Bahr-e-Zulmaat

Sigalph,

It was not my attention to sully the good name of your ancestors. I don`t believe any of my posts have. As I have stated before, we all could learn something from them.

My analysis is based on the progressive contributions made by Noam Chomsky, Edward Said, Eqbal Ahmed, The Women in Black, Allan Nairin, Michael Parrenti, writers of the Nation, Gandhi,

Hanan Ashrawi, Amy Goodman, among others.

You assume that my position denies the existence of Jewish Arabs; not at all. However, if we are to follow this example, I assume that you will be vacating your abode to allow one of the Native American families this country displaced in one of its 300 broken treaties throughout the last 300 years? Not willing? Thought not...

Obviously there must be peaceful and democratic coexistence. Keep in mind that this democractic coexistance must be based on equal citizenry regardless of race, ethnicity, religious orientation, class and gender. Israelis must face this honestly. By the way, how are the Sephardic and Ethiopian Jewish citizenry faring in your blessed democratic state?

Sig, there are many Middle Easterners, South Asians, Africans, Latin Americans, and Anglos, for that matter, who want to develop egalitarian societies. They put their lives on the line everyday. Ken Sarawewa was one, if I remember. Do you remember him?

regards.

Banjaara/Twelve Head Sahib,

You are still trying to bait me into conversation, aren`t you? Despite the fact that two weeks ago, I clearly stated that I did not want to have any communications with you. Let me remind you of what I had said then and still maintain:

I am not interested in having a dialogue with you or any of your multiple personalities. Beyond these reminders, I will not respond to your posts because they become increasingly insulting and hostile, particularly to female Chowkwallahs and people who are not Muslim.

New Chowkwallahs, be warned of a Chowkwallah who has created several nicknames and uses them deceptively. The names are: Aamir, Studebaker, AeishA, Fatimah, Deepika, Bapu, Brad Cruise, Bijli, Banjaara, etc. This person does not follow basic interaction rules of decency on this website.

sigalph,

My response to your post is on the ``War..`` board.

Ever so waiting for your response...

(Your ancestors seem to be extraordinary people)

re glib

``Those three districts are firmly within India, last time I checked (although I am given to understand that the second one causes a certain amount of heartburn among Bangladeshi patriots on account of it being a Muslim majority district).``

Buddy, you are wrong. ALL of this West Bengal deal, not just Murshidabad, causes heartburn since all of it is ours:)I was hoping that when Saxenaji becomes Pradhanmantri, we could work something out. But don`t be so loud; these negotiations have to take place in discreet, you know.

re saminashah 86

Thank you for sullying my upstanding name on the other board too:)

You have given me the entire Arab League line on Israel so I am at a loss where to begin. Let me start by taking the word `native` you mentioned. Who is a native in the Holy Land? Only the Palestinians? Or also the descendants of those who were rooted out of there three thousand years ago?

Perhaps that`s where the fundamental difference of thought lies. For two generations Arabs and South Asians have taught their kids that Jews came from nowhere to take Palestinian land and kick the latter out. A more rational and accurate approach would have been to see the issue as two people trying to work out some arrangement to share a land to which both had some reasonable claims.

Before you jump and say `but it was the Jews who had no intention of sharing`, let me invite you to take a close, cool, and comprehensive look at the events of 1947-1949 when Israel ACCEPTED the partition plan and the Arabs REJECTED it. Had it not been for that stroke of supremacist mentality, there would have been a Palestine for the last fifty years. But they wanted it all and wanted to push the Jews to the sea.

Yes, Israel`s treatment of anti-state elements is quite harsh(as is India`s in Kashmir). It is not a perfect democracy. But you know, every detainee in Israel, even under state security laws, gets his day in open court and courts sometimes rule against the government. Have you ever heard anything like that in those glorious pluralist democracies like Syria, Arafat-land(ie Gaza Strip), Libya, Iraq?

In Israel the conditions of its Arab minority is economically unfortunate. Minorities in the East tend to suffer from that predicament everywhere. But you know, in Israel Isarelis can and do protest the mal-treatment of Palestinians openly. When was the last time you saw Saudis, Syrians, and Iranians hold a rally in their capitals to express solidarity with THEIR minorities(Oh, I forgot; most minorities have been run out of these pluralist ARab countries already)?

