Caught In Between

Zafar

Perhaps you are right. I have not paid attention to the fact that hurt, physical and emotional, arises out of our responses to Partition may need to be aired more often, on a national, perhaps international level. I just hope it doesn`t become a ``I hurt more`` competition between Pakistan and India.

About Sushma and rude remarks - See, Pakistan or Musharraf cannot be responsible for the Indian`s choice. We can not make the horse actually drink, we can lead it water, but not make it drink. I think if the Indian population can be reached directly, then Mr. Musharraf stands a good chance of making a full case for the Pakistani position, and then must rely on the conscience and understanding of the issue by the ordinary Indian.

Reply Nameless # 532

Nameless

If I read it correctly your post was asking why intolerant understandings of Islam have become more dominant in the subcontinent and around the world? IMHO there are two reasons for this:

1 The traditional elites in Muslim societies have perceived themselves to be under threat from the processes of modernisation as expounded most thoroughly by the West. (To some extent this is true – by way of colonialism and now globalisation, and their economic and social impact on the Muslim World.) One response has been to harden positions, and to try and put forward an alternate vision for the future based on an understanding of Islam. [Iran is an example of this process – once people turned against the Shah and the future that he envisaged for Iran, the other strongly articulated vision for the future was Khomeini’s - supported by Iran`s traditional Bazaris - and that’s what the peole ended up supporting. (There were other visions, but none with the same articulation.)]

2 This future vision is influenced by a variety of bodies in the Muslim World. The Saudis and other Gulf states are extremely conservative – and also extremely influential because of their petrodollars. Money buys the ability to expound one’s ideas – and people often sing the tune someone with money wants to hear in order to access their largesse. Saudi backed religious organisations have been a force for the increase in conversion to their version/vision of Islam. The export of Saudi conservatism has also been fuelled by the unease that many Saudis feel associated with modernity, as put down in point no. 1. If Turkey had been as rich as Saudi, and as much a source for funds, the more tolerant Turkish vision of Islam would be dominating. In fact if India had been rich...

Ferozk probably has a deeper understanding of the issue, and I look forward to reading his post in reply to yours.

Zafar

PS

“ Why is it that muslims from pakistan, bangladesh, india when they come to the west, and attend mosques are suddenly portrayed as lesser muslims (though they follow the quran) than certain otehrs and the people who run these mosques?”

Arab prejudice (it`s always nice to feel intrinsically superior to somebody else, especially if you`re a minority in a society which looks down on what they think of as your culture and your English language skills). Plus the Mullahs imported from the Middle East don`t want anybody else grazing off the same patch.

Reply Rsridhar # 551, 552, Anarayan #?

Rsridahr, Anarayan,

“Re: End of militancy in Kashmir?”

I am glad to hear that terrorist activity is Kashmir is reducing and not at all surprised to see that this is related to the situation in Afghanistan. (So much for an entirely indigenous freedom struggle!)

I am not convinced that this means that jihadis will never return to Kashmir, or that India will have more than a small window of opportunity to try and fix the problem without outside interference. Consider:

1 Once Afghanistan is cleaned up and a moderate Government acceptable to the US is installed there, the Taliban and their ilk will be looking for somewhere to base their operations, or at least hide from the US. Unfortunately, Kashmir may be the place. Let’s hope that the US is wise enough to realise that allowing that is just asking for more of the same sort of trouble in the future – but ARE they wise enough? Is it in their interest to have NO conflict at all with a relatively easily controllable enemy, especially if the impact of that enemy’s action are overwhelmingly felt outside America (as they are today)?

2 Pakistan’s Government has had to do a sharp about turn regarding their support for the Taliban and (increasingly obvious) control of the Taliban. This has caused a lot of unrest in Pakistan – and the only way Musharraf seems to be able to sell it to the Pakistani public is by linking this about turn to an increase in Pakistan’s ability to do something to “gain Kashmir’s freedom” in the future. As it is I believe that Musharraf will have a hard time surviving the aftermath of the coming conflict in Afghanistan (a fatwa has already been issued against him in – of all places – London). If he can’t deliver something on Kashmir as a sop to the Pakistani public’s pride, and I am sorry to say that this something will probably also have to be perceived as disadvantageous to India, he has no chance of surviving at all. I believe that his position is similar to Sadat’s – he’s doing something that’s probably good for his country, but this involves walking away from an ideological commitment on which the country has staked its izzat – unless there’s some sop to this izzat, he (and his supporters) may pay a high personal price. Which should focus their minds when dealing (bargaining?) with the US.

