Caught In Between

Narain

Thanks for the considered response. Here is my opinion: Lets consider some of the points you raised, further. Are we agreed about the idea of philosophy of history and the nature of a historical fact, that is, a historical fact exist only when called upon by a historian or other observer and is ``theory laden``? Lets agree.

``The Systematic Ferment`` you refered to is in essense a power struggle within Islam and also Islam is the vehicle of the struggle. That is to say it is a reflection of conflicting philosphies of history (Religion of Ideology Vs Ideology of Religion). Why is there this power struggle in Islam? because it is now recognized in Islamia that it needs to transition to the ``modern``. who and how and whether this transition will be negotiated is what the ``ferment`` is all about. This is all taking place while a host of intellectual, social, economic, ethical and moral trends are acting on and within Islamia and upon and within the rest of the societies.

Reactionary elements see this transition as a threat to their interest and power and also to Islam itself. Within Islamia, they forever warn of the threat of Doubt. Central to their position is the positing of the ``Truth`` of Islam. It is based on a notion of religiousity in which belief and emmulation are primary. Externally, they are engaged in a power struggle with other cultures and civilizations and intellectual trends. The external struggle is colored by the humiliation experienced at the hands of the ``West``, the dissolution of Islamia as a World power, in almost every sense, from academic, scientific, moral, and military. Feeding this view of history is the education of youth with an emphasis on the glory, unity and might of the past while at the same time recalling ethical teachings based on the presuppositions and knowledge of times past. All of this is taking place in a melieu of challenging intellectual trends from without and within, political and religious authoritarianism, excessive social and economic inequities and rapid social, economic and intellectual transformations. All challenging the stasis, reactionaries seek to impose. (or from their perspective, to protect society and to ensure change at a snails pace, for the protection of society)

Other Muslims seek to understand how they arrived at the present situation. They seek to understand the meaning of their present situation within the larger meaning of being a Muslim. They understand the disharmony between their ethics and their morality and present a philosophy of history and of Islam within which they have identifed ethical underpinning of their morality. They argue that pluralism in religion is possible in Islam, as is the validity of pluralism of salvation, to the adherent. Therefore they argue there exist in Islam, the basis for religious tolerance in society, as then has to, the validy of free choice of conscience. These then lay a foundation for individual liberty and liberty as a value in society. Individual Liberty cannot exist in an authoritarian and homogeneous political, social and economic institutions. Their notion of religiousity is built around the concept of Faith. They are wary of doubt as they are accepting of it. They object to the development of a class of persons who derive their livelyhood from religion. Their notions of religiousity is related to education in the same way the alphabet is related to language or in the same way morality is related to Islam. (You may want to read ``Islamic Roots of Democratic Pluralism``, ``Reason, Freedom and Democracy in Islam`` You will also note that all these intellectuals are deeply influenced by the work or Alama Iqbal (Iqbal Lahori) and Maulana Fazul Rahman)

``Ferment``? What else could it be in the melieu we have described. Some of argued that this is reflective of an ``institutional weakeness`` with in Islam. It may be. I tend to see as reflective not only of the strength of Institutional Islam, in so far as it is an institution, but also of the tremendous vibrancy and the determination of Muslims around the world, to find meaning of and for their lives, within Islam. Compare this to some other religions. It would be meaningless to suggest that identity should not be sought within Islam - it already exists within a Islamic context, why deny it? What gives it force is the desire of Muslims to strengthen that bond.

your other assertions:

``It does not seem that a lack of religious pluralism, liberty is closely associated with poverty. India, Lanka and Thailand repudiate such a hypothesis.``

Religious Pluralism not mean the existence of multiple religions. Pluralism in religion means the intellectual acceptance of the validy of each religion to the adherent and in time and place. I would argue that out of the three India and Lanka (since I really do not know much about Thailand - as if I know about India and Lanka, but for the sake of discussion - OK?)are prime examples of both a difficient understanding of religious pluralism and this is consequently related to the lack of liberty. Another set of conflicting philosophies of history.

Indians and lankans, as well as Pakistanis, do not realize that tolerance, individual liberty are ideas that are not amenable to coming into existence, simply by edict or fiat. These ideas must be set within the primary intellectual and moral force which shapes, animates, any culture or society. The vast majority of Indians, Lankans, Pakistanis, will identify their religious affiliation as the source of moral values in their lives. You and I both know that while on these boards Indians and a few Pakistanis tend to describe themselves as ``secularists`` and ``Humanist`` (Most are just plain marxists), they are not representative of the vast majority of their countrymen`s ethos.

