Black Tuesday: The View From Islamabad

id, looks like you are new in Chowk. We are not reading SameerJB first time as you mentioned in your post to Rsaxena. Sameer is one of the most respected contributors in Chowk for his depth of knowledge ranging from Science to religion, art to history. Not only his posts are full of logic and rich with information, he shows tremendous maturity in dealing with some intolerant people at chowk. If you have not read him, go through the archives of Chowk to dig in some of his writings, you will like them :)

Reply anNy # 432

Saxena: ``Asinine Pakistani.``

AnNy:”jo bolta hae woee hota hae”

Er….Quratulain Begum…oh dear how do I say this….(blush)….mathlab….ghalath fahmi…..Saxena is not Pakistani….didn’t you know?….No, no, I understand that he sounds like he’s from Karachi….oh, Lahore did you say…nahin, nahin…..jee, jee, bilkul sahi…..I just thought….no, he really isn’t Pakistani…no, I promise…definitely…of course….

Zafar

PS He isn’t really the rest either – he’s just had a rough time over the last week. Cut him a little slack.

Re:Reply #: 428

manoj,

India has never taken orders from USA or anybody. It acts in its self-interest. In this case, its self-interest coincides with that of USA. Besides, i have already mentioned that terrorism has been discussed on bilateral forums by India with various countries like Russia, Iran, and yes USA. India was only reiterating its support to fight Taliban and other terrorist forces, something that it has been saying all along. So, where is the question of waiting and delberating on something on which there is consensus across the political divide. That is why you do not find any opposition parties agitating against this decision. Only some muslim clerics are making ugly noises.

Pakistan OTOH made a complete 180 degree turn on its foreign policy, abandoning the Taliban completely, risking its policy on Kashmir Jehad and sided with USA with alacrity and without any deliberations. That is hard to digest.

Sridhar

Guys, did anybody watch ``Dil Chahta hai``. I watched it yesterday and Man! the movie is superb. I have watched very few Hindi movies as good as this one. Aamir Khan, and Saif rock.

With this movie I guess Aamir is the new numero uno of Bollywood leaving Shahrukh and that kid Hrithik far behind.

Re: id

``If you dont like what ROmair says, instead of biting his headoff, give some logical arguments the way he did.``

If you classify what he said (because some Kashmiri is CEO of an American sofa company, US-India relations are going shift 180-degrees) as logic, you`ve got something coming to you.

I`ve rarely heard logic from Romair. When you take away the grass, his arguments come down to his ``yes`` vs. somebody`s ``no`` or vice versa.

And when he does get caught with real facts, he runs off. A good example is the TiE board where he was caught lying red-handed but being the intellectual dwarf he is, he wouldn`t even acknowledge his mistake.

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I just saw a blip on ndtv that Saudi Arabia has

severed its relation with taliban.

I guess that leaves Pakistan as the lone-ranger.

hariharan

For those who follow the developments in Kashmir:

From The Times of India today

TODAY`S EDITORIALS
Flexi-pack Policy




hree years after sanctioning India and Pakistan on their respective nuclear programmes, the United States has lifted the sanctions, thereby implicitly recognising the two countries as nuclear powers.

The larger implications of this aside, there is one immediate truth that must be recognised. The removal of sanctions has been in the works for quite some time.

Indeed, Washington`s monotonous pronouncements in this regard had begun to bore most of us in India, especially since it was apparent that sanctions never quite made the kind of dramatic impact prophesied at the time of the Pokhran II tests.

Pakistan, on the other hand, found itself severely hamstrung by the military and economic restrictions which the sanctions implied.

It was denied access to American credit and it had to negotiate every bit of help that came from the IMF and World Bank, not to mention the unquantifiable losses accruing as a result of ceasing to be America`s friend and ally.

Simply put, Pakistan has far more to gain from this overdue step than India. And yet, that is only half the story. The real reason why America rushed to waive sanctions has to do with America itself.

It has a job on hand for which it needs Pakistan`s full and unstinting cooperation. Pakistan, in turn, is led by a man who would turn the worst adversity to his advantage.

Marry the two and you get an American administration that, without the slightest compunction, reverses what was once held out to be the lynchpin of American nuclear policy.

The irony of this should be obvious most to India and not least because of the sermons it has had to hear on the virtues of non-proliferation

AnNy:

Did you read Enid Blyton as a kid?

RSaxena:

This is chowk, it is based on opinion, I know it hurts you deeply to hear any anti India slogans, but thats a part of life. If you dont like what ROmair says, instead of biting his headoff, give some logical arguments the way he did. After all what he is saying may or may not occur, depending on what moves are made. So give a logic based argument. You quote SammerJB and we all read him the first time. Stop this hate based rhetoric, and grow up. It might burn your behind to hear stuff you dont want, but be civilized about it. Its only right.

``jo bolta hae woee hota hae``

Ha Ha Ha. This brings my childhood memories alive. When we were very young something like 10 years old, when somebody started calling other names, the other person would smile and say the above line. That name calling like calling other kutta, gadha etc was very decent though by Chowk standards :-)

A New Theory From Pakistan

Peter Maass

http://slate.msn.com/dispatches/01-09-23/dispatches.asp

* * * *

Stating the Obvious

By Mickey Kaus

http://slate.msn.com/code/kausfiles/kausfiles.asp?Show=9/23/2001&idMessage=8340

Romair:

[I had suggested before the interview that .......right man to back.]

