

don`t they bleed too?

And have we been so sensitive in the past? Yesterday, millions of people of

people all over Europe observed a three-minute silence for those who died

in New York. It is a fine gesture that asks for silence, for simple

recognition of sadness, in the face of so much mass slaughter. The media

gladly dwelt on the sense of shared experience that brought Europeans to

mourn those who died on another continent. But where have been our

three-minute silences in recent years for the dead of Rwanda or Srebrenica

or Sierra Leone? It`s worrying to think that our sense of shared humanity

only extends so far, only as far as people who look like us and speak the

same language, only as far as attacks where British nationals are killed.

It would be terrible if our grief over this attack began to blind us to

everything else in the world. No other story seems to exist any more, as if

that burning building had sucked up all the oxygen that fans the news. That

may already be putting other lives at risk: when Israel moved tanks into

Jericho and killed Palestinians in Jenin earlier this week, did they do it

in the knowledge that at this time nobody would be looking, nobody would be

criticising?

Perhaps we don`t need to ask these questions of ourselves. It would be

natural not to, and to go on looking at the images that move us most and

listening to the stories that most engage us. To play the world like a

movie that suits our already-known scripts, and not to wonder about other

scripts that we might be missing.

But what if this movie now begins to cross genres, to encompass not only

this huge terrorist attack and thousands of personal tragedies, but also

the spectacle of war? It seems telling that the parts of the media that

have been the most eager to uncover every tiny, tearful detail of sthe

tragedy have also been the most vociferous in calling for all-out war –

even before any enemy has even been identified. The rhetoric of grief,

seemingly so natural and so sympathetic, somehow seems to be shading all

too easily into the rhetoric of revenge.

Maybe that sounds alarmist to you. After all, if you read this broadsheet

all week you will have been reading people urging measured and responsible

reactions. But in other parts of the media, where the tone is more fevered,

tales of tragedy and calls for blood are going hand in hand.

One tabloid newspaper that is lying across my desk as I write this – not

some eccentric rag, but a newspaper read by millions of people in Britain –

opens on a spread with photographs of mourners and bodybags. There are two

stories here. One is full of the gut-wrenching detail to which we have

become accustomed, a story of tapping still being heard under the rubble as

a woman – God knows how they know it is a woman – tries desperately to

communicate with rescuers. The other story is headlined ``Go get `em George``

and calls fiercely for cruise-missile strikes, special forces operations

and even all-out attack.

In such a climate, those urging caution are being made out to be

cold-hearted and inhuman. But it isn`t always inhuman to want to stop

crying, and start thinking.

If we believe ALL humans are created EQUAL

OPINION

Isn`t This Duplicity?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Is the spilled blood of Indian victims any less precious than that of victims in New York and Washington? When the US asks ``Are you with us?``, we have to ask them ``Are you with us?``



TUSHAR A. GANDHI







The barbaric acts of destruction in New York and Washington has rightly roused condemnation and revulsion amongst the right thinking people of the sane world.

The condemnation of the barbarians who have inflicted this tragedy on thousands of innocent victims and left psychological scars on millions of survivors and an entire nation cannot be too loud.

Our prayers are for the victims and we sympathies with the survivors and families of the victims as well as with the traumatized citizens of America and pray that god gives them strength to overcome this tragedy.

As a citizen of a country and specifically of a city which was similarly traumatized eight years ago in 1993 by a series of bomb blasts that ripped apart many civilian establishments across the city of Bombay (now Mumbai) I am bewildered at the duplicity of US administration and politicians.

For seven years India has been asking that Pakistan, who was involved in planning training and supplying the explosives to the perpetrators of the Bombay bomb blasts, be declared a terrorist state, yet its pleas have fallen on deaf ears.

The main accused in the Bombay Bomb blast, namely Dawood Ibrahim and Tiger Memon, are openly sheltered as favoured guests by Pakistan and yet the US does not question Pakistan.

