War, What is it Good For?

Stuka:

“And oh yeah, there`s a really cool movie with Kate Winslet in it..I forgot the name. She becomes a cult member, and this American dude comes down to deprogram her.”

….it’s called holy smoke and the american is harvey kietel…pretty interesting with all those hindu gods/goddesses cult fanatics…

scout:

“http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/28/nomani/index.html?x

do you know this lady? maybe you two could work in conglomeration. i have a feeling she`s on the same wavelength as you as far as letting people in america know more about pakistan.”

…..beware, she’s an indian ; )

Geez Louise...just had one of those moments that inspire hamidm so; after dinner, during tea, one of my male in-laws dismissed the Saira Shah/CNN report on Afghani women in Afghanistan under the Taliban as a ``piece of propoganda``...(Is it indeed a genetic disorder that runs in most Muslim men? Can it be treated with medication? Where can I get a prescription?) Of course, I concentrated on my tea, spooning sugar into my cup, stirring the sugar, look outside the window, notice the colors...and, dear readers, said in-laws views on Osama were similarly informative. Bit my tongue just before I said, ``So you have no fear in sending your wife and two daughters to live in Afghanistan.`` Didn`t say anything. And then I left the room. Be aware, male readers; when the woman in the room doesn`t respond to what you are saying, she is being very, very, very polite, and is not in awe of your intellect.

Stuka,

I used to watch South Park sporadically when I was visiting my Ummi Jan, who has cable. My brother introduced it to me; it really rides that eversofine line between hilarious and in awfully bad taste...also Ren and Stimpy...I know that went over pretty well with some crowds; didn`t really watch it enough to say...I think Margaret Cho, who is not a cartoon, but a rather bright and satirical Korean American comedienne is the cat`s meow; once my ma and I watched her do a killer on impression of HER Korean ma. We both were dying and my mother, in between her laughter, managed to gasp, ``Shameless girl!``...and Ben Stiller usually doesn`t dissapoint...so there you have it

regards

slink #103,

hey sister, i`m fine thanks :)

i can`t tell you how good it is to see your name here again. don`t you dare disappear now.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/28/nomani/index.html?x

do you know this lady? maybe you two could work in conglomeration. i have a feeling she`s on the same wavelength as you as far as letting people in america know more about pakistan.

hey temporal...hope all things are beaming at you

saminashah..the company i work for is trying to put together a media swap of some sort (programming) so people living in america get a more realistic idea of what pakistan is really like. we`re tying up with small networks,if you`re interested in hearing more or getting involved, drop me a line at shandana@chowk.com

zafar al talib,

i`ve seen both muriels wedding and strictly ballroom. how scary is that? are you in the wonderful city of lahore?

shandana

p.s: scout..how are you?

Samina

Love the Simpsons. Ok, now I`m really goint to stretch it...d`you like South Park too??

Actually, Sinead sang,``These are dangerous days...`` and not ``interesting`` ...we`re all a little jittery ourselves for even saying that...

As Sinead O`Connor once sang ``...These are interesting days/ to say what you feel/ is to dig your own grave...``

Those who dissent will catch thinly veiled hell. Susan Sontag, well respected theorist who wrote an seminal small book deconstructing the baggage laden metaphors of AIDS developing in the West in the late 80s-early 90s, is apparently the whipping boy of the day. She had the temerity to call the media out on the carpet for ``infantilizing the American public`` during and after the attack by not reporting for several months of, say, the daily US bombing of Iraq.(such a teeny tiny little fact) Bill Maher, albeit no brain-heavy political analyst, on Politically Correct is in hot water for questioning the courage of the US in bombing Iraq`s civillian population; his show`s corporate sponsors are pulling their commercials from his airtime slot. Imagine. The govt., media, multinationals corporations working together on your agenda...yet I`m sure there will be some Chowkies who will say it ain`t so...

As some of my friends and I were discussing over dinner last night, the slightest quaver of interrogation of ``the national agenda`` brands you as unpatriotic. Christmas has come early for the right wing. Make sure your flag is big enough...

regards

Check your Sept. 24 New Yorker Magazine for details

sadna #97,

That was a great article. But then, can`t expect anything less from Salon. All Chowkies, especially the Americans, should read it.

I remember being asked by a teacher here how it was like living in Nairobi. She thought I lived in the middle of the Savannah with wild animals running around, even though I lived in the heart of the city.

In another example, during the Persian Gulf War, a couple of Sikh children in my home town were harrassed. People thought they were Arabs.

Those are just some examples of how naive adult Americans can be.

Save for Americans living in big cities, the rest of small town America do not know the difference between a Native American and a desi, or the difference between an Arab and a Sikh.

http://atimes.com/c-asia/CI29Ag05.html

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/27/stupidity/index.html

AUSSIE MOVIES

Zafar Al-Talib #95:

[....More seriously, the news here in Sydney carried a report on a grenade being thrown into an anti-Taliban MQM demonstration in Karachi. Anybody heard any more, and are all you Karachiwalas ok?...]

---all karachites in the diaspora are safe...the grenade blast did not effect them in any manner or shape...caveat...can only speak with absolute certainty about the two in ontario I know...check dawn or jung or ask jay about others...

...the movie about aussie aboriginal plight that I wrote of was rena owen’s ‘once were warriors-1994’...

...and the other about the blind photographer...was jocelyn moorehouse`s ‘proof-1991’

...other good ones to watch...three from john duigan... ‘the year my voice broke-1987’ and its sequel ‘firting-1991’ and ‘sirens-1994’.... gillian armstrong`s ‘my brilliant career-1979’ and bruce beresford`s ‘breaker morant-1980’...jocelyn moorehouse`s ‘proof-1991’

rgds,

t

Reply Temporal #92

“...frankly my dear!...don’t care two hoots if you are mutallib or talib!...just lay off karachi...it is not on the cards!...or will have cheques from both of them bounce...”

Hey, I was trying to do Karachi a favour and this is the thanks I get.

More seriously, the news here in Sydney carried a report on a grenade being thrown into an anti-Taliban MQM demonstration in Karachi. Anybody heard any more, and are all you Karachiwalas ok?

Stuka,

Thats right, Mad Max is the seminal apocalyptic futurama...I confess I haven`t seen it, but I will check it out, plus the Kate movie-I like her work. But what I really like was the Simpsons episode when the Simpson family must visit Austrailia so that Bart can apologize to the Aussie govt. and people and moons them instead. Sigh. That`s right, as my husband teases me, a grown woman who teaches and watches cartoons...but it really is brilliant and subversive...really, it is...I mean how can it not be when Homer demands, ``Marge, apologize to the t.v.``..