``...nor higher levels of education`` - Did you mean low levels of education? in those countires where relatively higher levels of education are found, there is a basic and vibrant debate on the lack of liberty and where conservatives can be counted upon to react harshly. This debate itself is indicative of intellectual vigor within Islamia and within Islam and of the growing weakness of the hold of conservative thinking.

(I wanted to, as a side line deal with the notion that there are well to do Muslim countries - relative to us - yes, but, we is Poh. But relative to world standards?, well you be the judge, look at the unemployment numbers in Saudi - Look for trouble soon there soon)



``Not all colonized cultures ended up becoming non-libertarian societies`` - Which ones did you have in mind? One`s in which religious civil wars or seperatist movements do not exist? But don`t you think that these are representative of the evolution of societies? Just because present knowledge is built on presuppositions, conventions and previous knowledge does not preclude, the possiblity that society will welcome and ideas whose time as come, so to speak. For instance, besides Kennedy, there has never been a Catholic as President in the States -and of course the separatist civil war. Will these continue to hold? The dissolution of the USSR? So what were the ideas responsible for holding it together?

``...Colonial history gives us no clue``

I feel this is too broad a statement. Libraries are filled grappling with this question. The nature of the colonial experience while similar in some aspects was also significantly dissimilar. And Colonialism acted to impart different effects on different, yet Muslim societies. The assumption that colonialism

acted upon a set of monolithic Muslim societies, bears reexamination, I feel. In any case, My opinion is that this ferment has more to do with Islamia`s trends in response to changes in the world, than anything from outside, that can be said to be singularly responsible for the ferment.

In other words, the debate is not Islam or something else. It is which interpretations of Islam will be found by a majority to be presentative of Islam.

Hey AssGand, I have some more reasons why India is not secular

1) Our national anthem is ``jana gana mana``

2) We refer to our Prime Minister as ``Pradhan Mantri``

3) We refer to our chief ministers as ``Mukhya Mantri``

4) Our flag has three colors ``green``, ``white`` and ``saffron``

5) We have 14 official languages

6) A lot of people ride bicycles to work

7) We are respectful to our guests and we greet them with ``Namaskar``

8) We call our country ``Bharat``

You are free to add more to this list if you want.

Sarwari #375,

good for you. If Musharraf can clean up the mess then it is good for India too.

I hope you will spend more time on introspecting than blaming Pakistan`s ills on India.

Even if Gandhi was the cause for extremism in Pakistan he is not around to rectify it. So, what`s the point harping about it all the time? Instead of writing articles about the problems and their causes write about possible solutions.

The kinds of YLH and you focus only on the blame game. Why can`t you be more like SameerJB and F. K. Khan who atleast try to address the issues and propose solutions to rectify the problems. Learn from them.

sarwari 375,

Yes pakistan is at turning point, turning back to what it was during the russian occupation of afghanistan. Now pakistan will be tasked with creating another set of jihadists, to fight the taliban. What a great prospect for a nation, a nation culled from the rest of india to take over the assets hindus left behind is looking for what the americans will leave behind.

At least be bold, support the TNT that created pakistan, and say that mulsims cannot support the americans, they are christians, in the true spirit of TNT.

`We will hunt down and punish those responsible` said U.S. president. I am afraid it

won`t that simple. Perhaps U.S. underestimates what it is dealing with. This is not

a new problem. It`s just that U.S. never expected that to happen with itself.

We have to look at two aspects of this problem to understand what we are dealing with.

one, why is the problem there and two, how it can be eliminated.

The Why of the problem has to be searched within ourselves and in history. And this

will come down to the policies of certain western countries over the last decade.

If we look at it closely, terrorism gained strength before our own eyes but somehow

we chose to ignore it. May it be bombing of U.S. embassies, first bombing of WTC,

Chechniya, Kashmir or Gulf war, all these attained significant magnitudes only during

the last decade. The western policies have not been uniform. Why did U.S. repond strongly

when Iraq invaded Kuwait but kept quiet when Pakistani backed Taliban attacked Afghanistan,

or when China invaded Tibetand parts of India, or when Mujahideen

backed by Pakistani troops entered India in Kargil (Kashmir), or when Indian passenger

airplane was hijacked and taken to Afghanistan and a demand of Pakistani terrorists was made.

