Caught In Between

Akash,

Try reading `Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi` spanning over 30 volumes. You will see how true Aisha`s assertions are.

Sigalph,

Those who have said stuff like that are shameless buggers... maybe because `nameless` people are also very shameless..... since they are often born out of wedlock.

-YLH

Maybe the real `Jism faroshes` and the real nameless children of `Hira Mandi` will not be intellectually honest enough to answer the following questions:

Those who have questioned the relevance and logic of Aisha`s Historical assertions please answer the following questions:

1) Did Mahatma Gandhi or didnt he support the Khilafat Movement which was a religious Movement for the preservation of an age old institution which was a curse for Muslims itself?

2) Did the Deobandis by consensus not support the Congress Party and opposed the creation of Pakistan? If not then what was the role of Jamiat e Ulema Hind, Majlis e Ahrar, Khudai Khidmatgars, and the Jamaat e Islami?

3) Wasnt Pakistan Movement spearheaded by Ex-Congressites and Modernists usually known as supporters of Hindu Muslim Unity? If thats not true, what were the back grounds of Jinnah, Chundrigar, Khaliquzzamman, Dr Barkat Ali, Liaqat, etc?

4) Some of you have sought to bring up the direct action day? Kindly explain to me why violence broke out in a Hindu Majority city while the rest of the country particularly Muslim Majority areas were peaceful and had simple disobedience?

5) If Jinnah`s call for Direct Action Day supposedly caused the massacres and he is responsible, then the violence that was caused by the non cooperation movement.. like Chaura Chauri,

Moplah Uprising, Killing and kidnapping of the British, acts of terrorism etc falls in the lap of Mahatma Gandhi... as do the exploits of the Quit India Movement?

Sadna:

You say,`` btw, I asked a simple question some boards ago and didnot get an answer: The manly Jinnah and his heroic Muslim League created a new nation which the fundamentalist Deobandis and the fundamentalist Gandhi opposed. If that was the case, what was the post-Independence(1947-2001) record of the Muslim League in Pakistan wrt religion, legislation related to religion and its record of upholding secularism in Pakistan? ``

If those fanatics would have stayed in India the larger Hindu fanatic fish would have swallowed them whole. Those later grew to become the Chachas of Pakistan. Rafiq Tarar`s father was from the Ahrar Party. How ironic is that? What India`s religious movement sowed we have to reap.

Needless to say it is a failure in our institutions that we didn`t crush them. But then again could you crush someone who uses religion to mobilize masses. NO... why? because they had `good intentions` and `God was on their side`.

Like Gandhi these people bread fanatics they are not so themselves. A generation later we see the offspring...and by that time History has comfortably settled in with the greater ones.

Aisha

NEWSFLASH

WTC Bombing Investigations take a STARTLING TURN

CNN: A group of FBI officers have made a startling revelation that Osama and Talibans are innocent. This scandal came into light during interrogation with two young Pakis namely Yahweh Hamdani and his girlfriend Ms Sarwari who got caught in an objectionable position inside a car. They revealed that the real man behind the attacks is Gandhi. He still lives in the jungles of Amazon and runs his large network thru his agents like Osama, Mulla Omar etc. Thru yogic practices he was able to live this long. USAF is preparing to launch an air strike at the suspected place in Amazon valley. President Bush will soon deliver his previous speech with the word ``Gandhi`` replacing Laden. Specifically Prez would proudly announce that Gandhi would be ``smoked`` out of his hole and brought to justice

anarayan

I hadn`t noticed it was supposed to be ``secular`` not ``democratic`` I assumed in a democracy the people matter and in that should have been enough for the government to take a harsher stand on the Babri Mosque. Or on the Hindus brutally killing Australian Priests.

Correct me if I am wrong. Perhaps India terms democracy differently. Given the events, I guess it terms ``secular`` in different contexts too.