But when similar acts are perpetrated against the US on US soil it immediately gives an ultimatum to the rest of the world ``Are you with us?`` and asks every one to support what ever retaliatory actions it takes, not only against the terrorist organization but also against the countries which shelter them.

Isn`t this duplicity?

Are Victims of Bombay Bomb Blast lesser than the Victims in New York and Washington?

Indians feel bewildered and hurt when they hear that the US is seeking assistance from Pakistan in its retaliatory actions, a country which is not a democracy and which openly sponsors terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir and shelters the perpetrators of the 1993 Bomb Blasts in Bombay.

Is the spilled blood of Indian victims any less precious than that of victims in New York and Washington? When the US asks ``Are you with us?``, we have to ask them ``Are you with us?``



(Apart from being the Mahatma`s descendent, Tushar A. Gandhi, is also Managing Trustee, Mahatma Gandhi Foundation, Mumbai(Bombay), India)

Talibans are not supporting Bin Laden because he is taking advantage of their unwritten law. Talibans supporting him because Bin laden has money and followers. Talibans need him to be able to fight against the Northern Alliance.

This is a dangerous situation. Anybody on Chowk could be plotting for Usaman Bin Laden.

They Just Blended In

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38026-2001Sep15.html

Religion`s misguided missiles

Promise a young man that death is not the end and he will willingly cause disaster

Richard Dawkins

A guided missile corrects its trajectory as it flies, homing in, say, on the heat of a jet plane`s exhaust. A great improvement on a simple ballistic shell, it still cannot discriminate particular targets. It could not zero in on a designated New York skyscraper if launched from as far away as Boston.

That is precisely what a modern ``smart missile`` can do. Computer miniaturisation has advanced to the point where one of today`s smart missiles could be programmed with an image of the Manhattan skyline together with instructions to home in on the north tower of the World Trade Centre. Smart missiles of this sophistication are possessed by the United States, as we learned in the Gulf war, but they are economically beyond ordinary terrorists and scientifically beyond theocratic governments. Might there be a cheaper and easier alternative?

In the second world war, before electronics became cheap and miniature, the psychologist BF Skinner did some research on pigeon-guided missiles. The pigeon was to sit in a tiny cockpit, having previously been trained to peck keys in such a way as to keep a designated target in the centre of a screen. In the missile, the target would be for real.

The principle worked, although it was never put into practice by the US authorities. Even factoring in the costs of training them, pigeons are cheaper and lighter than computers of comparable effectiveness. Their feats in Skinner`s boxes suggest that a pigeon, after a regimen of training with colour slides, really could guide a missile to a distinctive landmark at the southern end of Manhattan island. The pigeon has no idea that it is guiding a missile. It just keeps on pecking at those two tall rectangles on the screen, from time to time a food reward drops out of the dispenser, and this goes on until... oblivion.

Pigeons may be cheap and disposable as on-board guidance systems, but there`s no escaping the cost of the missile itself. And no such missile large enough to do much damage could penetrate US air space without being intercepted. What is needed is a missile that is not recognised for what it is until too late. Something like a large civilian airliner, carrying the innocuous markings of a well-known carrier and a great deal of fuel. That`s the easy part. But how do you smuggle on board the necessary guidance system? You can hardly expect the pilots to surrender the left-hand seat to a pigeon or a computer.

How about using humans as on-board guidance systems, instead of pigeons? Humans are at least as numerous as pigeons, their brains are not significantly costlier than pigeon brains, and for many tasks they are actually superior. Humans have a proven track record in taking over planes by the use of threats, which work because the legitimate pilots value their own lives and those of their passengers.

The natural assumption that the hijacker ultimately values his own life too, and will act rationally to preserve it, leads air crews and ground staff to make calculated decisions that would not work with guidance modules lacking a sense of self-preservation. If your plane is being hijacked by an armed man who, though prepared to take risks, presumably wants to go on living, there is room for bargaining. A rational pilot complies with the hijacker`s wishes, gets the plane down on the ground, has hot food sent in for the passengers and leaves the negotiations to people trained to negotiate.

