Caught In Between

Re: An Indian pilot`s achievement

LCA pilot wins international accolades. Read the article at `` http://203.199.93.7/articleshow.asp?art_id=1541783867``.

Excerpts:

1. ``Wing Commander Rajiv Kothiyal, who was the first man to fly the technology demonstrator (TD-1) of India`s fighter plane - the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), has been awarded the Iven C. Kincheloe trophy for best professional achievement for the year by the Society of Experimental Test Pilots (SETP), headquartered at Lancaster, California, USA.``

2. ``IAF officials said this is the first time in the history of Indian aviation that an Indian test pilot has been given the award. Kothiyal now joins a select band of test pilots which includes Neil Armstrong, the first man to kiss the Moon first, and Chuckyeager, the first man to break the sound barrier.``.

I could not help but smile when i read Chuck Yeager`s name. I know ylh often dreams about this person. Ylh may not the fact that chuck yeager is in the company of ace pilots that now includes an Indian.

Sridhar

Re: Musharraf`s dilemma.

This article speaks of tough choices that the dictator has had to make in the past few weeks. The Url:

``http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=97840``.

Excerpts:

``Pakistan has always maintained that it gives Kashmir`s ``freedom fighters`` – who include associates of Mr bin Laden – moral support only; the world has always, with good reason, believed the support went much further. The struggle to ``liberate`` the Muslim-majority state of Kashmir, generations of Pakistanis have been told by their rulers, is at the heart of Pakistan`s identity. Now President Musharraf must execute a U-turn and tell his people that no, that was all rubbish, actually these are terrorists just like the scoundrels who killed all those innocent people in New York and Washington.

That`s what the West wants him to do. But if the general`s utterances have been getting more mouse-like these days, it is because that is one thing he cannot bring himself to say – for at least three reasons. One, he himself was, as Indians like to say, the ``architect of Kargil``, the mountain war of 1999 that was Pakistan`s last, doomed attempt to prise Kashmir away from India. Two, he cannot do it because when he makes a gesture in that direction mass murder occurs in Srinagar – distant thunder warning of terrible storms at home if he pushes his luck. And three, in his new guise as the West`s obedient servant, he cannot betray the ``freedom fighters`` of Kashmir because their comrades are deeply insinuated in high positions in every important institution of the Pakistani state.``.

It is funny that, as i was watching BBC`s Newsnight, Abdus Sattar who was being interviewes is now telling the world that USA should share the evidence of OBL`s crime with the Taliban. What kind of game is Pak playing here. Probably all for public consumption after selling out to the western interests. If Pakistan has truely changed (a miracle indeed!)and given up its pro-Taliban policies and given up on supporting militant madrasas and camps, it is a very good development and good news for India. Looks like US and its allies will ensure safety of nuclear installations and weapons, ensure that a stable democratic govt replaces Musharraf. It will be in US interest to ensure that such a govt is also friendly to India. If that happens, we may still see prosperity in the subcontinent. Can this happen or am i just daydreaming?

Sridhar

Re: Mushy`s double game

The guardian talks about Musharraf`s double game and warns Tony Blair to be careful in dealing with him.

The URL: ``

http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,563654,00.html.

Excerpts:

``After nearly 40 people were killed in Srinagar this week, a furious India demanded immediate action against the Pakistan-based group deemed responsible. This reasonable request met with familiar obfuscation in Islamabad. For his pains so far in this crisis, Gen Musharraf has picked up a likely $600m in US aid, a lifting of nuclear weapons-related sanctions, extended IMF credit and debt relief, and now a big diplomatic bouquet from Britain. But he is still playing a double game. Mr Blair should beware of too warm an embrace.``.

Sridhar

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RSaxena:

Reports have been leaked linking Sarwari to unsavory activities in the PMO`s office (cigar cases were found there).

Dude, now you`ve gone and done it. AnNy`s going to kick your butt too.

Subroto

``Yeh humara nara hai,

Ki har ghar may roach lana hai.``

soree to put a damper on the entire joyous proceedings - magar - lagta hai aapko COMBAT ya PifPaf : ) ka ata-pataa nahin hai !!

aicha

Re: Jaswant`s visit

Guys,

Just saw Jaswant Singh with Defense secretary Rumsford taking questions. Rumsford mentioned combined fight against terrorism with help of free countries like India.

In another story, Mushy is said to have convinced the muslim clerics that helping USA is the best thing to do to avoid India and Israel from exploiting the situation. The Jewish-hindu plot is said to have convinced the clerics. Talk about hatred.

Sridhar

Re: Jaswant`s press conference in front of White House? or may be in Pentagon lawns

Guys,

Just saw Jaswant Singh on C-Span.Missed the early part of the interview. He is said to have carried a strong letter from ABV. He stated categorically that India`s patience is running out. This was following the reports of a suicide attack on J & K assembly early on today. Jaish-e-Mohammed has claimed responsibility. J.S said that this group`s spokesman was speaking from Pakistan and the person responsible for attack was an Arab (i thought that is what he said though i may have gotten the word Arab wrong). Pakistan was directly implicated. He also said that President of USA has assured him and India that fight against terrorism will be global and not limited to just Al-Qaida. He said US recognises that Kashmiri terrorists are no different from the rest. This may not be tonic to Pakistani rulers.

Sridhar

Re: The noose around Pakistani rulers tightens further

It is high time India took a proactive action. NO time is better than the present one. If it gets a nod from Uncle Sam, we may see Indian Air Force striking agains terrorist camps in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. I feel both happy and sad. Happy that at last GOI is getting its acts together and sad because Pak rulers are a bunch of morons who do not seem to learn anything from history. The course they have set themselves and Pak on will only lead to another Bangladesh being enacted in Pakistan.

My dear Pakistani Chowkiwallahs. Read and weep what is in store for your country. The following from TOI. URL:

``http://www.timesofindia.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=1145663514``

``India warns Pak: Our patience is limited



CHIDANAND RAJGHATTA

TIMES NEWS NETWORK



ASHINGTON: Conveying India`s anguish and outrage about the latest terrorist attack in Kashmir to the United States in very strong terms, Prime Minister Vajpayee on Monday cautioned Pakistan that ``there is a limit to the patience of the people of India.``

The warning is contained in an extraordinary letter the Prime Minister has written to President George Bush that was delivered this afternoon by External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh personally to the US President. The tone of the letter is so grave that Bush himself dropped in during a 75-minute meeting Singh had at the White House with National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice at the White House.

The US President stayed for 40 minutes discussing the latest developments relating to terrorism with Singh. Emerging grim-faced from the meeting, Singh said he had a ``very candid and productive`` discussion which left him with no doubt that the United States would address the issue of terrorism everywhere and not just that which affected America.

In his letter to President Bush, Prime Minister Vajpayee minced no words in directly blaming Pakistan for the latest massacre in the Kashmir legislature.

``There has been understandable anger in the country at this wanton act of violence….Incidents of this kind raise questions for our security which, as a democratically elected leader of India, I have to address in our supreme national interest,`` he Vajpayee wrote.

``Pakistan must understand that there is a limit to the patience of the people of India,`` he added.

By emphasising his position as the elected leader of India and pointing out that the terrorists had attacked the ``state parliament,`` Vajpayee appeared to make clear his misgivings about Washington allying itself so readily with the military ruler of Pakistan.

The Prime Minister said that a Pakistan-based organisation, Jaish-e Mohamed, had claimed responsibility for the attack and had even named a Pakistani national based in Pakistan as one of the suicide bombers involved. Yet the president of Pakistan was telling the world through television interviews that Pakistan has no terrorist groups operating from its territory.

Following Vajpayee`s letter, which he ended by saying he had asked his External Affairs Minister ``to convey to you more fully our sentiments in this regard,`` Jaswant Singh is understood to have told the administration about the rising public anger at home at the wanton acts of terrorism being promoted by a state that has been patently militaristic towards India.

Despite the grave atmosphere that surrounded the meeting, Indian officials said they found the US fully understanding about New Delhi`s concerns.

Vajpayee in fact prefaced what was virtually a warning to Pakistan conveyed through the United States. that India understood Washington ``discharging your core responsibility for the interest and security of the American people.`` But India has its own concerns that could not be ignored.

``We are with you and do not wish to overload the agenda in any way. However, incidents of this kind raise questions for our security``, Vajpayee wrote.

In effect, New Delhi appears to be preparing ground for retaliating against Pakistan-sponsored terrorism, particularly since the United Nations too has signaled that it expects all member countries to crack down on terrorism from its home soil or face action.