Aisha

In DAWN

http://www.dawn.com/2001/09/16:

``Government puts a price on cooperation with US over terror attacks: ISLAMABAD, Sept 16: Government is planning to extract maximum financial benefit from its decision to extend its full support to a US-led campaign against international terrorism. Finance Minister Shaukat Aziz said he was confident that the Islamabad government`s backing for a campaign which could involve military action against neighbouring Afghanistan would have economic benefits. (AFP) (Posted @ 23:50 PST) ``

Another Pakistani selling his mother for few bucks!! This time the whole army leadership is selling their mothers.

``Islamic fundamentalists who vigorously supported Mahatma Gandhi, such as the Ali brothers shouted anti-Pakistan statements before Pakistan was made. Pakistan was helpless in keeping these people out of Pakistan. These fundamentalists of Gandhi’s genre who thought religion as an inseparable part of politics became the religious leaders of Pakistan. They let all rules of dissent die in midair, they forgot that they once declared a fatwa asking the Muslims to follow Gandhi as their leader, they forgot that there is no clergy in Islam, they selectively ignored that progress and education go hand in hand, and like the people who attacked America yesterday acted to answer the call to Allah but forgot human dignity.``

You have to be quiet paranoid to say this means I believe Gandhi is responsible for the fundamentalism in Pakistan...If Gandhi`s majority Muslim supporters were fundoo there must have seen something they could easily relate to... Kindly stop acting out your worst fears.

News report:

Pakistani army has reportedly agreed to handover its Baluchistan airport to US forces.

This is one reason why Americans like to support dictatorship in all troubled countries.

The Miami Herald:

Published Sunday, September 16, 2001

Afghanistan`s neighbor to south is in tight spot

BY FRANK DAVIES

fdavies@herald.com

WASHINGTON -- Pakistan, a ``crucial player`` in U.S. plans to mount a war against terrorism, appears sincere in its promises to assist the United States, but will face major strains in doing so, said the two Floridians who head the Intelligence committees in Congress.

Sen. Bob Graham and Rep. Porter Goss, who met with top Pakistani officials in Islamabad for three days two weeks ago, said in separate interviews that this fragile alliance will be under severe strain.

Securing Pakistan`s support, without touching off a fundamentalist Islamic backlash in that country, ``makes for an extremely delicate, difficult situation,`` said Graham, a Democrat.

Pakistan is the home of powerful Islamic fundamentalists and boasts close ties to the ruling Taliban in Afghanistan and Osama bin Laden, a prime suspect in Tuesday`s attacks on New York and Washington.

Under increasing pressure from the Bush administration, Pakistan`s military government agreed Saturday to close its 1,560-mile border with Afghanistan, where bin Laden and his operations have been sheltered, and allow multinational forces to use its territory and air space.

The country has 140 million people, huge economic problems, a history of instability -- and nuclear weapons.

``We have to be extremely sensitive to the domestic impact [in Pakistan] of what we do, and their economic situation,`` said Goss, a Republican from Sanibel.

Graham and Goss have more recent insight than their visit. On Tuesday, the two were having breakfast with a top Pakastani intelligence official when word came of the terrorist attacks.

``The military government is ready to help, but any operation there won`t be easy,`` said Goss. ``We saw the terrain in Pakistan and into Afghanistan -- it`s a huge problem, almost impassable.``

The Floridians visited the famous Khyber Pass between the two countries, met with President Pervez Musharraf and other top leaders, and heard an earful about Pakistan`s conflict with India over the disputed Kashmir region.

``I did not realize the depth of their animosity with India until I spent time with them,`` said Graham. ``But Pakistan is crucial for us -- just look at the map.``

The threat of a nuclear conflict between India and Pakistan ``is a big worry,`` said Goss, and another reason for the trip. But now U.S. plans for a sustained war against terrorism overshadow everything.

Graham noted that Pakistan had been a U.S. ally during the Cold War, receiving substantial military assistance, but in recent years has resented U.S. economic sanctions brought on by Pakistan`s nuclear weapons development.