Why we sanctions imposed when India and Pakistan tested nuclear weapons but no sanctions

were imposed against France, Russia or China or even U.S. In today`s world nobody can bully

anybody. Western countries cannot be snobbish. But they did and the result is before them.

Who made Taliban and Osama bin Laden after all? The answer is Pakistan and U.S. respectively.

Why? Because of self interests. But they forgot in the absence of a international security

policy, that you can train a terrorist for your self interest to fight against your enemy,

but you have no control over him after a while. So you see, this menace is our own creation.

Now, we got to put history behind but only after learning lessons from it and then try to

tackle this menace of terrorism. But first we have to define terrorism. Then there can be a

global alliance of countries based on a global security policy. Those countries who wish

to join this alliance must strictly abide by the global security policy. One thing which must

be in this global security policy is that no country will allow any unlicensed firearm to exist

within its bountries and this can be implemented by enforcing strict penalties for those

violating it. The United Nations and the Security Council will have to play a significant

role in implementing this Global Security Policy and they must stop being a puppet in the

hands of U.S. and should have more authority. The countries who sign this Global Security Policy

should fight together against terrorism first in their own territories and then in other

countries together in a pro-active manner.

The current handling of the crisis by U.S. also shows lack of any policy. U.S. is trying to fight

terrorism but is asking for help from a country who is a state sponsor of terrorism, Pakistan.

Pakistan made Taliban. Pakistan is funding terrorist camps in its own territory and sending

terorists in neighbouring countries on the name of Jihad. How can U.S. even think of fighting

a terrorism with a terrorist. This shows a selfish approach and a lack of policy on the part

of U.S. The west should be careful lest the third anti-christ theory of Nostradamus should

come true. That the third anti-christ might be Osama bin Laden.

Osama Bin Laden has HAVEN in India already.India house to multitude dissent from Kashmir to Naxalite to LTTE,to North East ,Bodo Land & Manipur area ,already has Osama `s Sudanese child,Sudanese student association outfit.

LADEN WITH RISK

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

A low-profile organisation comes under the scrutiny of intelligence agencies



RAJESH JOSHI









The Islamic Movement of Sudanese Students (imss) is a relatively unknown and low-profile, Pune-based organisation. But now it is high on the watch list of the IB and other Indian agencies. The reason: according to intelligence sources, its activists owe allegiance to Osama bin Laden, the prime suspect in the recent terrorist aircraft attacks in the US. Intelligence sources say that bin Laden has already been able to get a foothold in Hyderabad, Mumbai, Bangalore and some small towns of Uttar Pradesh mainly through university students from some African nations like Yemen and Sudan. Other than the imss, intelligence agencies have also put the Students` Islamic Movement of India (simi), a pan-Islamic organisation in India, under its scanner.





Intelligence agencies are worried that students from overseas could be active recruiters.





The government has already linked simi with the Kashmiri militant outfit, Hizbul Mujahideen.

The IB and Delhi Police should know about the imss. A little over three months ago, acting on an IB tip-off, Delhi Police had arrested Abdul Raouf





Hawash, a Sudanese national, and his Indian co-conspirator, Shamim Sarwar, with a pre-fabricated ied or improvised explosive device filled with 6 kg of rdx and a detonator. Two others—Abbas Hussain Sheikh alias Abbas Bhai and Arshad Khan alias Laddu—were arrested later.

With these arrests came to light a larger plot hatched by a bin Laden loyalist, Abdul Rehman Al Safani, another Sudanese national who is ``supposed to have visited India on a fake passport``. However, the police could never lay their hands on Al Safani. ``His whereabouts are not known; he just disappeared after the arrest of Hawash,`` says a top official of the special cell of Delhi Police.

Hawash is said to have provided investigators valuable information on the activities of bin Laden, especially on his masterplan of attacking US establishments in South Asia. This included an attack on the US embassy in Delhi. The plot took shape after Sarwar, a student in Patna of Urdu and Persian whom Hawash had met and befriended in 1998, came to Delhi. Hawash also met a Sudanese national, whose identity hasn`t been disclosed.

This Sudanese national, say investigators, was on a special mission to India. He was looking for technical people, especially mechanical engineers ``specialising in manufacturing arms and ammunition``, and also nuclear scientists willing to work in Sudan. The police say Hawash rented a flat in Delhi`s Munirka area to carry out the plans. In February 2001, Hawash was introduced to Al Safani. Sarwar was roped in and they discussed the plan to blow up the US embassy.