Jaswant Singh in fact gave some hint of what could be in store by saying that terrorism directed against India was India own problem and it would handle it itself.

India`s strong response came on a day when the US media revealed that the money trail associated with the terrorist attack on America led to Pakistan. A delegation of US Congressmen also blamed Pakistan for terrorists attacks on Americans.``

Sridhar

Fellow Roaches,

To say that I am thrilled at such a response to the call for Roachistan is an understatement. To see the Movement for Roach-storation of Democracy (MRD) take firm root and the outpouring of roach pride brings tears even to my cynical eyes. We can only hope we can fulfill our promise of roach, kapda aur makan.

Yeh humara nara hai,

Ki har ghar may roach lana hai.

Mere hum roachon hume banana khana hai (with apologies to Rajiv Roach)

Jai Roachistan.

re Rsaxena

Why do you think Speaker Sarwari was in the empty PMO(We don`t have a PM yet, right?)? Doesn`t she realize the separation of powers bit?

Re: Sigalph

Reports have been leaked linking Sarwari to unsavory activities in the PMO`s office (cigar cases were found there).

T Ahmedsahib sorry for rewrite. Read your leter vary good stuf.

No great ohner to general sahib to interview report maker cnn ms. Amaopore. She is not good repoter ok. She is kharb dekhaneko. she is not good look, no good eglish no figer.Even with lipstick no good look, skin not white, must be hybrid no pure white woman i think no sex appeal.

Even indian tv report lady i know dark (they color white)still sex appeal, same thing big about BB.

i know its bad , but looks are everything in real life right.Good skin color and good look take you up. Its human.I am handsome even english(real white not hybrid deshis )gentlman and ladies said. I think i am not too smart, beter look got me luxary job. people like to be served even food by good look.That is my mental thinking about her. i think no husband to her- no shadi.

Reacton response:Tahmed321(refaranse no.613)

Respected Ahmed Sahib (we are same name-good) sir,

Thanks you very much.thank u.

I am vary vary happy for reading stuff i wrie ok.

I think your self and mr. Sridhar ( he is in states) only only rection response. I good and happy for that.(I respect good ppl even hindu, ok, madani no problom, we here deal with highclass ppl, dark whte all types and all good.) Please write if you are in Pakistan or STATES (uk also ok). I am worred about future of me my children ok. We need discuss about mony ok, share bazzar etc.stok is dawn ,but chance to make mony. what is your mental thinking same as me?about stok.Ahmedsahib i plan to take IT traing 65,000RS over 18 months.Is it all worth? Some say IT is down,STATES some say temp time.I donot want to work IT pakistan ( i make more here - good tips many times in dollars). I want to go STATES for CHILDREN.I buy dollras cash and keep it, no bank ok, I make good over years.I lost mony in Adamji Insurace,stok, but holding ok. I think best is hold dollars as no chance to lost mony correct.What ur mental think about this stuf?

Any way most time no work look and study internet.

like defense journal every month and all urdu newspaper and some english,hindu and usa also. Any paki or hindu from STATES advise about iT training. This institate has many STATES educated teachers, its private with 21 computers. ok. welcome thinkig hindu or muslim , no problom ok. Good night everybody

Sigalph 598.

``Aisha Sarwari : Speaker of the House`` I am honored. Thank you.

And with that I would like to move the motion to have Rsaxena as minister of Health and Sanitation.

I have been informed of his vast personal experience in it.

Ahmed madani #608 you one funny chap, man. now we pakis get so much wur-ld attention, and for what? for creating mess in afghanistan to begin with. for sitting at right place at right time.

``better lucky than smart, ha! ha!`` sez pervaiz musharaff over hotline to vajpayee. bush thinks ``hmmm...good line, must use with that bearded mullah Al Gore when I see him``.

and all this attention, oh good lord...christia amanpour wants to hear musharaff`s deep thoughts...bush calls saying he just wanted to say hi to his good buddy...clinton wants to know if the missus would like to go out for a spin...

Top Ten Ways To Look Like A CNN Correspondent

Friday Times

Ayeda

10. Pretend to be in grave danger while reporting from the roof of the Marriott, Islamabad

9. Never learn how to pronounce “Pakistan”

8. Get a US marine escort to help you do your groceries

7. Bond with the locals by hanging out at Muddy’s Cafe

6. Carry big black cameras with CNN stickers pasted all over them

5. Always wear a safari jacket (esp. when in big cities)

4. Wear a CNN t-shirt

3. Wear a CNN hat

2. Wear CNN underwear

1. Hunt for the biggest lunatics to put on air

Asian tourism suffers as attack gloom spreads

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



ASIAN-read INDIA!



INTAN, Indonesia: Resort manager Peter Ho watched nervously as news broadcasters talked about Americans being threatened in the Indonesia city of Solo.

To him and other resort managers on this Indonesian island, such news can mean lost business, especially since many tourists are already nervous about travelling after the US hijack attacks that have been blamed on Islamic militants.

So far there are no cancellations at Ho`s resort, Mana Mana Beach Club, only an hour by boat from peaceful Singapore.

And with Solo about 1,100 km away in central Java, the fury of Islamic hardliners threatening to forcibly expel US citizens if Washington strikes Afghanistan looks remote.

``But people don`t make a distinction between Solo and the rest of Indonesia,`` he said, pausing before adding, ``you have to remember Indonesia is a Muslim country.``

Across Asia, the threat of rising Islamic militancy is casting a shadow over some of the world`s most tranquil getaways, threatening to compound a slowdown in travel around the region.

The other deterrent for visitors is a plain fear of flying in the wake of the September 11 attacks.

Tour operators hope Washington avoids a heavy-handed retaliation that could stir up religious unrest and make a fragile situation even worse.

So far, the impact of the US attacks has been mixed for Asia`s tourism industry, a top source of foreign exchange for many countries and a key driver for recession-hit industries in the region such as retailing.

In Indonesia`s holiday island of Bali, many operators hope visitors from other Asian countries, especially Japan, can plug a hole left by dwindling numbers of Americans and Europeans.

``There has been a drop in the American and European market and we already had a significant number of cancellations,`` I Gde Pitana, head of Bali`s tourist board, said.

``But American tourists only represent a small number of total tourists coming to Bali,`` he said, adding ``we`re confident that we can plug the drop by enticing more of Japanese tourists coming here, so our focus now is Bali for Asia.``

Washington said that it was concerned about inadequate protection for Americans in Indonesia, the world`s biggest Muslim nation, after 4,000 protesters condemned the US on Friday, some threatening to round up Americans from hotels and expel them.

In Malaysia, a spokeswoman at a large hotel and resort group that operates in the palm-lined islands of Langkawi and Penang on Malaysia`s west coast reported some cancellations among European and US tourists.

``But it`s not substantial. We haven`t felt the impact,`` she said. Still, air travel in Malaysia has slowed. Malaysia Airports, a national operator, said that it had seen a ``significant drop`` in passenger volumes this month.

Malaysia tourism officials faced a public relations nightmare after Abu Sayyaf Islamic rebels based in neighbouring Philippines took 21 hostages, mostly foreigners, from a diving resort on Sipadan island in the eastern Sabah region in April last year.

Navy boats now patrol the area after the Abu Sayyaf, which Washington has linked to Saudi-born fugitive Osama Bin Laden, took more hostages from Pandanan island in September last year and from Palawan in the Philippines last May.

Many hostages have been released, mostly after payment of ransom, but others have been beheaded and a group of US and Filipino hostages have been held for four months.

Despite this, and last month`s arrest of 10 Malaysians linked to a militant Islamic group accused of inciting religious violence, tourist numbers had been swelling in Malaysia before the attacks on the US.

Before September, Malaysia had seen on average about a million tourists a month so far this year, up from around 700,000 last year, with more than half from Asian countries, the government`s tourism minister was recently quoted as saying.

But the outlook now for Malaysia`s tourism, the country`s second biggest source of foreign exchange, is uncertain, and some operators are bracing for a slump in the December holiday period.

Visitors to Thailand, one of the world`s most popular tourist spots, have been cancelling trips and the government says the outlook for the key industry is likely to get worse.

The state Tourism Authority of Thailand has estimated the number of visitors in the last quarter of this year - normally the peak season - could drop by 30 per cent compared to 2000.

``I think European tourists are afraid... so they have cancelled their travelling plans,`` said the managing director of the River Side Bangkok hotel, Apichart Patcharapinyopong.