How can you guys not mention the best Autralian movie of all:

Mad Max...Isn`t that Australian? And oh yeah, there`s a really cool movie with Kate Winslet in it..I forgot the name. She becomes a cult member, and this American dude comes down to deprogram her.

Zafar Al-Talib#89

...frankly my dear!...don’t care two hoots if you are mutallib or talib!...just lay off karachi...it is not on the cards!...or will have cheques from both of them bounce...

..and on a less serious note...there were two other movies that I liked...sorry the names woud come back later...one was a dark and stark depiction of aboriginal plight...and the other one was about this blind photographer...

...and not to forget crocodile dundee...and jumping continents...south african gods must be crazy...

rgds,

t

RE: Zafar

``PS Actually, Goa is negotiable, but then the package must include Mumbai AND Bal Thackeray.``

Goa stays. Please, we do need a fun place to go vacation. There`s no place like Goa anywhere in south or southeast Asia - we ain`t giving it away.

Reply Saminashah # 87

Saminaji

“I have seen `Priscilla`; I stand corrected...”

Allow me to also recommend “Strictly Ballroom” – a far far better movie, and perhaps one that better reveals the Australian Heart. (! how upleasant!) Actually Muriel’s Wedding beats them both.

Zafar

Reply Sigalph #: 123

Sigalphdada

After consultation with our Minister for Morality and Correct Mindset, one Shri Tahmed, we find that although we are unable to offer you Goa, I can definitely confirm that Nagaland will be yours. I’m sorry to tell you that unless UP and Bihar are included in the bargain, West Bengal is not on offer, but we are willing to negotiate about the proportion of UP you take on. I think Allahabad, with its vibrant Bengali community, is a natural candidate for inclusion. Oh, and Tahmed has mentioned the necessity of Afghanistan becoming West Bangladesh – I’m sure you will not quibble about such a minor matter.

We are sending Jayalalitha on ahead as a muhmithai, regardless of whether deal goes through or not. She will be accompanied by her family, 7000 ADMK Activists and 38 Tamil-Bangla dictionaries and phrase books. (Typical example: “You must pay 18 lakhs into the building fund” ) Please set up some bank accounts prior to her arrival. Oh, seven elephants also will be coming.

I eagerly await your agreement.

Zafar

PS Actually, Goa is negotiable, but then the package must include Mumbai AND Bal Thackeray. Frankly I think too highly of Bangladesh to wish this upon you, and we are currently in negotiation with Dubai and also Taliban Rump Govt. with the same offer except without Goa.

PPS Would you like Nepal? How about Karachi? Willing also to throw in Orissa as a sweetner, now that you mention same. Before you say no, just think – what a ring “my Baganbari in Bhubaneshwar” has! Wouldn’t you like to be able to say that? Basically we’re willing to do whatever you want so long as you take Ayodhya….no, anything but Shah Rukh…

Zafar #84

Re Gore Vidal, I`ll keep a watch for what he says, hopefully he will be given enough time or space to say it...

Zafar Bhai,

I have seen `Priscilla`; I stand corrected...

Thank you very much...thank you...

Samina

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Reply Saminshah # 80

“I think the Land of Oz might be a good place for the King to chill in...once he trades in his studded, flared white jumpsuits for some kinder threads and a boogie board...”

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but Australia is the one country where Abba never went out of fashion…seen “Priscilla, Queen of the Desert”? Allow me to recommend it. My point is Elvis would fit right in without any changes. (Accept no substitutes.)

Reply Sadna # 81

Sadna

“And news analysis, its amazing how the same analysts sound so much more intelligent when they are on PBS. The reason is, they are given time to talk and maintain a logical continuity to hit home their point on PBS whereas on mainstream channels they are constantly interrupted by their host adhering to the dictates of the `short attention span` advertising myth….This happens even on CNN, the so-called authentic news channel.”

I’d be interested in finding out what Gore Vidal thinks about the whole thing. Apart from being in a bad mood with the world the man is prescient.

Zafar

Sadna,

Agreed. My family tends to watch BBC and PBS, I listen to NPR and Pacifica stations and when we are feeling masochistic, Ted and his cronies. More flake than a freshly baked croissant.

re: Banjara; oops...

regards!

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saminashah #80
1. Banjaara is not one of the twelve heads, I believe :).

2. I`ve been faithfully following the interesting Israel-Palestine exchange, from board to board:)

3. Re the US mainstream media and its handling of `issues` from another board. Well I think they are quite as flaky about covering THEIR OWN issues.

I thought they did a terrible job with the coverage on school shootings and the Florida Presidential election, too. I found, the way news is presented, the only authentic conclusion one can draw watching TV news is what do TV news producers think about an issue, or what do TV news producers think people think. One can just not reach ones own conclusion about anything they are covering, at all!

And news analysis, its amazing how the same analysts sound so much more intelligent when they are on PBS. The reason is, they are given time to talk and maintain a logical continuity to hit home their point on PBS whereas on mainstream channels they are constantly interrupted by their host adhering to the dictates of the `short attention span` advertising myth.

This happens even on CNN, the so-called authentic news channel. I donot watch him much but even Ted Koppel doesnot seem to display the requisite patience or faith either to really get to the bottom of any issue or to hear out what doesnot vibe with his own predetermined conclusion.

Its been said that news coverage has been a commercially losing proposition for a while, so hard news reportage had suffered severe budgetary cuts in all the TV networks in the last many years. That could be one reason for their general flakiness and the importance given to marketing news as a spectacle to suit public taste, apart from the handicap of inbuilt attitudes and tendency to stick with the government line.

Its no surprise that the media donot cover themselves in glory regarding the WTC bombings and American Muslims. They`ve made efforts to be fair and sensitive this time, that has to be granted, regardless of whether they succeeded or not.

Zafar Bhai

``Hey! You leave ELVIS out of this!...``

Something Mr.S would say...he sends his adaab to you and the Chowkwallahs, btw. He appreciates your concerns, as do I.

I think the Land of Oz might be a good place for the King to chill in...once he trades in his studded, flared white jumpsuits for some kinder threads and a boogie board...just tell him to stay away from the two Colonels: the colonel who was his pill pushing man and Colonel Saunders...and remember...don`t be cruel (sorry, couldn`t resist it!)...

Where are Sadna, Hamid and Upman? Do make an appearance, sister and bros...

Reply Saminashah # 76

“Maybe you should weegee them …Then see if Elvis is around.”

Hey! You LEAVE ELVIS OUT OF THIS!!!!!