The problem with the human guidance system is precisely this. Unlike the pigeon version, it knows that a successful mission culminates in its own destruction. Could we develop a biological guidance system with the compliance and dispensability of a pigeon but with a man`s resourcefulness and ability to infiltrate plausibly? What we need, in a nutshell, is a human who doesn`t mind being blown up. He`d make the perfect on-board guidance system. But suicide enthusiasts are hard to find. Even terminal cancer patients might lose their nerve when the crash was actually looming.

Could we get some otherwise normal humans and somehow persuade them that they are not going to die as a consequence of flying a plane smack into a skyscraper? If only! Nobody is that stupid, but how about this - it`s a long shot, but it just might work. Given that they are certainly going to die, couldn`t we sucker them into believing that they are going to come to life again afterwards? Don`t be daft! No, listen, it might work. Offer them a fast track to a Great Oasis in the Sky, cooled by everlasting fountains. Harps and wings wouldn`t appeal to the sort of young men we need, so tell them there`s a special martyr`s reward of 72 virgin brides, guaranteed eager and exclusive.

Would they fall for it? Yes, testosterone-sodden young men too unattractive to get a woman in this world might be desperate enough to go for 72 private virgins in the next.

It`s a tall story, but worth a try. You`d have to get them young, though. Feed them a complete and self-consistent background mythology to make the big lie sound plausible when it comes. Give them a holy book and make them learn it by heart. Do you know, I really think it might work. As luck would have it, we have just the thing to hand: a ready-made system of mind-control which has been honed over centuries, handed down through generations. Millions of people have been brought up in it. It is called religion and, for reasons which one day we may understand, most people fall for it (nowhere more so than America itself, though the irony passes unnoticed). Now all we need is to round up a few of these faith-heads and give them flying lessons.

Facetious? Trivialising an unspeakable evil? That is the exact opposite of my intention, which is deadly serious and prompted by deep grief and fierce anger. I am trying to call attention to the elephant in the room that everybody is too polite - or too devout - to notice: religion, and specifically the devaluing effect that religion has on human life. I don`t mean devaluing the life of others (though it can do that too), but devaluing one`s own life. Religion teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end.

If death is final, a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to risk it. This makes the world a safer place, just as a plane is safer if its hijacker wants to survive. At the other extreme, if a significant number of people convince themselves, or are convinced by their priests, that a martyr`s death is equivalent to pressing the hyperspace button and zooming through a wormhole to another universe, it can make the world a very dangerous place. Especially if they also believe that that other universe is a paradisical escape from the tribulations of the real world. Top it off with sincerely believed, if ludicrous and degrading to women, sexual promises, and is it any wonder that naive and frustrated young men are clamouring to be selected for suicide missions?

There is no doubt that the afterlife-obsessed suicidal brain really is a weapon of immense power and danger. It is comparable to a smart missile, and its guidance system is in many respects superior to the most sophisticated electronic brain that money can buy. Yet to a cynical government, organisation, or priesthood, it is very very cheap.

Our leaders have described the recent atrocity with the customary cliche: mindless cowardice. ``Mindless`` may be a suitable word for the vandalising of a telephone box. It is not helpful for understanding what hit New York on September 11. Those people were not mindless and they were certainly not cowards. On the contrary, they had sufficiently effective minds braced with an insane courage, and it would pay us mightily to understand where that courage came from.

It came from religion. Religion is also, of course, the underlying source of the divisiveness in the Middle East which motivated the use of this deadly weapon in the first place. But that is another story and not my concern here. My concern here is with the weapon itself. To fill a world with religion, or religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used.

React Response to Rdesikun#53

Dear sir : thanks u for remark. I hoped undustand

i am not happy with mr. laden at all.He is lufanga chor. he is problom muslim and not muslim mentaly.

he gave bad name to everybody. Plz do not attack thinking or you like mr. laden? I demand answer respectful sir.

