Caught In Between

I have a very hard time understanding why the hell would a certain group in the clergy in Pakistan even consider Talibaans as ``saints/heroes`` in anyway or shape? Have not they seen the outcome of that nation? It`s ended in:

- Beggary
- Silent Prostitution
- Poverty
- Distraught Masses
- Drugeees(Afeemis)
- Manic Disorder
- Retarded Country
- Chaos

Why? I cannot comprehend that. It`s a damn irony that ``a certain group in clergy`` cannot comprehend the difference one can make: positively and negatively. Why would they like to lead Pakistan into a pathetic state like Afghanistan? Are they even the well-wishers of Pakistan?

If they want to lead Pakistan into that ``disaster`` then for Pakistan`s own solidarity and life, these elements need to be sent to some black hole for good. We do not need such ``retarded`` clergy who cannot distinguish between good and bad. Our belief does not need the support of such bufoons who are ready to sink the pyari and masoom boat of our beloved Pakistan into a ditch of chaos. Which religion asks its followers to lead the masses into chaos and let them die sniffing afeem? This is simply disgusting!

Yes, Pakistan is ``Caught In Between`` - But probably that`s an opportunity in disguise to get rid of the cancer/leeches. Let`s hope for the best; and pray.

Aisha AOA,
I could not have said it better!
Where else did you send this to?

I am waiting for the Chinese response at the UN.

You wrote:

``So, the people who did this are fighting a losing battle, they will never win. Whoever they are, they may have put an end to the breath of many but they can never put an end to faith before the murder.``

Very well expressed thoughts. It was large scale murder.
BUT AMERCA NEEDS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE NOT RUSHING THINGS AND ARE GOING AFTER THE RIGHT PEOPLE!
(America has messed up royally in Afghanistan twice before).

Ras

Thats right, Babri Masjid and India are the burdensome crosses Pakistan has to bear, like its old friend US has to bear WTC and Bin Laden. Afghans are unfortunately inspired by India, so they are trying out pure Islam.

Mahatma Gandhi, the so-called democratic nation India, the demolition of Babri Masjid, chicanery of US and Russia. The Pakistani nation, the Pakistani Army, the Pakistani public and Pakistani Islam, all these heavenly and innocent entities are unable to realise their true destiny because they beset with the above mentioned evils.

The saintly Pakistani nation, in addition is suffering, (though currently ruled over by its own Army) under the stranglehold of the Indian Army in Kashmir.

bottomline: East or West, US or Pakistan, WTC or Babri, who is responsible? India, Indians and Gandhi are responsible. Bravo. This must warm the cockles of the true patriots here, they can sleep easy now, and leave it for tomorrow to convince the US that they are looking at the wrong border and wrong nation to wipe out.

Try fax`ing this to them, it may be faster. Need a number? Turn to CNN and look at the ticker at the bottom.

btw, I asked a simple question some boards ago and didnot get an answer: The manly Jinnah and his heroic Muslim League created a new nation which the fundamentalist Deobandis and the fundamentalist Gandhi opposed. If that was the case, what was the post-Independence(1947-2001) record of the Muslim League in Pakistan wrt religion, legislation related to religion and its record of upholding secularism in Pakistan?

Interesting article, Aisha.

Pakistan is not caught between anything and if it was, it was due to its own choice. Pakistan should realize, as the corps commanders did, that the parameters of the international diplomacy have changed and what is past will remain just that - a past.

Now, in the new emerging scenrio of international politics, which is a blend of Realpolitik and unilateralism, nations have to decide how best to preserve and promote their future interests regardless of ideological or religious nuances. Pakistan`s assent to the American requests/demands was made on the sole criteria of what ensures Pakistan`s existence as a nation state. Period. Pakistan has adopted a ``re-think`` in its foreign policy, which is predicated on the premise that Islamabad will adopt those policies, which serve the interests of Pakistan.

As to Kashmir and the usual litany of complaints against India, Pakistan`s only concern in acting on the American ``recommendations`` was to prevent a distinct shift in the American policy, vis a vis South Asia, in India`s favor if Pakistan was not forth coming.

This in itself suggests that Pakistan is likely to follow a secularist national interest oriented policies within the political gambit of this crisis. For the first time, a major Pakistani foreign policy decision was not motivated by ideological (cold war) rationale or a religious obligation, but on principle of how to secure the interests of Pakistan in a zero sum regional environment.

Pakistani foreign policy has undergone a paradigm change and its has assumed a realistic approach towards the emerging regional and international consequences of September 11, 2001.

Ciao

To all Chowkwallahs, please read the article listed.

www.janes.com/regional_news/americas/news/jdw/jdw010914_1_n.shtml

Ciao

Looks like another article talking about the ``greatness`` of Pakistan couched in the long standing Pakistani hatred for India and anything Indian.

Nothing is going to change in Pakistan until it gets over it`s constitutional definition: ``Pakistan is not India``. Hatred for another country is just not enough to build a country.

Another garbage article from a dirty little hypocrite who screams about being nothing more than a Pakistani patriot but who can never write without references to India. More proof of her inferiority complex.

If Pakistan is caught in a rat hole, what does it have to do with India? If the US makes Pakistan bend over time and again, what does it have to with India? If the world believes Pakistan houses and is buddies with terrorists, what does it have to do with India? If Pakistan is not a secular country, what does it have to do with India? If Pakistan can`t sustain a democracy, what does it have to with India? NOTHING. So why does the garbage you have written have constant references to India?

Oh, and one more thing, please take a grammar class while you`re at presitigious San Jose State.

Excellent. Subanallah. Keep writing and thinking like this so my dream of a destroyed Pakistan becomes a reality soon.

I think Pakistan can utilize this sudden bonus to advance pakistan. We should help for destruction of fanatics of Afghanistan. We should ask billions of dollars from usa to carryout needed support operations for USA and Western countries. This will help to stabilize the country going through financial difficulties. Also if Afghan extremists are defeated, Afghan king can agree to Durand line. The treaty expired in 1993 and Taliban has steadifastly refuse to respect Durand line. Taliban get into troubles due to their arrogance. If Durand line is not accepted Afghans will always try to get area west of Sindhu river. This good time to make sure after installation of new Afghan govt. they agree to Durand line. And this message will have good stabilizing effect specially in NWFP. It is curious how Pakistan Army ruler suddenly became darling of USA . (Zia was such lucky general, it appears this general is lucky). It is incidently true friends of Pakistan are Allah, Arabs and America.

We have no choice, angree USA can choke us financially. So better take advantage of situation as much as possible. Make the hay till sun shines.

But inside we all Pakistanis burn. It feels like we are forced to act against Muslim Brother country due to usa. I think if elections are taken over this matter most will like to be neutral. We do not want to enjoy the fruits of American actions . Its like getting raped and victim asked to enjoy it as there is no recourse

Pakistani Joke of the year - Islam doesn`t permit to declare jihad in their private capacities.

If it doesnt, then these jihadi terrorists are not muslims. Why sing and dance happily with them?

Pakistani is anti Islam.

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/sep2001-daily/16-09-2001/main/main12.htm

A fateful and necessary retreat

Analysis

By Imtiaz Alam

LAHORE: The choice was too difficult to make, yet it has been painfully and reluctantly made in the supreme interest of national survival by the guardians of our frontiers. The terrorists and their Taliban-backers, who had in fact wanted Pakistan to share their self-suicidal mission, had left no option for Pakistan except to join the ever-largest world coalition of mightiest forces against terrorism. Where do the people of Pakistan stand: with the Taliban/Osama, who have finally vowed to go on war against us and brought us close to the fate of Iraq? Or with Pakistan that has averted a stark possibility of being wiped out by the biggest bully, the US, this time for a good cause against the crimes against humanity that it has been frequently committing?

