Caught In Between

What a Delusional Bunch

Sadna latest:

` I too think, like you that sarwari and ylh and other Pakistanis who obsess over India and Gandhi at such a critical time`

Yes indeed, YLH and sarwari are the ones on a predominantly Indian site trying to prove that India is behind the terrorists right?

For God`s sake... is there no sense of fairness or justice? Did we start the attack?

The truth is clear, India and Indians are obsessed with Pakistan which is abundantly clear from the responses on this board.

As for Gandhi, clearly Aisha`s inference to Gandhi in her artice was a response to Udaykumar`s stupid article...

Re:

Sarwari writes …….

“ Islamic fundamentalists who vigorously supported Mahatma Gandhi, such as the Ali brothers shouted anti-Pakistan statements before Pakistan was made. Pakistan was helpless in keeping these people out of Pakistan. These fundamentalists of Gandhi’s genre who thought religion as an inseparable part of politics became the religious leaders of Pakistan. They let all rules of dissent die in midair, they forgot that they once declared a fatwa asking the Muslims to follow Gandhi as their leader, they forgot that there is no clergy in Islam, they selectively ignored that progress and education go hand in hand, and like the people who attacked America yesterday acted to answer the call to Allah but forgot human dignity. “”


Ms Sarwari – you’re facts are wrong in this case…… The Ali Brothers were neither fundamentalist nor anti –Pakistan – Maulana Muhammad Ali Jauhar and Maulana Shaukhat Ali were one of the stalwarts of the Muslim League…( Maulana was a general honorific like Pandit – they were not religious clerics) .- They were not just pro_pakistan but they had pan_Islamic ideals and were very progressive ….. It was Gandhi and the Congress that cooperated with the Muslim League viz a Viz the Khalifaat movement after WWI … Maulana Mohd Ali’s urdu weekly Hamdard was the leading publication in Muslim India for over two decades….. ….

The Muslims leaders that supported Congress like Asaf Ali, Rafi kidwai, MAH Ansari, Zakir Hussain, Abul Kalam Azad, MC Chagla were also not fundamentalists – there were also very progressive Muslim leaders - There was a difference of opinion amongst the Muslim leadership – the Congress supporters believed that the Muslims would have been better served as a larger entity in a democratic india ….

In certain cases it divided families …….. Dr Zakir Hussain’s ( President of India) brother moved to Pakistan - Dr Mahmud Hussain and founded Karachi University ( first Vice Chancellor) ) ….. Chief Justice (india) M Hidayatullah was the Uncle of Begum Shaista Ikramullah Suhrawardy ( first female member in the NA of Pakistan) …
Similar Lt Gen Shahibzada Yaqub Khan ( FM pakistan) brother served in the Indian Army…….

The Muslims clerics namely the Barelvi’s and Deobandis were a very regressive force in Indian politics……Jinnah bypassed them in his effort for Pakistan…..Ironically the man Abul Ala maudoodi who was most responsible for the renaissance of Islamic thought – and perhaps one of the foremost scholars of modern Islam was also its most bigoted politican - after initially oposssing Pakistan he moved over to Lahore to head the JUI and its bigotry against the Ahmediyya’s and the whole concept of the theocratic state ……

Asfand,

People like you are a rare sight. Thank you.

:)

Aisha

Satyavardi

Your concern for Pakistan is heart warming. - How Come Hindu fanatics were begging to be used? How come the Indians were jumping all over the place to be noticed, to be taken seriously? Pakistan really did not need this problem, we have way too many problmes as it is.

Dynamic policies are in keeping with realities. It`s clear this burns you people. Once again your only argument is we are 1 billion - yawn! hear us meow. OK, we got it, honestly, we know you are big, now if you would just behave like it. Compare yourselves with China, they are more worthy of your ``Mo betta`` routine.

You Hindu fanatics used to lecture us on real politk - Instead of wondering whether I am a bigot or not, first look into why so many of you Indians stood silently while Hindu fanatics on these boards sought to incite hatred by suggesting Pakistan was behind this tragedy - repeated calls for saner voices to hold these fanatics in check fell on deaf ears - now you care about Pakistan? - OK sure.