Very well, Bijli, no fatwah, no effort to get

any. It is not my funeral.

-Arun Gupta

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: Field Marshall Romair`s Zero-Sum Strategic Analysis

There is no dearth of reasonable, sane interlocutors in Pakistan. The only trouble is that they are not in khaki, and thus have to kow-tow to geniuses like Romair in GHQ. If Romair, who is US-educated and has a `broad` outlook persists in self-defeating zero-sum calculus, I wonder what the geniuses in GHQ must be like. Below, fortunately, is an example of good sense being propounded by one sane person:

All unquiet on the western front

http://www.dawn.com/2001/09/15/op.htm#3

Romair

``f a multi-national force lands in Pakistan, and Pakistan is on worldwide television for even a few hours, what to talk of a few days or months, it will have finally gone beyond the US State Dept. and reached into the living rooms of America. This will be a public relations coup for Pakistan, and a disaster for India.``

Why a disaster for India? How is India affected?

Re: Tahmed321 on Gowardhan and Jay

Very funny. I could not resist smiling even in these terrible days.

Last evening, there was a prayer vigil in our neighborhood for the dead in NYC and the Pentagon. The participants were from various ethnic backgrounds -- there were two afghan women as well. I could not, but help feel for them. They must be feeling very vulnerable these days. Yet, the fact that americans from various backgrounds got together for a common prayer (the african-american christian pastor was almost apologetic before offering a christian prayer in front of a mult-ethnic congregation) was a powerful, moving emotion. The ties that bind, are more powerful than the ones that separate.

Re: Tahmed321

``Let us all pray therefore for continued steps guided by common sense and by God for the coalition against terrorism``

And let us pray that America does not abandon Afghanistan like it did the last time once its interests were served.

Re: Romair #42

``This will be a public relations coup for Pakistan, and a disaster for India....``

Now Vajpayee is really scared! Playing those zero-sum games again, huh? I have seen your various positions shift from -- `Pakistan should ditch USA and fully ally with China` to `Pakistan should not allow any US ground forces` to celebrating US-Pak cooperation. Do you have any abiding principles, or do you simply turn towards wherever the winds blow?

Re: YLH

Had you not announced that you were not going to be around Chowk for a few days? What happened?

Gowardhan: Please report for duty at the nearest police station, from where you will be taken straight to the Annual Convention of Morons where you will present your various chowk posts (starting with the previous one concerning naming of children in Pakistan). After you are through presenting your posts, the morons will each come and personally thank you for making them feel good and intelligent. After that, you will be asked to submit to questioning by the Sub-Committee of Hate-Filled Morons to whom you will provide ways to fill their empty heads with hatreds. Next (sorry, Jay is jumping up and down asking to be presented to these committees as well...)

Fatimah #41 Thanks for sharing your experience on that terrible day. I think these events have touched the hearts of thinking people not just in the US but across the world.

Nasah, Stuka,

Has anyone read my post completely? Havent I said that Ossama Bin Laden and his terrorist organization are involved?

I asked a serious question... something which many have speculated and atleast One Canadian intelligence agency has put forth.... Now instead of attacking me and accusing me of throwing in the name of Mossad.... Please be serious and control your snakes of hate.

As for Indian Government`s involvement in activities against its own people, many well known Indians and many of my friends view the Ganga Hijacking in 1971 as Indian Government`s strategy to refuse Pakistan its air space. Similarly USS Liberty in 1980s according to the History Channel and many Sources within the CIA was destroyed by Mossad.

With that said anyone who has read my articles in various papers and knows my stance knows that I have a great admiration for Israel... and am known as a supporter of it, for which I was repeatedly attacked by the Islamic Society at Rutgers University....

Bijli :

If the people who did the hijackings and crashed

the airplanes into the World Trade Center, killing

so many people, ( including Pakistanis ) did a

crime against Islam, then I expect to see fatwas

from some leading Islamic religious leaders.