In Vietnam, the shockwaves have been worst at the top end of the market, which has suffered a slew of cancellations from individual travellers, tour groups and conference organisers.

But Vietnamese tourism officials say they hope to help the key revenue earner weather the storm by promoting the country as a safer destination than some regional rivals because tourists do not have to worry about large and potentially restive Muslim groups.

Even Nepal`s tourism industry, a mainstay of the Himalayan kingdom`s impoverished economy, has been hit hard, with more than 50 per cent of hotel bookings for the peak September-November tourist season cancelled since the attacks.

``We are even receiving cancellations for March and April next year,`` said Hotel Association Nepal chief, Narendra Bajracharya.

India`s proximity to a potential theatre of conflict in Afghanistan following the strikes on the US has also hurt its tourism industry, officials say.

A little over 2.6 million foreigners, many of them hardy budget travellers and backpackers, visited the country last year.

``New bookings are not coming in, and people abroad are looking at how developments shape up,`` said Murali Dhar, president of the Indian Association of Tour Operators and a retired army major.

``But I personally feel there will be no war, and even if a conflict takes place India will not be that much affected,`` he added.

In Hong Kong, travel agents said last week as many as 6,000 people in the travel industry could lose their jobs after a wave of cancelled bookings, mostly by people too frightened to fly.

``There are over 20,000 staff employed by travel agents in Hong Kong. Information I collect from my colleagues is that 20-30 per cent may be facing layoffs if the situation remains as it is for another six months,`` Ronnie Yuen, chairman of the Travel Industry Council, told a news conference.

Some hotels, according to the Hong Kong Hotels Association, saw occupancy shrivel to only 50 per cent after the attacks when they would usually expected to fill 80 per cent of their rooms.

The Hong Kong Tourism Board said that it now expected no growth in tourist arrivals this year. It had earlier forecast arrivals would grow by nearly 8 per cent from last year.

In China, where tourism is a major source of foreign exchange, companies have already seen a slowdown in visitors from the US and other countries and are expecting things to get worse.

``There are cancellations every day. Some groups which originally had dozens of people turn out to only have a few people coming to China,`` said an official of state-owned China International Travel Service.

``So far, about 2,000 of our customers from North America have cancelled their trips to China,`` he said.

Xinjiang Airlines, based in the restive northwest Xinjiang region, which is home to many ethnic Uighur Muslims, has stepped up security on some international flights.

( REUTERS )

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re appointments

COntinued as per Gazette Extraordinary of the Republic of Roachistan :

AnNy: Ministry of Food, Agriculture, and Spices

Romair: State Minister for (dis)Information, Broadcasting, and Propaganda

(Thanks AnNy and bong_dong)

Now I need to find a Prime Minister!

Washington`s deal with the devil(Pakistan)





Wednesday, September 26, 2001 – Page A12

Winston Churchill was a lifelong anti-Communist who never had a good thing to say about the Soviet Union -- until 1941. When the Soviets joined the war against Nazi Germany, he was suddenly full of praise for the brave Soviet people and their wise leader, Joseph Stalin. Churchill was unapologetic. ``If Hitler invaded Hell, I would find something favourable to say about the Devil.``

The United States finds itself in similar spot today. Facing a long war against terrorism, it is willing to become overnight friends with countries it used to condemn. Countries such as Pakistan.

Until Sept. 11, Pakistan was in Washington`s bad books. The United States imposed sanctions on Pakistan in 1998 after India and Pakistan conducted tit-for-tat nuclear tests, setting back U.S. attempts to stop the spread of nuclear weapons. More sanctions came in 1999 when General Pervez Musharraf seized power, overturning an elected government. Washington cut off direct aid, stopped military co-operation and dropped its support for international lending to the near-bankrupt Pakistani government.

Now, miraculously, all is forgiven. Since Gen. Musharraf`s decision to help Washington track down Osama bin Laden in neighbouring Afghanistan, the United States has showered the Musharraf regime with thanks, money and promises of more. Washington is lifting the nuclear sanctions and thinking hard about lifting the coup-related sanctions, too. Aid and lending support is to resume and Washington will reschedule $379-million in Pakistani debt. ``In the coming weeks, the United States will be looking at other ways in which it might support Pakistan`s economic development,`` U.S. ambassador Wendy Chamberlain said.

Never mind that Pakistan has refused so far to break diplomatic relations with Afghanistan`s vicious Taliban regime. Never mind that Pakistan practically invented the Taliban, fostering its emergence from Islamic religious schools in the country. Never mind that Pakistan is a military dictatorship with nuclear weapons and a deplorable human-rights record. And never mind that Pakistan supports terrorism in the disputed Indian border state of Kashmir. Apparently, in this war, even the most dubious allies are welcome.

No one can blame Washington for seeking the aid of Pakistan, the front-line state in the coming clash with the Taliban and a possible staging ground for U.S. planes and troops. But Washington must make it clear that it is not writing a blank cheque. This should be a short-term, tactical alliance.

In the longer haul, the United States should urge Pakistan and other allies such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia to put aside their autocratic ways and take the path of democratic reform. If Islamic militancy thrives, it is partly because opponents of regimes like these have few other legitimate outlets. If Islamic terrorism is to be defeated, that must change.

For info: Christiane Amanpour interviews President Musharraf on CNN at 11 am Sunday.

Dear sir

today best day for pakistani. Now democresy saction gone. Pr.bush did it, good mr. bush madani salutes ok. long liver bush and general sahib.I saw cnn good tele co. Z tv not happy. Pakistan ke dushman ka muh kala, dirty hindus crying against usa. Bush and general Sahib very good frends, bush hate india and hindus, he hate animal worshipper he named his DOG INDIA, READ IN URDU PEPERS. may be name advani chor sindhi and wajpai baniya.. India primeminster crying. Geeral sahib bush talk. Promise for pak istan for kashmir. My wish to work in kasmir-pakistan in hotel indusrty ok.Kashmir banega pakistan. Now pakistan Pyre (vary vary liked liked) by usa and china. nobody likes india, sorry hindus.Worship cows HAHAHA....... Anyway.No insult ok.

bbc urdu say uk and china and japan give lot of dollars in new loan in dollars ok.No payment this year. Hindus get nothing, well sorry hindus. Arabs want dollars real ,so no gas for india,sorry feel bad, excuse me ok. Use cowdung for power and electrikciti ok.General Sahib is like Churchill of pakistan. he saved pakistan ok. now expak plese put your mony in pak. , pak stok market.So suport to PK. by bieing stok. My manager said if stok goes up economy up ok. Expak show partritic spirit, talk chip by paki stok ok. Soon economi will rise very good and hindus lost bus. we are with bush in bus advani waiting for us bus. Sorry no usa to pick up animal worshiper hindus. HAHAHA drive cows to catch pk in car. Golden day for pak usa frendship. Thank general Sahib and Presadent Bush, Madani salute, ok.Sal ke din ho hazar, pakistan jiye hazar sal.Long live pakistan. Pakistan will live longer than india and hindus.

sigalph:

no openings for a food minister?

sigalph da,

I absoluteley must protest we must have ROmair for ministry of (dis)Information. Such amazing talent, we simply cannot overlook!

Well said Hari Haran!

saminashah #568

[Sadna, Neptune

Arre, what has happened to the Hydra? Who is Lajwanti #529? Is the Hydra walking toward the light?]

Looks like the men in white coats switched the polarity of the electrodes by mistake.

Re: Pakistan`s predicament

Martin Woollacott of The Guardian sums up Pak`s problems nicely in this article:

In an article titiled `` Muslim societies need to deal with their own failure`` he says the following about Pakistan:

``Pakistan`s main difficulty is not the existence of a vehement street opposition, nor differences of religious belief among its elite. It is that the Americans are asking Pakistan, as the historian Professor Ian Talbot puts it, ``to throw 20 years of strategy into the dustbin``. Pakistani life has been dominated since partition by a vain search for a way of maintaining strategic equality with India. This has provided the rationale for its foreign policy and the legitimisation for the overwhelming role of the army and the intelligence services in domestic affairs.

After defeats in war and the loss of Bangladesh, the perplexed Pakistani security elite found a new strategy for Afghanistan-Kashmir. As the Russians flailed away, Pakistan moved into Afghanistan, with the Taliban as its instrument and ally, in pursuit of what was called ``strategic depth``. Influence in Afghanistan and the use of its facilities to train fighters in Kashmir, along with the acquisition of nuclear weapons, was in some way supposed to compensate Pakistan for India`s otherwise vast superiority.

