Caught In Between

Re: YLH

I hope that you will take my criticism of Gowardhan`s language, and not repeat the errors of judgment that Gowardhan commits by responding in kind. I have read your posts, and there is little to distinguish between your language and Gowardhan`s.

Urstruly, you seem to be echoing the Markaz-dawa ideology to the hilt. Every word you utter is also is theirs, and in it is on their website.

(the sites title is Markaz Ad-Dawa Wal Irshad (Mujahideen Lashkar-e-Taiba)).

the site address is markazdawa.org

Hey people we have a very well known personality amongst us. Maybe he should come forward and take his bows.

Urstruly, why be shy and have false modesty.

URSTRULY, LOVER OF GANDHI, SHOWS HIS TRUE COLORS.

Are the Tabilan finally seeing sense? Have their masters made them see sense? Will Osama Bin Laden be deposited with Pakistan to be handed our to the Europeans or the US? Or is it just another ploy to delay the inevitable?

from tehelka.com

Headline: Talks end, Taliban calls them ‘positive’

Webpage: http://www.tehelka.com/others/backend/news/ShowNews.asp?NewsID=1000

Summary: Meeting lasted 3 hours; no details available but Taliban says it’s hopeful of defusing situation; Pakistan president says govt has taken serious note of the Taliban threat

The following is by Amir Mir (he writen a lot about these issues in various newspapers and magazines). He seems to be making a case which is opposite of what Urstruly and Sawari are making here. Though similar to what ferozk, Fuzair and others are making and have made in the past.

hhhmmm, interesting reading.

Hobson`s Choice

Amir Mir

Many years of flawed policy and many years of failure to address mounting problems have finally left Pakistan staring at a steep and rocky path leading up a mountain. Under what several insiders describe as ``the most compelling pressure,`` Pakistan has opted to co-operate with the United States in action against Afghanistan.

The change in its policy towards the Taleban regime, following the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US, is sudden and has come under duress. The situation clearly places Pakistan in an embarrassing position given the almost unseemly haste with which US demands were met.

A Pakistan delegation led by Inter Services Intelligence director Lieutenant General Mahmood Ahmed left for Kandahar on Monday to persuade the Taleban leadership to hand over Saudi fugitive Osama bin Laden to the United States.

The decision to send a delegation was taken at a meeting presided over by President Pervez Musharraf, after US President George W Bush phoned him seeking Pakistan`s help. Ahmed is believed to be carrying a clear message from Washington that the Taleban had no alternative but to hand over bin Laden within the next three days.

Pakistan`s military leadership is hoping against hope that the delegation can convince the Taleban in a last-ditch effort to ward off the impending US-led attack on Afghanistan. However, the deteriorating relations between the two nations leave very little hope that the initiative will be successful.

Ahmed, who was in Washington when the US faced its morning of terror, had been told in no uncertain terms by American officials what the mood in the US is. The Pakistan delegation had a one-point agenda -- to ask the Taleban to hand over the Saudi dissident or face the wrath of the world.

Observers did not rule out the possibility of the Pakistan delegation handing over some evidence of bin Laden`s involvement in the attacks to Taleban supreme leader Mullah Mohammad Omar, which the Taleban leadership has repeatedly demanded from the US to enable it to consider his extradition to a third country. An Afghan embassy spokesman in Islamabad reiterated his country`s condition for bin Laden`s extradition, saying unless there is concrete evidence that he is involved in terrorism, handing him over to a third country would be against the norms of the Islamic brotherhood.

For Pakistan the considerations to convince the Taleban are domestic, regional and global. Unlike the Zia-ul Haq government, which used a turbulent Afghanistan to its narrow advantage, the Musharraf government expects no such benefit flowing from another war inside Afghanistan. Pakistan decision-makers are worried about a severe domestic backlash from the Taleban lobbies in the nation`s mosques and bazaars. Already, protest rallies against the anticipated US strikes are being staged all over the country. More demonstrations are being planned by the religious, sectarian and jehadi organisations. Analysts believe the rallies are just the tip of the iceberg of more trouble that could erupt after the US military operation begins.