The corps commanders, the National Security Council and the cabinet have decided with consensus to fully support the international community in its fight against terrorism that Islam doesn`t permit and was wrongly accused of by the racist-bashers of the Muslims. Realizing the gravest threat to Pakistan`s security, President General Musharraf, an unquestionable fighting patriot that he is, took the timely decision to avert an irreparable catastrophe and outflanked foxy Indian leadership that have shown the readiness to provide Americans all military facilities to grind its own axe against Pakistan and the hapless Kashmiris. A two-front situation has been averted and this is what sensible Pakistani must understand, despite their understandable indignation against the injustices being done by the mightiest against the Muslims from Palestine to Chechnya and Kashmir.

In a reversal of a very flawed pro-Taliban policy, Pakistan has fatefully retreated from falling into the ditch with an untrustworthy and foolish ally, who was in fact trying to, and will try, to destabilize and Talibanize a moderate Muslim nation. Had the decision not been taken to go along with the international community- from the US to Europe, Russia to Central Asia and China to the Arab League, including OIC- ,Pakistan would not have been left with time to repent, when even nuclear options were also being considered in the US. On balance, it is a most sensible decision not to take the wrath of international community over facing a thoughtless domestic backlash of an extremist clergy, that doesn`t believe in our nation-hood but a demagogic pan-Islamist solidarity counterpoised to the umma represented by the OIC, however week it may be.

By continuously refusing to listen to the good advice of their benefactor, Pakistan, the Taliban turned out to be a very amateurish bunch of arrogant adventurists who have been left alone to the mercy of their own madness. Why should have Pakistan fatally suffered, and also lost its nuclear deterrence, for the follies of Osama-bin-Laden, a former CIA contact and accused by Colonel Gaddafi as an ``American agent``, and other adventurists and their defenders, Taliban? Taliban never listened to us: did not let gas/oil pipelines plans go off the board; not restrained from destroying Bamyan Budhas and address some of the genuine international concerns, such as on Osama; they did not even respect or recognize the Durand Line and hand over the terrorists wanted by us.

They tried their best to blackmail us through their militant outfits here and used the senior Deobandi clerics, who for their political expediency chose expansion of their constituency over giving scholarly advice to their pupils not to defame Islam. The kind of barbaric Islam they were enforcing in fact provided an opportunity to the Zionists and anti-Muslim racists in the name of ``clash of civilizations`` to accuse the faith of ``Rab-ul-alameen`` and ``Rehmat-ulil-alameen``. Not only that international community got closer to the Indian view on ``terrorism`` and Kashmir, due to Taliban/Osama and their associates in Pakistan, but also the Muslim countries, Central Asians, Iranians and others.

Now, after the US has fixed the responsibility on alleged perpetrator Osama and his harbors, Taliban, for the black Tuesday`s mayhem, its a matter of few days, if not hours, that the war on the perpetrators of terrorism and their harbors will be declared, not only by the US, but also by the whole international community. Pakistan had to follow the binding resolutions of UN Security Council resolutions. Or should Pakistan have defied? Only bad-wishers, short-sighted adventurers and enemies of Pakistan would have liked to.

What seems to be quite obvious now is that the Taliban, after having been left in the cold, will be routed and all sanctuaries of terrorists will be smashed. Kabul and Kandhar may even fall under the psychological pressure, if not by the carpet bombing, and the Northern Alliance will be let walk into the capital to in fact facilitate the return of King Zahir Shah to implement the UN plan for a broad coalition-government through the Loye Jirga or grand assembly. Unfortunately, it will be yet another nightmarish period for the poor Afghans who deserve to be treated with respect and salvaged from death and hunger.

This is not for the first time that Pakistan has got engaged in the Afghan imbroglio. It did get involved with the America`s Afghan War against the Soviets and their puppets. All these Mujahideen leaders and clerics, who have now turned their guns against America, were on its pay-role, whereas Pakistan got nothing but religious extremism, sectarianism, terrorism, klashnikov culture, heroin addiction and a bad guy image in return from the US`s ``attack and run`` policy. This time also the US, despite substituting Soviets, may go back to its safe havens after completing its revengeful mission and leave us alone to face the dangerous debris of extremism and yet another wave of Afghan refugees, this time including Taliban who will find many a sanctuaries among their school-mates to further destabilize Pakistan from within.

Indeed we were left with no option but to cooperate with the US. But, have we negotiated with the US a reasonable quid pro quo for our support and all necessary means and support to meet the coming fallout? Have we asked for the full compensation of costs that we would be forced to pay for such an exercise that can threaten both economy and society? Similarly, how will the US and its western allies treat us vis-a-vis India? Will we be secured on our eastern front and will the Kashmiris right to self-determination be respected, in exchange for sacrificing the security of our western front? Will the sanctions be lifted and we will be provided with crucial fiscal space to overcome our economic vulnerability? And, lastly, will our limited nuclear deterrence be treated at par with India?

If we have got the affirmative answer from the US, even on some of the major issues if not all, then it can be accepted as a best deal out of a worse situation when we were being asked on what side of the divide we were. A sudden reversal of our misguided Afghan policy will certainly cause resentment among the broadest sections of our people since they see US as the enemy of the Muslims, and not for all wrong reasons. If our clergy has any love for Pakistan, it should take it as ``Sulah-i-Hodaibya``. Had we been equal to the US or its allies, matter would have been different and we would not have allowed the Taliban to go berserk in the first place. Similarly, our mainstream democratic opposition must rally behind the regime in this crucial hour, and to thwart the designs of religious extremists. And General Musharraf should not be dithering in accommodating their genuine constitutional demands.

In providing our ``unstinting cooperation`` in the fight against terrorism, we must be very careful how far we will be going and what should we be getting and not losing in the end. General Musharraf has rightly decided not to go beyond Pakistan`s frontier in the crusade against terrorism. But he must secure his flanks, take the politicians into confidence while setting a right course for Pakistan, in line with the Quaid`s dream and away from the deviation of adventurists whom Islam doesn`t permit to declare jihad in their private capacities. The new course of a moderate Pakistan will require the support of the people who should not be misled by those who want to expand their narrow constituencies at the cost of Pakistan. God save Pakistan and bless the umma with necessary strength and wisdom to surmount its difficulties.

Some general comments on Pakistan being caught in between.

The Americans are understandably angry and justified in seeking retribution for this horrible attack. However I am skeptical as to how much solid ``proof`` there is in tying Osama Bin Laden to these hijackings. The US intelligence utterly failed to forsee this, yet within 6 hours of the attack, the media was announcing that they (the US intelligence) had strong evidence to connect this to Bin Laden?

With this ``evidence`` in hand, the Americans are demanding that the Afghanis extradite Osama Bin Laden. I read on BBC that a 72 hour deadline was given as of Wednesday, which would mean that this expires today on Saturday. Afterwhich all bets are off as to when the assumed invasion of Afganistan could take place.

Pakistan is unfortunatly getting caught in the middle, both geographically and being one of the three nations that does have diplomatic ties to the Taliban. It`s a no win situation for Pakistan:

1) if they don`t comply with the US demands of using their airspace then they are considered a country which harbours enemies of America and will be bombed.

2) If they do comply then this will result in the wrath of the Taliban plus the wrath of the numerous Taliban sympathizers within Pakistan. These people are not trivial in number. This has the potential to turn into a civil war.

The latest news is that Pakistan has agreed to allow the US to use their airspace

The consequences of this will play out in the upcoming days and weeks.

All one can do is hope and pray for the innocent civilians of every nation involved.