The debate now evidently going on behind the scenes between the American and Pakistani governments is in part about preserving this unhappy strategy, by ensuring that a government beholden to Pakistan survives in Kabul, whatever happens to Bin Laden.

There are Pakistanis who wish that their country would reconcile itself to the fact that it cannot ever be more than a distant number two to India in South Asia. If it continues to bankrupt itself to match India, where are the resources to be found to feed and educate a country which by the middle of this century will be the world`s third most populous nation? How can Afghanistan ever recover if its biggest neighbour insists on viewing everything that happens there through the lens of conflict with India?``.

Sridhar

Re: Pakistan`s complicity

The noose continues to tighten around Pak rulers` necks as the world learns more about Pakistan`s involvement in training ,supporting Taliban terrorists. The following is the link to the article by Satinder Bhindra that talks about the similarity between AI hijacking to Kandhahar and the recent hijacking and terrorist attacks in USA.

``http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/27/inv.hijacking.similarities/index.html``.

As i type this, Bob Arnot of MSNBC is talking about a Kashmiri terrorist cell in Karachi. The noose continues to tighten.

Sridhar

Re Afghani Defense Council:

Recently saw an article in ``nuggests`` at the fridaytimes.com, that leadership composition of afghani leadership council is from NWFP(Taliban support belt). If this is true, then this needs to be exposed and these mullahs need to be marginalized.

I would also urge every Pakistani to write to Musharraf to ``restore Quaid`s vision``; This is the only way to check-mate potential mullah rule for Pakistan. Quaid`s(secular)vision ought to be a rallying cry for all Pakistanis. These mullahs may burn effigies of Musharaff, but they dare not do anything against Jinnah.

Thanks

hariharan.

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re zafar 589

I think roach is called a `telapoka` (is that right maha-bong?).

On the new Republic. I have no intention of becoming a day to day leader. So, please let me be a ceremonial President(how like a bhodrolok) with certain very limited reserved powers. So please look for a decent fellow to become Prime Minister. Furthermore, I also recommend that the following be considered for ministries and commissions(list not exhaustive):

RSaxena : Finance, Economics, and Planning

Aisha Sarwari : Speaker of the House

Tahmed: Ambassador to the UN

Sadna: Education

Urstruly: Head of the Hindu Temples Welfare Trust

YLH: Ministry for the Promotion of Jinnahism

Bong-Dong: Head of the National Tagore Institute

Ras Sahib: Foreign Affairs

MahesgG: Head of the National Waqf Trust

FerozK: Defense

Zahra: Head of National Ghalib Institute

Additionally, I intend to keep charge of the Ministry of Women`s Affairs, Alchohol Control Bureau, the Racing Commission, and Ministry for the Promotion of Decent Language and Prevention of Abusive SLurs.

Hope this meets all your expectations so far.

1/Bajarangdal,killed Staines & his Son,Planned fire-bombing church

2/Rss caused mumai riots in 92-93 ,Some commision worked for 10 yrs.Result Thackeray cannot be charged or convicted b.c STATUTARY LIMITATION OF TIME HAS EXPIRED IN 10 ys

3/Advani incited 3000+ ppl. death by Rath Yatra & ram janbhomi demolition of Babri ,

AND Simi with suspiscious charge of Mr.Mobin student of AMU ,IS BANNED!!!

Hindian,dont talk to Me about Freedom & largest democracy.

Nationwide crackdown on SIMI, chief arrested







EW DELHI: In a crackdown a day after the ban on the Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), its all-India president Shahid Badr and more than 250 other leaders were arrested from across the country, even as curfew continued for the second day in four areas in Lucknow.

Briefing mediapersons here on Friday, home secretary Kamal Pande said, ``I don`t think there was any immediate provocation for the ban.`` The government had held several rounds of discussions with the state governments in the last six months.

He said the largest number of arrests (90) were made in Uttar Pradesh, followed by 45 in Maharashtra and 35 in West Bengal. Andhra Pradesh, Delhi, Kerala, Madhya Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, Rajasthan, Karnataka and Gujarat accounted for the rest. The police sealed several SIMI offices and seized a huge quantity of propaganda material.

Insisting that there was ``reasonable evidence`` that SIMI was indulging in activities detrimental to the national interest, he said several SIMI activists had been arrested in the past in connection with anti-national activities.

The home secretary said SIMI, with its nexus with the Hizbul Mujahideen, had indulged in a series of violent terrorist acts in UP and Tamil Nadu and fomented communal tension.

Asked why the government had not banned the Bajrang Dal as the Madhya Pradesh chief minister had demanded, Pande denied the home ministry had received any letter from the MP government requesting a ban on the Bajrang Dal. Asked if there were similar charges of unlawful activities against the Bajrang Dal, the home secretary said, ``There could be.``

Asked why terrorist organisations operating in Jammu and Kashmir like the Hizbul Mujahideen or the Lashkar-e-Taiba had not been banned, the home secretary made a distinction between them and SIMI. ``With the terrorist groups, we are already at war. Banning will not help stop their activities. While groups like SIMI have a front office and were operating overground, `legitimately` functioning against the interests of the state. So they have to be banned.``

Asked about the charge of SIMI`s links with the Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups, Pande asserted that the government had sufficient evidence. ``We have to be certain of the evidence. Because we know that the matter will be referred to a tribunal within 30 days where it would be scrutinised,`` he said. The tribunal, which will be headed by a sitting high court judge, will adjudicate the ban within six months.

In Delhi, three office-bearers of SIMI were also arrested from its office in Zakir Nagar. The office was also sealed. The arrested leaders were produced in the court of metropolitan magistrate Vinod Kumar who rejected their bail and sent them to judicial custody for 14 days.

Meanwhile, Pakistan on Friday refused to comment on imposition of ban on SIMI, saying it was the internal matter of India. ``We do not wish to comment on the internal situation in India,`` foreign office spokesman Riaz Mohammad Khan told reporters here in reply to a question seeking Pakistan`s reaction.

On Friday, a Delhi court rejected the bail plea of Badr and three others on the ground that they had published an article in their magazine ``hurting`` sentiments of Buddhists.

Rejecting the bail plea of Badr, Saif Nachan, Mohd Khalid and Irfan Khan, who were arrested for raising provocative slogans in protest against the ban on the organisation, Metropolitan Magistrate Vinod Kumar remanded them to 14 days of judicial custody.

Referring to the order banning SIMI, he said: ``I have carefully gone through the notification which has been published in gazette of India extraordinarily on September 27 which has banned SIMI with immediate effect. I am of the opinion that at this stage this is sufficient to reject the bail application``.

Advocate Feroz Khan Ghazi, appearing for the SIMI activists had contended that prosecution had neither disclosed the offences under the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act nor any notification has been published in the gazette. He said the tribunal has also not been constituted in this regard.

Referring to a prominent article in the magazine ``Islamic Movement`` published by the outfit, the judge said ``it has one prominent article on `Taliban Bamian and Budh`, the reading of which is enough to show that this magazine and article has been published with the sole aim to hurt and cause ill will to the followers of Lord Buddha. The bail application is therefore dismissed.``

The court also rejected the bail plea of Asif Mohd Khan, the controversial municipal councillor from Okhla, who was arrested on charges of causing communal disharmony by printing and circulating posters to create enmity between Christians and Muslims and remanded him to 14 days of judicial custody.

``The contents of the posters attempt to promote the enmity, hatred and ill will between Muslims and Christians and if the accused is enlarged on bail it will encourage elements whose interests lay in promoting such ill will,`` the court said.

It said the poster showing ``war between Christianity and Islam is more unfortunate because Mohd Saheb (peace be upon him) himself had great reverence for Lord Christ and acknowledged him as Pegambar of the god``.

Khan allegedly had got pasted the posters on buses and public places praising Saudi terrorist mastermind Osama Bin Laden following the terrorist strikes in the US.

The magistrate said ``references to war between Christianity and Islam have been given in quite bold letters`` in the posters, ``the meaning of which has to be read in the context with the recent developments after the attacks on the World Trade Centre in America``.

Stating that great restraint on behalf of all citizens was required in the present political and social atmosphere, the court said ``the representative of people who had taken oath to a secular Constitution ... A councillor has greater responsibilities than others``.

In Lucknow, SSP B B Bakshi said no untoward incident had been reported since Thursday when four persons were killed in police firing on a rampaging mob protesting against SIMI arrests in the old city.

The UP government ordered a probe by the commissioner, Lucknow division, into the violence and the police firing.