3 The paymaster, the US, needs Pakistan’s cooperation – and this involves at least acceptance from the Pakistani public of US guided activity in Pakistan. So long as Musharraf is their best option for controlling Pakistan, they are going to do what they can to keep from him getting his naak katoed – this will certainly involved SOMETHING in Kashmir. The question India should be asking is: what will prop up Musharraf but yet be something we can live with? How can we get the US to go for that option? Expecting the US to support India fully on Kashmir any time in the near future is unrealistic. Their war against terrorism is entirely self-serving (and how can we complain, so is ours).

4 Factions of the BJP Government benefit from antagonising or humiliating Indian Muslims (this includes the “Muslims should be more Indian, and Indian is defined by us Hindus” brigade), and lose support when this does not happen. Admittedly this faction is marginal in terms of popular support, but what influence would they have on the Indian Government’s ability to achieve a peace in Kashmir which meets both the Kashmiris’ (who are Muslims) and the rest of the country’s political (read emotional/izzat type) needs? (How can we end the conflict and have everybody involved feeling like they didn’t get their naak katoed?) How powerful is this faction in Government? It’s certainly more represented than popular support in the country would warrant.

5 A meander: just as the US Government benefits from having an on-going conflict with an ineffectual enemy, I believe that the Military in Pakistan benefit from having an on-going but contained conflict over Kashmir. What will happen in Pakistan if they DO get Kashmir? I am assuming that India won’t give it up without some sort of a no-war commitment from Pakistan, and probably not without a trade agreement either. What will happen to Pakistan’s Military without a long term enemy? If they don’t have us, who will they try to find to fill this position? (I think this is similar to point no. 4 – what will the BJP do without a non-Hindu “adversary” next door? Won’t that affect their ability to divide and rule in parts of India?)

Zafar

Headline : Movement for Rochistan Gains Momentum

Re: Zafar 527, 555

Akash 542

Thanks for your support guys aisa mauka har roach nahi ayega. Follow the yellow big roach, and then repent not about the roach not taken. Trust in each other and you will never have to sing ``roach roach na raha``.

Loved your magazine selection Zafar but you missed out on the essential reading for the dirty minded roach - ``Playroach`` (of course I read it for the articles).

For the single roach - ``Roach Sathi`` - with multitudes of ``wheatish complexioned`` roaches to choose from.

Sheesh how did I get involved in this.....Truely sorry if I have ruined a perfectly good bigotted (is that the right word)thread for someone out there. Humour! Bah! Who needs it. Please ignore and carry on with bashing/demeaning each others religion/country/parents.

Roachily yours,

Subroto

Mera Rochistan Mahan

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sarwari #541

``And 100,000 of you screaming those questions and various insinuations to the world are equal to one Malleha lodhi speaking to one key policy maker. You are mistaken that people are stupid up there to listen to your negative diplomacy. ``

sarwari, you have seem to have trouble distinguishing between verifiable facts and opinions. Pakistani involvement with the Taliban was talked of by many, including Ahmad Shah Massood and Human Rights Watch. Its not something which can be fixed by shouting `negative diplomacy` or making a smart-ass evasion in the current situation.

No country, much less the US will be stupid enought to rely solely on a clever answer or evasion by Ms. Lodhi while committing itself and its troops to operations in Afghanistan.

btw, yesterday the Afghan Ambassador to the UN, a Northern Alliance representative said `Pakistan is playing a double game, it has not yet recalled the 8000 fighters it has in Afghanistan`

Looks like the Pakistani Army is still hoping to save the Taliban.

Reply RSaxena # 538

“…first you will be informed that it is not secular and that you must either be a RAW agent or on LSD if you claim it is).”

Despite my presentation to Temporal Sahib RAW is being very difficult about processing my pay – iss liye I will select the LSD, though I fear that my own masoom halucinations will be corrupted by the opinions I have seen here on Chowk. Bapu ya Urstruly ka asar pare tho mera kya hoga?