Regards,

Fozia

This may not be an very eloquent piece of work, but at least it is honest. For years Pakistanis have had to pay for our government`s interference in Afghanistan. Neither our economy nor our society has escaped unscathed. And after all our support, the Afghan government is threatening us with invasion if we co-operate with USA. My first reaction was..How dare they!! But then I realized that we the people of Pakistan, with our prejudices and hatred, our greed and selfishness , have made it so easy for every Tom, dick and Harry to threaten us. Our own weaknesses and flaws are being used as a weapon against us. This is not the first time Afghan regime has threatened us. I remember that in early 90’s we were going to close down our borders with Afghanistan because of the huge influx of refugees due to the civil war. I remember that the Afghan government has threatened us with terrorism then. (Please correct me if I am wrong).

What my point is, that it’s about time we Pakistanis get our act together. For once we need to forget who belongs to Jamat-e-Islami or to PPP or numerous other political and religious parties. For once just let us be Pakistanis. If Pakistan doesn’t exist then neither would our right to practice our individual religious or political ideologies.

I also wish that the Ambassador of Pakistan had spoken up in the past few days to answer to Americans’ misconception about us...

Religion`s misguided missiles

Promise a young man that death is not the end and he will willingly cause disaster

Richard Dawkins

A guided missile corrects its trajectory as it flies, homing in, say, on the heat of a jet plane`s exhaust. A great improvement on a simple ballistic shell, it still cannot discriminate particular targets. It could not zero in on a designated New York skyscraper if launched from as far away as Boston.

That is precisely what a modern ``smart missile`` can do. Computer miniaturisation has advanced to the point where one of today`s smart missiles could be programmed with an image of the Manhattan skyline together with instructions to home in on the north tower of the World Trade Centre. Smart missiles of this sophistication are possessed by the United States, as we learned in the Gulf war, but they are economically beyond ordinary terrorists and scientifically beyond theocratic governments. Might there be a cheaper and easier alternative?

In the second world war, before electronics became cheap and miniature, the psychologist BF Skinner did some research on pigeon-guided missiles. The pigeon was to sit in a tiny cockpit, having previously been trained to peck keys in such a way as to keep a designated target in the centre of a screen. In the missile, the target would be for real.

The principle worked, although it was never put into practice by the US authorities. Even factoring in the costs of training them, pigeons are cheaper and lighter than computers of comparable effectiveness. Their feats in Skinner`s boxes suggest that a pigeon, after a regimen of training with colour slides, really could guide a missile to a distinctive landmark at the southern end of Manhattan island. The pigeon has no idea that it is guiding a missile. It just keeps on pecking at those two tall rectangles on the screen, from time to time a food reward drops out of the dispenser, and this goes on until... oblivion.

Pigeons may be cheap and disposable as on-board guidance systems, but there`s no escaping the cost of the missile itself. And no such missile large enough to do much damage could penetrate US air space without being intercepted. What is needed is a missile that is not recognised for what it is until too late. Something like a large civilian airliner, carrying the innocuous markings of a well-known carrier and a great deal of fuel. That`s the easy part. But how do you smuggle on board the necessary guidance system? You can hardly expect the pilots to surrender the left-hand seat to a pigeon or a computer.

How about using humans as on-board guidance systems, instead of pigeons? Humans are at least as numerous as pigeons, their brains are not significantly costlier than pigeon brains, and for many tasks they are actually superior. Humans have a proven track record in taking over planes by the use of threats, which work because the legitimate pilots value their own lives and those of their passengers.

The natural assumption that the hijacker ultimately values his own life too, and will act rationally to preserve it, leads air crews and ground staff to make calculated decisions that would not work with guidance modules lacking a sense of self-preservation. If your plane is being hijacked by an armed man who, though prepared to take risks, presumably wants to go on living, there is room for bargaining. A rational pilot complies with the hijacker`s wishes, gets the plane down on the ground, has hot food sent in for the passengers and leaves the negotiations to people trained to negotiate.

The problem with the human guidance system is precisely this. Unlike the pigeon version, it knows that a successful mission culminates in its own destruction. Could we develop a biological guidance system with the compliance and dispensability of a pigeon but with a man`s resourcefulness and ability to infiltrate plausibly? What we need, in a nutshell, is a human who doesn`t mind being blown up. He`d make the perfect on-board guidance system. But suicide enthusiasts are hard to find. Even terminal cancer patients might lose their nerve when the crash was actually looming.

Could we get some otherwise normal humans and somehow persuade them that they are not going to die as a consequence of flying a plane smack into a skyscraper? If only! Nobody is that stupid, but how about this - it`s a long shot, but it just might work. Given that they are certainly going to die, couldn`t we sucker them into believing that they are going to come to life again afterwards? Don`t be daft! No, listen, it might work. Offer them a fast track to a Great Oasis in the Sky, cooled by everlasting fountains. Harps and wings wouldn`t appeal to the sort of young men we need, so tell them there`s a special martyr`s reward of 72 virgin brides, guaranteed eager and exclusive.

Would they fall for it? Yes, testosterone-sodden young men too unattractive to get a woman in this world might be desperate enough to go for 72 private virgins in the next.

It`s a tall story, but worth a try. You`d have to get them young, though. Feed them a complete and self-consistent background mythology to make the big lie sound plausible when it comes. Give them a holy book and make them learn it by heart. Do you know, I really think it might work. As luck would have it, we have just the thing to hand: a ready-made system of mind-control which has been honed over centuries, handed down through generations. Millions of people have been brought up in it. It is called religion and, for reasons which one day we may understand, most people fall for it (nowhere more so than America itself, though the irony passes unnoticed). Now all we need is to round up a few of these faith-heads and give them flying lessons.

Facetious? Trivialising an unspeakable evil? That is the exact opposite of my intention, which is deadly serious and prompted by deep grief and fierce anger. I am trying to call attention to the elephant in the room that everybody is too polite - or too devout - to notice: religion, and specifically the devaluing effect that religion has on human life. I don`t mean devaluing the life of others (though it can do that too), but devaluing one`s own life. Religion teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end.

If death is final, a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to risk it. This makes the world a safer place, just as a plane is safer if its hijacker wants to survive. At the other extreme, if a significant number of people convince themselves, or are convinced by their priests, that a martyr`s death is equivalent to pressing the hyperspace button and zooming through a wormhole to another universe, it can make the world a very dangerous place. Especially if they also believe that that other universe is a paradisical escape from the tribulations of the real world. Top it off with sincerely believed, if ludicrous and degrading to women, sexual promises, and is it any wonder that naive and frustrated young men are clamouring to be selected for suicide missions?

There is no doubt that the afterlife-obsessed suicidal brain really is a weapon of immense power and danger. It is comparable to a smart missile, and its guidance system is in many respects superior to the most sophisticated electronic brain that money can buy. Yet to a cynical government, organisation, or priesthood, it is very very cheap.

Our leaders have described the recent atrocity with the customary cliche: mindless cowardice. ``Mindless`` may be a suitable word for the vandalising of a telephone box. It is not helpful for understanding what hit New York on September 11. Those people were not mindless and they were certainly not cowards. On the contrary, they had sufficiently effective minds braced with an insane courage, and it would pay us mightily to understand where that courage came from.

It came from religion. Religion is also, of course, the underlying source of the divisiveness in the Middle East which motivated the use of this deadly weapon in the first place. But that is another story and not my concern here. My concern here is with the weapon itself. To fill a world with religion, or religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used.

In Cases of Terrorism Mere Technicalities Must Not be Allowed to Hinder The Process of Justice

http://www.dawn.com/2001/09/15/top11.htm

MQM activist`s plea dismissed: KESC chief`s murder case

By Our Staff Reporter

[The AG requested the court not to show any leniency to the appellant who was involved in an act of terrorism. In cases of terrorism, mere technicalities must not be allowed to hinder the process of justice, he stated. ]

good insight, i thought this might be appropriate

:

AS I write this letter, the US is preparing itself for an all-out attack on

Afghanistan. Watching the scenes a few miles away from the Pentagon, and witnessing the jingoism that has sadly polluted the minds of Americans has not been a welcoming experience.