( TIMES NEWS NETWORK & AGENCIES )

=== Interact Filtered ===
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Zafar,

thanks for the invite (I like to call myself a Maha-Bong). But I must warn you I am devoid of the usual graces and the vices of the Bhodrolok.

id #573:

Here`s my take - other Indians may have differing view points.

``How hard lined is BJP about hindutva issues? Are there a lot of pro RSS type elements in BJP?``

The RSS fostered the Jan Sangh which later morphed into the BJP. Most top BJP folks are from the RSS, except recent entrants (like Jaswant Singh). In the 80s, RSS used to provide the organisational strength to BJP for election work and so on. BJP is pretty Hindu hardline.

The RSS, despite having had one of its members assassinating Mahatma Gandhi, used to be a well respected organisation at least till late 80s and at least in Karnataka where I grew up. Most of its members were middle class, with nationalistic pride, doing a lot of volunteering/social work etc. They were also known for their discipline, as was the BJP (then!), which was a contrast to the Congress and other parties that were rife with dissidence. The RSS was/is also fiercely Hindu but that was not a negative so long as it did not mean anti-other religions.

Only in the last decade have they become unrecognizable to me. Especially the Sangh Parivar with the likes of VHP, the disgusting Bajrang Dal and the Shiv Sena goondas (SS is not part of the Sangh Parivar) and assorted organisations.

``Also, why has BJP got so much support in the past few years, despite their reputation of being hard liners?``

I think the Babri/Ram Janmabhoomi issue really mobilised a lot of people. Secondly, the Congress and other parties are really pseudo-secular, ie they do not treat all religions equally which should be the way in a truly secular country. Not that they looked after minority interests, but they pandered to the vocal few in the minority, but discriminated against the majority. There are so many issues that have been swept under the carpet in the name of tolerance, but have been simmering inside for long.

I think BJP`s `be proud to say you are a Hindu` slogan really touched a cord with many middle class people.

One point not to be missed is that the Congress was viewed as decadent by the voters, corrupt, with no charismatic person from the dynasty on the scene after Rajiv Gandhi. BJP was viewed as disciplined and honest and suddenly represented an alternative not available till then.

``Are the marginal majority of Indians hardliners, or is it just a political issue, and people seem to go with the tide of emotions?``

If you mean religious hardliners, I dont know. The country is too vast, and there are other issues apart from religion (notably caste, region) that come into play. There definitely are a lot of hardliners, esp middle class unfortunately these days and even in the media. However, I will say that as a percentage of the religion, there are more Muslim hardliners in India than Hindu hardliners. Probably because they are a minority... The only differnce is that Hindu hardliners control several organisations and are vocal in the `national` media, while the Muslim hardliners are not.

Reply Subroto # 561

“… you missed out on the essential reading for the dirty minded roach - ``Playroach`` (of course I read it for the articles)”

Oita keeeeeeeee? Shameless fellow! (Such things will be banned yaar, remember, Mamata Didi and all…).

Ohhhhh – also big oversight – Bong-Dongs (while ethnicity not confirmed but I infer) must be invited to head some Govt Department so the bhodrolokisation of subcontinental politics can proceed apace. As chief spokesroach would you approach?

Reply Hobbyty # 564

“Perhaps you are right. I have not paid attention to the fact that hurt, physical and emotional, arises out of our responses to Partition may need to be aired more often, on a national, perhaps international level. I just hope it doesn`t become a ``I hurt more`` competition between Pakistan and India.”

I certainly hope not! How distasteful!

“About Sushma and rude remarks - See, Pakistan or Musharraf cannot be responsible for the Indian`s choice. We can not make the horse actually drink, we can lead it water, but not make it drink. I think if the Indian population can be reached directly, then Mr. Musharraf stands a good chance of making a full case for the Pakistani position, and then must rely on the conscience and understanding of the issue by the ordinary Indian.”

Yes, 100% true – so Pakistan should stop turning down India Today’s requests to open an office there to facilitate reporting from and about Pakistan. (Though that takes control of reporting content away from the GoP and GoI.) Dawn/Jung etc. should start operating in India also. I think the outcomes would be really good, if a bit difficult for our Governments to deal with.

Reply Sigalph # 574

“I stand ready to serve the new Republic in any suitably humble capacity. Jai Roachistan!”

Welcome! How do you say Roach in Bengali?

Reply Stuka # 575

“… I think the Indian Gov`t should be far-sighted enough to take this opportunity to do a deal on Kashmir.”

When has our Government ever been accused of being far sighted? But vaisai, hopefully they will pull their finger out in time.

“India should actually open a window of opportunity and hammer out some sort of compromise without formal transfer of territory, but outside tboundaries of the constitution. Will this actually happen? Unfortunately, in this case I believe our democracy would actually be a handicap in the hammering out of a solution.”

Yaar, kya karen, yeh kambakhth democracy sir pe charh gayi na….

I get the feeling that the situation is going to have strong parallels to the post WWII and cold war period in Europe.

1 Isolate your enemies as much as possible.

2 Pretend that people who supportyed your enemies were actually not, so that they can conveniently change sides. (As they did to Italy and Austria.)

3 It doesn’t matter if this leaves only the junior partners to deal with – in fact that’s a good thing.

Number two refers to at least significant portions of the Pakistani establishment, and also to some parts of the Saudi establishement. I can’t believe that the media is not commenting on the fact that a high proportion of the hijackers were Saudi nationals – though I think Romair does on the Islam’s Challenge Board. The conflict is not between countries, but between different versions of the future – and hence is going to be deeply dividing. Unfortunately I don’t think that religiously fuelled intolerance can be swept under the carpet as effectively as political intolerance was in Europe.

Zafar

hobbtty,

Thanks I will.

Aisha

Mr Hobbyty should find this interesting

http://www.hclinfinet.com/2001/SEP/WEEK4/5/opinioncol1frame.jsp

Re:Reply #: 573

id,

In order to know the thought process of RSS, one needs to be a member of this organisation. I grew up in a secular enviornment in Delhi. As far as i remember, RSS was banned off and on during those times. I learned about this organisation from hearsay only. It is one of the most disciplined organisations in the country. I was a witness to one of their congregations in a school ground in Mylapore, Madras (near my parental house). Thousands of volunteers and members were there doing P.T drill and some exercises. A few hours later, they all dispersed silently. No big fuss. No traffic problem. I was really impressed.

When a train disaster happened in a place in Karnataka, the first people to arrive on the scene were RSS volunterrs. They are fiercely patriotic. Unfortunately, many times this patriotism is tinged with anti-muslim bias. Even today, many people who view Pak as the enemy automatically assume anti-muslim postures forgetting being anti-Pakistani is not same as being anti-muslim.

Hindutva is a concept enunciated by RSS and propogated by BJP. They are saying that even muslims in India are part of a heritage that makes them as much a hindu as other hindus are. They use the term Hindu in a civilisational tone. They really do not mean the religion. They eventually want all minorities to submerge their identities in the larger Hindu identity. This is no doubt scary for the minorities. If you ask my opinion, this Hindutva is a stupid concept. I will say: let a thousand flowers bloom in this garden called Hindustan. There is no fun if all flowers are of same color. Besides, constitution of India guarantees equality and right to religion to all minorities.

Majority of Indians do not subscribe to the hindutva ideology, which is why BJP can never come to power in the center on its own strength. It has had to tone down its rhetoric, project a more secular image. Indians, needless to say, have to be constantly on guard.

Sridhar

Re:Reply #: 567

RSaxena,

An average American has a lot of virtues but intelligence is not one of them. How else can anyone confuse a muslim clergy with a Sikh. Both wear turbans, both have beard, so what? Look closely guys and you will know the difference. Me and my Turkish friend had a good laugh over this.

Sridhar

Re:Reply #: 562

Zafar,

I agree with most of your post except when you talk about Kashmir. To answer your last question first (what will happen to Pakistani Army when Pak manages to get Kashmir), make no mistake,Pak Army will be emboldened with this victory and will wage a war against rest of India sitting literally on our rooftop.

The news coming from USA speaks of a concerted effort against terrorism including Kashmiri terrorism. GOI has been trying to link OBL and Kashmiri terrorism. I was delighted to see CNN`s Satinder Bhindra talk about this yesterday w.r.t the hijacked Air India plane. Besides, it should be obvious to US now that terrorism cannot be treated in isolation. I also read a report of links between LTTE (Tamil guerillas)and Taliban. These are 2 disparate groups with nothing in common except that they are terrorists and kill innocent people. As Colin Powell said, terrorism must be eliminated ``root and branch``.