Law enforcement agencies have been given additional powers. A full-fledged internal security plan, prepared at general headquarters and approved by Musharraf, is in place. The governors of all four provinces, along with the respective army corps commanders, have been asked to meet with any exceptional law and order situation. They have been asked to use force where necessary. Even more stringent measures have been taken for Karachi and the border areas of the North West Frontier Province and Balochistan where Afghan refugees are present in the thousands. Special monitoring and surveillance of sectarian groups is being conducted. The fear, however, is that all this may not be enough.

The Pakistan air force has decided to instal a radar system at the strategic hilltop of Laram valley in the lower Dir district, while the Taleban administration of Kunar province sealed the Pakistan-Afghan border at two points along the Bajaur agency for vehicular traffic. Work was taken in hand to instal a radar system and monitor aircraft movement in Pakistan`s airspace and along the border. The nine-kilometre long road from Ouch near Chakdara to the top is also being repaired for the purpose, sources said. The installation on Laram was maintained in 1987-88 when jet attacks resulted in casualties in the Dogie village of Dir district. The radar was removed when the Zarb-i- Momin military exercises were started.

Just as worrying are regional concerns for the Musharraf government. Pakistan is mortally afraid that the facilities it grants US troops will be misused. Military analysts say Pakistan will bear the brunt of a full-fledged military operation because of its geographic proximity to Afghanistan. More precisely, when the operation commences, the sheer scale and confusion it may generate can afford, according to senior military officers, an opportunity to sabotage Pakistan`s nuclear installations. This is the reason why extra measures have been taken to guard these installations.

The air force has been instructed to hunt down any aerial danger in Pakistan`s air space. The details of which air path US-led forces can use have been worked out; some routes are out of bounds for alien aircraft. Pakistan policy-makers are also concerned about the possibility of an accidental or misfired hit at any of the nation`s vital installations.

The military establishment has taken seriously the Taleban threat delivered by its ambassador to Pakistan, Mullah Abdus Salam Zaeef, of invading any country that provides bases or air space to the American-led strike force. A foreign office spokesman said the Pakistan government is extremely disappointed with this statement. ``We see this as audacious and uncalled for, and a sad reflection on the sense of gratitude the Taleban should have, considering that Pakistan, at grave risk to its own image, has been sticking its neck out for them,`` the spokesman said.

Pakistani officials see in the threat potential for the Taleban to use its links with the madrasas inside Pakistan to create upheaval and unrest. Pakistan`s military establishment believes there is a real danger of sectarian terrorism erupting in the wake of the US strikes because the Taleban harbours some of the most wanted criminals from Pakistan on Afghan soil.

Political analysts say Pakistan is equally concerned about the new political arrangement in Afghanistan. For decades Pakistan has invested in the policy of having a friendly government in Afghanistan, and the Taleban, when it had not become an international pariah, was the closest that came to that idea. However, with the Taleban likely to be destroyed as a political entity in the wake of the US strikes and the movement disintegrating along tribal lines, the emerging scenario could lead to a political arrangement that would not fit Pakistan`s agenda.

Pakistan officials hope they will be able to influence the shape of the new Afghanistan government, if it did come to that pass. In fact, this is one of the many issues Pakistan has put forward to the US in its discussions with Washington.

However, it is not clear what the international community`s response will be to Pakistan`s proposal of playing such a role. Of late, Islamabad has been, rightly or wrongly, seen by a majority of countries around the world as part of the problem in Afghanistan.

The immediate concern for the Musharraf government is US pressure. Musharraf`s associates say the general is under tremendous pressure because ``events are moving at a bewildering pace.`` Saturday night`s telephone call from Bush was not just to thank Musharraf on Pakistan`s support, but to ask what Pakistan had decided on providing logistical assistance to the military operation. The US wants a decision and a final detailed yes according to its plans, not all of which have been shared with Pakistan.