I expect them to say that it is a religious duty

for every Muslim to help catch the culprits.

If it is OK for Muslims not to act just because

the West has acted, then how can Muslims complain

when they get scr * *ed ?

-Arun Gupta

Tahmed

Second that thought and would add that Pakistan should also keep her interest always paramount.

The focus of the coalition seems to be Osama and/or the Taliban. This the wrong focus, but there can still be profit in it for Pakistan.

From the NYT: ``The secretary of state said that Pakistan had agreed to all of Washington`s requests. ``The Pakistani government was very forthcoming and we`re appreciative,`` Mr. Powell said.``

A victory for good sense. And a victory for good sense is a victory for all people - be they Indian, Pakistani, Afghani, American or anyone else. Let us all pray therefore for continued steps guided by common sense and by God for the coalition against terrorism.

Sikh distance themselves from terrorism

NY Sikhs mount $100,000 ad campaign



GURMUKH SINGH

TIMES NEWS NETWORK



EW DELHI: The Sikh community in New York is launching a $ 100,000 campaign in the mainstream media to dispel the impression that they are bin Laden sympathisers. More than three dozen incidents of attacks against Indians, mostly Sikhs, have been reported since Tuesday.

Businessman Sant Chatwal said ads and supplements will be carried in the New York Times and other papers from tomorrow ``to tell the Americans who we are``. These attacks have been carried out by Hispanic and other groups which don`t know anything about the Sikhs, he added.

His son, hotelier Vikram Chatwal, said community leaders took camera crews from CNN and other channels to city gurdwaras on Friday to tell the Americans that the Sikh community has nothing to do with bin Laden. ``We feel as empty as any American without the Twin Towers.``

Meanwhile, in the continuing attacks on Indians, two Sikhs were attacked near the Richmond Culture Center on Friday. Two students were also attacked in Queensboro College. ``But when the attackers came to know that their victims were neither pro-bin Laden nor Pakistanis, they apologised,`` said a Sikh leader from Richmond.

``In the prevailing atmosphere anyone wearing a turban is being presumed to be a bin Laden supporter,`` said Baldev Grewal, editor of Sher-e-Punjab newspaper in Manhattan.

A Sikh temple in West Sacramento was also targeted in what the police termed ``a hate crime``. One man was held for vandalism.

Sensing more trouble in the coming days, the Maryland-based Sikh Media Watch and Resource Task Force and other organisations have urged Sikhs to avoid going out and always carry cell phones with them ``as the anti-immigrant feeling is likely to inflame when the US mounts attacks on the terrorists and their sympathisers.``

In an interesting twist, US-based pro-Khalistan elements, who have been denying any allegiance to India, are putting out statements about their being Indians, not Arabs, in order to avoid any blacklash, Grewal said.

RE Ahmed Madani

Dude in a time of terror and pain, we all do need a little outlet for humor. Do keep writing as your profound thoughts do provide us with that desperate humor break

The answer to the bombing may be contained in this book. Read it with an open mind my fellow brothers and sisters.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ibn_al-rawandi/review.html

Re Bijli 17

You can`t help yourself but prove that your are a nincompoop each and every time. For the record, I saw it all happen live. Not on TV but before my own eyes, 2 buildings collapse taking with them thousands of lives. I know of 3 people personally who are still missing--who worked on those high floors. And so don`t bloody lecture me.

The problem with your islamist types is that you sit in the west, enjoy all the benefits and then not just criticize, but wish the worst on this civilization. I have nothing but contempt and now, seething rage for your types.

Unlike many of your types who grew up in a monoculture, I grew up in India with friends who were not just hindu but with christians, sikhs, parsis, muslims and jews. And I live in the NY area where you interact with people of all backgrounds and coexist. show me a muslim majority country where the minority is comfortable and well treated. Other than Malaysia--but for how long?

As long as you look backward to the past, you are doomed to live in it.