I have oflate started wondering why USA keeps talking about a protracted war. Is it just to prepare the Americans of what is to come? Or is there something more to it? America may benefit if it gets a foothold in Afghanistan. It can watch China from close quarters. It can also have a better access to Central Asian republics which are teeming with oil and gas. US may not be averse to having a more tolerant Taliban ruling the country (one that can tolerate American presence, though i confess i do not know how this can happen). This may be the best thing for Pak. Mushy can tell his countrymen that he has avoided doing any harm to Taliban. If this seems feasible (having a moderate Taliban in control of Afghanistan), US may reward Pak for its efforts. Such a reward may include a more active role by US to settle the Kashmir problem. The question is : Is there something like a moderate Taliban?

For Russia, any US presence in the area is a disaster. Hence, its insistence on fighting Taliban by strengthening Northern Alliance. In this regard, recent meeting between Russia, Iran and India assume significance. All 3 hate Taliban and have been supporting the Northern Alliance. They benefit (to Pak`s detriment)if the alliance were to defeat Taliban. Alliance has only 10% of Afghanistan under its control. A complete victory over Taliban seems like something that may take years if not months (provided all parties were to support the alliance). USA has to make up its mind if it has to support Northern Alliance or take Taliban on its own strength (with its allies). This latter course is fraught with danger of not only alienating the moderate muslim states eventually but also to alienate a large section of Pakistani population that is pro-Taliban. The first course (of supporting the Northern Alliance)seems more logical but may be opposed tooth and nail by Pakistani establishment as a victory by the alliance means having an enemy next door. Tough times for Paksitan.

Sridhar

Afghanistan`s Atmosphere Of Mistrust U.S. Looks for Partners In a Region of Rivals

By Peter Baker

Washington Post Foreign Service

Thursday, September 27, 2001; Page A01

JABAL SARAJ, Afghanistan, Sept. 26 -- Inside the compound that houses his rebel regiment, Gen. Mohammad Aref readies for what could be the final act of a long civil war with the ruling Taliban. He is prepared for a tough battle. He is prepared to fight alongside the United States. But he is not prepared to trust America`s ally

over the border.

``To trust Pakistan is difficult,`` Aref explained

today, ``because Taliban means Pakistan.``

Here in rebel-controlled northeastern Afghanistan, the suspicion and even hatred of Pakistan runs deep because of its role as prime patron of the radical Taliban, which has ruled most of Afghanistan for five years. The feeling

is mutual in Islamabad, Pakistan`s capital, where the Pakistani foreign minister this week warned the United States not to team up with the Afghan rebels, known as the Northern Alliance.

The enmity is a challenge for the Bush administration as it assembles a coalition to retaliate against the Taliban for harboring Osama bin Laden, the chief suspect in the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the

Pentagon. The United States wants to use bases in

Pakistan for possible strikes against Afghanistan, and it may support the Northern Alliance`s ground troops in their fight against the Taliban. But those two most important potential U.S. partners regard each other as blood enemies.

Even if the hostility is finessed in the short term, it promises delicate problems down the road. If the Taliban is dislodged, as President Bush has suggested is a U.S. aim, the formation of any new government in Kabul under the Northern Alliance is bound to foster tension and possibly destabilization in an already troubled region.

Pakistan worries that an unfriendly Afghan government dominated by the rebels would threaten its security as it faces a politically hostile India on its other flank. Some analysts believe that victory by the Northern Alliance could even trigger a backlash among Islamic militants in Pakistan that could threaten the government

of Gen. Pervez Musharraf. Because both India and Pakistan possess nuclear weapons, turmoil in the region could become a global crisis.

Nearly every country in Central Asia claims important stakes in the fortunes of the Northern Alliance. India, which contests the Kashmir region with Pakistan, has provided money and weapons to the northern fighters.

Shiite Muslim Iran, which despises the Sunni Muslim Taliban, also has supported the Northern Alliance, providing arms and training.

Russia, fearful of the spread of the Taliban`s brand of Islam into former Soviet republics on its border, has provided financial, military and logistical support to the Northern Alliance -- all of whose primary commanders fought Soviet forces that occupied Afghanistan in the

1980s. However, most Central Asian states have been wary of direct support to the rebels. In recent years, several have made diplomatic overtures to the Taliban in efforts to seek a peace settlement.

It is uncertain how closely the United States will work with the Northern Alliance. Abdullah, a top alliance official who like many Afghans uses just one name, said today that contacts with U.S. officials had increased in recent days. He hinted that the rebels had given Washington a list of potential bombing targets that

presumably includes air bases and other military

installations.

But suggesting that Washington has so far withheld any commitment, Abdullah solicited U.S. assistance: ``We deserve this, and we have the right to get this support.``

The Northern Alliance represents a coalition of ethnic and political factions that banded together to resist the Taliban, which has imposed its rigid interpretation of Islam on most of the country. A major component of the alliance is the former Afghan government that the Taliban

drove from Kabul, the capital, in 1996.

The rebels control 10 percent or less of Afghanistan but say they have 15,000 armed fighters and an intimate knowledge of the territory that could be invaluable for

the U.S. military.

By themselves, the guerrillas might never defeat the Taliban. Despite a new push to recapture the strategic northern city of Mazar-e Sharif, and reports today of taking a nearby district, they have failed over five years to seriously threaten Kabul. But the prospect of a U.S. military operation has changed that equation.

The alliance still considers itself the rightful

government of Afghanistan -- Abdullah, for instance, holds the title of foreign minister -- but the group has moved in recent days to ease concerns that it expects to simply take over if the Taliban is ousted by the United

States.

A rebel delegation was heading to Rome today to meet with former Afghan king Mohammed Zahir Shah and overseas Afghan interest groups to begin discussing a post-Taliban government. Zahir Shah, the last of the Durrani dynasty that ruled Afghanistan for more than 200 years, was on

the throne for 40 years. He was deposed in 1973 by his brother-in-law, who established a republic and exiled the monarch to Rome.

If the Taliban is brought down, the rebels said, they plan to establish an interim government that would include various political blocs to establish order, draft a constitution and schedule elections. ``We will be a major factor`` in this temporary government, said Abdullah. But ``all other groups that share these

values should participate.

``What we want to see is a moderate Islamic country where democracy would be the rule of the game,`` he added. ``The will of the people should be accepted, and the rights of the people, women and men,``

protected. ``The people should decide who to go with

and who not.``

His comments came a day after Pakistani Foreign Minister Abdus Sattar told reporters in Islamabad that the United States should not choose sides between the Taliban and the Northern Alliance. ``We must not make the blunder

of trying to foist a government on the people of

Afghanistan,`` he said. ``We fear that any such

decision on the part of foreign powers to give assistance

to one side or the other in Afghanistan is a recipe for

great disaster for the people of Afghanistan.``

The relationship between Afghanistan and Pakistan has been complicated for years. The United States used Pakistan to manage its proxy war against the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s. After five years of chaos following the Russians` withdrawal, Islamabad intervened on behalf of the Taliban.

In recent years, Pakistan has given the Taliban tens of millions of dollars in aid, from wheat and fuel to funds for the salaries of its government officials; on behalf of the Taliban, Pakistan set up a telephone network,

repaired roads, provided electricity, overhauled aircraft and helped establish a national radio station in Afghanistan. In exchange, Pakistan used Afghanistan for its own purposes, such as training militants there for the conflict with India in Kashmir.

But the Taliban resisted subservience and began

manipulating its patron. It established a trade scheme that cost Pakistan millions of dollars in customs fees while allegedly enriching Afghan bandits. The Taliban has used Pakistani intelligence and military in the ongoing

civil war, according to rebel generals. The rebels say 500 of the 2,500 Taliban defenders on the Kabul front are Pakistanis. Pakistan has refused to cut diplomatic ties to the Taliban, and now it is the only country that still

recognizes the Afghan government.

Here in Jabal Saraj, 45 miles north of Kabul, Abdullah scoffed at Sattar`s invocation against foreign involvement, noting that Pakistan had interfered in Afghan affairs for years.

He accused Pakistan of deceiving the United States by targeting only enough terrorist elements to satisfy Washington. ``My fear is Pakistan will decide which terrorists are its `good terrorists` and `bad terrorists`

and keep some terrorists for the future. This would be a disaster. Pakistan is trying to keep its influence by keeping a part of the Taliban force in place in Afghanistan.``

The close ties make the Taliban and Pakistani governments indistinguishable to many in the Afghan opposition. From regimental commanders to everyday residents, Afghans living in rebel-held territory often volunteer harsher recriminations toward Pakistan than toward the Taliban.