``They can`t even get spare parts,`` said Graham. ``They took us on French-made helicopters because the American ones can`t get parts.``

``They think we`ve been fair-weather friends, so there`s work to be done,`` he added.

Some of that work occurred this week.

Graham said the Pakistani intelligence official with whom he met, a top general in the government, was forced to stay all week in Washington because of the shutdown of air traffic.

``He was marooned here, and I think that gave Secretary of State Powell and others in the administration a chance to really talk with him,`` Graham said.



Dawn:

CONDEMNED: Leaders of various Muslim and Christian organizations on Saturday condemned the plane attacks in America, urged the government to support all American steps against terrorists and asked the US administration to protect its Muslim citizens.

Speaking at a news conference at the Lahore Press Club, they urged the government to support the American government at all levels in fighting the terrorists and stick to its resolve of extending cooperation in this connection.

The religious leaders urged President Gen Pervez Musharraf to announce a day`s mourning over the tragedy in America. They also urged the American government to ensure protection of its Muslim population and their religious places.

The news conference was addressed by Pope John Paul`s Advisor for Asia Father James Channan, Universal Peace and Harmony chairman Maulana Abdul Qadir Azad, Jamiat Ahle Sunnat Punjab president Maulana Husain Ahmad Awan, Tehrik Huqooq-i-Jafria chairman Maulana Mushtaq Jafri, Tehrik-i-Wahdat Islami amir Maulana Javed Akbar Saqi and Universal Peace and Harmony general secretary Bishop Azad Marshal.

Meanwhile, leaders of a number of parties here have received invitations for an all-party conference to be held by the government in Islamabad on Sunday. ARD President Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan is among them.

The invited leaders will first participate in the JI`s APC conference at Mansoora and then proceed to the federal capital to take part in the government-sponsored conference

The Miami Herald:

Published Sunday, September 16, 2001

Afghanistan`s neighbor to south is in tight spot

BY FRANK DAVIES

fdavies@herald.com

WASHINGTON -- Pakistan, a ``crucial player`` in U.S. plans to mount a war against terrorism, appears sincere in its promises to assist the United States, but will face major strains in doing so, said the two Floridians who head the Intelligence committees in Congress.

Sen. Bob Graham and Rep. Porter Goss, who met with top Pakistani officials in Islamabad for three days two weeks ago, said in separate interviews that this fragile alliance will be under severe strain.

Securing Pakistan`s support, without touching off a fundamentalist Islamic backlash in that country, ``makes for an extremely delicate, difficult situation,`` said Graham, a Democrat.

Pakistan is the home of powerful Islamic fundamentalists and boasts close ties to the ruling Taliban in Afghanistan and Osama bin Laden, a prime suspect in Tuesday`s attacks on New York and Washington.

Under increasing pressure from the Bush administration, Pakistan`s military government agreed Saturday to close its 1,560-mile border with Afghanistan, where bin Laden and his operations have been sheltered, and allow multinational forces to use its territory and air space.

The country has 140 million people, huge economic problems, a history of instability -- and nuclear weapons.

``We have to be extremely sensitive to the domestic impact [in Pakistan] of what we do, and their economic situation,`` said Goss, a Republican from Sanibel.

Graham and Goss have more recent insight than their visit. On Tuesday, the two were having breakfast with a top Pakastani intelligence official when word came of the terrorist attacks.

``The military government is ready to help, but any operation there won`t be easy,`` said Goss. ``We saw the terrain in Pakistan and into Afghanistan -- it`s a huge problem, almost impassable.``

The Floridians visited the famous Khyber Pass between the two countries, met with President Pervez Musharraf and other top leaders, and heard an earful about Pakistan`s conflict with India over the disputed Kashmir region.