Ok , Ok - You are more American than others, Your heart is so full of sorrow, it makes you want to take advantage of Pakistan, you are more everything - OK? - Criticizing Pakistani policies is one thing, openly attacking muslims and Islam? what planet are you on???

In America thousands of people perished in a act of mass murder, yet the leadership, the media, all segments of society are calling for respect for the safety and rights of law abiding Muslims, calling for an end to bigotry, you, sorry excuses, seek to place blame for this tragedy on Muslims and call for a war on Muslims? Because you care for the interests of Americans or because of your behavior in Captive Kashmir?



Stuka, Rsaxsena

Now he is a Rajput - when it suits you people, everybody is a Hindu, even Sikhs - Now, he is a rajput. OK - fine - Laugh all the way to the back of the bus. Git!

Why can`t you people just be normal? You always need to come across as more of everything, just mo betta, than the Pakistani - I don`t really understand this need to to be more better than Pakistanis - I give you that you excell over pakistanis in all ways, except one, we are better crooks - why are you people not secure with who you say you are? U B U - it will be OK!

You would have an undertanding neighbor in Pakistan, if you were not, it seems congentially, against Pakistan; It`s almost as if there is nothing that Pakistan can do that is positive. All your moves it seems must first be measured by, and are good, only if it do Pakistan harm? You are 12 times the size of Pakistan and you still refuse to admit to yourself that you measure yourself against us. - I really, really do not understand this attitude, especially in this terrible situation.

ylh #165

``Yes indeed, YLH and sarwari are the ones on a predominantly Indian site trying to prove that India is behind the terrorists right?``

Beta Yaseer,

Are you implying that chowk is a pakistani site? Naa, beta naa, chowk wale tumhe bahut baint lagaenge.

``sarawari`s thesis``

Beta yaseer, do you call this a thesis in holy land? Khuda tumhe salamat rakhe ..) Aise hi thesis likhte raho.

Sadna,

It is not bullying. Interactors with whom I have acted in an extra friendly manner are those who have shown such behavior themselves at several occasions.

Anyway, if you want me to rephrase, I find Sarwari and her gang are like vultures waiting for another body to drop from WTC so that they can feed on that and put blame on Gandhi.

Powll & Cheyne Are Two Experienced,Trustworthy ,Unlike Clinton & Reagan typical American Mafiasco,Highway Robbers,& Dick Morris ,Toe Sucker !!

TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 18, 2001

THE TIMES OF INDIA







US sensitive to Pak problems: Powell







ASHINGTON: Pakistan is willing to take risks in the fight against terrorism despite internal problems, and there is no reason not to trust the Pakistanis, US Secretary of State Colin Powell has said.

He said in an interview to CBS-TV late Sunday night that the US was very sensitive to Pakistan`s internal situation.

In an interview to CNN, also on Sunday, Powell had said the US would take into account Pakistan`s sensitivities against involvement of India and Israel in any operation to deal with those responsible for the recent terror attacks in New York and Washington.

He said, ``So far the Pakistanis have been forthcoming`` in their reaction to the list the US gave them for what they could do to fight terrorism but ``we will see now what they are actually going to do when specific requests are put before them.``

He was asked about the threat of Musharraf government being toppled by ``Islamic fundamentalists`` because of its help to Washington and the worry that a new government that would have its finger on a nuclear button.

Powell said, ``We are very sensitive to that, and I know that President Musharraf is very sensitive to that. So in our conversations with the Pakistani government in the days and weeks ahead, we will be mindful of that.

Powell said if Pakistanis managed to get him, the US would see whether he could be tried under UN resolutions or Pakistani law. ``But let us not over speculate before anything has really happened``.

Powell said, ``they have internal problems that they are dealing with. But that was part of his (Pervez Musharraf`s) calculation as he and his senior advisors and military leaders sat down and examined this earlier in the week.``

He said that Pakistan government came to the judgement that even with the difficulty it might cause them internally this was such a problem they were willing to take risks. ``I compliment them for this.``

``So far, they have been forthcoming. They have given assurances to me, they have given assurances to President Bush. And we will see now what they are actually going to do when specific requests are put before them.