Nasser Bakhshi, a rebel official in the town of Khoja Bahauddin, subscribes to a simple formula for victory in the civil war. ``If Pakistan stops helping, we would win,`` he said.

Mirakhman, a rebel commander at the front lines north of Kabul, offered a similar assessment when asked the prospects for retaking the capital if the United States bombs Afghanistan.

``You have to destroy Pakistan,`` he said.

``Then we`ll go to Kabul.``

id : 573

Let me start with what I feel is true, without any doubt. There exists a very high degree of animosity between Hindus and Muslims as communities. But if one talks only in terms of the religion, then Hindus are very tolarent of Islam. And many don`t fail to appreciate its unique strengths.

It`s more of intolerance between two communities.

I feel, a lot may be because people have not really forgotten partition. Though the generation that was most effected is hardly alive and our history books do not mention partition in more than few words, it still manages to cling in peoples` minds.

BJP has a lot of RSS followers and a lot of hardliners. But in public they maintain a very rational approach, maintaining a good distance from RSS and its children. During the Babri demolition, BJP was able to convince people

that Congress was pro-Muslim and thus harming their(hindus) interests. The kind of propaganda they indulged in was unbeatable. They convinced the masses that for hundreds of years of Muslim brutality, asking for Babri was not a big deal at all. Mandalisation had just taken place and Hindus needed a unifying point. BJPs Hindu

support was getting divided amidst mandal parties. So it raised the pitch. You might wonder what was the fault of Muslims. Muslims have generally been perceived to be against anything Hindu, aggressive and violent, backward in every sphere of development. It just makes them easy prey to mullahs. But the bloodbath that followed babri demolition made a lot of leaders and people from both sides think. And the result is riots have decreased barring sporadic incidents here and there. But incidents in our neighbouring countries do have their implications when people suddenly take sides. We may not like it, but relations with Pakistan do matter.

Hmmm.. you ask about marginal majority...? You have already assumed rather presumed.

If you keep track on Indian politics, you can see BJP sweating it out in UP. No temple and no religion can assuage the feelings of people there. To get out of that nightmare, BJP is trying to play the caste card. This in the land of Babri mosque.There is a limit to which BJP can color this country. There are in-built

institutions (democratic and secular) that can check them. That`s why RSS since its inception in 1900s and BJP as Jan Sangh since `70s is trying, still trying.

I can say for sure, Hinduism is not easy to twist. I firmly beilieve Hindu fundamentalism is a reactionary force, a new ideology(if u can call it).I may be prejudiced but nevertheless. And, if India is secular it is because of Hinduism. I say this with pride.

Hope it helped.

Pullu

A. Sarwari

I have posted an article #178 on the inappropriately named, Islam`s Challenge board. Please take the time to review and post your comments.

Re: Bapu

``HERE IS GOOD ROLE MODEL FOR ALL YOU PAKISTANI FEMENAZI ,SINGLE MOTHERS,DIVORCEE,SPINSTRESS,SEPERATED,WIDOWs,And `I STILL DONT KNOW WHY BURN THE BRA?```

You must be a real casanova with the ladies, in real life.

Re id--and one more thing...

The babri came down when the BJP was in the opposition.

Re id--my two cents worth contribution

``How hard lined is BJP about hindutva issues? Are there a lot of pro RSS type elements in BJP? Also, why has BJP got so much support in the past few years, despite their reputation of being hard liners?``

The BJP is the leader of a coalition whose members are not necessarily on the same page. The common glue that hold them together is a dislike for the Congress party/Sonia Gandhi as well as other opportunistic reasons. You`ve got fiery socialists [George Fernandes], opportunists [Mamata in Bengal], pragmatists [Chandrababu Naidu in Andhra] and atheists [DMK in Tamil Nadu] in the mix, so go figure. And without their support, the BJP goes straight to the opposition. The Shiv Sena is a loony outfit that was in power in Maharashtra, but they didn`t do a good job and got booted out. Of course, each segment within the coaltion talks the talk, but when it comes to policy, it`s a whole different ball game.

There are nuts in the BJP, and that includes the RSS, Bajrang Dal and others flakes, and they have always been small and vocal. These were the people responsible for Babri if you will. They do succeed in placing their favorites in power, but then there is the balance of the so-called secular side of the party.

That`s why while they were able to trash the babri building, the BJP has done diddly in terms of their avowed goal of building a Ram temple on the same location.

While the level of dementia among hindu nuts may be similar to those of your nuts, the main difference is a lack of heavy weaponry. The RSS types have exercises every morning in khaki shorts and sticks. Your nuts use AK-47s. There is no predominant gun culture and that explains the relative calm in India. If these guys had access to all the firearms your nuts have, boy would we be in seriously deep trouble.

``Are the marginal majority of Indians hardliners, or is it just a political issue, and people seem to go with the tide of emotions?``

The second part of your question sorta answers the first part, doesn`t it? In fact, the majority of Indians are not hardliners. The vast majority has a live and let live attitude though things are getting a little more intolerant when compared to the old days. They may get emotional from time to time, but come election time [which rather fortunately happens like clockwork] they vote their wallets. If the economy does fine, the ruling party stays. The price of rice is more important than some emotional issue such as a temple somewhere.

HERE IS GOOD ROLE MODEL FOR ALL YOU PAKISTANI FEMENAZI ,SINGLE MOTHERS,DIVORCEE,SPINSTRESS,SEPERATED,WIDOWs,And `I STILL DONT KNOW WHY BURN THE BRA?`

Kali Revisited

“I’m not a bra-burning feminist. I don’t know of any feminist who goes around burning bras. Bras are just too expensive to burn,” says Urvashi Butalia with a tinge of humour, on being asked how she reacts to people calling her a feminist.

“And now, when people call me a feminist I take it as a compliment.” Sitting in her Hauz Khaz office in Delhi, Urvashi recalls converting to feminism in her teens. Even though she denies being the slogan-shouting women’s activist that people often accuse her of being, she continues to fight a literary battle of a different kind.

Her publishing house, Kali for Women, is her inspiration, her shakti. Women fascinate her. And completely absorb her. Her tale is about an extraordinary woman who’s tried to change ordinary lives. Her grey streaked hair and dark circles whisper secrets of a thousand sad, betrayed women. She carries their burden with pleasure, making a mission of it all.

And as she flips the hundredth page of Jose Saramago’s Blindness, she still feels books are her closest link to reality.

It is this link that made her set up Kali for Women — India’s first and only feminist publishing house — along with Ritu Menon. Yet, starting it wasn’t easy — after all, it was bankrolled by a $100 investment in 1984.

Ritu Menon had been her comrade and still is. As she prepares for Kali’s forthcoming book, Women in Kashmir, to hit the stands, she knows it’s a book that’s a result of in-depth study. “Kali for Women doesn’t just publish books, we also undertake studies related to women.” Kali was formed at a crucial time: “We were heard, especially in Parliament, where nobody could ignore women any longer.”

And now, they have some hot-selling women authors writing for them — Vandana Shiva, Romila Thapar, Taslima Nasreen and Manjula Padmanabhan. It all began in Miranda House, when she was doing her under-graduate degree in English: “I was agitated when I saw women weren’t involved in Delhi University elections.

As a leader of the students’ union I was particularly vocal about the way I felt about things.” That was in the ’70s, when the seed of feminism was planted in Butalia. The rest was easy. Being labelled a feminist didn’t bother her. And then she decided not to get married. “It wasn’t a conscious decision. But it just never happened. I don’t have any regrets. Sometimes I do think life would have been different had I got married. Not that I’m the kind who hates men. But I do believe that other relationships can be just as satisfying.”

By the time she graduated, her mother had already started Stree Sangharsh, an organisation for women that staged anti-dowry street plays. “Now, my mother runs Karmica, an organisation that provides legal aid and counselling for women.” Butalia was amongst the ‘11 women’ who launched Manushi: “But I quit after the first issue came out.”

It was her love for printing which made her take up a job with Oxford University Press in the late ’70s. She quit in 1982 after which

she worked for Zed books in London: “They publish Third World books. I basically wanted to make contacts for Kali.” And Kali’s forte has been publishing Third World books on women. “Though Kali isn’t just a publishing house, we’ve done studies on feminist historiography, women in media, sectarian strife and fundamentalism.”