For millions of people like me, who have come to the USA for work, or only to complete their education, we always bear the brunt of being caught in the middle of nowhere. It has never been so painful and difficult as it is now. My

heart goes out to the victims of this tragedy, to the innocent ones whose lives were lost through the frenzied ideology of someone who just killed

humanity. I am all for donating blood, food, and everything to the victims of this holocaust. But then, when my mosque is vandalized with messages like ``you pigs`` , `` Muslims will burn`` ; when a local radio station claims `` Allah is evil ``, I dont quite know what to say and how to react. Honestly speaking, the calls for wearing an American badge, displaying the US flag are looked

askance. I dont feel American, I am human, and I am saddenned by the senseless killing,

but somehow the Americanization of this conflict does not amuse me. The impression that you are American first and then something else, makes the

millions here queasy.

I dont condone terrorism. My country ( Pakistan ) has been more of its resigned victim than

the US has ever been. Amidst this chaos, I cant forget Muhammed Al Durrah, the 12 year old, who was killed by an Isreali bullet in front of his father. I cant gather enough strength to condone ( and differentiate ) that brand of terrorism from this. The innocent victims of America`s wrath in Iraq are no less victims of `` despicable crimes `` than are the victims of Tuesday`s

holocaust. America must realize that a child killed in Iraq is as beautiful and loveable than an American Child killed on its own soil.

Amidst these chaotic thoughts, among the rubble of dilemma that lies in the mind of a million Muslims, I feel uneasy knowing that my country has agreed to American demands of attacking an already battered people. I am a Muslim first,

and someone else next.

America is letting me be a human being , but at this time, I am finding it hard to be a Muslim.

May Allah help us all. We need your prayers, all of us.

New York Buildings Were ``Twin Brothers of Oppression``

- Pakistani Newsletter Writer

http://www.dawn.com/2001/09/16/letted.htm

How Pakistanis are Brainwashed

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/books/books2.htm

Re: fundamentalism and islam

I read your article and believe me, i do not know what, as the Americans are fond of saying ``the bottom line`` was. You talk of a lot of things. You blame clergy which was at one time sympathetic to Gandhi (sic) to be responsible for problems in your country. So, now Jinnah is conveniently forgotten. The man who was so much secular founded an islamic country. Gandhi for you is a convenient scapegoat. You forget that the secular India that he founded is still secular. Only the other day Supreme Court of India defended Sonia Gandhi`s right to being citizen of India and hold high office. Sangh Parivar may not like this but they too respect the court ruling.

How true it is to say clergy is responsible for Pakistan`s ills? Many in the chowk never tire of saying these fundamentalists are a minority and never win any significant number of votes as and when elections are held in Pak. How can these people then change the society to such an extent that Pak today is becoming a radical society, with Shias and Sunnis killing each other in the killing fields of Karachi. You talk about Kashmir and Babri Masjid. While Kashmir has already been debated at length ad nauseum and i would not get into it now, destruction of Babri Masjid in India was an aberration. It certainly does not compare to the terrorist attack in New York. Babri issue is being debated in India and the matter is in court.

The reason why Pak is increasingly becoming a radical society is the amount of hatred it has invested against India as a state policy. It has cultivated Taliban to nurture this hatred and to unleash jehad in Kashmir through the Taliban fighters. This policy is boomeranging now. The world has no patience with a failing or failed state that Pak is. To make matters worse, it is also nuclear. USA will force Pak to dismantle all the apparatus of support to Taliban. This is a difficult task for Pak rulers. They are between rock and the hard place. Their best bet is to treat this as an opportunity and take USA`s help in rooting out this evil from the Pak society.

I, however, agree with the sentiment when you say

``faith didn’t belong to a certain religion but lies in some core inside of us`` and that America has shown tremendous amount of faith during this tragedy and that whoever committed this crime will not prevail in the end.

Sridhar

While talking about being caught in bewtween, Ladies and Gentlement I inform you tonight with my heart filled with sorrow, confusion and deep grief that the first casuality of the hate crimes after the NY incident has been not a Muslim, not an Arab nor an Afghan but a Sikh, from Inda; Balbir Singh Sodhi of Mesa(Phoenix, Arizona). He was wokring at his Chevron gas station while some people came and gunned him down Saturday evening.

I was bewlidered,sad, moved and full of anguish since the moment I woke up on Tuesday morning and watching the coverage of attacks. Like many of you for the first time I felt that this was my country and the people who died in NY are my people. For the first time I realized that how deeply I love this country, the freedom, the liberty and justice it has provided to me as a resident and as a citizen. Although I still feel the same way about USA my trust in the mainstream media and abilities of the Govt of USA to analyze and make right decisions in the wake of this tragedy is disappearing fast.

I hope and pray that this country remains the one I fell in love with since I landed and does not behave like my country of birth. Most of my turbaned friends and relatives have not ventured out of their homes for 4 days and the ones who did are very concerned about their safety. One of my friends remarked that it is the first time he realized how the Sikhs in New Delhi might have felt during the fateful first week of Nov 84.

http://65.42.195.102/sikhs/

i think it is stupid to say that it was indiscriminate killing. It was not. People, duly protected by American govt, were killed. It is the samething why UK jumped to protect Salman Rushdie, when Khomeni asked ppl to kiil him. It was more a crime against USA then humanity. And the ppl killed were collateral damage.

I am atheist, have no sympathy for any religious cause, including Islamic. But I can see y these hijackers were so dead agaiant American govt. These ppl were not religious at all. Some of these hijackers were found drinking and in nude clubs. A hijacker from Lebabnon, had a steady girl friend living like a wife with her (according to his relatives). Their cause was more nationalistic than religious one. Martyrdom might have been a motive here accoding to their believs, but lets not fool oursleves. The resentment against the treatment meted out to Arabs in middle east is more than enough to motivate ppl to do such fatal acts. Muslim`s holy land is occupied by Americans. Not a day goes by when Palestinians r not killed. Dictatorial regimes r supported in middle east, while china is given lectures on democracy and human rights.

Human suffering as `collateral damage` and in a big picture/scheme of things, is not that unnatural or even irreligious. Even the diseases created by `God` to punish some sinful ppl, caught everyone in that nation. AIDS is also kiiling children.

I can only hope that Laden and his companions do not give up as Saddam did. I like to see courageous ppl rising from the countries such as Pakistan.

Lets pay homage to those 19 hijackers killed on Sep 11. Lets pay himage to their bravery, guts, and reolution.

Please keep quiete for 1 minute.....

some observations

a)Without China there is no Pakistan, without Pakistan there is no Taliban, and without the Taliban there is no OBL. Did you read the news about Gen Mushy running to China ?? Even during Kargil he was in China and we all heard his `truthful` phone conversation!!!

b) The arab view about the Isreali - Palestine problem is the gospel truth. And the gospel truth is that Isrealis/Yankees are harassing the peace loving Palestine who have every right to bring down WTC as an act of revenge.

`` You know we are sorry about the WTC but you see it is because we are so peace loving and the dirty Jews/Americans deserve it``

c) Gen Mushy and illustrious corps commanders had severly castigated Nawaz Sharif for prostrating before the Yankees. Now what is he doing?? of course when Pak Army prostrates it is in `supreme national interest`` like the way they prostrated in 1971 which incidenatally was in `Supreme national interest``??

d) If Pakistan as a nation is so whole heartedly affected by the WTC bombing and condems it ( devil quopting the scriptures!!) why is it having so much difficulty helping USA? Why are there marathon meeting with religious leaders ( I hope LET, HM, Jaish are all invited), editors, etc etc.

e) i would like to know if the American effort with Paki help is Jehad or not??

so the anti-heeng smeliing denizen of soho, ex-hira-mandi has spoken. But like all else she needs to buy some brains. I wonder if she can be given one.