``We have had a strong relationship with Pakistan for many, many years. We have been friends of Pakistan and the Pakistani people for many, many years, and I hope that friendship will continue and the relationship will grow.``

To a question whether by announcing this, Pakistan was telling Laden to get out of the town, he said, ``We are very pleased with the role the Pakistani government is playing. We asked them for a variety of things, and I think it is best we keep those between the two governments at this time until we have an opportunity to see their reaction, and then it will all become public.``

( PTI )

Afsand:

That article reflects the truth. Instead of blaming the BJP, can you refute it by examples.

BTW, Syed Ahmed Khan had similar views about Islamic stagnation, therefore attempted to change it. Can you deny that Islamic society is governed by fear or the clergy, much more so than the Christian west?

A Hindu Fanatic

Hello Everyone,

The future, howsoever uncertain, need not be an era of Indo-Pak zero sum game as the past has been. The following closely reflects my own thinking - what may be good for Pakistan may be good for India too.

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/sep2001-daily/18-09-2001/main/main24.htm

Pakistan centerpiece of US strategy: Cohen

WASHINGTON: A tilt toward India has been stopped in mid-tracks as the United States finds itself, once again, in serious need of Pakistan`s assistance.

With last week`s attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, Pakistan has become a central focus of US diplomacy and war-planning, which has as its first goal rooting out suspected mastermind Osama bin Laden and his training camps in neighbouring Afghanistan.

The Bush administration is ``not going to dump India`` but for now, Pakistan is a centerpiece of US strategy, said South Asian expert Stephen Cohen of the Brookings Institution. Despite the risks, ``I think there could be tremendous beneficial effect (in South Asia) if this plays out well,`` Cohen said of the US approach.

``If Washington could persuade Islamabad to crush militant training camps in Pakistan, as well as in Afghanistan, that would change the nature of the insurgency in the disputed Himalayan region of Kashmir,`` he said. Hard-line Muslim fighters from Afghanistan and other countries ``with no interest in South Asia`` have joined the fight in Kashmir against India, displacing indigenous Kashmiris and complicating efforts to end the conflict, he said. If ``outsiders`` leave Kashmir, Pakistan and India might be drawn into a US-assisted peace process, Cohen said. He acknowledged things could go badly if Pakistan cannot crush the terrorist camps and Musharraf is ousted by a more radical regime.

Satyavadi,

What is the going rate for Indian Passport thses days.Too bad ,when i was selling it no buyers came forward.Dheet

Red faces over suspects’ Indian passports

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Swati Chaturvedi

(New Delhi, September 17)

An ``Indian connection`` with the bombing of the World Trade Center wasn`t something that the Indian government had bargained for.

Having watched with glee the heat being applied on Pakistan, it`s now the turn of the Indian government to squirm. For it turns out that two of the suspects caught in the US are believed to have Indian passports. With the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) asking the authorities here to come up with more information on the two, there are red faces in the Home Ministry.

The two suspects have identified themselves as Ayub Ali Khan and Mohammed Javeed Azmath and claim to be from India. Both are in their early 50s.

The FBI has told the Indian Government that the duo had ``fake-looking passports”. This scenario is similar to the hijack of Indian Airlines flight IC-814 where four of the hijackers had procured passports through touts. Ostensibly, the system had been overhauled and new checks introduced. However, as the latest case proves, it is still relatively easy to fool the system.

Says a senior official at the Research and Analysis Wing: ``If this turns out to be a case of security lapse, we will really have egg on our face after all our pious pronouncements on terrorism.” What officials really fear is that the two could be Arabs or Pakistanis who took advantage of the touts to get passports. It`s almost a replay of Kandahar as the suspects there had also managed to get passports issued using fake names very easily.

At that point the Home Ministry had debated how to make the system foolproof. Sources say while the situation has improved in Delhi, other passport offices continue to be plagued by touts.

Fake Indians?