Zafar

PS Did I tell you I saw him lining up for a Salvation Army free lunch here in Sydney a month ago? Sach, kasam khatha hoon, it was him, and I think he recognised me you know, otherwise why would he have asked me for a dollar…..no, no, blue suede shoes se patha laga…no, yaar, white sports coat aur pink carnation tho overkill hotha, na…Elvis tho hamesha se subtul aadmi hai…what do you mean “dead”?… bukwas!….nahin, dekhiye, aap urstruly se bhi poochhiye, voh aap ko samajha denge…

Saminashah # 76

Samina bibi you are on the wrong board.I know you are angry,but please cool down and contact Burke School of Peerage located in London,UK and learn some basics before refuting HRH.I have already

assured HRH that you will do that.Now be a good

person( I didn`t use the word girl,incase you call

me patronizing:)and get on the right board.

Regards.

Sigalph,

Exactly the theme I was hoping you`d reveal when you overplayed your hand. The notion that Palestinians could not take care of themselves will shortly be followed by the line,``...and Israel created a green and watered heaven where before there was an infertile desert...``.

I suppose we could tell all the Christian and Muslim Palestinian farmers whose trees were bulldozed and whose land was confiscated that those trees really did not exist. We could tell those Christian and Muslim refugees (whose numbers are growing, thanks to the agressive expansion of Israeli settlements) that their land was a figment of their imaginations. Perhaps we could tell the Christian and Muslim workers and laborers whose mobility and incomes depend on the whims of the Israeli administration and the current state of civil insurgency; of course you`d have to convince all of us that these civil insurgencies are created by Muslim Arabs who really live in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and not really indigenous, can we say the word, ``Palestinian``?. (And lets not even begin to talk about Lebanon.)Also, those passes Christian and Muslim Gazan and West Bank Palestinians carry?-Not at all similar to South Africa`s apartheid system. The refugee camps that hold political prisoners are really holding pens for Islamic malcontents who don`t know better, they should thank Israeli excursions into their houses, and roads made inaccessible for emergency medical care, because they have been given the gift of Western Democracy. Above all, we must be convinced of all the myths that rest on the belief that the natives are uncontrollable, they are savage children, the natives must produce leaders we approve of, the natives cannot be trusted, our version of democracy is not based on first, second and third class citizenship,and so on.

Where does Israel get its money from? Why is not Israel`s treatment of the Palestinian civillian population considered state terrorism? You know what term means, Sig, don`t you?

My respect to your ancestors. Maybe you should weegee them and see what they have to say on this matter. Ask them if some people are more human than others. Then see if Elvis is around.

regards

Sigalph,

Exactly the theme I was hoping you`d reveal when you overplayed your hand. The notion that Palestinians could not take care of themselves will shortly be followed by the line,``...and Israel created a green and watered heaven where before there was an infertile desert...``.

I suppose we could tell all the Christian and Muslim Palestinian farmers whose trees were bulldozed and whose land was confiscated that those trees really did not exist. We could tell those Christian and Muslim refugees (whose numbers are growing, thanks to the agressive expansion of Israeli settlements) that their land was a figment of their imaginations. Perhaps we could tell the Christian and Muslim workers and laborers whose mobility and incomes depend on the whims of the Israeli administration and the current state of civil insurgency; of course you`d have to convince all of us that these civil insurgencies are created by Muslim Arabs who really live in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and not really indigenous, can we say the word, ``Palestinian``?. (And lets not even begin to talk about Lebanon.)Also, those passes Christian and Muslim Gazan and West Bank Palestinians carry?-Not at all similar to South Africa`s apartheid system. The refugee camps that hold political prisoners are really holding pens for Islamic malcontents who don`t know better, they should thank Israeli excursions into their houses, and roads made inaccessible for emergency medical care, because they have been given the gift of Western Democracy. Above all, we must be convinced of all the myths that rest on the belief that the natives are uncontrollable, they are savage children, the natives must produce leaders we approve of, the natives cannot be trusted, our version of democracy is not based on first, second and third class citizenship,and so on.

Where does Israel get its money from? Why is not Israel`s treatment of the Palestinian civillian population considered state terrorism? You know what term means, Sig, don`t you?

My respect to your ancestors. Maybe you should weegee them and see what they have to say on this matter. Ask them if some people are more human than others. Then see if Elvis is around.

regards

Zahra #74 You are quoting from my favorite statesman, Abe Lincoln. I think his words ``With malice towards none...`` are the most profound words of the last millenium.

RSaxena:

I am reposting the words of A.Licoln that I quoted earlier:

``We have been preserved, these many years, in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power, as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us!
It behooves us, then, to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness.``

Abraham Licoln(1863)

Reading your thoughts, I do not think you understood the context. I was quoting the above after listening to the repeated complaints/whining of the bubbly lady at a local mall. And I was saying that Insaan Kissee Haal Main Khush Naheen Rehtaa. I told her to be thankful for what she had than whining unnecessarily. People, around are going through worse issues than hers. So, we need to be in peace with what we have. Now, whether we think we are the chosen ones or we acquired that on our own ...whatever, that`s a personal thing. I stated what I liked and I believe in. Now, if you do not believe in the concept of God that`s your prerogative. I have known of a few friends and had some suitors who were in the boat - and it`s an approach. I am stating another approach, in response to, what I ran into; and that is what I believe in and it is the thought process of the majority. That`s it!

I do not think you were being cynical. I think you just mistook the quote; but wanted to introduce your perspective. If the saying spurred something inside, that`s great!


Welcome to the Real You :)!

RSaxena

``I don`t think helpless and innocent Afghanis ``deserve`` misery and suffering. They don`t deserve it, but it is also not America`s responsibility to save them from it. There is an important but subtle difference. I have said in the past that I can`t care about suffering in every corner of the world - but that is removed from saying they ``deserve`` it.

``

I accept your correction. The word ``deserve`` was inappropriate. My feelings on this issue are best reflected in the statement ``God(if there is any) helps those who help themselves``.

Akash #70, ``Perhaps you have heard ``God helps those who help themselves``.``

God also helps people who help others. It`s better to help where you can, and not hurt if you can help it.

Suxena #69,

As long as your hand reads what I wrote, it doesn`t matter if you`re ashamed of facing my questions to you. Buzdil insaan.

Re: Akash #70

I don`t think helpless and innocent Afghanis ``deserve`` misery and suffering. They don`t deserve it, but it is also not America`s responsibility to save them from it. There is an important but subtle difference. I have said in the past that I can`t care about suffering in every corner of the world - but that is removed from saying they ``deserve`` it.