``I did not realize the depth of their animosity with India until I spent time with them,`` said Graham. ``But Pakistan is crucial for us -- just look at the map.``

The threat of a nuclear conflict between India and Pakistan ``is a big worry,`` said Goss, and another reason for the trip. But now U.S. plans for a sustained war against terrorism overshadow everything.

Graham noted that Pakistan had been a U.S. ally during the Cold War, receiving substantial military assistance, but in recent years has resented U.S. economic sanctions brought on by Pakistan`s nuclear weapons development.

``They can`t even get spare parts,`` said Graham. ``They took us on French-made helicopters because the American ones can`t get parts.``

``They think we`ve been fair-weather friends, so there`s work to be done,`` he added.

Some of that work occurred this week.

Graham said the Pakistani intelligence official with whom he met, a top general in the government, was forced to stay all week in Washington because of the shutdown of air traffic.

``He was marooned here, and I think that gave Secretary of State Powell and others in the administration a chance to really talk with him,`` Graham said.



Dawn:

CONDEMNED: Leaders of various Muslim and Christian organizations on Saturday condemned the plane attacks in America, urged the government to support all American steps against terrorists and asked the US administration to protect its Muslim citizens.

Speaking at a news conference at the Lahore Press Club, they urged the government to support the American government at all levels in fighting the terrorists and stick to its resolve of extending cooperation in this connection.

The religious leaders urged President Gen Pervez Musharraf to announce a day`s mourning over the tragedy in America. They also urged the American government to ensure protection of its Muslim population and their religious places.

The news conference was addressed by Pope John Paul`s Advisor for Asia Father James Channan, Universal Peace and Harmony chairman Maulana Abdul Qadir Azad, Jamiat Ahle Sunnat Punjab president Maulana Husain Ahmad Awan, Tehrik Huqooq-i-Jafria chairman Maulana Mushtaq Jafri, Tehrik-i-Wahdat Islami amir Maulana Javed Akbar Saqi and Universal Peace and Harmony general secretary Bishop Azad Marshal.

Meanwhile, leaders of a number of parties here have received invitations for an all-party conference to be held by the government in Islamabad on Sunday. ARD President Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan is among them.

The invited leaders will first participate in the JI`s APC conference at Mansoora and then proceed to the federal capital to take part in the government-sponsored conference

YLH....

1) Did Mahatma Gandhi or didnt he support the Khilafat Movement which was a religious Movement for the preservation of an age old institution which was a curse for Muslims itself?

Did the Khilafat movement give rise to the Taliban?

2) Did the Deobandis by consensus not support the Congress Party and opposed the creation of Pakistan? If not then what was the role of Jamiat e Ulema Hind, Majlis e Ahrar, Khudai Khidmatgars, and the Jamaat e Islami?

If the Deobandis were against the creation of Pakistan, how did they end up hijacking the Pakistan agenda after 1947? Was Gandhi responsibl e for that too?

3) Wasnt Pakistan Movement spearheaded by Ex-Congressites and Modernists usually known as supporters of Hindu Muslim Unity? If thats not true, what were the back grounds of Jinnah, Chundrigar, Khaliquzzamman, Dr Barkat Ali, Liaqat, etc?

If the Pakistan movement was headed by secularites, who introduced religion into the politics of modern day Pakistan? Gandhi? Was Gandhi responsible for the creation of the Taliban? Is Hamid Gul a supporter of Gandhi?

4) Some of you have sought to bring up the direct action day? Kindly explain to me why violence broke out in a Hindu Majority city while the rest of the country particularly Muslim Majority areas were peaceful and had simple disobedience?

How is Direct Action day relevant to the present situation of Pakistan?

5) If Jinnah`s call for Direct Action Day supposedly caused the massacres and he is responsible, then the violence that was caused by the non cooperation movement.. like Chaura Chauri,

Moplah Uprising, Killing and kidnapping of the British, acts of terrorism etc falls in the lap of Mahatma Gandhi... as do the exploits of the Quit India Movement?