Hawash told interrogators that Al Safani promised Rs 95 lakh for the execution of the plan and had paid Rs 5 lakh in advance. According to the plan, a female driver would park a car full of explosives and a timer device near the visa section of the US embassy and quietly walk off. However, the plan failed thanks to the tip-off and subsequent arrests.

When Hawash was arrested, the IB was critical of the police exposing the bin Laden angle as it hampered intelligence gathering. However, the police still sticks to its earlier stand. Says Ashok Chand, dcp (intelligence) of Delhi Police: ``I don`t want to get into that controversy but we stick to our earlier stand that the persons arrested were actually connected with Osama bin Laden.``

Meanwhile, Delhi Police last week announced the arrest of two Pakistani nationals—Sayyed Mohammad and Maqsood Ahmed—belonging to the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen. Two kg of rdx and a hand grenade were recovered from them.

Intelligence agencies are now working overtime to keep a watch on the activities of organisations of Sudanese and Yemenese students. They feel many Islamic mercenaries operating in Kashmir as jehadis are from these two countries. What is worrying the agencies is the fact that such indoctrinated groups are in Indian universities and seats of religious learning, who could be potential recruits for bin Laden`s terrorist outfits like Al Qaeda.

soyasauce:

`Being a strict vegetarian i take offense at your obscene description. I`m never talking to you again.`

now now soyasauce..i would have had the shawarma with fresh green minty lettuce, maroon juicy meetha beetroot, lots of watery crushy cucumber and qarwee moolee but there was no money :(

say, how do you live on vegetables? dont u feel like jumping out of the window sometimes?

Dear Saima.

How justified is such a large presence of Indian security forces in Kashmir? Have they less waste in their back yard to curb than we do?

Looking forward to your answer.

Aisha

Rsaxena

``What in blue hell does any of that have to do with India not being secular?``

Really? If that`s the premise what is unsecular about the Islaimc Republic of Pakistan if you can have your sanscrit philosophy and your charkha and the namaste on the official site etc. Pakistan does not have ‘Assalaualikum Muslim brothers and sisters’ on its main page. Every bloody movie of yours starts with some god in scarce clothes. Including Mirza Ghalib. No Pakistani movie starts with ``lailaha illalah``

You have no idea how low you look abusing people like that. I can see Gandhi lives on, he has been incarnated in you, Saxena luck boy!

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari

This is for your next incarnation as a lizard. I didn`t mean to say that it was my ``inner voice`` that forced me to do so :p



http://www.themodernreligion.com/assault/india-ext.html

How to Exterminate Muslims in India?

Dalit Voice, Editorial, May 16-31. 1999

How to Exterminate Muslims in India?

Dalit Voice, Editorial, May 16-31. 1999

Muslims ruled over Spain from 712 AD to 1492 AD for 780 years, yet today there are no Muslims in Spain though every aspect of Spanish life has a touch of Islam. Spanish language has many Arabic words, its music has an Arabic tone, its culture has more Arabic influence than the European, and proper nouns in Spanish often have the Arabic prefix al. From 1492, when the last bastion of Muslim political strength Grenada fell, the Muslims of Spain were on the decline and its culmination took place after 120 years when the last batch of Muslim die-hards left Spain in 1612. From that year, Islam vanished from the Spanish horizons.

A particular noteworthy point is that during this period of Islamic decline from Spain, the entire civilised world was ruled by Muslims. The Ottoman Turks had conquered Constantinople in 1553, and were ruling the entire Balkan Peninsula, Egypt was ruled by the powerful Mamiukes, Persia was at its political pinnacle under the Abbasi rulers, and India was ruled by the Moghals. Still Islam vanished from Spain and none of these great Muslim armies did anything to protect the Muslims of Spain. How Islam was ejected from Spain had been a subject of keen study by lndia`s Hindu Nazis in the 30s and 40s of this century. They studied this aspect to be copied in India and to counter this possibility, the Muslim leaders also studied this to prevent a repetition of the Spanish methods because Muslims (forming 11.35% of the population as per 1981 census) as lndia`s single largest minorities have become the biggest headache to the upper caste Hindus. But the present-day Muslims are totally ignorant of the history of Islamic decline in Spain and hence of the designs surrounding it.