By the way, don`t Indians also deserve the governments they get? Especially since they elect their own governments. There are two different levels of thinking here. Yes, you can blame the parents for making idiotic choices in the voting booth, but how can you blame their newborn child who will live a miserable life due to no fault of its own??

Scout#68

``the people of Afghanistan never even saw what freedom has to offer, and they will die with nothing save hardship in their pockets. where does your humanity go then?

``

Sorry to intervene but I had to say. Perhaps you have heard ``God helps those who help themselves``. People of Afganistan deserve it. They deserve it for having failed to resist an extreme fundamentalist version of Islam. They deserve it for sticking to their medieval ways and having failed to modernise themselves. They deserve it because history is not kind to those who keep fighting amongst themselves over tribal affiliations. Such people are thrown into the dustbin of the history. You may call me cruel, amoral, but alas this is the reality of the world. Those who fail to reform, perish. America is not responsible for their condition, they themselves are.

Re: scout #68

Like I said, talk to the hand.

rsaxena,

yes, NYers lost a lot and continue to suffer...

the people of Afghanistan never even saw what freedom has to offer, and they will die with nothing save hardship in their pockets. where does your humanity go then?

is your humane nature limited to Christians and Jews alone? Before you insult me or try to curtail the issue, answer that.

Re: Zahra

``I read your thoughts on the little changes in one`s daily life; and how we`ve started feeling guilty every now and then before considering any distraction from the current wave of melancholy.

Mujhae Woh Post Mil Nahi Rahi and I cannot seem to find the board therefore I am just putting my thoughts here: I had to acknowledge the sentiments expressed in your post and wanted to say ``ditto`` to them!``

This is a real human dilemna that many New Yorkers face. You try to live life as you normally would, but you can`t. You can neither focus on your life and its problems or take pride or joy in what you do have. It is a difficult feeling to describe. You feel guilty worrying about your problems because they pale in comparsion to what others just like you suffered that day; you feel ashamed taking pride or joy in what you do have because you feel you don`t deserve it as much as people who gave up their lives trying to rescue others.

``Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us!``

I think God neither gave us what we have nor took anything away. Man created it, man took it away. It is 2 buildings today, it could be a meteor the size of Canada blowing up the planet tomorrow and taking all of us - old, young, saint, sinner, good, bad, dumb, intelligent - with it. (Sorry, I don`t mean to paint such a cynical picture of life but we have no choice but to acccept it.)

TAhmed: I categorized the email as an interesting one. It was not very clear. I think a lot of these mass emails are being sent out to invoke emotions. The other day, I got a silly email from a pretty sane friend, who was forwarding messages from other american friends, who feared that there will be some other attacks in near future. Now, I consider this full fledge paranoia. Some are promoting the bio-terrorism`s chances - plain buk buk. Anything can happen any time on the face of earth; how can we continue thinking....... what next what next. That can drive people nuts. As a friend mentioned, she is taking it day by day.

But on the other hand, I think the intent of that email was that US should not go into any war; but should get hold of the terrorists. Now, how will that happen? Probably, some armed para-troopers will need to land in Kabul`s vicinity and take some action in finding out the culprits. This is a pretty weak plan - not a viable one. The mountains and terrains will not welcome the para-troopers from what I have seen on TV. So, I think the intent was to raise the awareness that war is not going to do any good. You may demolish each and every building of Kabul to ground zero, but the network of the terrorists is so widespread(as CNN informed)that it won`t touch them at all. So, that`s another irony. But from the current views of President Bush, it seems that Talibans`s rule will be coming to an end pretty soon. And very soon, the sad and lawless land will be wiped off the curse known as Talibaans! I am not sure if you watched Bush`s speech but it indicated the malpractices being performed under the Talibaans rule. He also brought up the issue of women`s treatment in Aghanistan under Taliban`s Rule. His mention of that issue at this time, said something.

later,

Zahra #63 On the email you posted, on the one hand it talks about the need to oppose terrorism, on the other about avoiding a ``full scale war``? The only ``information`` the email contains is that the writer is a moron who can only talk in meaningless generalities - and manages, as only a particularly pathetic moron could, to contradict himself even at the level of generalities.

Sikhs disappointed with Bush`s address

S. Rajagopalan

Washington, September 21



American Sikhs are a trifle disappointed with President Bush`s address to the Congress last night for it did not specifically refer to the attacks on members of the community. Bush did send out a strong message, but in general terms without identifying the affected communities or groups.

``No one should be singled out for unfair treatment or unkind words because of their ethnic background or religious faith,`` he said while focussing on the backlash sparked by `Black Tuesday`. His comment drew strong support from the assembled lawmakers.

Sikh leaders, too, have welcomed his observation, but they say it would have been of great help if President Bush had referred to the mistaken attacks on the Sikhs. ``After all, we have become easy targets because of our beards and turbans,`` bemoaned Amrit Jit Singh Sethi, a businessman.

Sikh scholar Rajwant Singh, who was part of a religious delegation that called on Bush on Thursday, wants him to visit a ``gurdwara`` just as he had visited a mosque a few days ago. ``That, along with a statement, will go a long way in ending this tragic misunderstanding about the Sikhs.``

``I apprised the President of the attacks on the community. He was very understanding and told me that he has directed the Justice Department to deal with the problem,`` said Singh, who too was hoping for a specific reference to the harassment of the Sikhs.

Mohinder Singh, the Los Angeles-based editor of the India Journal, would also have wanted Bush to reach out to the Sikhs. ``It was a brilliant speech otherwise. No doubt, Bush carried the day.``

However, not all Sikh leaders fault Bush. Dr I.J. Singh, a Sikh professor of anatomy in New York University, says Bush could not have made a specific reference to the Sikhs since so many ethnic groups have been targeted. ``If he has tried to reassure the Muslims specifically, it is because the US is about to wage a war against Islamic fundamentalists.``

Surinder Malhotra, president of the Indian National Overseas Congress, gave Bush the benefit of the doubt. ``It was a very good speech. If he had spoken of the Sikhs plight, it would have been helpful. Anyway, I am sure this omission was not due to any lack of sensitivity.``

Just forwarding an interesting email. I do not agree with the following 100%. And I think some strong actions have to be taken against the Talibaans and their pagal pun, aside from the maniacs who were involved in the current catastrophe. But still I am forwarding the following for information sake.

Dear Friends,

US leaders are currently in a media campaign to
convince the US population and the world population that a major war is needed to keep the planet safe.