Suxena #35, ``Here you are posting stupidity on yet another board, while asking others to go do something. Hypocrite if I ever saw one.``

Oh pleaseeeeeee don`t use my words again. I know you can`t think of something to say of your own, but this is preposterous.

``It was not ``miniscule`` as you conveniently say -- it was in the thousands. It is still going on, except cameras have been confiscated and you will be not seeing them.``

Thousands (which is an exaggerated number) is miniscule compared to the overall population of Muslims in this world. Whether you like it or not, Muslims make up the second largest population in this world. There are bound to be some deviants, some bitter people.

What matters is, the majority of Muslims, even the most conservative ones, are appalled by this horrible tragedy. And you may pound your chest otherwise, but the reality remains, that the murder of innocents and suicide in any form is HARAM in Islam.

Swallow that and ``shut your trap`` for a change.

You`re going to get it, where you give it.

Macgupta`s question is important.

Fatwa was issued to kill a man just because he wrote a book.

Where is a fatwa now to kill those who organized killing of 5000 americans?

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=2400Teacher beats up student for criticising Osama bin Laden

Press Trust of India

West Bengal, September 15: A class five student had to be hospitalised on being severely beaten up by his Urdu teacher for making remarks against Saudi billionaire Osama bin Laden during a discussion on the terrorist attacks in US, police said on Saturday.

The teacher got so infuriated on hearing the student, Koushik Dey`s remarks against Laden on Friday that he pounced on him and thrashed him in a high school in West Bengal`s Birbhum district, they said.

The boy had to be taken to hospital for treatment, they added. While the headmaster of the school said the teacher had apologised for his action, boy`s father has lodged a complaint in Suri police station.

From The BBC

Pakistanis pray for US victims

Special Friday prayers have taken place at major mosques in Pakistan for those killed in Tuesday`s suicide attacks in the United States.
Separate prayers were also offered for Pakistani citizens who are believed to have died in the attack on the World Trade Centre in New York.

In their sermons clerics expressed their sorrow for the loss of life, saying Islam was totally against such acts against innocent people.

However, more conservative religious leaders have warned the United States against any retaliatory action against Afghanistan`s Taleban rulers.

From the newsroom of the BBC World Service

romair,

[...If a multi-national force lands in Pakistan, and Pakistan is on worldwide television for even a few hours, what to talk of a few days or months, it will have finally gone beyond the US State Dept. and reached into the living rooms of America. This will be a public relations coup for Pakistan, and a disaster for India...]

have you gone completely wacko? just a while ago, you were arguing that under no circumstances should pakistan allow its ground to be used - air routes were ok. and suddenly it is a p.r. coup for pakistan and...a `disaster for india`.

oh...i forgot...you ARE all ears.

``Pakistan extends implicit support to US, Powell hails

(Updated at 1930 PST)

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has agreed to assist the United States in whatever might be required in dealing with global efforts to combat international terrorism, sources said.

Meanwhile, US Secretary of State Powell said he wanted to thank the president and people of Pakistan for the support that they have offered, and their willingness to assist us in whatever might be required in that part of the world.`` (NEWS, Pakistan)

``Pakistan agrees to provide ground facilities

(Updated at 1550 PST)

KARACHI: Pakistan Saturday extended military cooperation to the United States of America, reports a foreign news agency.

It said Pakistan would allow to use its soil for multi-national force.`` (NEWS, Pakistan)

If a multi-national force lands in Pakistan, and Pakistan is on worldwide television for even a few hours, what to talk of a few days or months, it will have finally gone beyond the US State Dept. and reached into the living rooms of America. This will be a public relations coup for Pakistan, and a disaster for India.

I am assuming and hoping that Musharraf has been able to get an explicit gaurantee from the US that it will help control the after-effects of a counterattack against Pakistan. If this is the case, then Pakistan will come out really well from this. If this is not the case, then Pakistan will be in huge trouble afterwards.

And I hope if the US launches a ground invasion, it knows what it is doing. Fighting in Iraq is one thing, but fighting in Afghanistan is completely another. Let`s see what happens. Pakistan seems to have gotten into the good books of the US again.