Okay, they do. Now what? Gandhi was a moron, accepted. Is he responsible for all that plagues Pakistan? Will you tell the fundamentalists in your country that they are all misguided by Gandhi`s techings, and should therefore become secular moderate Muslims, the way Jinnah wanted?

To the interactors harping on aisha`s views and attacking her personally:

she has more balls than all of you combined for writing what she believes.

aisha,

Some sisterly advice:

Let go of India, Gandhi and subcontinental propaganda. Pakistan has enough problems of it`s own to be crying over India at a time like this.

Let`s instead, use our energies to encourage Pakistan to clean it`s closets, and helping the victims of these terrorist attacks however we can.

-- Jism-farosh and freedom of expression --

Great,

So people took umbrage to my use of word ``jism-farosh``. Some people even take this as an attack on freedom of speach and expression.

Dear Chowkies, wow that I have your attention, I must clarify. First, Author has used her freedom of expression to write this piece. You will certainly allow me to express freely what I feel about this piece and the author (don`t say that I can opine about an interactor, resident shronk has been doing that for ages).

Second, I am not accusing Aisha to be a jism-farosh. A jism-farosh has a reason for what he/she does. It is due to some compulsion. He/she is a victim. I am accusing Aisha of engaging in prostitution of mind. What I find deplorable is that she is deliberately trying to use a human tragedy of gigantic proportions to fulfill her narrow agenda. Sad part is that her agenda in in line with that of perpetrators of this crime.

And, some of her backers, Ras and YLH to be precise, should go in the category that I mentioned at the end of my last post. They are the people who are taking her in that direction.

I could have written perhaps lot more on this. And perhaps I will write whenever time will permit.

PS: Zahra, are you same ``rose-bud`` Zahra who was banding against Sadna`s freedom of expression in thread related with religion. If yes, please note the contradiction between your attitude than and now. If not, than my apologies, perhaps you are the saner one.

Change of Tone in Washington

White House officials who were threatening all their opponents throughout

the world with destruction for the past few days after the complicated and

mysterious attacks on New York and Washington changed their tone

yesterday. In other words, remarks such as ``We have a full-scale war

ahead, and we will achieve victory with the help of our allies`` have now

turned into statements like ``We will bring those behind the attacks to

justice.``

What are the reasons for such a change of tone and attempts at giving a

legal appearance to the U.S. military campaign? The response by some U.S.

allies to Washington`s request for their military cooperation helps to

explain this change of tone. Egypt and Pakistan officially said that they

would cooperate to fight terrorism only under the supervision of the

United Nations. However, U.S. Secretary of State General Collin Powel had

formerly said that Pakistani President General Pervez Musharraf had

promised him on the phone that the entire facilities of Pakistan would be

at the service of the U.S. government. What is the reason for the

difference between Pakistan`s official position and its private stance on

the issue?

Pakistan, which once thought that by helping the U.S.-backed forces in

Afghanistan it can strengthen its position in that country and enjoy

Washington`s aid, is facing a crisis under the present circumstances. This

is because Islamabad does not have the maneuvering power possessed by the

White House. The United States once projected bin Laden as a hero to

justify its interference in Afghanistan`s internal affairs through him.

But today the interests of the U.S. capitalists require that bin Laden be

portrayed as a devil through U.S. propaganda. Pakistan is not able to

justify such U-turns in the eyes of its people. Consequently,

contradictory remarks are made by the government of General Musharraf. On

the one hand, General Powel has been promised that Pakistan would provide

all its facilities to the United States. And on the other hand, Pakistani

officials officially announce at a press conference that any cooperation

would be possible at the request of the United Nations.

Reply: Gowardhan

Boss, tum itne popularity contests kaise jeet-the ho? Zafar

Friend:

I raised my concern as I cannot believe anyone having the nerve to write BS like you wrote at this time. Beyond that you and your arguments are not worth my or anyone`s time!

Get a life!