If you believe, like I do, that a major war will
destabilize the international situation, please
contact the President, your Senators and
Congressperson ASAP. They will follow public opinion,and currently public opinion polls are stating that only 8% of the US population is opposed to a major war.

It is time for all to make our voices heard. Here are some talking points to use when calling your elected officials. Feel free to add your own.

*It is imperative to find the terrorists and
prevent them from acting again.
*Such action should have broad international
support.
*Such action should use the least force necessary to accomplish the mission.
*You are strongly opposed to a full-scale war.
*Full scale war will have the following results:

-It will destabilize the international situation
-It will lead those that we attack to retaliate
further.
-It will increase the suffering of Americans
through further casualties.
-It will increase the suffering on the planet.
-It will lead to further hostilities, rather than to peace.
-It will put us in further danger, rather than to make us safer.
-You urge our leaders to use restraint, to use the least force possible.

Peace,

May all beings be at peace.
May all beings be free from suffering.

To contact the White House
SWITCHBOARD: 202-456-1414
FAX: 202-456-2461
President George W. Bush: president@whitehouse.gov
Vice President Dick Cheney: vice.president@whitehouse.gov
Laura Bush: first.lady@whitehouse.gov
Lynne Cheney: mrs.cheney@whitehouse.gov
To find your senators` office addresses and phone
numbers, go to http://www.senate.gov/
You may also phone the United States Capitol
switchboard at (202) 224-3121 and an operator will connect you directly with the Senate office you request.

To find your Representatives website, which should
list office addresses and phone numbers, go to
http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW.html
Or you can email your representative by going to
http://www.house.gov/writerep/

Stuka #61 disagreed, sorry. If it is wrong to distinguish between ``our`` vs. ``their`` innocent people, then it is always wrong. Not sometimes right (when convenient), sometimes wrong (when not convenient). please think about it.

TAhmed

You`re right I do. This ruthlessness can be a strength as well as a weakness, depending on the situation...

Stuka #55 Agreed mostly. I do think you distinguish unduly between ``ours`` or ``theirs`` innocent lives, though.

I have been away too long it seems.
There are now TWENTYFOUR public toilets now?
Amazing progress!

War, what is it good for?
1) Ego Trips
2) The economy
3) The economy.....

Ras

Aamir

I dont ever disagree with what an intelligent man like you writes. Nobody can disagree with intelligent individuals like you/fartimah/shah/bhonpu, ylh, urstruly, and hobbyty.

A little levity is needed at this point. If anyone is interested in knowing what Anglo-Pakistani writer Hanif Kureishi is up to lately, (My Beautiful Laundrette, Sammy and Rosie, Buddha of Suburbia)check out his website:www.hanifkureishi.com. I thought this post might be appropriate on a message board that is featuring an interestingly creative piece.

regards

Stuka #55
Talking of innocent people and retaliations with specific reference to Afghanistan.

I heard the ex-chief of CIA operations in Pakistan say on Charlie Rose(PBS) two days ago that dropping bombs on Afghanistan is good for only moving rubble from one place to another or moving rocks. And an article in today`s New York Times editorial page quotes GW Bush himself:

`` President Bush summarized the problem pretty well this week when he told Congressional leaders that it makes no sense to use $2 million cruise missiles to attack empty $10 tents....``

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/20/opinion/20THU3.html
An Imbalance of Power: Afghanistan`s Deceptive Strengths``

``... As an environment for military conflict, Afghanistan is virtually impervious to American power. Not only does it lack the ``high-value`` targets that are commonly attacked in modern warfare, it lacks almost any meaningful targets at all, unless the United States is prepared to bomb government offices and residential neighborhoods, producing many civilian casualties.

The arsenal of advanced weapons that the United States used with some success against Iraq in the Persian Gulf war and against Serbia during the conflict over Kosovo is likely to be neutralized by the backward state of Afghanistan. There is no need for billion-dollar radar-evading airplanes because Afghanistan has only the most feeble air defenses. Laser-guided missiles that can knife down the chimney of a munitions factory are of little use in a nation that lacks an arms industry. Fancy electronic-jamming equipment doesn`t mean much against an opponent that has no systems to jam. President Bush summarized the problem pretty well this week when he told Congressional leaders that it makes no sense to use $2 million cruise missiles to attack empty $10 tents...``
(end excerpt)

IMO, waging war is no good if it doesnot accomplish anything except increase the misery of the already miserable who are innocent. If this war is to be waged at all, to eb successful in its aims, it needs to be waged intelligently, and with unambigous focus on the guilty only.

TAhmed:

``This may seem a contradiction of what I said above, but note: The US must go after the perpetrators, even if it means loss of life, sine the alternative is almost certainly worse - more such attacks. War is indeed evil, but sometimes there is no choice and this is the terrible cross-roads to which these attacks have brought the US. It is little different than the terrible decision the US had to make last Tuesday to shoot down the airliner headed for Washington in order to prevent bigger loss of life on the ground (a decision that thankfully no pilot was forced to implement due to the courage of the passengers in that plane who died anyway but almost certainly saved hundreds of lives on the ground).

The central conclusions one reaches therefore is: Killing innocent people for retribution, or for any other purpose is never justified. ``

If this is the sum total of what you mean, you are on the same side as me. Look, I am not advocating, or at least didn`t mean, advocate the killing of innocents for the sake of killing. Of what purpose is that?

BUT, I know that when we retaliate, innocent people will die. There is no mistake about that either. All I`m saying, and you too are saying, that the certain death of innocents should not deter us from retaliation.

Where I think I go further is when I say that the US gov`t is more responsible for American lives as compared to the lives of innocent people in enemy country or hostile countries. The choice of weapons that I advocate would be those which minimize American deaths even if they lead to a higher incidence of casualties in the hostile territory. There is nothing unique about what I am saying, coz similar arguements were made in WW2, when Japan was nuked. (I am not advocating nuclear weapon strikes, just drawing a paralell)

TAhmed Sie, with due respect, I agree war is evil. Ideally, Sept 11 should have been a day as any other. But it wasn`t. War was brought to our doorstep. Now we must fight it, to the best of our capability, with minimum loss of life for our side.

Stuka

ID: Buddy, I am not hate ridden for Pakistan. At least not most of the time. Sometimes, things happen or people say things that make me hate Pakistan, but its a temporary phenomenon. Howevr, I do hate people and institutions who are trying to destroy my way of life. People who say my way or the highway. Yes, I hate them for they have no right to do that. Pakistanis, here or in their own country, who are horrified by what happened, why would I hate them? I have no reason too. I have not interacted much with you before, and I don`t know where you stand. But, look at the Pakistanis who condemn this, Scout, TAhmed, even YLH. But I do hate people like UrsTruly. I do. And I am not ashamed of it. Because I know that he and his ilk will either not let me survive or they will not survive. It is therefore in my self interest to see that his ilk does not survive.