Pakistan, according to some officials, wants the US to provide it with some incentives: Economic and military assistance, removal of the post-May 1998 sanctions, debt relief, an active role in helping it to solve the Kashmir problem and no Indian and Israeli role in the military operation.

After his conversation with Bush, Musharraf reportedly informed his associates that Pakistan could give the US logistical support, even allow US ships to dock along its coast. Revealing details of his conversation with his American counterpart, Musharraf told aides he received the impression that the US would look to Pakistan for logistical support in prosecuting the first war of the 21st century.

Bush is learnt to have said that the US wants to base its troops either in Pakistan or Afghanistan, besides having access to Pakistan`s coast to reach landlocked Afghanistan. Sources said the general had not raised specific demands from the Pakistan side, but stressed to Bush that including India or Israel in a force against Afghanistan would make it extremely difficult for Pakistan to play any role in the operation.

I considered myself reasonable educated till this article turned my thinking upside down. So the roots of fanaticism and fundamentalism in Pakistani society were laid by that fanatical rabble rouser M.K.Gandhi and now his followers have destroyed the WTC in New York.

All I remember is a poem that I occasionally read to my daughter

``A wise old owl lived in an oak

The more he saw the less he spoke

The less he spoke the more he saw

O why can`t we be like that wise old bird``

I wish I could type more but these nice men in white suits want me to try out this jacket for them....

urstruly #102 ``banya lover tahmad321 ``

If by ``banya`` you refer to Indians or Hindus in general, then what you say is fine with me. If by ``banya`` you refer to people like Shammi, Shankar, and even Stuka, than I am proud to be on the same side as them, particularly in these difficult times. If by ``banya`` you refer to folks like Gowardhan and jay, then you are obviously ignoring my posts directed at their mindless bigotry and hatred. The lines between good and evil are not the same as ethnic, religious, or national boundries: and with your irrational hatreds, you are placing yourself on the same side of these lines as your soul-mates from India, the side of evil (strong word, but these are times to get one`s thinking straight).

tahmad321

You remind me of those three proverbial monkeys who had their hands covering their mouth, ears, and eyes-see no evil, hear no evil and talk no evil.

I did not mention any names in my post. I was talking about Hindu snakes who have habit of insulting women on Chowk particularly Sarwari, Farzana Versey, and Zahra. Just scroll back to see who they are before taking off your hand from your mouth. I do not see any condemnation for those. It means that you approve their insults. I hope you are reading this post without your hands on your eyes and in the ears.

``Lover of Gandhi``

God! I have never been insulted in my whole life like that before. God! that hurt.

I remember that sometime back some Pakistani wanted a great big public relations effort on behalf of Pakistan to counter the Indian edge.

Well, you guys got it. Did you watch BBC or CNN or DW-TV? Every third minute they were talking about how Pakistan is the only friend of Afghanistan. Isn´t that great? All the publicity that you wanted for all of a week and continuing.

I watched your ambassador to the US lying her way through a CNN interview. The stupid CNN newsperson didn´t know to ask her if the cooperation with the US means finding and arresting Osma bin Laden or would it include shutting down the terrorist camps in Pakistan too.

I see Romair wanting to put on his uniform. Go right ahead, soldier boy.

As far non-cooperation by Pakistanis, the US will blast your F-16s off the air, sink your naval ships, park themselves in any airfield they choose and then get on with the step of bombing Afghanistan. So, don´t go around believing that US NEEDS you. They want to save all their ammunition for Afghanistan. If you so much as emit a little meow, your bases will be pulverized and then the US marines will come in and cart away your tinny nukes. Maybe they will drop it on Kandahar.

As for you, Sarwari, I hope that next time you get anywhere near the San Jose airport to go anywhere, they tell you to take the goddamn bus. That is the civil rights you deserve for letting your people abuse the privileges they have been granted in the West.

Make this man the next PM. If for nothing else than for his eloquence, wit, and debating skills.

I saw him embarass several Pakistani journalists trying to push their standard line on Kashmir during a live interview on CNN a couple of years ago. Too bad the planned debate between him and Musharraf that was to have taken place didn`t happen.