Sawari, you need to understand what has happenned recently. There has been a very big paradigm shift in the policy of the pakistan. It cannot afford to have a religious tilt in its foreign policies. There has to be pragmatism in there.

Also realise that the current troubles of pakistan are not the making of a gigantic conspiracy theory as you suggest, but of pakistan own making, choices pakistan made. India has nothing to do with the choices pakistan made. Pakistan and pakistanis have free will.

I guess you will get interacts along these lines from the more enlightened pakistanis.

re the author`s

`My country was made from the grounds of dissatisfaction, boiling over after the introduction of religion into politics by Mahatma Gandhi. `

Funny you mention that. Gandhi`s `religious` India is a secular democracy while Pakistan, the one that his `introduction of religion` created, is a theocratic military-feudal principality.

continued..

`These fundamentalists of Gandhi’s genre who thought religion as an inseparable part of politics became the religious leaders of Pakistan. `

Madam, with all due respect, `these fundamentalists` were not exactly unwelcomed in Pakistan. None other than the Quaid-e-Millat Nawabzada Liaqat Ali Khan, Prime Minister of Pakistan, succumbed to these elements by introducing the infamous Objectives Resolution in the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. Please don`t tell me that `he had to`; with a crushing majority of the ruling Muslim League in the Assembly, he didn`t `have to` do anything. The day that this obnoxious legislation was introduced, a former member of the late Quaid-e-Azam`s cabinet (J N Mondol) rose up to say that this was the `beginning of the road to theocracy`. He was shouted down and hounded out as a `traitor`.

Pakistan has nobody to blame for its predicament but herself. Kashmir would have been a different story had Pakistan been a democracy. Well meaning Pakistanis never cease to question India`s `democracy`, as if to soothe their own shortcomings. India is not a prefect democracy, far from it; but she IS a democracy and the world recognizes it as such. And in the civilized world of today even an imperfect democracy has more weight than a perfect military regime. I am on record supporting the right of Kashmiris to self-determination(which makes me the butt of Rsaxenas anger often); but Pakistan is on tricky ground saying that. When was the last time there was a `plebiscite` in `Azad` KAshmir? And by the way on what authority did Pakistan cede ancient Kashmiri lands in Baltistan to China?

Pakistan`s cries of neglect and unfairness will continue to ring a hollow bell in the court of world opinion until she reforms certain fundamental things about her. Never mind social customs, any polity which legally makes a distiction between its citizens on the basis of religion and gender is at a definite public relations disadvantage in the West. And it should be.

With the greatest of respect for the Quaid-e-Azam, I must submit that his Pakistan went into abeyance with his death. If you and Yasser can resuscicate it, all the power and blessings to you.

The anti-heeng-smelling denizen of soho, ex-hira-mandi, the puss oozing sawari . Okay that was personal. No Apologies to her. But to the readers of this site.

Should read Janes article. it is interesting. Surely Pakistan went into this with its eyes open. I wonder when people like sawari will wake and realise that they have to own up to theiractions and take responsibility for it. Findinf excuses and trying to hang your coat on someelse doesnot work. Donot tell me that pakistan got involved in afghanistan beacause of the firty devious double dealing drug infused lalas, aka hindoos.

personal(again what else can be expected from the denizen how scavanged the bowels of hira-mandi for prey).

from the article:

http://www.janes.com/regional_news/americas/news/jdw/jdw010914_1_n.shtml

(

The trainers were mainly from Pakistan`s Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) agency, who learnt their craft from American Green Beret commandos and Navy SEALS in various US training establishments. Mass training of Afghan mujahideen was subsequently conducted by the Pakistan Army under the supervision of the elite Special Services Group (SSG), specialists in covert action behind enemy lines and the ISI.

Pakistan’s current military ruler, General Pervez Musharraf, spent seven years with the SSG and was also involved in training Afghan mujahideen. Provided he co-operates, he will prove a useful guide to the US in hunting down terrorists inside Afghanistan.)

Zahra

The clergy mind is not interested in material world, the world we normal human being live n breath in, but the day after. When the eye is on that eternal prize then ignorance become bliss, its that simple.

Aiesha, BTW what Gandhi has to do with our foriegn policy today why u brought this up. Its only make u more indian hater nothing better than those on the wrong side of the border...then u come back n complain abt Indian writting badly abt the land of the pure!!

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari,

``Pakistan is next to a so-called democratic nation that stood by in silence as Hindu fanatics demolished the Babri Mosque.``

You mean ``so-called ``secular...``, I think.

Intense hatred is known to produce these slips. I`ve made a few myself.

Thanks Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari.

WIN EVERY WHICH WAY

Sarwari,

At last the great geographic juxtaposition of pakistan is coming to the rescue of the of the children of TNT. During the russian occupation, pakistanis benefitted greatly by creating the jihadists to attack the russians, americans funded it and the pak `economy` boomed, every one got their own Ak 47s. This time the pakistanis are winning again, fighting the monster they created.

It could be back to the good old days, for providing a base for U2 flights over russia, a generation of pakistanis lived a life of no-work, alegacy that prevented the creation of any institutional infrastructure to support the country. Only the military survived. Once again it is the military that is coming to the economic reascue of pakistan, again by provoding supprot for the americans. A parasite thriving in the missery of others, supporting either parties in turn, to eke out a living.

It is not hard to understand why it is so, a nation with out a history, a nation with out identity...still i can hear the shouts from most of pakistanis...laillaha illalla..pakistan ka matlab kya...The educated have wasted their time in futile fights with the indians, the sarwaris, the YLH and the bina shas writing about sher sha suri and a girl married to the dog instead of answering the question... pakistan ka matlab kya...

Pathetic, education even of the baba blacksheep variety cannot overcome the institutional hatred of pakistan.. the TNT.

Nice job of refutation, Sigalph. Much as I can`t stand Jay, the truth is the truth and he is correct about, ``Pakistan ka mutlab kya? La illaha illallah!`` has been our national slogan for a very long time now. Liaqat Ali Khan, the muhajir`s Qaid-e-Millat, is the one who started this whole dirty mess BUT, it was inevitable. We can blame him but any politician would have done the same and Pakistan`s road to theocracy was preordained from the start. You cannot create a nation on the basis of ``Muslims are inherently different from Hindus and we cannot live together in the same country`` and not get the Sharia as the law of the land.

But how did Israel manage it? Because the first generation of Israelis were all secularized and fairly well-educated Ashkenazi Jews from Europe, most of whom did not really think of themselves as Jews as such (versus thinking of themselves as Germans, or French or Lithuanians) until the Holocaust. If you look at Israel now, you`ll see that the increasing theocratization (for want of a better word) of Israel is due to the increasing power of more observant Sephardic (Middle Eastern) Jews.

The first generation leaders from the Army--Gen. Azam Khan and FM Ayub Khan--fought a losing battle against the mullahs but they too were forced to adopt at least the outwards symbols of Islam. This just further legitimized the mullahs.

Anyway, I`ve expressed my opinion of Ms. Sarwari`s articles before: waste of bandwith. Why does Chowk seem to like her so much? God knows its not because of her writing skills.

Regards.

A good one again Ms. sarwari

I wonder how such utter rot gets published on Chowk.

So Gandhi is to be `blamed` for the creation of Pakistan (I think the RSS types will agree with the author). If so, once Pakistan was formed and Gandhi dead a few months later, Gandhi was no longer around to mix religion with politics. What prevented PAkistan from adopting a secular path? What made it declare itself an Islamic Republic? Is that Gandhi`s fault too? Isn`t it an irony that Gandhi`s India grew to be secular (though not without blemish), while Jinnah`s Pakistan fundamentalist? Don`t you find it strange that Gandhi was himself assassinated by a Hindu fundamentalist, the ultimate certificate of his secularism, if ever he needed one?