HobbyTy recently said that when he talked of Souroush the Indians did not show interest but the moment fanatics are discussed all the Indians start sputing...well D`UH OBVIOUSLY...I am not interested in anyreligion, Islam Christianity anything...I am not interested in what these religions stand for, what they are, nothing. I only know if I am being allowed to live in peace. If the advocate of any religion says, follow me if you want to.. hey great. People who want to follow those advocates can do. I don`t care. But ut if the advocate of any religion says, follow me or else...that`s now my problem. That is a threat to me and my way of life. If Souroush or whoever is a pluralist, ie allows me to do my own thing, that`s all I need to know...Don`t need details about him because my interest does not extend to that direction....But if Al Badr or some random dude says ``this is how things should be`` or advocates an Islamic socirty in a place where that are enough more non-muslims, dude, I hate that person. I don`t care what the taliban does in Afghanistan. That`s their country. But if they want to export their problems to the US, of for that matter India, I say smoke them down. You`d probably feel the same way if I tried to shove hinduism down your throat.

Rsaxena # 16

``What still haunts me and makes me lose sleep every night is thinking about the victims` last moments of life. I can only imagine how much more horrible it is for people like this fellow who had a vivid and up-close experience with it. ``

I know what you`re saying. For me, it was just the media, and talking to people who were there that did it. I guess you are coming back to a semblance of normal now. I know I am. I guess I was way more affected too coz its New York, coz its a city I travel to all the time, and have lots of friends and family there. Anyway, one can only look ahead, thoigh I know it`ll be much harder for the ones who actually lost people.

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RSaxena:

I read your thoughts on the little changes in one`s daily life; and how we`ve started feeling guilty every now and then before considering any distraction from the current wave of melancholy.

Mujhae Woh Post Mil Nahi Rahi and I cannot seem to find the board therefore I am just putting my thoughts here: I had to acknowledge the sentiments expressed in your post and wanted to say ``ditto`` to them!

I was at the mall the other day when a bubbly sales rep. started complaining about her work hours and the fact that she never had a chance to go outside that day and a get a feel for the weather. She continued with her questions and complaints; and something inside forced me to tell her that her surroundings and store were much better than the scene of the disaster. She had lights, clean air, no breathing masks, no dinginess and no chaos. What about being thankful to God for that? For a second, she went silent and then said, `you are right! I agree.`

Before I headed out, she gave me about 20 or so samples of their new line and had a very polite smile on her face.

I guess the following seems pertinent here:

``We have been preserved, these many years, in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power, as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us!

It behooves us, then, to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness.``

Abraham Licoln(1863)

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Ref Studebaker #: 39

[For Indians spl. from South who have very less knowlege of true ISLAm,& muslims who understand the spirit of Islams ,& concepts,Principles & hidden meaning (maslehat) Intentions behind at .No wonder JAY,Harimou,Gowardhan etc dont GET IT .]

Oh, thanks for enlightening poor benighted souls like me.

I guess the speaker forgot to compare those verses in The Book about killing the kaffirs with something from a Hindu scripture about killing the non-Hindus. I wonder why. Could it be that he couldn`t find a comparable verse in any Hindu text?

You know, he could have compared the statement about how the Mujahiddeen get 72 houris when they kill the kaffirs against Krishna`s advice to Arjun that he must fight and kill his cousins. Except, Krishna didn`t promise any celestial maidens. In fact, he said to Arjun, ``Do your duty without expectation of reward. That is the mark of a `karma yogi`. This is a fight between good and evil. The sin of killing shall not fall on you but on me.`` You know, even for the warrior caste of kshatriyas, there is sin in killing people. Except when God Incarnate on Earth accepts the sin on his head.

Don`t compare the qat-induced ravings of a mixed-up man having a middle-age crisis with the scriptures of any religion.

And stop your bullcrap about discrimination against Muslims in India. You have an MBBS and the speaker whom you have quoted graduated from an IIT.

Re: Shah

``Saxenna ,before cursing me curse your Hindian,when you compare them with Americans.Thats your folly buddy .``

Jacka$$, don`t try to sneak out of your madrassah rat hole by trying to change the topic. You posted an article cursing ``Hindians`` without noticing that the 2 people arrested were Muslims.

Admit it, your parents parcelled you off to the nearest Madrassah and you never learned to read well.

And moving on to your new topic, the last 3 times India went to war with Pakistan and was faced with major crises, it whipped your Paki behinds black and blue. And then there was Kargil. With Tim Sebastian of the BBC catching Musharraf lying like the red-faced baboon he is and NS running to Washington to get instructions from Pakistan`s kennel keeper, the world got a great laugh at Pakistan. Muahahahahaha

I attended a South Asian rally over lunchtime at the Japanese American Memorial in Washington DC today. About 30% were South Asian, others were mostly anglos and few east asians. And five or six smartly uniformed gentlemen, each bearing a US flag, and with the words ``World War II Veteran`` written on their caps - they were members of the famed Japanese-American unit in WWII that won more medals than any other unit. The rally was opened by a Pakistani woman, and there were three or four Indian speakers. They all spoke very well about all Americans uniting together as one family; about no religion condoning violence and terrorism; about hate crimes against South Asians. One of the WWII veterans felt dizzy near the end, and we had him lie down - he was silent, smiling as if embarassed.

On my way home, it hit me - not one of the speakers had thought of introducing these distinguished gentlemen to the audience. And yet, these elderly people who had no doubt fought bravely in against the Germans in WWII and were now living icons of this great country and a part of it`s history, quietly stood erect in their smart uniforms, holding US flag through the end of the ceremony, and then left. Except the gentleman who became dizzy, and for whom an ambulance was summoned.

Attention YLH

Here is one more ``foreign`` and reliable reference on the ``defeat`` of Pak in 1947-48 war and 1965 war against India. This time it is CNN website.

Go to the countrywatch and read the history of Pakistan. I am producing the following relevent excerpt.