{{{Jaswant laughs off US-Pak deal



NEW DELHI: Indian External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh dismissed as absurd Monday suggestions that Pakistan could strike a deal over Kashmir with the United States in exchange for its support in possible military strikes against Afghanistan.

Indian newspapers have been carrying numerous unconfirmed reports that Pakistan was looking to trade its backing for the US-led anti-terrorist alliance for US intervention in its territorial dispute with India over Kashmir.

Singh scoffed at what he described as the ``sheer absurdity`` of such a scenario.

``I don`t believe that the announcements by the United States about their resolve to fight the system, about their resolve to create the international community`s total commitment to this issue can be accompanied by any kind of bargaining,`` Singh said in an interview with Star TV.

``There is no bargaining. There cannot be. Because bargaining with terrorism is tantamount to accepting terrorism and granting it legitimacy.``}}}

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Urstruly #102

``PLEASE CONDEMN THE HARASSMENT OF LADY CONTRIBUTORS BY HINDU FREAKS ...

The personal attacks and harassment of lady interactors and contributors especially, Sarwari, Farzana Versey, and Zahra must be checked and be condemned....``

WARNING: BEFORE YOU PROCEED FURTHER, THIS IS A PERSONAL ATTACK. PLEASE DONT READ IF YOU ARE OFFENDED

Hear! hear!! Here comes Don Qixote ... nay Don Coyote, riding on his, what? a donkey, or is it a camel, to save the damsels in distress. Coyote has forgotten that these females warriors choose to be amazonians and do not need his pr-ick as a protective wand.

But still, I fully understand the emotions. Coming from a stunted life in Karachi, devoid of any female interaction, coyote is eager to attempt ``save the female`` hero role (that he has seen so often in the horrible hindoo movies).

Sigalph etc.

This was not fishing in troubled water. It was to point out that sharks (read Sarwari) are already in this troubled water waiting for new victims.

This woman, (and her moron friend) repeatedly claim their A and O level education as license to write any junk. I do not have a word to describe that other than the one I used in my original post.

Otherwise, by what stretch of imagination can one shift blame for this tragedy and for whatever sewage pipe Pak is going though on Gandhi?

Tomorrow, another person will come and write that God, Allah, Ishwar, or whoever he is, is responsible for World Trade Center Bombing and for the troubles of Pakistan.

On second thoghts, I can also call author a Murda-farosh. As what she is doing is trying to sell these dead bodies for her perverse narrow objectives.



Regards

PS: Zahra #: 82

Oh so you are the one who told Sadna that she is not ``a lady`` . Should I translate that for you in Urdu and explain the meaning? How is that different from what I wrote?

Dear sweetie, why, in this age of internet and equal opportunity, it is ok for you to say that and not ok for me to do the same?

Re: Zafar

``...In India the flirtation with exclusionary Hindu nationalism as a convenient lowest-common-denominator path to power is, in most though not all places, not yet dominant - but the people and groups it is empowering have the capacity (and the world view) to do to India what Jehadis have done to Pakistan...I think that it is vital for the country to examine it before it corrupts India...``

You are absolutely right (I hope that I could have put it better, but could not match your wisdom). Indeed, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance -- and the Bajrang Dals/VHP are simply Taleban clones in different robes. They are the biggest threat today to India`s secularist polity, not any other group. They have the potential to polarize Indian society, and they can appeal to the most crass Hindu emotions, and play on Hindu insecurities. While any one community in India can damage our secular fabric of society, the one that can cause the most damage is the one that wields the weight of numbers. What is happening in our neighborhood can indeed have the most undesirable consequences within India, and it will require the collective wisdom of all groups/communities to pull through the after shocks when the dust settles in Afghanistan, but none bear a bigger responsibility than the Hindus. At a very minimum, the extreme Hindu elements need to be tempered. Any ideas on how to do this? Elections, press freedom, and a large middle class are the obvious bulwarks against a recession to the corruption that you warn us about. But equally important, are education and tolerance.