``Perhaps this may not have been so difficult a task for Pakistan if it hadn’t got the Kashmir issue to devote itself to. Being friendly with India was a reinforcement of our reason to be. But we could not play friendly with a nation in which the constitution states Kashmir is part of their territory, when the people don’t want to belong to India. The fact that a plebiscite didn’t occur was tragic to the tale but over 600,000 Indian forces in Kashmir today is tyranny of the majority over a civilian minority. This is the tyranny Pakistan escaped form and this is what grips it today.``

This is a laugh. If Pakistan escaped from `Indian` tyranny in 1947, why should it be `gripped` by it today? As Sadna pointed out, why blame the Indian army for your ills, while it is your own army you should be watching out for!

``Pakistan is next to a so-called democratic nation that stood by in silence as Hindu fanatics demolished the Babri Mosque.``

The demolition of the Babri mosque was a despicable act. But it occurred in India, and it is for India to resolve or suffer its consequences. How the heck does it impact Pakistan? How the heck can you blame what is happening in Pakistan to the Babri demolition?

``Victims of Afghanistan’s post war problems come to seek shelter with Pakistan. Armed only with the belief that like India they hold a gift of being the world greatest something. Instead of the world’s largest democracy, they claim to be the world’s truest and purest territory: The most holy place for Islam.``

Is that a claim from the refugees or is that a claim by Pak supported Taliban from whom the refugees flee?

When will you realise that the Pakistani establishment has cynically manipulated Islam for its own ends. That it alone is to be blamed for the mess in Pakistan. That so long as it justifies its actions under the garb of Islam, it is the major enemy of Islam.

Pakistan`s demand for US intervention in Kashmir in return for cooperation is laughable. Remember Clinton`s promise to NS: `I`ll play a personal role in Kashmir if you pull out of Kargil` Well what happened after that? NOTHING.

Pakistanis seems to mistake India to be like themselves, with little control of sovereign decisions and ready to bend over at the sight of a $1 bill. For 30 years, despite poor relations with the US, India didn`t succumb to Pakistani terrorism in Kashmir. Paki mullahs are deluding themselves yet again into thinking that this time will be different. Ain`t gonna happen.

Oh and let`s not forget, Russia still has a veto vote in the UN Security Council (doubt it will get to that). If Pakistani diplomats were educated somewhere other than the local madrassah, they`d be a match for sneaky, shrewd Indian diplomats who hedge their bets and spread the risk. US-India relationship has grown, but not at the expense of our relationship with Russia.

Finally, the Indo-Israeli lobby in the US out-spends all other foreign lobbies. And they have strategically joined their efforts. Money does talk when it`s time for re-election. Money from American Indians (I`ve given my share to the right places), money invested in India by US companies, money to be made in Indian markets.

test

I have a good mind to mass mail this site to as many americans as possible so that the americans know how some of the perverted pakis who are their friends and colleagues at work think inwardly about this disastor and the sufferings of their fellow americans.....

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: sigalph

Well-said (except the part about Kashmir, but we`ve agreed to disagree amicably on that one).

Re: Fuzair

``Anyway, I`ve expressed my opinion of Ms. Sarwari`s articles before: waste of bandwith. Why does Chowk seem to like her so much? God knows its not because of her writing skills.``

What do you mean? Ylh says she is an emerging writer, thinker, and political analyst. Pakistan`s very own George Stephanapolous.

jazba66 #16 ``America is letting me be a human being , but at this time, I am finding it hard to be a Muslim. ``

No human being can be the type of muslim you seem to be thinking of - the ones who wear Islam on their sleeves and not in their hearts. These are people with outward show of beards and burqas and with ``religious`` political parties and with imposition of their voices on the neighborhood with loudspeaders and with repeated haj trips (in jet-comfort, government paid if possible). Try being the muslim that God meant us all to be: with malice towards none, kindness towards all, respect for God`s creation and all people, and love for learning. Then you will not only become a good muslim, but also a good human being.

As for the fears of assaults in the US: The only ones who fear assaults are the ones who wore Islam on their sleeves and are wrapped up in themselves and their brand of Islam - the true muslims grieve with the rest of America at these nightmarish attacks. The US government and people have demonstrated admirable concern for the safety of muslims in the US (with repeated calls for this by public figures from the President down to Senators, from school teachers, in newspapers, on TV; a muslim mullah led part of the time at prayers held in the Washington Cathedral where President Bush as well as previous US presidents were present; an 800 number has been set up specifically for any muslim to call if harassed or otherwise concerned; and so forth). Pakistani women in shalwar kameez walk freely on the streets in the US the past few days. While there are always some nuts in any society, the care and concern for the well-being of the individual muslims in the US is what deserves recognition, not these self-centered fears of crank phone calls when there is a much bigger tragedy for all decent human beings to be concerned with.

(Incidentally, the Afghan ambassador to Pakistan in a press conference yesterday claimed 12 muslims killed in mosques in the US - and this from a man who represents a government that wears Islam on it`s sleeve and kills and intimidates ordinary people in the name of Islam. If the Afghan ambassador had the faintest inkling of Islam, he would have respected the call for honesty that is emphasized in the Quran.)

Gowardhan #18 ``How Pakistanis are Brainwashed``

You obviously dont have a brain, and so cannot be brainwashed.

freesoul #21 As an atheist, how come you think you have a soul? Just wondering.

We pakistanis (small `p` intended) must bow in shame. We have demanded forgiveness of our debt of $ 30 billion in return for helping USA. It`s a moral issue and money should not come into it.

It sounds like attempted blackmail to me. Pak govt decided to get whatever it can out of a human disaster.

Shame .. Shame ..

Jay # 28

Good to see you again my friend. This is the time of reckoning for Pakistan. The act must be condoned without reservation but the roots go deep. This is not an act of terrorism but an act of clash between civilisations. Where do we go from here ? Do we have a better understanding of people and faiths and right to survive and mutual understanding between cultures?

If we still do not, worse times are around the corner.

WHY THEY HATE US SO MUCH?

That is the question every sane mind in US is asking these days. One must keep in mind as well that the first impulsive reaction throughout the Third World in general and Middle East in particular, when this tragedy happened, was that of jubilation. People looked with awe the demise of the myth of invulnerability of United States. The myth is no more. The beast can be brought down to its knees. Soon the compassion for the innocent lives took over and grief sunk in. The US and Western media is desperately trying to tone down this initial impulsive reaction of the Third World. Because US government does not want to face the question “why they hate us so much?” at this time.

US media is also trying to tone down the hate crimes against the people of Middle East and South Asian origin. The wave of hate has spread across the continents; lives and properties of colored people are being destroyed; and their places of worship are being set on fire. The tragedy has unleashed the inherent racial hatred in these societies. US media has failed to bring these crimes in the light because the last thing that US government wants is people asking “why they hate us so much”

One may assume that this time it wont be easy for US government to dodge this question. But that is not true. The power of propaganda and media will again be used to exploit the situation. Lets admit it that FBI and CIA have utterly failed in preventing this tragedy to happen. But with in hours they were able to find their bogeyman. The main brunt of American indignation has already been directed towards Taliban and OBL. Warnings have been issued to the nations who ``support” the terrorists. “Pakistan will be given one opportunity to prove where it stands” are the words of GW Bush. The arrogance of this nation knows no bounds. Is this the protocol to address a sovereign nation who has already pledged its support?

Lets face it, the American leaders are no visionary. America desperately needs a war to prove its leadership to the world. It is abundantly clear that US will delay or prevent the handing over of Osama Bin Laden. It is clear that US will impose some impossible conditions on Taliban to do so.

A couple of months ago I was ridiculed at Chowk for hypothesizing a scenario where US will be threatening Pakistan with “our way or the highway”. The dreaded time has come rather quickly. US is parked in the Arabian sea right now, off the coast of Karachi, threatening the whole region, including Pakistan. So the hypothetical scenario based on the contention that US will excess anywhere whenever it will like, has come true. The arrogance of this nation is once again threatening the world peace.