Reply Akash # 542

Re: Gandhian Republic of Roachistan

Akash Mian

I would suggest two things:

1 Give the scattered Chappustani people a home in Roachistan. (Yes! Even Praydent Latif Saaab. Also Begum Volvo.)

2 Invite Sigalphdada to act as Prez – we have Sobroto, and if we get Sigalph in the whole thing will have a nice Bhodro Lok type tone which would be bery bery nishe after all the kattar hangama we are used to on Chowk. :-)

Zafar

PS Actually, I must say that despite some notable exceptions, most interactors on Chowk are usually coherent, polite and a real pleasure to deal with. I’ve been on Sulekha, and while some people there are really interesting, many are bumptious in a particularly repellant fascist manner. So, we should be grateful.

Reply Hobbyty # 544

Hobbyty

“Again – You broke OUR country – Partition…In other words those of us who saw we no longer had a place in an India that India did not have our interests at heart - had no right to go our own way? No right to our world view, no right to our nationalism, no right to a vision other than someone else`s.”

Yaar, I am not talking about rights, or historical truth, or even strategies, but about the emotions we approach each other with. We should try and understand how you feel about us and why. You should try and understand how we feel about you and why.

It would be disastrous if either country based its approach to the other entirely on our own emotional baggage. Recognising each other’s feelings without categorising them as right or wrong is a BIG step towards being able to deal with each other decently. I believe that Pakistan and Bangladesh have largely managed this despite the war of 1971. Why can’t India and Pakistan?

“About the Zari and Sari analogy – India has survived and thrived, it’s Sari has not been torn to shreds because Pakistan exists. Yes, it’s an excellent piece of rhetorical exuberance, but it does seem to hold up to facts. The existence of Bangladesh has not torn the Indian Sari to shreds, has it?”

Hobbyty, I’m talking about the Indian emotional reaction to the suggestion of another Partition. Just something you should be aware of when you talk to us about it. (I’m not saying that you shouldn’t talk about it – but these are our feelings, and our fears, and if you should address them as well if you want a fair hearing.)

“I await your suggestion as to what you lot will do to make sure that Musharraf wins Indian hearts and minds instead of poking them in the eye.”

“My first suggestion is that Indians should examine the ideas about partition, Pakistan and Islam. You simply cannot begin from the proposition that Pakistan is illegitimate, that’s suicide, it’s unreasonable, it’s hateful.”

Hobbyty – I haven’t suggested that at all. Long Live Pakistan! (ok,. now will you be Happyty?) But if you want to win our hearts and minds you’ll have to do more than preach “re-examine your ideas, re-examine your ideas”. How about YOU re-examine YOUR ideas about Partition? How attractive do you think that sounds to most Pakistanis?

“My second suggestion is That Mr. Musharraf convey truthfully and fully, Pakistani positions to Indian media. Mr. Musharraf must never let Vajpayee, Advani or Jaswant set the agenda for the understanding of Pakistan in India.”

Hearts and minds, baby, hearts and minds!!!!

“My Third suggestion would be to tell Mr. Musharraf to repay a kind word three fold and an a unkind three fold. “

Doesn’t this trap Musharraf into a reactive rather than a proactive position. Mathlab if Sushma Swaraj wants to sabotage talks all she has to do is start being rude to Mushy and voila, three rude words back….and so on, and so forth.

“I completely agree that we as Muslims have a part to play I educating persons that there are any number of Islams. Yet this will not save us. Not until we are organized in such a way that bigotry can be challeneged in courts. This will bring a change in media perceptions. It’s important here to note that we are talking about Americans who are Muslims. This will effect all Muslims. See, I think of the U.S. as being part of the Ummah, especially since it is not hostile to that idea.”

This clarifies a lot – I think I see where you’re coming from.

Zafar

``Pakistan First - And Forever

JAWED JABBAR

During one of the most critical periods of our history, on 27th September 2001 which is being observed as ``National Solidarity Day``, the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis, at home and overseas, will reaffirm their unshakeable commitment to putting ``Pakistan First``.

Irrespective of whether the present Government directly sponsors public events or media initiatives such as special features in newspapers in which this article too is likely to be published or whether the elected representatives of the people at union, tehsil and district levels are able to arrange authentically participative events, the vast majority of our people will identify with the concept of National Solidarity Day.

They will do so for several reasons.