. I was in bed in my apartment, which by the way is only two blocks from the Pentagon, when it was attacked. I pray that all of your friends and relatives who are in NY and DC are all safe.

For those of you interested here`s my account of the tragedy that happened yesterday.

I had a splitting headache because I couldn`t sleep all night, so I called into work at 9:20 to let them know that I would be in late. I relaxed back into bed but then at 9:38 am my eyes popped wide open...something was terribly wrong...I felt tremors laying in bed...my entire apartment shook...my heart pounding as I got out of bed. Perplexed and disoriented from my headache I opened the blinds to my sliding glass door, the sun shone in and I saw what appeared to be dust particles out in the air. I thought nothing of it really...I just figured it was debris from the construction on the apartment going up next door.

So I reached for the remote control to my TV, when my telephone rang...my mother sounded panicked on the phone...`` * * * * * * *...have you heard what happened? They hit the Pentagon, they hit the Pentagon!...`` She was worried that something may have happened to me, after all I live so close. I reassured her that I was fine...but should really rush to work. Just then I heard sirens...ambulance, fire and police all right outside my apartment.

The sounds all a cacophony of tragedy blending together...my headache only got worse. So...still in shock really, not realizing the magnitude of what

had occurred I got ready to go to work.

I got into my car as I do every morning to leave the garage of my apartment building, and once outside it seemed like I was in a transported to a scene from the movie ``Independence Day``. There were panicked people everywhere...Navy and Army personnel running away from the Pentagon right next to us...crying and walking...hugging each other and in dismay...a women had taken off her Nine West heels and was now walking in her stockings...two lane roads were jam packed with three cars in two lanes...panicked people in cars everywhere...all heading no where...traffic signals weren`t working...horns and sirens going off...complete chaos...complete disorder in once a very quiet and orderly city...cars were wedged everywhere...a stern man in a Lexus was driving on the sidewalk...people all frantically trying to get anywhere but here. I sat in all the pandemonium and chaos and looked up to see the dark clouds of black smoke out of my sunroof...and that`s when it hit home...deep in the pit of my stomach...they hit the Pentagon...they hit this large building with fathers, mothers, aunts and uncles just two blocks from what I once thought was my cozy safe apartment. It was all so unreal...so scary...

My eyes darted right and left, trying to process the chaos...and that`s when I noticed the glares from the sets of eyes fixated on me...``go back to where you came from!!! you *#@ *&

romair,

[...i am all ears]

aah, so THAT was the problem all along! the missing thing is something in BETWEEN the ears. :O)

ok. about the network...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1544000/1544534.stm

...He has been described as a ``venture capitalist`` of Islamic extremism - running ``Jihad Inc`` and its subsidiary ``Jihad-Dot-Com``.

A group might come to him with a plan for which he might supply money - or he might put one group in touch with another - or he might come up with a plan of his own and find sub-contractors to carry it out...

News Item from Dawn: ``Thousands of Afghans throng border...The Taliban officials have also strengthened their border security and their guards were baton-charging the crowed to push them back. `` I think Pakistan should take the Afghan guards out and open the borders to allow the Afghans to come to Pakistan if they seek security. Just make sure, none of the animals ruling Afghanistan sneak in with them.

News Item from Dawn: ``Taliban may attack neighbours helping US strike``. Ha! Ha! I am shaking with fear.

The second Pakistani Prophet?

Is it true that osama is now the second most common name for newborn male Pakistani children?

Long Live Jinnah, the reasonable.

The Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa recommending feath for Salman Rushdie, because he wrote a book, and recommended that Muslims anywhere and in any way they can should carry out the sentence.

Is there a similar fatwa recommending that Muslims anywhere and in anyway they can should help in catching those responsible, whoever they may be, of the September 11 massacres ?

Or are there two different standards, one for those who offend Muslims, and one for those kill non-Muslims ?