``

Ayub Khan kept his grip intact on both the civil society as well as the armed forces of Pakistan. He also led Pakistan into its second war with India in 1965, which began when India alleged that Pakistan was aiding and instigating armed groups to infiltrate Kashmir and attack Indian forces there. However, as in 1947-48, the Indians defeated the Pakistani army. This loss had serious consequences on the domestic politics of Pakistan. Ayub Khan s power declined sharply, leading to large-scale political and economic grievances all over the country. There were massive agitations and movements against Ayub Khan s rule and that forced his resignation in March 1969

``

Pakis

For all the ``ghadiyaali aansoo`` ie crocodile tears that you people jerk and for all you talk about humanity, your CEO Mushy has different opinions. Acc to him, innocent people die in any struggle. It is their fate. Indians, beware of these hypocrites who will chant humanity one day and kill innocent people the other day in the name of ``freedom struggle``.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/160901/detvir42.asp

``Instead, the first image to flash into my mind was of General Pervez Musharraf. I was back at Agra’s Amar Vilas, listening to the General at our breakfast meeting. He had finished lecturing us on trust and the will of the people when Prannoy Roy asked him about terrorism. How could it ever be right, Prannoy asked, to bomb bus stops, to murder school girls and to talk of ‘indigenous freedom struggles’ in the same breath?

The General was not at all fazed. He’d been annoyed when I told him that nobody in India trusted him after Kargil but a question about supporting the murder of school children caused him no anguish whatsoever. I waited for him to condemn terrorism, even if only for form’s sake. But, he surprised all of us.

Well, he said, these things are inevitable. In any struggle — and I think he mentioned Palestine, though I can’t swear that he did — innocent people die. As far as he was concerned, he shrugged, that was that.

His words came back to haunt me as I saw the endless replays of the plane flying into the World Trade Center; the mushroom clouds of smoke rising above the island of Manhattan; the fireballs chasing passersby through the streets of New York; the buildings collapsing on 200 brave firefighters and God alone knows how many thousand innocent civilians, trapped inside the wreckage; and the mothers and children who waited tearfully behind the police lines to see if their husbands and fathers would ever come home again.

Inevitable. These things were inevitable, the General said.

``

Studbaker

[Let me explain in this way. Hindus , Muslims , Christian , Sikhs etc pray the same Almighty Creator by calling Him with various names. The same Creator created , Sun, rain, air etc. that are necessary for life. When the sun rises in west can Muslims claim their right that it should only throw its rays wherever they live can Hindus or others say so OR does the Sun throws its light with any discrimination? Does it show any favoritism. When the air flows , can only Muslims breath its oxygen or can only Hindus have their right over its constituents. Does the air does some discrimination among human being . Same is the case with rain. The “panch tattva” (Hawa, pani, agni, soil….) as per Hindu philosophy on earth , created by the Almighty creator do not belong to Hindus alone but to whole mankind on earth.]

Glad to know you believe this. I guess you dont believe in this kafir business. You couldn`t also believe in stuff like people of the book and people not of the book. You would oppose discriminate against non muslims in muslim countries.

That is great news.

AAmir 38

[Mossad strikes]

That is true!

I confirmed it with Pakistani newspapers. They all agree. Truth has come out. Paki Afghanis Islam in danger!!!

George Bush was leading the hijackers.

DOES ANYONE KNOW GEORGE BUSH WAS MISSING WHEN HIJACKING TOOK PLACE??????????!!!!!!!!!!

IT WAS GEORGE BUSH!!!!!!

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This is an advance notice!

MUSLIM PEACE RALLY
The Muslim Community in New York expresses deep
shock and outrage at the reprehensible attack on the WTC and the Pentagon. We condemn this horrible
attack and join our fellow Americans in this hour
of grief. Please join us for prayer and reflection at a Peace Rally


FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 21, 2001
MADISON SQUARE PARK
23rd Street/Fifth Avenue
From 5:30 - 7:00 p.m


Directions: Take N/R to 23rd Street/Fifth Ave.
Sponsored by:
-American Sufi Muslim Association
-Islamic Center of Long Island
-Al-Rahman Foundation, Inc. and Al-Rahman Masjid
-Arab American Family Support Center, Brooklyn
-CAIR - NY
-Muslim Charity Networks (www.muslimcharity.org)
-SAKHI for South Asian Women
-VIRSA Pakistan
-Women for Afghan Women

ref: id #35

Dear id,

I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that even ``a successul person who is humble and works in the interests of all those who surround him``, is not likely to be spared ``jealousy, hatred, envy, covet``. All it needs is a person who is unsuccessful enough and not strong enough to be able to deal with his own weaknesses. There are always enough of such people around. After all, it is easier to hate others than to hate oneself.

The greatest people in history have always been assassinated by lesser humans: Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln to name but a few.

-narain

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tahmad:

You are absolutely correct in your reply to Stuka.

Stuka:

From the previous posts of yours, you seemed like a person who understands humanity. You have not been involved in hate as some of the other indians have on this board.

But I do fail to understand when you talk about taking revenge. It would be foolish of any pakistani after an attack by the indians to kill off other indians who were not involved in the act of terrorism. That is exactly what happened during the partition, and you cannot justify the number of killings by both hindus and muslims over a period of 1 yr.

When America talks about freedom, the right to choose, it needs to realize that due to the negligence in its own foriegn policies, it denied freedom to people from other parts of the world. Maybe it was due to self preservation, self interests. But that is precisely what makes america a bad guy in other nations eyes.

Take an example of an egoistic successful person. Would you like talking to a person who only cares about himself and what success he has acheived, maybe even at the expense of others. I would for sure despise this kind of person.

On the other hand, a successul person who is humble and works in the interests of all those who surround him is the one in my eyes which deserves respect and admiration. Greatness can be defined as being humble in success. And thats what america lacks ``greatness``.

Jealousy, hatred, envy, covet, all these emerge from a successful person who gloats, rubs it in your face. And as Al Pacino says ``Vanity is my favorite sin``, it makes a lot of sense.

Chotu :

i agree with you, but not the way americans intend the war.

This is Pakistan`s war as much as America`s. Over 2 years ago Pakistan had sent a list of 60 wanted terrorists that are hiding in Afghanistan. The list included the names of Riaz Basra and Lal Mohammad who are responsible for many shia killings in Pakistan. The same people who took responsibility for Shaukat Mirza`s murder as per Dawn.

Taliban asked for proof of their crimes.... Pakistan took around 2-3 months to provide proof on the most wanted ones. After the proof was provided the Taliban stated that the terrorists are not in Afghanistan. This sequence of events was reported in Dawn and Friday Times.

The Taliban will lie and kill to protect terrorists because they share the same ideology. Even if there is a civil war in Pakistan, this cleansing of the terrorists must occur and is better for Pakistan in the long run.

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Stuka:

I read your friend`s story and found it both interesting and sad. I am glad the Pakistani trusted the Jewish Chap. But personally, I am amazed as well. Why would not he? Or why should not he? I would like to be trusted in any situation, regardless of war or peace, being a Muslim. So, why should not I trust a Christian or a Jew? All the angels of this world have not landed amongst Muslims; they are amongst Jews and Christians as well.