First: because for the people of our country, now more than ever, Pakistan does come first - and foremost. It shapes our sense of self, it gives us a part of the planet that we can call our very own. We may migrate, temporarily or permanently, or we may despair at our condition even as we stay on in our own country. Whether we remain entrapped in poverty or whether we roam free in luxury, we know for certain that this is the only place on earth today where the different strands of our consciousness can come together like in no other corner of the earth. Our own identity, our family, our faith, our geography, our cities, towns and villages, our friends, our work, our music, our sports`, our poetry, our culture and our dreams can fuse together and make us feel good deep down about ourselves only on this priceless strip of earth. There is just no other choice for us except to say that Pakistan comes first because Pakistan is the very ground we stand upon.

Second: A day of solidarity is a day of coming together, a celebration of fraternity. We do have two other days on which a similar convergence takes place: 14 August and 23 March. But 27 September acquires a special meaning because of the events on, and since 11th September. After the tragic loss of lives in New York and Washington D.C. in which people from across the world perished, the decision by President Musharraf to lend support to the US-led attack on terrorism is being given a distorted meaning by some. The hysteria being whipped up by the western media about Osama Bin Laden justifiably angers Muslims because the aim is perceived to be to demonise Islam and its followers.

On the other hand, a distortion has also been propagated to the effect that the support offered by the Government of Pakistan is equal to offering a blank cheque to the Americans to wage war against a fellow Muslim country like Afghanistan. As official statements have clarified in recent days, there is no question whatsoever of Pakistan becoming a party to an indiscriminate, unjust assault upon its neighbour, Pakistanis are wary about being exploited for ulterior aims. Neither the Government nor the people will allow that to happen.

Expressing solidarity on a day other than the traditional solidarity days of 14 August and 23 March relates our deep-rooted pride in being Pakistani, to a new and dangerous twist that has occurred in the world`s history. It renews our confidence in our capacity to overcome internal divisions and to focus on shared affinities.

Therefore, 27 September becomes an opportunity to demonstrate that the people of Pakistan are capable of making a distinction between truth and falsehood, between substance and perception.

For us, coming together this Thursday has an additional significance because we are already weary of several years of divisive polemics, violent sectarianism, deteriorated law and order, bad governance, a stalled economy and prolonged despair. The present Government`s efforts to alleviate these problems deserve support, regardless of our political views.

Third: the day of solidarity enables Pakistanis to reiterate that they are a balanced and moderate people. We derive our moderation from the value of balance that is enshrined within Islam. At several points in the Holy Quran, balance is identified as a foundational principle of the universe itself and balance is urged as the value most preferred in practice. We are enjoined to apply to our daily life the intrinsic symmetry of Nature. It is from this reality and ideal of balance that our people gain our basic moderation, our tolerance, our respect for those who are different from ourselves, Pakistanis of other faiths share these traits of moderation.

Fourth: On 27 September, there is a vital opportunity to show that the forces of rational, knowledge-based, progressive thought in Pakistan far outnumber the elements that exploit emotion and ignorance to perpetuate repression and stagnation.

As past and current history testify, across the world and in Pakistan, it is small numbers of extremists that are better organised and more able to draw the attention of the news media, thus artificially magnifying the scale of their existence. Here is the chance for the silent majority to become the vocal and visible majority. A great responsibility rests with the educated and professional classes to make a strong, symbolic and substantive statement.

There may not be millions of people on the streets or in meetings on 27th September to reflect the breath and the depth of the nation`s resolve to put ``Pakistan First``. We are not in the habit of turning out in large numbers to express the fact that we are for some cause. Some of us are far more ready to show our sentiments on the streets when we are against something or someone. While this is generally true of many other countries as well, we in Pakistan tend to be more shy or reluctant than the people of other countries when it comes to making a public and spontaneous show of supporting a cause or a person - unless, of course, it is in a cricket match against India!

This is partly because our leaders have betrayed the public trust too often. It is also because there has been a regrettable practice of past Governments to stage-manage demonstrations of support in their own favour. There is thus a cynical presumption that if we march in favour of a policy or a position which is also the official policy, then it is a contrived and artificial show.