-Arun Gupta

There no poiont talkig to mad lafanga. All highclass hotel busyness suffers due this mad man. He makes muslim look bad.

http://news.sify.com/cgi-bin/sifynews/news/content/news_fullstory.jsp?article_oid=7059664&page_no=1

Terrorists close camps along Loc

Jammu, Sep 15



Training camps for Kashmir militants close to the LoC were being shut down amid fears of US military attacks, a senior Indian defence official said Saturday.

``The rebels have been asked to move to civilian areas and camp in houses till further orders,`` the official said.

The orders follow apprehension among militant groups that their training centres could be destroyed during possible US retaliatory strikes in the region, following Tuesday`s terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, he said.

In Washington late Friday, the US House of Representatives overwhelmingly approved a resolution authorizing President George W. Bush to use force against those responsible for terrorist attacks on US soil, with the US Senate also passing a similar measure unanimously earlier in the day.

``There are about 12 training camps in Pakistan controlled Kashmir, across the Poonch, Rajouri and Kupwara sectors,`` the official said.

``The rebels have been asked not to communicate using phones and wireless sets for sometime.``

Indian officials were interpreting this move as an attempt by ``Pakistani agencies,`` not to provide any further evidence of their involvement in the insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir, he added.

These developments had demoralised some of the rebels groups operating in Kashmir, the official said, adding that some militants who had crossed into Kashmir were discovered by troops trying to re-enter Pakistan.

``Three rebels were killed in Mandi area of Poonch on Friday, 225 kilometres north west of Jammu on their way to Pakistan,`` the official said.

Re: Scout

``Don`t know how much of that report is true or not, but I`m sure there are some crazy people out there who are celebrating. The important part is that the number of people celebrating is miniscule, microscopic to the number of people mourning this great loss.``

Here you are posting stupidity on yet another board, while asking others to go do something. Hypocrite if I ever saw one.

According to news reports, the Pakistani government and Palestinian authority were apparently pissed off at the journalists who took pictures of their people celebrating this. It was not ``miniscule`` as you conveniently say -- it was in the thousands. It is still going on, except cameras have been confiscated and you will be not seeing them. The Pakis even went so far as to warn journalists that they cannot guarantee the security of anyone videotaping these events.

So please, do keep your trap shut.

So now the muj have to keep their word and show the world the cajuns they have. Marines have landed in Pakistan. No planes flying over pakistan - they are taking an extar rpound trip.

Read the following from agencies

US marines land in Pak for surveillance, says report

K J M Varma in Islamabad

Amidst reports of US marines landing in Pakistan for surveillance against the Taleban and terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden, international airlines stopped using the Pak-Afghan air corridor and the country`s airport was put on high alert.

The Nation daily reported on Saturday that a special plane carrying over two dozen foreigners landed at the Chaklala air base in the wee hours of Friday.

Another daily The News quoted an eyewitness as saying that he had seen a small contingent of US troops having already landed in Islamabad.

It said, according to unofficial reports, a contingent of over 50 personnel from the Special Services Group of the US marines `Green Seals` have landed for conducting `target oriented` operations against bin Laden, prime suspect in the terrorist strikes in the US.

However, it said there was no official confirmation on this from any quarter.

Diplomatic sources confirmed the arrival of two American aircraft but declined to give further details.

Heavy contingents of the army were deployed to provide security at all airports across the country, including Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad, media reports said.

Unconfirmed reports also said that Pakistan`s air force was on high alert to guard the country`s airspace.

The News said that international airlines using a 396 nautical mile air corridor over Pakistani airspace that provided the shortest air route between the far east and Europe, stopped using the corridor.

The airlines would now have to take a circuitous route, it said.

I agree with what some of the people have been talking about... if Osama had such a well grained and trained set of resources Afghanistan would not have been a country without transport, electricity, proper health services etc. There is something else which the world is finding too easy to neglect, enemey, it appears, is surely in the shadows! I hope the Americans give it a second thought before propelling themselves into a war.