Whether or not OBL did it; whether or not Taliban knew or not, US has no right to slaughter innocent Afghans to prove its leadership. The Afghans are as innocent as the people in the WTC were. We must speak up to prevent this circle of violence from revolving again. It is amoral. Period.

Pakistan and Taliban must understand that US will stop at nothing. They must forget about asking for the “credible evidence” crap, because there wont be any. No reasoning will work here because the main purpose of this aggression is not to prevent terrorism, its main purpose to make a statement that US is still the leader.

The best course of action for Pakistan and Taliban at this stage is to hand over OBL to a neutral European country (which is an oxymoron) as soon as possible-Pakistan must involve China and make full use of media to prevent US from creating hurdles in this hand over.

In the end I would request all to SPEAK UP against any aggression against people of Afghanistan. Because the next country facing the cruise missiles would be yours. It is time that Americans learn to live in this world with peace and resolve their issues peacefully.

SPEAK UP IF YOU BELIEVE IN “HUMANS FIRST”

a very obvious list of `demands` to make all the jihadis fall in line -

.keep india/israel out of it: illiterate jihadis, the madarsa educated, are happy

.write off $30b: educated jihadis, the bankers, engineers, businessmen, dedicated to fighting in kashmir (according to romair) are happy

.help us in kashmir: all jihadis are happy

urstruly

``The arrogance of this nation is once again threatening the world peace`` ........

....... so i assume that urstruly is not a part of this nation and as soon as DTW opens he will be taking the first flight back to kabul to defend his homeland against the infidel ....

...bon voyage and good riddance !

NEW YORK: Two Pakistanis were taken into custody by the FBI for being a material witness in the recent acts of terrorism that destroyed World Trade Center and Pentagon with thousands dead and wounded.

Muhammad Javed Azmat, 47, and Muhammad Ayub Ali Khan were reportedly taken into custody in Dallas, Texas and being brought to New York for further questioning as a material witness.

County jailers said federal agents told them that the two men were taken into custody after the box cutters were discovered.

Neither man had addresses or relatives listed on their jail records, but both told officials they were born in India.

THE BAST *RDS!

Yes Aisha Fayyazi,

You are really caught in between!! Caught in between your delusions.

I can say that even a ``jism-farosh`` will have more ethics than you. Thousands of people died and you are trying to put the blame on Gandhi!!

Of course, you will never know that Gandhi`s religious politics gave birth to a democracy.

You will also never recognize that Pakistan is an ``ISLAMIC REPUBLIC`` where by constition, only adherants of a specific relgion can control that nation.

``Pakistan has seen terrorism in Karachi. The bombs the arms and the heroin that was quite non-existent before Russia abandoned Afghanistan in its war-ravaged state, appeared. ``

Yes Aisha, they were non-existant when you were bombing baluchis out of existence and you were raping Bengalis to improve their genetic profile.

``So that is the story of my country. I am sure it wasn’t meant to be this way. Our founder Muhammed Ali Jinnah stood for all values that supported the protection of Pakistan against the fanaticism and fundamentalism. He spoke repeatedly of justice, fair play, of being free in the state of Pakistan, of every citizen being equal, of the importance of law and order, of being friendly with all its neighbors, of religious freedom, of a sovereign independent nation with democratic institutions and most importantly the address to the Constituent Assembly in 1947 where he speaks of separation of religion and state. ``

I must say that save shri Jinnah started the riots by his direct action call. Same Jinnah saheb started persecution of Bengalis when he declared anyone asking for Bengali as state language as traitor.

``Yesterday America was hijacked; the very same people held Pakistan’s foundations hostage 53 years ago. ``

Perhaps you wrote this truth only by fluke. You are hostages held by fundus for last 53 years. It is true that after such a long period, you have forgotten how it is like to act sane. Still, tt is never too late for you to come out of their cluthces.

Disgusted

Friend

PS: And no advice to Ras Siddiqui except that he is not fit even to be called a p-im-p.

What a piece of junk! Same old apologistic for religion garbage. When a religion provides a slippery path to gutter, sprinkled with mythology, it is no different than some insect eatin plants/ flowers provide slippery and juicy attraction to insect to fall into thier belly.

They may keep saying, ``Islam is a peaceful religion`` and back it up with few hadis and from Quran. They do not realize that OBL and Taliban can back up their views by ten fold hadis and holy book quotes. You just can not win against OBL and Taliban based on religion. The reason for average Muslim to be as good human being as any other is natural humanistic and rational behavior. The goodness of most people is natural human goodness and religion could not get credit for it whereas religion can be easily used for evil. Avantages nothing, disadvantages many!

Follow up to Sarwari`s article.

There are many injustices in the world. Many Pakistanis are starving today because Gandhi starved himself. Pakistanis were helpless in keeping these people who found common cause with Gandhi in starving.

If only the so called secular country had not brought down the Babri Masjid the Ahmeddiya mosques in Pakistan would have been safe.

Pakistan is walking the tight rope because Pakistan has to balance its ideals between the good of Pakistanis and the caste system in India.

A. Sarwari

This is a shallow and unfocused, disappointing article. If you must feel that you bear a measure of responsibility or that fundamentalists?, or persons of religious faith bear responsibility for this tragedy, you need to take a look at who carried out this attack and why.

``For Pakistan, reigion has become a curse``. This is a representation of a shallow understanding of the course and meaning of events and intellectual trends. Religion is indeed a curse for the simple minded and the emotionally unbalanced. I look to you for works of meaning and clarity.

I think the post by URSTRULY that he has pasted in 10 different boards is very good. He should print 200 copies, stand outside his local mosque, and give it out to American passserbys. Or better yet, he should go to New York, where every subway train is plastered with flyers of people presumed dead or missing, and give it out to them.

5 Pakistanis held in Macau

LISBON: Police in Macau on Sunday detained five Pakistanis on suspicion of links to the September 11 air assaults in the United States, Lusa news agency reported here.

The report quoted a spokesman for the Macau government as confirming the detention and nationalities of the five men, saying the operation had been mounted on a tipoff from abroad.

Police sources told Lusa that the arrests followed a request from the US consulate in Hong Kong, which had provided the identities of the five men.

http://www.timesofindia.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=1545975380

Friend,

The claim that Jinnah called for calcutta riots is even more stupid than your claim that the Non Governmental PIADS in Lahore is somehow a PAF organization. You seemed to have missed the debate

on Calcutta riots which we had for weeks in which we effectively showed that no author historian worth his salt has ever accused Jinnah of this. In any event I dont wish to start this stupid debate again because it is clear that facts dont support your stupid claim. As for Gandhi his responses would have been even more stupid ... he would say to the Americans `Get slaughtered man woman and child but dont retaliate.`

Great Job Aisha... You are going to get slammed for this but the fact is that you have done a great job at a time when Pakistan stands by Humanity with its heart and soul.

Long Live Humanity

God Bless America

Long Live Pakistan

Re: Gowardhan

``...my dream of a destroyed Pakistan becomes a reality soon...``

You are a fanatic -- nothing more, nothing less. I do not think that you will ever listen to reason -- unfortunate, but true. The only thing that may possibly deter you is the discovery that the ideas that you propagate will one day consume you, but that may take too long, and may happen too late.

DullaBhatti #20
Be safe and just FYI
http://www.ndtv.com/template/WTCCRASH.asp?id=7520&callid=0
Bush talks to Vajpayee over telephone
``..Vajpayee drew Bush`s attention to the attacks against Sikhs in the US in the wake of the terrorist strikes....``

I have hardly read any responses on any board and unfortunately I did read a few here. I am simply disgusted to read xyz`s remarks on the writer of this article.