OK, that may be one of the reasons. She is a damn shrewd person, so she has some other gains in this as well. A friend (who comes from the Sindhi landlord background)informed that she has some negotiations underway with the current government. It is ironic but when the elections take place - the same ugly ducklings come back in different garbs. All these people are rotten to the last core. Some of them hide their crookedness with money and some have laa’nut (curse) tupko-fying straight from their faces. Pakistan needs to get rid of this breed as well. This damn breed has exploited culture, traditions, values - in short, there is no deen-eemaan(principles)! And civilized nations must have some, to hold on to, for their own solidarity and existence.

[Due to this, for the first time, I actually thought Benazir made a lot of sense, and was pro-Pakistan for once, rather than pro-Benazir.]

Well, then, you did not read much into her thoughts :( I found her remark on the reinstatement of democratic rule quite diplomatic. On one hand, she wanted to show her party`s popularity and how they may be in majority, once democracy (a.k.a rubbish in our country - lawlessness for our land) is in full swing. Whereas on the other hand, that could be taken as a good selling point to the US Media that Pakistan will go back to its democratic rule, in a year or so - kind of showing the progression of steps towards democracy. Kind of blending in with the ``approved`` concept of running a state.

[However, I hope and pray, that we have now seen the last of her and her husband. ...Pakistan will be filled by some honest leaders.]

Romair, I do not think she ever had any attachment with Pakistan, Sindh or Larkaana[as these people chant]. Those who think that she has any are in for big disappointments. Attachments are developed, when one grows up somewhere, or lives and breathes at a certain place. There may be some remnants there; but patriotic attachment is something very different from ancestral attachment. Again, we have seen so many of these acrobats coming to power (through elections) and appointing the most inappropriate puppets on very responsible positions that one wonders, what the hell happened there? How could you be so idiotic?

When she was elected for the first time, as a teenager, I’d read the details on the appointed ministers to see their quals. Unfortunately, I could never comprehend the rationale behind having the most well-educated man thrown into a khailoan-ka-wazir position, whereas a ruffian being nominated as minister-of-education. And this has been so damn common amongst all the elected buffoons that you would rather never vote again. There is a very little % amongst this debauch class (should never be mistaken for elite) that cares for Pakistan. They would not let anyone else come forth: be it a kammi or someone else. This puppet show is not going to finish that easily. A wake up call – trn… trn…trn - a country needs much more than leaders with honesty. Just because we are once bitten twice shy, should not make us make another silly move and get carried away. You can have an honest leader, who is a full-fledge stupid when it comes to making decisions - phir? Leadership has a lot more to it than ``honesty.`` It demands:

- intellect
- character (there are many elements that build a character. Yes, honesty is one of them; decision making, depth, being able to delegate, result-oriented and many more)
-farsightedness
-experience
-charisma(conditional)

[Maleeha Lodhi has been doing an excellent job. I always liked her. She was one of the journalists who was hounded by Chowk`s new Messaih Mushahid Hussain and Saif-ur-Rahman, during Nawaz Sharif`s rule. I believe one of her close relatives is under the eyes of NAB for supporting one of Benazir`s corrupt shenanigans, yet she is still supporting Musharraf.]

I would hate to say that, but it’s very common in our society. Whenever a strong-headed woman is in lime-light, she is a threat to the ``little`` testosterone driven males. And if she is a single woman, her life ain`t going to be easy at all! That`s a fact - whether you like it or not - accept it and do not become defensive!

[Her credentials include the following:]

I am very well aware of those.

[If Pakistanis are desparate for supporting relatively average to good looking ladies, who speak well, and have a western outlook to them, then I suggest they throw their weight behind Maleeha Lodhi instead of Benazir.]

Yeh Kyaa Baat Hooee? I tried to reason your argument, but it does not make any sense to me. I wrote a very strong analogy, but then took it out! The above is pretty distasteful and senseless – probably, it was a bait to the male population!

[Infact, even Qazi Hussain is a better option than Benazir. And I am not particularly a fan of Qazi Hussain.]

The worst irony that our nation has faced is the dearth of strong leaders. Leadership is not playing with the emotions of the masses and then leaving them in lurch. Allah Allah Khair Sullah! I have heard him(QH) in my childhood and do not remember what he stands for. We are not, at the juncture anymore, where we pick 1 instead of 2. I suggest let the army introduce some law and order, and add stability to the constitution; otherwise, these vultures will rip the country apart. They lack leadership, are mentally sick; are timid; have bulging tummies; sustul-wajood, mukh`bootul hawas and simply munhoos! Also, I detest the mullah-turned-liberals and vice- versa. They are 1st degree retards! Imran Khan fits very well in that profile.

Rest of my commentary will follow later...

Till then, bye bye

Romair:

[I had suggested before the interview that .......right man to back.]