* Ayub Ali Khan and Mohammed Azmath picked up from Amtrak train

* Caught with box cutters, hair dye and $5,000

* Claim to be from Gorakhpur and Bangalore

* They could be Arabs or Pakistanis who got passports through touts

* Theirs and Kandahar hijackers’ case could stamp India as a haven for fake passport seekers





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Indiagifthouse.com

OUTCOME SCENARIOS,

At last the war machinery is moving into place. The ultimate devils in the islamic eyes are going to occupy the land created in the name of islam, created in the belief that muslims cannot live with any other religion, the TNT.

This is really an occupation force of the kafirs, ironically welcomed by the islamic leaders, the rulers of the land of the pure. And the final coup dedegrac of all, they kafir army will be fighting thje true islamic jihadists.

After the war, the jihadists are expected to take over pakistan, and there will be a strong reaction to the weapons of mass distruction coming to the jihadic hands. This should bring india into picture, may be a terrible price, but iraquisation will be the outcome.

re: Syed Ahmed # 166

``Ironically the man Abul Ala maudoodi who was most responsible for the renaissance of Islamic thought – and perhaps one of the foremost scholars of modern Islam was also its most bigoted politican``

That is such an interesting bit of information. IMO, it speaks to a broader phenomenon that needs much greater attention than it has received.

At an abstract level, the key question is: How do people who propound most modern, scholarly versions of religion at a theoretical level support the most regressive and bigoted practices at the practical, ground level?

The answer to this question may well be central to our understanding the dialetic of how religious moblizations and revolutions occur, and why they invariably fail.

India with a feeble bid ,lose to Pakistan.India Peved,spreading nasty RUMOUR About PAK -Us Alliance!



Keep India, Israel out: Pak

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ISLAMABAD

PAKISTAN has told the United States that it was against involving India and Israel in any military operation in Afghanistan to hunt down Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, prime suspect in terrorist strikes in America, CNN reported on Sunday.

Quoting sources close to president Pervez Musharraf, the American TV network said that Pakistan has also made it clear that it would not allow US forces to use its soil and any operation in Afghanistan should be limited to use of airspace only.

The sources said Pakistan was against involvement of India and Israel in any military action. (PTI)

``India is also a terrorist state: Musharraf

IANS

(Islamabad, September 17)



Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf, determined to keep out New Delhi from any US-led coalition against Afghanistan, has said India has been promoting terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir.

Online news agency quoted Musharraf as telling a group of political leaders here late Sunday that Pakistan would be ``with those fighting terrorism. This is our principled stand and we are proud of it.

``We can better understand terrorism as we are a target of the same evil. India is involved in state terrorism in Kashmir and we are facing the menace in our own country,`` he said.

It was the first time since the September 11 terror attacks in New York and Washington that killed thousands that Musharraf has spoken publicly about India.

He justified his military government`s decision to support the US in its war against Afghanistan, where Saudi renegade Osama bin Laden - the prime suspect in the bombings of the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon - lives. Pakistan has been a strong backer of Afghanistan`s ruling Taliban militia.

``I have kept the national interest high and above all my decisions. All decisions have been taken in the best interests of the country,`` he told a group of leaders drawn from all political parties.

He said the decision to support the US was not his individual perception ``but taken after a thorough consideration``.

He said his government would continue to seize illegal weapons held across the country.

``This is all a fight against terrorism. The operation is aimed at eliminating a culture that has been root cause of sectarian and ethnic violence. I assure you all, the government is determined to root out the evil.``

Mr. Ahmed

Thank you for your input. Just because someone becomes a key person of Religious, Political or even educational institution in Pakistan does not undo the bigotry they showed before. These people were not even sincere to their own words so why would they be to Pakistan. And if you recall I didn`t only talk of these so called Ali brothers, I referred to their kind.

What do you say of this?