Indeed, human beings have personal biases due to preconceived notions or whatever; and all communities have them. But in general, I have not come across racists or biased folks in NY City at all. I found Midwest to be far more racist as compared to any other region. If you are dark-haired you stand out! East Coast, in general, represents educated immigrants from all over the world and they add to the life of NY City.

In my case, I was heading towards the City for a meeting when I received repeated phone calls from my friend, a staunch Catholic sitting in Southwest, worrying for my safety. Her numerous phone calls and messages made me change my plan and alerted me; otherwise I was on my way. I would never think of doubting her for a minute, just because she is a Non-Muslim. But in your example, the chap did not know the Jewish Guy - so there may be some hesitance. Still, no offense meant, I find it silly to doubt a person based on his faith. That`s rubbish. But, I completely understand that your friend was stating his experience at that crucial time and had a thought from his own perspective!

Some lunatics have started sending out chain emails with the message that oh, it may be the jews who have planted this thing against the muslims. I cannot believe it. Yes, jews run the media and we hear all kinds of stories, but our people are also paranoid! There are all kinds of crooks and saints in each faith and belief system.

Some are writing saheefas on the uthnae bathnae kee habits of the sick terrorists: alcohol, nude clubs and other indulgences as described in NY Times. We are ashamed of that as a community. But, ironically, we cannot go out and chant for all Muslims that they do not indulge or dip themselves in alcohol or other bad things. Can we? Can anyone do that?

I strongly feel that we need to acknowledge that there are good and bad amongst Muslims, who exist on the face of earth, just like in all other religions and faiths. I think the fact that no one has spelled this out is causing more havoc. Islam has a concept of Shaitaan/Satan/Evil as well. We read:

- Ih`din`a`sirat`ul`mustaqeem
- Qul`Aa`o`zo Bi`rab`il`falaq
- Qul`Aa`o`zo Bi`rab`in`aas

Now, I`ve heard everyone emphasizing it was a small group that was celebrating(sickos)/a small group that went into this Holy War(maniacs) and etc etc on the media - I have not heard anyone spelling out this logic that we have bad people like all other religions. Why do not we accept that? Or probably, it was stated but in different terms - but to expect the people following a certain belief to be 100% perfect(angels and saints)is asking too much and that`s unfair!

- rest later,

Take Care.

In my previous note, where I write ``the ends justify the means, even if the ``means`` involve attacking innocent people`` please add the words ``for evil, the ends justify the means...for good, the means are as important as the ends``. This makes clearer what I meant to say.

Stuka #12 ``TO THE PAKISTANIS ADVOCATING RESTRAINT..,``

I am a Pakistani, and I am not sure what you mean by ``advocating restraint``. So I refer below to the pieces from the remainder of your post to see what you mean.

You continue: ``I ask you this... Imagine Bombs exploding in Clifton and Defence. Imagine 5000 of Pakistan`s best and brightest killed by Hindu fanatics of the Bajrang Dal in a matter of a couple of hours....Imagine the international media showing Hindus in India celebrating and dancing on the streets...Would you worry about the innocent Hindus who have no part in the attack? ``

Are you, as an ``innocent Hindu``, therefore justifying that someone in New York can kill you despite your having nothing to do with this deed and indeed to have obviously grieved at this tragedy? Sorry to be blunt here, but it is important that we are clear on this central issue that separates good from evil: the ends justify the means, even if the ``means`` involve attacking innocent people.

``Imagine, that the Indian gov`t refuses to hand over the perpetrators to you...What would you advocate your country`s government to do??``

The same as what the US is doing: be ready to go to war. This may seem a contradiction of what I said above, but note: The US must go after the perpetrators, even if it means loss of life, sine the alternative is almost certainly worse - more such attacks. War is indeed evil, but sometimes there is no choice and this is the terrible cross-roads to which these attacks have brought the US. It is little different than the terrible decision the US had to make last Tuesday to shoot down the airliner headed for Washington in order to prevent bigger loss of life on the ground (a decision that thankfully no pilot was forced to implement due to the courage of the passengers in that plane who died anyway but almost certainly saved hundreds of lives on the ground).

The central conclusions one reaches therefore is: Killing innocent people for retribution, or for any other purpose is never justified. Never, ever. With one exception: if the option is the loss of more innocent lives in future.

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From AAmir the illiterate`s cut-n-paste post:

``The offer was highly unlikely to be used by America: India has no common international border with Afghanistan and any US troop based on Indian soil would still have to be flown through Pakistan’s air space into Afghan territory, the analysts said.``

Is it geography or is it a new found love for military dictatorships and terrorist harboring countries which drives US decisions?

Read Usman Farman`s deeply moving article. He had the first hand experience of the WTC trauma that galvanised the bonds of humanity between different creeds, races and religions. The jewish gentleman who pulled him away from the path of the wall of death was a great person, a very very tall figure.

Baghdad has suffered successive urban disasters of a much greater magnitude for the past 12 years, as a result of US bombing. Grozny was virtually flattened, with an estimated 130,000 urban deaths. Whole neighborhoods in Palestine / Lebanon have evaporated in a similar fashion. The Indian Army in Kashmir destroys villages and communities in much the same manner on a routine basis.

Very soon, you shall see a repeat performance on a much more horrific scale in Afghanistan - this time, we Pakistanis will be a party to it.

NYC WTC carnage is a crime against humanity. So are others ... . Right now Presidnet Bush is being urged to show leadership; i.e. shed more blood of innocents in a far off corner of the world - to even or better the ``baseball score``

We Pakistanis are ... ``Begani Shaadi Mein Abdulla Divana``. We wanna serve as hired guns for a petty salary - or perhaps no salary.

Where is our conscience ?????

In my previous note, where I write ``the ends justify the means, even if the ``means`` involve attacking innocent people`` please add the words ``for evil, the ends justify the means...for good, the means are as important as the ends``. This makes clearer what I meant to say.

Stuka #12 ``TO THE PAKISTANIS ADVOCATING RESTRAINT..,``

I am a Pakistani, and I am not sure what you mean by ``advocating restraint``. So I refer below to the pieces from the remainder of your post to see what you mean.

You continue: ``I ask you this... Imagine Bombs exploding in Clifton and Defence. Imagine 5000 of Pakistan`s best and brightest killed by Hindu fanatics of the Bajrang Dal in a matter of a couple of hours....Imagine the international media showing Hindus in