Through this we intend to shed a little light on this subject so that the thinking section of the Muslims and their sympathisers may do some more research on this subject. As in India, Spanish Muslims had three categories: (i) the descendants of the original Arabs, (ii) descendants of Arab fathers and Spanish mothers and (iii) Christian converts to Islam. Immediately after the fall of Grenada many of the original Arabs to save their lives (not property, as they were not permitted to carry their wealth) left Spain to Tunisia and Morocco; many died on their journey by the attacking Christian hordes. Rest of the original Arabs who opted to live in Spain itself were subsequently branded `foreigners`` (as in India) and destroyers of Spain. The other category of Muslims viz. the descendants of Muslim fathers and Christianmothers and converts from Christianity opted to live in Spain believing in the declaration of King Ferdinand that complete religious freedom would be guaranteed. (in India also, we are told that Muslims enjoy full religious freedom and minority rights). The attacks by Christian on their lives and property during the earlier years was pardoned as a temporary phenomenon.

Compare it with the development that took place in India after the partition (1947). But these attacks on Muslim life and property in Spain did not abate but continued for about 50 years with lesser intensity in a sporadic manner, just as it is happening in India today. In the earlier years, the Indian Muslims resisted and fought back. There were mini-battles in the streets, but gradually there were one-sided attacks and every time Muslims were the losers. Of late, the Hindu police itself is let lose to kill the Muslims in India.

While the organized Christian groups were committing such massacres, Ferdinand`s Govt, in Spain adopted the policy of eliminating Muslims from the services and adopting the following measures:-

Arabic was removed from administration,

schools attached to mosques were debarred from teaching academic and secular subjects like science, history, mathematics and philosophy. Only religious teaching could be imparted,

Lessons in history were faked by which the Muslim rule was dubbed as barbaric. Contribution of Muslims to the development of Spain was avoided,

Muslim houses were made objects of constant searching by police on allegations of arms hoarding and secret meetings,

Original Arab Muslims were projected as enemies of Christians and destroyers of Spain.

Christian converts were persuaded to reconvert to Christianity on the ground that their ancestors were forced to become Muslims and as there is no more coercion, they should revert to Christianity.

Muslims who were from Muslim-Christian parentage were branded as bostards and ridiculed and persuaded to revert to Christianity.

Marriages performed in the Islamic manner were directed to be registered with the judicial officers.

Islamic law was declared illegal. Every method followed in Spain is being experimented in India with better precision and timing.

Thus Muslims in Spain were made objects of ridicule, condemnation and continuous attack. Burning of Muslim houses and shops was encouraged to destroy their economy. Mock ceremonies of reconversion of Muslims to Christianity were held and publicized. In India, Hindu Nazis of all hues-Arya Samaj, Ramakrishna Mission, Vishwa Hindu Parishad etc,. are doing the same. The first two generation of Spanish Muslims adopted passive methods to save their religion by teaching Arabic to their children at home and mosques, and telling them orally about the realities but gradually they lost the zeal. When marriages were ordered to be celebrated only through Govt. agencies, Muslims in early stages performed dual marriages - one with the Govt. authorities and again privately in their homes in the Islamic manner. Gradually the second ceremony was given up as even such a private ceremony was banned.

During this period, Muslim masses gradually fell out of the grips of the Muslim leadership and Muslim elites started flocking to Turkey, Tunisia, Morocco and Egypt where they were received with sympathy. Poor Muslim masses were left uncared for. This is exactly what is happening in India. The richer, English-educated Muslims are getting Brahminised. They have become imitators of upper caste Hindus as they live not in Muslim localities but in Hindu areas. The poor Muslims (they form 95% of the Muslim population) live in ghettos and being better followers of Islam, they are left high and dry. Hence they are getting killed in all anti-Muslim riots.

The seeds sown in the first half of the century in Spain started yielding results in the second half. There was no political leadership, no organization to protect Muslims and enlightened personalities to save the situation. Religious leaders knowing nothing but Islamic` theology tried their best to save the situation, but against heavy propaganda by the Govt. agencies, lures and offers to reconverts, ignorance of Islamic values by the masses and sense of inferiority nurtured in the minds of Muslim masses were too big a force to be undone by the theologians. This needed a political leadership and an organization with arms to counter, but there was none. Those who spoke of invoking the help of Muslim powers of Turkey and Egypt were feared and exposed before the authorities (by the Muslims themselves) to be condemned. Without willing fighters, other Muslim powers could not help. Those who had settled in Turkey and Egypt advised the authorities there to desist`from such a thought as otherwise atrocities on Muslims of Spain would increase. An Ahmed Shah Abdaii was needed but th@`@ was none. And the Muslim masses joined the ``mainstream`` of Spanish life and the mullahs finding no job for their preaching gradually left Spain. And the last batch to leave Spain consisted of the diehard mullahs in 1612

In India also the political leadership of the Muslims became a tail of the Hindu parties led by the upper castes. Only the theological leadership like that of Moulana Hasan Ali Nadvi has tried to maintain the cultural identity of the Indian Muslims.