``To establish the hard core of Islam that ``I`m a Muslim first and a Muslim last``, the book starts off with Mahatma Gandhi - Ali Brothers` alliance (holy or unholy) during the Khilafat movement. These Ali Brothers (maulana Mohammed Ali and Maulana Shaukat Ali) who, as politicians, readily bent down to kiss Bapu`s feet and hailed him ``the most Christ-like man of our times``, has the cheek to say at Aligarh and Ajmer: ``However pure Mr gandhi`s character may be, he must appear to me from the point of view of religion, inferior to any Mussalman though he be without character``. (p.23)

Even after this statement of Mohammed Ali ``created a great stir`` (wrote Ambedkar) the Maulana remained unruffled. Asked during another speech at Aminabad Park, Lucknow whether his sentiments were really true, he not only reconfirmed it but went a step further: ``Yes, according to my religion and creed, I do hold an adulterous and a fallen Mussalman to be better than Mr Gandhi``. (p. 24)``

http://www.indolink.com/Book/book33.html

It is a mistake to call these people pro Pakistan, or progressive. In my opinion these poeple are the vampires that thrive on Pakistan`s life-blood.

Aisha Sarwari

Hobbyty:

Thank for that article. Musharraf`s ability to be authentic never ceases to amaze me.



I don`t think Indians realize that the way they blow their negative diplomacy on the face of the media, actually goes against them. When Pakistan was put in the spot where India wanted, after the nuclear tests, Pakistan acknowledged their position and tried to maintain the role they had. There was hardly talk of badmouthing India in the eyes of the Americans. America calls a spade a spade. This is not a time for personal insinuations but for recognizing that peace in this region is a good thing even if it means sharing a little spotlight for a while.

Aisha



Pak pledge to cooperate with US jitters India

By Amir Mateen

WASHINGTON: Pakistan`s pledge of cooperation with the US has caused jitters in New Delhi, which is rushing its National Security Advisor Brajesh Mishra and External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh to Washington to find about the nature of the Pak-US ``deal``.

US sources confirm that Mishra is expected to land in Washington on Tuesday followed closely by Jaswant Singh. Mishra is likely to be received by his counterpart, National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice.

India is having nightmares about Pakistan extracting American pledges on Kashmir. It also wants a role in Afghanistan and expects a major role in the event of Pakistan chickening out in the wake of its domestic compulsions. Now India is making fuss over the alleged ``conditionalities`` that Pakistan may have put forward for helping out the Americans. But Washington is happy to play one against the other.

A report in The New York Times says India will allow its military bases to be used in a possible attack on Afghanistan, ``an offer that provides the United States with a new degree of strategic flexibility and additional leverage to elicit a similar commitment from neighbouring Pakistan.``

``Indian officials have not publicly discussed their decision, apparently out of fear that it might inflame the country`s Muslim minority,`` says The Times. But the Indian officials have privately told the United States that, if requested, they will allow US troops and equipment to be temporarily based on Indian soil for the first time in the country`s history, says the report.

The United States has not yet formally asked for the use of any Indian facilities. One reason may have been Pakistan`s request of keeping the Indians out. The secretary of state said on Sunday that he was mindful of Pakistan`s sensitivities on India and Israel.

US military analysts on TV networks say the offer provides the US commanders with a nearby back-up location for ground forces should Pakistan balk at allowing in US combat units. Staging ground troops in India could pose a challenge, however, because India and Afghanistan do not share a border. Any troops based in India likely would have to be transported by air over Pakistan.

But the NY Times says Indian air bases could play a role in housing fighter planes and refuelling long-range bombers. It says Indian intelligence services could provide valuable information to US commanders. What peeves the Indians the most is that this development has come in the middle of the growing Indo-US honeymoon.

After this development, Pakistan seems to be back on the driving seat by the sheer reason of its strategic position in that region. This is something hard to digest for New Delhi. Indian media says that Mishra and Jaswant would be telling Washington that New Delhi would not appreciate any ``unprincipled deal`` with Islamabad. The decision to send Mishra, who is now in Moscow, to Washington for discussions was also conveyed by Vajpayee to President Bush.

India is trying to build a case that the US, instead of striking a deal with Pakistan, should join hands with New Delhi in fighting it out with Pakistan and Afghanistan. ``This is not the time to bargain. Either you are committed to fighting terrorism or bargaining to achieve your narrow interests,`` a local Indian magazine writes this as Mishra`s message for Washington.