But 27 September is truly a day for all the people of Pakistan to come together, transcending this or that Government`s aims. As a family, as a nation, as a country that continues to suffer grievously from terrorism, as a people that condemn the State terrorism practised by Israel and supported by its allies in Palestine, and by India on the people of Kashmir, as those who remain aware of the genocides and brutalities committed in history upon the indigenous peoples of North and South America, of Africa, of Australia and of Asia.

We grieve for them as much as we grieve for the victims of 11 September.

Now in 2001, at a time of critical choices for Pakistan, we will prove that we can use calm, sober analysis to act in the best interests of our nation and our State, that we shall always put ``Pakistan First - and forever``.

Copyright 2001 Business Recorder (http://www.brecorder.com)

Re: End of militancy in Kashmir?

There goes jehad in Kashmir. This may be the best thing happening for India. This may also be the best time to start a political process in that state. Needless to say, Pak will be entangled in this mess for a long time to come, time enough for India to solve the Kashmir problem (by talking to the Kashmiris). As narayan said, Pak after all does not even have a ``locus standi`` in the matter. By opposing the Taliban (they had no choice, did they?), they have forsaken the moral support that they said they were giving the Jehadists. Now is the best time for India to solve this problem without Pakstan.

Read the following from Deccan Herald. URL: http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/sep24/up10.htm

``Militants leaving J and K in panic

New Delhi, Sep 24 (UNI)

Panicked by the US resolve to demolish all terrorist networks, Pakistan has asked 3,000 to 4,000 militants presently operating in Jammu and Kashmir to move to Afghanistan to fight shoulder-to-shoulder with the Taliban militia, Senior Defence officials confirmed today.

Pakistan has sent an express advisory to the commanders of various militant groups holed up in the valley ``to go to Afghanistan to join the Taliban,`` according to intercepted messages for militant leaders from across the border.

There are indications that militants are moving towards the Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir (POK) from where they would be escorted by Pakistani Rangers to Afghanistan for fighting against the US.

This new development in the 13-year old militancy in Kashmir is the result of tremendous US pressure on Pakistan to abandon terrorism and align with the international community to fight the scourge.

There has been certain lowering down of incidents of violence in Kashmir since the September 11 terrorist attacks on the US, the officials admitted.``

Sridhar

Re: Satinder Bhindra on C.N.N

Guys,

Just watched Satinder Bhindra on C.N.N. He (as well as Nirupama Rao, the GOI spokesperson) talked about the hijacking of Air India plane to Kandahar by HUM. Efforts are already well on way by the GOI revealing the Kashmiri terrorist links to Al Quada and OBL. Pak can kiss the jehad in Kashmir goodbye.

Sridhar

http://www.msnbc.com/news/634197.asp?pne=msn

PAKISTANI INVOLVEMENT

Of the 19 camps said to be run by Pakistani fundamentalists, the memo named three militant groups active near Kabul. It did not identify who ran the other camps. Several Pakistani groups have mobilized students at religious schools to go and fight in Afghanistan.



The memo said six Pakistanis had senior posts in the Taliban military and identified a former royal palace in southwestern Kabul as “headquarters of the commander-in-chief of the Pakistani forces in Afghanistan.”

It said a Pakistani AWACS reconnaissance plane, of the type originally provided by the United States to monitor Soviet and Afghan air activity during the 1980s war, was based at Mazar-i-Sharif in northern Afghanistan to survey the borders with Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan.



OK, its coming out in bits and pieces, but it is coming out. Taliban is fully controlled by the Pakistanis.

I wouldn`t be surprised if the ``reclusive`` Mullah Omar turned out to be Hamid Gul !!!

Re: Pakistan`s complicity

Pakistan is not just caught ``in between`` but is actually hanging in midair like the legendary ``trishanku``. All trails to OBL either pass through Pak or end there. If USA is tolerating Mushy, it is only because Pak is vital to get at OBL.

The following is from TOI. URL: http://www.timesofindia.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=319894747.

``Reluctant jihad recruits deported

SHAIK AHMED ALI

TIMES NEWS NETWORK

YDERABAD: Indians employed in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA) who refuse to work for jihadi groups in Afghanistan and other countries are deported to India at the behest of Pakistanis.

For this reason, for most Indians, especially labourers, working in the KSA along with Pakistanis is a nightmare. Several Hyderabadis who worked in the Gulf countries in recent years said Pakistanis play a major role in persuading Indian youth to join terrorist outfits.Those who acquiesce get better treatment while those who refuse are sacked and deported to India.