This ``Spanish experiment`` is being tried with greater energy and efficiency in India. Urdu, which is as Islamic in India as Arabic was in Spain, is being eased out. Muslims are voluntarily holding on to madrasas. English-educated richer Muslims are away from the Muslim masses. We saw this at the Tablighe Jamat International conference held in Bangalore (DV, March 15, 1985). They are not going to Muslim countries, but are taking refuge in their psychological and physical seclusion. Any move to organise them to protect the Muslim life and property is branded as communal. Any Muslim flirting, if not supporting the upper castes, is called a ``nationalist Muslim``. The gulf between the Muslim masses and educated rich Muslims is widening every day. Mass killing of Muslims is considered something natural by the Muslim leadership itself. Whenever it is raised at international Islamic platforms such actions are called interference in the internal affairs of India. Muslims history is deleted from the syllabus. Names of Muslims who died for India are avoided. A great martyr who died for India like Tippu Sultan is unknown to youngsters, whereas the name of Tantia Tope, who fought not for India but for his pension, and Jhansi Laxmi Bai, who fought for her adopted son`s heirship to the throne, is brought on the lips of every Indian. No Muslim gets awards for his contribution to science, medicine, music, art or gallantry. Even those who fought from the ranks of the ruling Congress Party like Moulana Azad, Kidwai, Syed Mahmood, Humayun Kabir etc. do not have a road or extension named after them. But there are half-a-dozen in the names of each upper caste leaders in our towns and cities. History is being re-written. (``Falsifying Indian History``, DV editorial, April 16, 1985). Muslims are killed daily and their houses and shops burnt. The doors of the Army, police and administration are closed to them. And yet Muslim organizations to protect Islam are coming up like mushrooms. Everybody wants to protect Islam and nobody wants to protect Muslims. We are really worried.

A study of the Ruling Class policies reveals that it has great similarity with the one followed by Ferdinand and Isabelle in Spain. The only difference is that the Hindu upper castes are more sharp and sophisticated because of the limitations imposed in the 20th century by the checks exercisable by the United Nations Human Rights Charter and international public opinion.

The systematic and daily anti-Muslim riots resulting in loss of life and property, and above all the sense of fear in the hearts of every Muslim, elimination of the martial Muslims from the Defence, paramilitary and police forces and brahminising of these forces, closing the doors of appointments in Govt. services and public undertakings, Brahminisation of education and mass.media like radio, TV and advertisement, elimination of Urdu as official language from those areas which form the presentday States of Punjab, Haryana, UP, Bihar, parts of Madhya Pradesh, Maharastra, Andhra Pradhesh and Karnataka overnight in 1947-48, gradual closing of Urdu schools are all examples of positive anti-Muslim policies.

On the brahminical psychological warfare side comes the cries of Personal Law amendment, now diluted as common civil code, greatness of the Indian (Hindu) culture, projection of notorious anti-Muslim personalities like ``Mahatma`` Gandhi, B. G. Tilak, Madan Mohan Malaviya, Veer Savarkar, Lala Laipat Rai as heroes of India to belittle the contribution of Muslims for the development and progress of the country, re-writing of Indian history, describing Muslim professions like beef-selling as a sin and glorifying cow protection policies, introduction of mechanical slaughter of animals to throw out of job butchers, declaration of import and export business carried on by Muslims as smuggling are policies through which vulnerable Indian masses are misguided, resulting in a psychological anti-Muslim bias. Muslim electoral constituencies are divided horizontally and vertically so that they don`t have an effective voting power anywhere and thrusting upon them ultra-secular Muslim leaders who have started worshipping Hindu idols and such scenes being systematically televised. Unfortunately Muslim leaders, who are dejected with the Govt., repose much confidence in Hindu masses and hope to secure their help ignoring the fact that the poor Hindu (Dalit) masses are as much victims of such a propaganda. And as on this day only seeds are being sown. The harvest is yet to come. When the harvest reason comes, what will be harvested in India is repetition of Spain, unless the Muslims resort to counter measures soon.