Why would you need to stoop so damn low to personal insults just because someone expressed their understanding of certian events in history ? That shows insecurity and madness as well! That shows you are not willing to allow the other person to express her viewpoint, but you want to express your BS/Bakwas without any limits.
On one hand, there is so much chanting on free-speech and on the other hand hypocrisy is in full-swing.

Deplorable!


Ordinary:

I partially disagree with your stance. I will come back to my thought later.

Take Care.

I have hardly read any responses on any board and unfortunately I did read a few here. I am simply disgusted to read xyz`s remarks on the writer of this article.

Why would you need to stoop so damn low to personal insults just because someone expressed their understanding of certian events in history ? That shows insecurity and madness as well! That shows you are not willing to allow the other person to express her viewpoint, but you want to express your BS/Bakwas without any limits.
On one hand, there is so much chanting on free-speech and on the other hand hypocrisy is in full-swing.

Deplorable!


Ordinary:

I partially disagree with your stance. I will come back to my thought later.

Take Care.

I see that the Hindu Bigots and fanatics like Rsaxena and Gowardhan are excreting on this board too...

Two interactors have used words like `jism-farosh` and `ex-hira mandi` to describe the author. That is as low as someone can get. Shows the upbringing and background of these interactors rather than Aisha`s.

One more life sacrificed at the altar of misguided hatred -

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/gen.mesa.shooting/

This was the most humorous article I ever read. Is YLH, the narcissist, and Aisha Sarwari the same person. How can two people in the world hold so uniquely foolish opinions!

Who is responsible for this sorry state of Pakistan?

Gandhi

Why are Sunnis killing Shias and Waderas raping Sindhi women?

Because of Gandhi

Why have jihadi fundamentalists in control of Pakistan

Blame Gandhi

And finally, Why did jihadis blew up WTC?

Of Course to protest Gandhi`s introduction of ``religion`` in politics.

INFERENCE

Through this enlightened study,we the great YLH, and Ms Sarwari declare that Gandhi is infact responsible for all the mess in the world. Now that he is dead, USA should bomb Rajghat, where his samadhi is present, so that the poison of Gandhism, more dangerous than jihad ,is contained. The real threat to the world is not Islamic terrorism but Gandhism.



References

-Add any twenty random books

URstruly #44 How dare you and your kind demand ``evidence`` against Osama: For four years, ever since the bombing of the US embassies, the US has been begging the Taliban to hand over the man they suspect. Had they done so, Osama would have gone through the US justice system which, living in the US, you should know is open and thorough and rests on the basic principal that a man is innocent unless proven guilty. No one questioned this when previous terrorists were extradited and went through this same justice system. And yet the Taliban refused to do that. Today thousands of innocent lives have been lost because of this Taliban refusal. Even if they agree to hand him over to save their hides, the Pakistan government should still work with the US government to root out the evil that has descended in Afghanistan.

Try and get this through your head, although logic and reason is not something that seems important to you.

Gowardhan,

Listen to the words of your fellow Indian ... Finally you have been exposed as fanatical bigot:

Shammi says to Gowardhan:

`You are a fanatic -- nothing more, nothing less. I do not think that you will ever listen to reason -- unfortunate, but true. The only thing that may possibly deter you is the discovery that the ideas that you propagate will one day consume you, but that may take too long, and may happen too late.`

I just hope and pray there are more Indians like Shammi, stuka, Eklavya etc, because between you and Rsaxena India looks nothing better than a third rate fascist nazi state.

-YLH

Gowardhan,

Listen to the words of your fellow Indian ... Finally you have been exposed as fanatical bigot:

Shammi says to Gowardhan:

`You are a fanatic -- nothing more, nothing less. I do not think that you will ever listen to reason -- unfortunate, but true. The only thing that may possibly deter you is the discovery that the ideas that you propagate will one day consume you, but that may take too long, and may happen too late.`

I just hope and pray there are more Indians like Shammi, stuka, Eklavya etc, because between you and Rsaxena India looks nothing better than a third rate fascist nazi state.

-YLH

YLH

The Hindu fanatics may be excreting on the Chowk board. The Muslim fundamentalists are threatening your nation`s way of life. At least now, realize where the real danger is from.

Did you guys ever think you`d end up going to war with the Afghans? Well, well, see what has come to pass...

Akash,

Try reading `Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi` spanning over 30 volumes. You will see how true Aisha`s assertions are.

Sigalph,

Those who have said stuff like that are shameless buggers... maybe because `nameless` people are also very shameless..... since they are often born out of wedlock.

-YLH

Maybe the real `Jism faroshes` and the real nameless children of `Hira Mandi` will not be intellectually honest enough to answer the following questions:

Those who have questioned the relevance and logic of Aisha`s Historical assertions please answer the following questions:

1) Did Mahatma Gandhi or didnt he support the Khilafat Movement which was a religious Movement for the preservation of an age old institution which was a curse for Muslims itself?

2) Did the Deobandis by consensus not support the Congress Party and opposed the creation of Pakistan? If not then what was the role of Jamiat e Ulema Hind, Majlis e Ahrar, Khudai Khidmatgars, and the Jamaat e Islami?

3) Wasnt Pakistan Movement spearheaded by Ex-Congressites and Modernists usually known as supporters of Hindu Muslim Unity? If thats not true, what were the back grounds of Jinnah, Chundrigar, Khaliquzzamman, Dr Barkat Ali, Liaqat, etc?

4) Some of you have sought to bring up the direct action day? Kindly explain to me why violence broke out in a Hindu Majority city while the rest of the country particularly Muslim Majority areas were peaceful and had simple disobedience?

5) If Jinnah`s call for Direct Action Day supposedly caused the massacres and he is responsible, then the violence that was caused by the non cooperation movement.. like Chaura Chauri,

Moplah Uprising, Killing and kidnapping of the British, acts of terrorism etc falls in the lap of Mahatma Gandhi... as do the exploits of the Quit India Movement?

Sadna:

You say,`` btw, I asked a simple question some boards ago and didnot get an answer: The manly Jinnah and his heroic Muslim League created a new nation which the fundamentalist Deobandis and the fundamentalist Gandhi opposed. If that was the case, what was the post-Independence(1947-2001) record of the Muslim League in Pakistan wrt religion, legislation related to religion and its record of upholding secularism in Pakistan? ``

If those fanatics would have stayed in India the larger Hindu fanatic fish would have swallowed them whole. Those later grew to become the Chachas of Pakistan. Rafiq Tarar`s father was from the Ahrar Party. How ironic is that? What India`s religious movement sowed we have to reap.

Needless to say it is a failure in our institutions that we didn`t crush them. But then again could you crush someone who uses religion to mobilize masses. NO... why? because they had `good intentions` and `God was on their side`.

Like Gandhi these people bread fanatics they are not so themselves. A generation later we see the offspring...and by that time History has comfortably settled in with the greater ones.

Aisha

NEWSFLASH

WTC Bombing Investigations take a STARTLING TURN

CNN: A group of FBI officers have made a startling revelation that Osama and Talibans are innocent. This scandal came into light during interrogation with two young Pakis namely Yahweh Hamdani and his girlfriend Ms Sarwari who got caught in an objectionable position inside a car. They revealed that the real man behind the attacks is Gandhi. He still lives in the jungles of Amazon and runs his large network thru his agents like Osama, Mulla Omar etc. Thru yogic practices he was able to live this long. USAF is preparing to launch an air strike at the suspected place in Amazon valley. President Bush will soon deliver his previous speech with the word ``Gandhi`` replacing Laden. Specifically Prez would proudly announce that Gandhi would be ``smoked`` out of his hole and brought to justice

anarayan

I hadn`t noticed it was supposed to be ``secular`` not ``democratic`` I assumed in a democracy the people matter and in that should have been enough for the government to take a harsher stand on the Babri Mosque. Or on the Hindus brutally killing Australian Priests.

Correct me if I am wrong. Perhaps India terms democracy