According to a few men who went through such an experience, the identification of potential recruits for the jihad is carried out by Pakistani nationals in many cases. After potential recruits are identified, the Pakistanis make an open offer. First they are told about the need for a jihad and about the noble role the person could play in its cause.

“They pressurise so much that some youth fall for it. Apart from the religious sentiments, the money offered for working for jihadi groups is a major factor,’’ said Ihtesham-ul-Haq (all names changed), a resident of Tadbund.. Ihtesham, who has worked in Riyadh since 1998, was among those who were sacked when he refused to join or support such activities.

“I was caught by the mutavvas on charges of keeping some videotapes. I was taken to a police station where my kafeel, who had my passport and other documents, refused to identify me. The authorities then deported me as an illegal alien,”he said. Syed Munawawar, who was deported from Jeddah for ‘not attending prayers’, said most of the kafeels were under the influence of Pakistanis belonging to jihadi outfits.``

Sridhar

Dost

``Refusal to acknowledge Kashmir as a dispute is ridiculous, a denial of reality.``

…..when did I do that?

Take a deep breath! I did not say that you said this. I pointed out the positions a majority of Indians on these boards take.

``If the freedom struggle, really does transform itself, to terrorism within India, not just

Kashmir, what might be the implication?``

…..Why would the ``freedom struggle`` transform into terrorism within India? Are you suggesting that India`s muslims will turn to terrorism in support of Kashmiri secessionists? When did you join the RSS? :-)”

We need more humor on these boards. Perhaps you did not follow the exchange of posts between Zafar, Narain and myself. No, I’m not suggesting that Indian Muslims will turn to terrorism to support the Kashmiri.

could you please translate?….in English, if not in Hindi/Urdu?

Translation: A history of India is the product of a lot of different histories of India. Those histories do not conform to any one particular philosophical or ideological view history.

“I believe that Islam is a great source of strength and code of ethics to the faithful. I also have great admiration for Islam`s message of brotherhood, albeit confined to Muslims, and social justice.” Which only means you need to study more about Islam. If you are satisfied with a shallow and pedestrian understanding, that’s up to you.

“Other than that, I think that religion is almost always an accident of birth [unless one believes in the Hindu philosophy of Karma!!] and it is asinine to take pride in anything that one merely inherited [this doesn`t of course apply to someone who has converted to another religion after a comparative study of religions].” Whether one is born into or converted, study and the search for meaning, should, will, lead us to efforts to deepen our understanding. That is not asinine, is it?

“But I do believe that Islam, like all religions, needs to evolve.``

Islam is the word of God, to the Muslim. It does not change. However; our knowledge and understanding, interpretation of the word of God changes, evolves.

``From a non-muslim point of view, the concepts of blasphemy, apostasy and kafir and associated punishments have no place in today`s societies and need to be rejected forthwith. To take a parallel case, would you say that the millions of black Americans who have become Muslims and thereby apostate to Christianity should be killed? Or that anyone who says that Jesus is not the son of God should be executed for blasphemy? And if not, why not? A non-convoluted response would be much appreciated.”

Such little knowledge and such strong opinions. So concepts within Islam or those you believe to be in Islam are to be rejected – well reject them. Why must you impose your notions on those who do not share the depth of your education? I mean after all, Blasphemy, Apostasy, non-believer, infidel – these are Islamic or arabic words, not English, and this post is written in Greek (to you)

“And I have no patience for political Islam as it divides the world between ``us`` and ``them``. I believe that religion should not be the basis of group identities that should be based on shared language, geography, culture, history, etc”.

Yes, so unlike your inclusive self, with your “no place in today’s society” and “to be rejected forthwith” and “no patience for” and “I believe religion should not be the basis…” You certainly don`t sound like a person who discriminates between ``us`` and ``them``

``Pakistan and India, for good or bad, for the foreseeable future, seem connected at the hip. In order for our peoples to progress as nation States, we need to restructure the vocabulary of our conflicts, to a more civil level.

Fully agree. In fact, I believe we are more than connected and that we are the same but I respect the right of Pakistanis to think and believe otherwise.”

Well, yes, I believe you have made that and your notions of respect, quite clear.