It is high time the Muslim/ intelligentsia rises to the occasion to undo the repetition of the history of Spain in India. Islam has always been protected by the Muslim masses and not by the classes. Rich Muslims, who are not even 5% of the Muslim population (with minor exceptions) are joining the upper caste exploiters. They may talk of Islam but they have forgotten the fellow Muslims. Please note: religion does not protect its followers, but followers protect the religion. Remember if Islam has to be saved in India, Muslims have to be saved.

Saima Shah.

My reference to Jahalat was specifically to Sadna, who had no idea about it let alone proliferate it on a board. Maybe you are mistaken. I don`t support any jihad, except for maybe the one that is within us to battle evil and have good triumph over it. Just wanted to make that clear. And I would like to have someone answer that very question pertaining to those from Afghanistan.

However, those who go to Kashmir form within Pakistan do so because they believe that it is in the realm of debate weather Kashmir is Pakistan`s part or not. I don`t think they are unreasonable. And therefore they I guess feel obliged to participate. Didn`t anyone feel like being in NY when the attacks happened? Didn`t people feel like giving blood? That is what desperation and terror spark, it should be questioned it`s natural. When that happens in little terrifying doses I am sure it is to the height of insanity and helplessness.

Aisha Sarwari

Sadna:

You say, ``How can a person sprinking jahalat know what jahalat means? Aren`t you being unreasonable here?`` So because you don`t know the meaning of Jahalat, you can`t create it in your actions. Even if you are marinate in it all your life? hummm... interesting. No Munni you are the most innocent thing ever...sorry I ever dragged you into a discussion.

Then you go ahead and say, ``btw, why send your countrymen to die in Kashmir when you wish to do it yourself?`` Lets get something clear...I swear I didn`t send anyone to Kashmir, promise! And if you had gone to KG insted of jumping to an IVY league because you were so bright, you may want to go back and read what I said. I said that, ``Believe me, If I had my way when I had discovered about the brutalities and murders you commit in Kashmir I would have run away form home and gone to kill the forces with my own bare hands. If I can feel that way why shouldn`t those people who lost their sons, husbands, wives, daughters, land and livelihood unfairly?`` As you know very well I was unfortunately never in Pakistan that long to assimilate all information in at a go. And ironically there was never really such an antagonism with India there, no one even gave a damn about you lot there. It is only after I came here that I read and it occurred to me what Nazi characteristics you possess.

After you accuse me of sending Kashmirs to blow themselves up, you say I eat an expensive dinner. he he he! You speak like the pimp Jaswant Singh, ready to jump in the lap of America weather help is asked for or not. Don`t jump...stay put. Hold your donkeys. Anyway to answer your accusation: I don`t eat your father`s. My family works hard, I work and I work hard, I study and I study hard, and I love my country and I do what I can from out here. Unfortunately I do not have the resources to do it all, I think being in Pakistan is important for that. Also right now I am just investing in what I can to put inside my intellectual toolbox of life for latter use and construction. I may look dormant now. I will rise when the likes of you will watch. One more thing; It is a good thing that I have had the opportunity to be educated, I am so because my family moved to Pakistan for a better future. And well they got it...and you don`t have to try and make me feel guilty about it. Quit weaving tales and tell me what you want me to apologize for.

``When did you last apply for a visa to Afghanistan where these noble souls often train?``

Look Sadna, on a serious note, cut it out. You must not go unhurt passing from a zone you very will know is not your place. You know what Pakistan faces. I don`t deny that we face severe penetration of these fundoos into our society that was not well guarded from those who opposed it in the first place. You have to know what elements are Pakistani and what are not. If you bulk the fanatics with us all you will be guilty of creating bad art. Do not abuse your freedom. Not only that you make others overdo and overemphasize their innocence in retaliation that is bad for us all. What did India get out of testing the nukes? Agreed that it got Pakistan isolated, but eventually bad policy only procreates hatred and cult mentality against the government who promoted that ideal. It isn`t good for anyone. So stop it. ``LAY AFF`` ;) ok?

You then vomit more, ``the FBI and Indian agencies have already exchanged lists, maps and satellite pictures of training camps. Its hard to tell from up there who is training to fight in Kashmir, and who in Afghanistan.`` This is what my screen-writing teacher would call, X-files meets Mission Kashmir or what a realistic director would call Fiza meets Sadna. Pathetic. Control your overactive imagination. It will be interesting to see your desperate attempts to please the US when they say that have little interest in being impressed with your missiles.