OK, that may be one of the reasons. She is a damn shrewd person, so she has some other gains in this as well. A friend (who comes from the Sindhi landlord background)informed that she has some negotiations underway with the current government. It is ironic but when the elections take place - the same ugly ducklings come back in different garbs. All these people are rotten to the last core. Some of them hide their crookedness with money and some have laa’nut (curse) tupko-fying straight from their faces. Pakistan needs to get rid of this breed as well. This damn breed has exploited culture, traditions, values - in short, there is no deen-eemaan(principles)! And civilized nations must have some, to hold on to, for their own solidarity and existence.

[Due to this, for the first time, I actually thought Benazir made a lot of sense, and was pro-Pakistan for once, rather than pro-Benazir.]

Well, then, you did not read much into her thoughts :( I found her remark on the reinstatement of democratic rule quite diplomatic. On one hand, she wanted to show her party`s popularity and how they may be in majority, once democracy (a.k.a rubbish in our country - lawlessness for our land) is in full swing. Whereas on the other hand, that could be taken as a good selling point to the US Media that Pakistan will go back to its democratic rule, in a year or so - kind of showing the progression of steps towards democracy. Kind of blending in with the ``approved`` concept of running a state.

[However, I hope and pray, that we have now seen the last of her and her husband. ...Pakistan will be filled by some honest leaders.]

Romair, I do not think she ever had any attachment with Pakistan, Sindh or Larkaana[as these people chant]. Those who think that she has any are in for big disappointments. Attachments are developed, when one grows up somewhere, or lives and breathes at a certain place. There may be some remnants there; but patriotic attachment is something very different from ancestral attachment. Again, we have seen so many of these acrobats coming to power (through elections) and appointing the most inappropriate puppets on very responsible positions that one wonders, what the hell happened there? How could you be so idiotic?

When she was elected for the first time, as a teenager, I’d read the details on the appointed ministers to see their quals. Unfortunately, I could never comprehend the rationale behind having the most well-educated man thrown into a khailoan-ka-wazir position, whereas a ruffian being nominated as minister-of-education. And this has been so damn common amongst all the elected buffoons that you would rather never vote again. There is a very little % amongst this debauch class (should never be mistaken for elite) that cares for Pakistan. They would not let anyone else come forth: be it a kammi or someone else. This puppet show is not going to finish that easily. A wake up call – trn… trn…trn - a country needs much more than leaders with honesty. Just because we are once bitten twice shy, should not make us make another silly move and get carried away. You can have an honest leader, who is a full-fledge stupid when it comes to making decisions - phir? Leadership has a lot more to it than ``honesty.`` It demands:

- intellect
- character (there are many elements that build a character. Yes, honesty is one of them; decision making, depth, being able to delegate, result-oriented and many more)
-farsightedness
-experience
-charisma(conditional)

[Maleeha Lodhi has been doing an excellent job. I always liked her. She was one of the journalists who was hounded by Chowk`s new Messaih Mushahid Hussain and Saif-ur-Rahman, during Nawaz Sharif`s rule. I believe one of her close relatives is under the eyes of NAB for supporting one of Benazir`s corrupt shenanigans, yet she is still supporting Musharraf.]

I would hate to say that, but it’s very common in our society. Whenever a strong-headed woman is in lime-light, she is a threat to the ``little`` testosterone driven males. And if she is a single woman, her life ain`t going to be easy at all! That`s a fact - whether you like it or not - accept it and do not become defensive!

[Her credentials include the following:]

I am very well aware of those.

[If Pakistanis are desparate for supporting relatively average to good looking ladies, who speak well, and have a western outlook to them, then I suggest they throw their weight behind Maleeha Lodhi instead of Benazir.]

Yeh Kyaa Baat Hooee? I tried to reason your argument, but it does not make any sense to me. I wrote a very strong analogy, but then took it out! The above is pretty distasteful and senseless – probably, it was a bait to the male population!

[Infact, even Qazi Hussain is a better option than Benazir. And I am not particularly a fan of Qazi Hussain.]

The worst irony that our nation has faced is the dearth of strong leaders. Leadership is not playing with the emotions of the masses and then leaving them in lurch. Allah Allah Khair Sullah! I have heard him(QH) in my childhood and do not remember what he stands for. We are not, at the juncture anymore, where we pick 1 instead of 2. I suggest let the army introduce some law and order, and add stability to the constitution; otherwise, these vultures will rip the country apart. They lack leadership, are mentally sick; are timid; have bulging tummies; sustul-wajood, mukh`bootul hawas and simply munhoos! Also, I detest the mullah-turned-liberals and vice- versa. They are 1st degree retards! Imran Khan fits very well in that profile.

Rest of my commentary will follow later...

Till then, bye bye

Zahra: Thanks for the tip on the CNN sponsored town hall meeting. I guess these are times when it makes sense for the ``silent majority`` to become more involved in community activities wherever we are. I dont know if I will be able to attend though, but thanks for forwarding the announcement in any case.

Manoj :

India had announced its support for the US in counter-terrorism well before September 11, see, for example the statement of the Indo-US Working Group on Counter terrorism at :

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/prsrl/index.cfm?docid=3784

-Arun Gupta