For her own book, The Other Side of Silence: Voices from the Partition, published by Penguin she took almost a hundred interviews of people who were hit by Partition. “I write only non-fiction. My writing is basic.” Quite like her, as she believes on existing on a shoe-string budget. And when she’s not pre-occupied by women woes or her books, she likes to discover herself with her friends.

Zafar:

2 Pakistan’s Government has had to do a sharp about turn regarding their support for the Taliban and (increasingly obvious) control of the Taliban. This has caused a lot of unrest in Pakistan – and the only way Musharraf seems to be able to sell it to the Pakistani public is by linking this about turn to an increase in Pakistan’s ability to do something to “gain Kashmir’s freedom” in the future. As it is I believe that Musharraf will have a hard time surviving the aftermath of the coming conflict in Afghanistan (a fatwa has already been issued against him in – of all places – London). If he can’t deliver something on Kashmir as a sop to the Pakistani public’s pride, and I am sorry to say that this something will probably also have to be perceived as disadvantageous to India, he has no chance of surviving at all. I believe that his position is similar to Sadat’s – he’s doing something that’s probably good for his country, but this involves walking away from an ideological commitment on which the country has staked its izzat – unless there’s some sop to this izzat, he (and his supporters) may pay a high personal price. Which should focus their minds when dealing (bargaining?) with the US.

I agree with your analysis. That`s why I think the Indian Gov`t should be far-sighted enough to take this opportunity to do a deal on Kashmir. Not a deal on Pakistan that is imposed, but one in which both parties genuinely feel that something has been gained.

India has 2 aspects of the Kashmir problem, one indigenous, one with Pakistan. On a moral basis, I am very much against doing a deal with the Kashmiris because I genuinely feel that till 1989, they did not suffer more or less under Indian misrule, as compared to rest of India. However, pragmatism dictates that instead of holding Pakistan`s feet to the fire in an hour of need, India should actually open a window of opportunity and hammer out some sort of compromise without formal transfer of territory, but outside tboundaries of the constitution. Will this actually happen? Unfortunately, in this case I believe our democracy would actually be a handicap in the hammering out of a solution.

re zafar`s

`Invite Sigalphdada to act as Prez`

I stand ready to serve the new Republic in any suitably humble capacity. Jai Roachistan!

Zafar, dost mittar, other indian chowkies:

Had a question for you guys. How hard lined is BJP about hindutva issues? Are there a lot of pro RSS type elements in BJP? Also, why has BJP got so much support in the past few years, despite their reputation of being hard liners? Are the marginal majority of Indians hardliners, or is it just a political issue, and people seem to go with the tide of emotions?

panini..why arent u writing man?

Further to my earlier post,

J&K government has given security to some hurriyat leaders as they received threats from the terrorists. What kind of wishywashy policy is this? Can you imagine israel protecting Arafat from Hamas? There`s a lesson here for those making facile comparisons to palestine and kashmir.

#552 rsridhar

That news item was half conjecture and rest wishful thinking.

Getting on the soapbox...

We indians should stop deluding ourselves that our problems are going to go away just like that. It was obscene that George Bush, the moron that he is, would dare the rest of the world and say, ``Either you`re with us or against us``. The iranians had the guts to counter that binary logic but here we are falling all over ourselves begging uncle sam to lend a ear to our complaints. Kashmir problem will not go away until india decides where it stands. If kashmir is an integral part of india why couldn`t i go buy land there and put my roots down? Since i cannot legally do that why should i care to ``defend`` it? We are caught in a web of contradictions. Let`s resolve the problem to ourselves first. India should do away with morality as an instrument of statecraft. Look, here`s pakistan that hatched and nurtured the taleban that is being paid to contain to it. Where is morality here.

Would you guys please stop quoting indian media which are (at the moment) nothing but groveling, whining guttersnipes?

from

http://www.usatoday.com/hear.htm

Trainees eager to join `jihad` against America

By Jack Kelley, USA TODAY

PESHAWAR, Pakistan — Morning at the Dar-ul-Uloom Haqquania madrassa, or religious school, begins with a prayer and a defiant chant. ``Oh, Allah, defeat the enemies of Muslims and make Islam and the Taliban victorious over the Americans in Afghanistan,`` the 3,500 students say in unison in the school`s courtyard. Then, they break into a chorus of ``Jihad! Jihad!`` or ``Holy war! Holy war!`` Their words bring a smile to the face of the school`s chancellor, Maulana Sami ul-Haq. ``Osama and the Taliban would be proud,`` he says. Ten of the Taliban`s 12 senior leaders studied here. Their pictures hang on the walls of the courtyard, next to that of Osama bin Laden.



Even Mullah Mohammed Omar, the Taliban`s leader, attended the school briefly before he left in the 1980s to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

``They are all our inspiration,`` Haq says. ``And soon, we`ll be fighting alongside them.``

Tens of thousands of students at Pakistan`s 6,000 militant Muslim madrassas say they plan to go to Afghanistan to fight U.S. soldiers, attack bases in Pakistan that may host American forces, or conduct suicide bomb attacks against U.S. targets if President Bush launches military action against bin Laden and the ruling Taliban militia in Afghanistan.

Bush has named bin Laden the prime suspect in the attacks in the USA and is expected by many here to be preparing retaliatory strikes at him and the Taliban, which has been harboring him for years. But the madrassa students say any U.S.-led strikes won`t stop the terrorism.

``We are all Osama bin Ladens,`` says Abdullah Shah, 35, senior teacher at Dar-ul-Alloon Sarhad, a nearby madrassa. ``Getting rid of one Osama won`t solve your problems. Your trouble is just beginning.``

Already, more than 2,000 students, some carrying the Koran, Islam`s holy book, and AK-47 assault rifles, have crossed into Afghanistan within the last week, Pakistani officials say.

More are on their way. Hundreds of others, who have been fighting Indian forces, are withdrawing from the Pakistani side of the disputed Himalayan region of Kashmir. They also are heading for Afghanistan, Indian officials say.

Other madrassas, such as Haqquania here, are planning to shut down temporarily next week to allow their students to join the Taliban. Those who do go are being offered ``extra credit.``

``We give them the knowledge, the Taliban gives them the guns,`` Haq says. ``I, and all my students, will support the Taliban and Osama at all costs. They are the only ones implementing true Islam.``

Haq is believed to be one of bin Laden`s closest friends in Pakistan, and Pakistani officials say he is a Taliban insider. He keeps three pictures atop his desk, and one in his wallet, all of which show him standing arm-in-arm with bin Laden. He says he uses a red ``hotline`` phone on his desk to call Taliban officials in the Afghan cities of Kabul and Kandahar.

``Osama and the Taliban are alive and well, thanks to God,`` Haq says.

He refuses to say when he last spoke with bin Laden and denies knowing where he is hiding. ``Osama and the Taliban will not go lightly. They are preparing for a fight. That`s where we come in.``

USA TODAY was invited to spend a day at two of Pakistan`s madrassas, one of them militant and the other moderate. The Islamic clerics who run the schools say they want to explain their anger to Americans before their jihad against the United States begins.

There are an estimated 40,000 madrassas in Pakistan, of which the government says 6,000 are militant. The madrassas, financed by wealthy businessmen in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and other countries, offer the best chance for an education for Pakistan`s poor. Most government-run schools are overcrowded and underfunded and require students to pay for some costs. The madrassas do not charge tuition.



By Jack Kelley, USA TODAY

Abdullah Shah sits with his students at the Dar-ul-Alloon Sarhad school.



The students, most of whom are from Pakistan and Afghanistan, spend up to 6 hours a day memorizing the Koran. Then, they spend 2-4 hours listening to lectures about the Koran and the Islamic prophet Mohammed. Their curriculum includes some mathematics and geography but little else. Critics say the schools are teaching intolerance.

``These schools are providing an education which is basically unchanged from the 11th century,`` says Islamic analyst Pervez Hoodboy. He says they produce ``a student with a particular mindset, one who does not question and who can be easily motivated into fighting to the death.``

Pakistani officials, while insisting that militant Muslims represent only 15% of Pakistan`s 140 million people, fear that the actions of the madrassa students could destabilize the government, which is led by a man who took power in a military coup 2 years ago. Fearing an uprising mobilized by the madrassas, the government has not cracked down on the schools.

``The biggest danger for Pakistan is from young, disillusioned and angry Pakistanis, many of them poor and jobless, who may be driven to join the radicals in a jihad,`` says former Pakistani army chief of staff Mirza Aslam Baig. ``Some of the madrassas are breeding grounds for this