``Its amazing how Pakistanis like you talk of jihadis and holy war as harbingers of `freedom` if they are operating in Kashmir and terrorists and fundamentalists spreading mayhem and anarchy if the same jihadis operate in Karachi.``

Let me reiterate. I will support the indigenous movement of the Kashmiri people because I have observed that it is better to be truthful and say that you are hurt when you are, humans show that by protecting their hurt so that their future generations are protected against it. Regardless of the fact that statistically it is an impossible goal for them to achieve with Nazi forces... who are frustrated perverts away from home ready to hog a group who they believe is the Prime barrier to their freedom.

I also support the people who go to Kashmir to stand by and if necessary fight for those who are dominated, because in a place where no one obeys the law where there is a state of nature one must follow the rules of self preservation, and alliances.

What I know is wrong is the abuse of religion to justify something that can be persuaded on the lines of humanity.

I don`t see this as anyting I desire more or less for Karachi. Also, Don`t be a bigot by saying that I should be equally compassionate with the Afghanis as I am with those who fight in Kashmir. Because I will not allow you to undermine the inhumanity you have shown in Kashmir by that sugesstion. What has happened with Afghanistan is sad, it is evident that we recognize that. We have suffered a gret deal in the process.

However Sadna, don`t be naive, such circumstances are created when hope for talks closes. And we know who has closed those lines. We know who said, `lets discuss trade and not Kashmir`.

And yes you are roaches, had you a question about that? Your mocking clearly show that neir you or your govenemet gave a damn about Kashmiris.

Please don`t make me feel I have wasted far too much time on you. Don`t reply if you don`t have much to contribute towards a a fruitful dialogue. I will understand that you have moved to more digestible pastures to feed the veracious appetite to defame.

Regards,

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari

Dear Sarwari

After you peaceful post 366 you are not like any other group.

Pakistan is safe in the hands of pride of Pakistan like you and ylh.

re friend

``Sigalph wrote that Sarwari is standing for herself.``

Yes I did and I stand by it. Aisha is a very articulate and agile writer who writes what she believes in. I disagree more and more with her as, it seems, sometimes her zeal outruns her reasoning. But none of that takes away from her inherent abilities to write well and defend herself spectacularly.

sarwari 366

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Long live Pakistani Brainwashing Machine

When do we see you killing us ugly roaches?

re asfand

``1) When I call the India consulate in USA an in Pakistan, I am greeted with “Nameste or Namaskar”

2) Indian consulate website greets one with Nameste or Namaskar”

It is a common greeting in India. In case you didn`t know, India`s poet-president Zakir Hussain would regularly use that to greet people at his iftar parties. But of course he was actually Hindu!

``3) Indian student association websites all around USA greets one with Nameste or Namaskar”

I will ask them to remove that offensive greeting and replace it with `Wassup dude`. Happy?

4) “trimurti” is stamped on Indian passport and on Indian currency

It is the governmental symbol of India under which men like Chief Justice AHmadi, Maulana Azad, George Fernandes and the Nawab of Pataudi have proudly done their service. The St. George Cross/St Andrew`s cross emblem is stamped on things British. At some point deep in the mists of time these things may have been communal; today they are national symbols.

5) “chakkr” the wheel is stamped on Indian Flag

It is a spinning wheel representative of those many in yesteryears who made their clother at home. Are you with the manufactured garment sector or something?

``The list is very long. I have listed only few.``

Let me list a few more in that case:

Zakir Hussain and Fakhruddin Ahmad-Presidents

A M Ahmadi-Chief Justice

George Fernandes-Defense Minister

Nawabs of Pataudi and Azharuddin-Cricket captains

A K Azad-Head of the Ballistic Missile Program

Sikander Bakht-Vice President, BJP

Najma Heptullah-President, Rajya Sabha

Omar Abdullah-Deputy Defense Minister

Mufti Mohammad Sayeed- Home Minister

KPS Gill-Police Commissioner and Governor

Rajkumari Amrit Kaur-Ambassador and Governor

Abul Hashim-Speaker, State Assembly

But of course all of those are really closet Hindus and India a Hindu theocracy running around masked as a secular state. Pity then that observant Hindus in many parts of the theocratic country have to sit through the slaughter of cows and enjoyment of beef(I have relished korma and chapli kebabs from Calcutta to Delhi to Amritsar).

Ass fand 364

Finding out the truth that your secular jinnah was a religious fanatic was very hard? There is more for you to learn if you were capable of learning.

That a simple word namaskar that has no religious sense at all makes your ass futt so big was funny.