Israel is not perfect. But her imperfections will always be criticized by some of her own people.And that freedom is the beauty of it all that sets Israel apart from her neighbors.

Banjaara # 84

People from 24 Pargana,Murshidabad,Burdwan(Your

forefather`s estate)are still not fully accepted as

Bengalees.



Those three districts are firmly within India, last time I

checked (although I am given to understand that the

second one causes a certain amount of heartburn

among Bangladeshi patriots on account of it being a

Muslim majority district).

Or do you really mean ``descendants of Nawabs`` when

you say ``people?``

Considering that Nawab Siraj ud Dowla was not really

a Bengali, why would his descendants be considered

so? Was Mir Zafar`s descendant Iskander Mirza a

Bengali?

Incidentally, a few years ago another of Mir Zafar`s

descendant, a Col. Ayub Khan in Calcutta was in news.

He had switched from the Congress to the BJP.

I am not making this up, honest! :-) :-)

re bijli

`...&oversupply of lawers & doctors two of the forte of jewish(israelis) kids.`

My grandparents fought the Second World War. I find your remarks above reflective of anti-Semitism and beyond the pale of interaction. (Not to mention, statisticallt quite unsound).

re banjara # 84

``On your behalf,Your Highness,I shall advise Saminashah to approach the Burke Peerage School of Royal Manners to learn the basic adab and adaab before addressing Your Highness.``

See to it that you do. I am getting annoyed by this be-adbee.

``Now if you would come down off your high horse errr throne let me tell you something.People from

24 Pargana,Murshidabad,Burdwan(Your forefather`s

estate)are still not fully accepted as Bengalees.

If you dont believe me,ask Begum Shaista Ikramullah (mother of Princess Sarwat of Jordan).``

I know Princess Sarwat and was at her wedding; and two generations of my family have been personal physicians to the Suhrawardys(in case YOU din`t know, Begum Shaista Ikramullah was a Suhrawardy scion). Don`t sell coals to Newcastle pal.

``By the way Jaagirdari was abolished in 1948,so you are neither the scion of a ruling family nor a jaagirdar.It`s time you behaved like us commoners.``

I am not a scion of anything nor do I claim to be. Nonetheless, your insecurity discourages me from being a `commomner`, if that`s what you are. But it seems your lack of decorum is quite uncommon at Chowk.

In all seriousness, pal, I try not to make humour out of people`s ancesrtries. It is uncalled for and impolite. I hope you follow that basic rule of decency from now on too.

Re: Pankaj #83

According to Robert Clive`s own account, East India Company`s losses amounted to ``twenty-two killed and fifty wounded, and those chiefly blacks``. Losses to Siraj-ud-Daulah`s army amounted to about five hundred.

http://www.hillsdale.edu/dept/History/Documents/War/Abroad/1757-Plassey-Clive.htm

sigalph-my response to your last post is on the ``War, what is it good for`` post. Just to prepare you for it: meow.

An interesting view-point Rehan, especially like the way you begin the piece: different, poignant, a good job.

Regards,

Kiran

p.s: sorry, this is off topic: but any news about Agha Shahid Ali? How`s he doing?

An interesting view-point Rehan, especially like the way you begin the piece: different, poignant, a good job.

Regards,

Kiran

p.s: sorry, this is off topic: but any news about Agha Shahid Ali? How`s he doing?

sigalph235 # 76

``I need no lectures on colonialism. My ancestor was the first major Indian ruler to be martyred by the English colonialists a hundred years before the Mutiny of 1857. It was at a place you might have heard of : Plassey.Almost overnight we went from rulers to mere jaagirdars (or whatever it used to be called. We created Pakistan when Brahmin colonialism looked likely; we broke Pakistan when Punjabi colonialism was evident.``

Your Royal Highness ! These commoners know not that they are in the presence of Royalty and are

not supposed to speak unless spoken to.On your behalf,Your Highness,I shall advise Saminashah to approach the Burke Peerage School of Royal Manners

to learn the basic adab and adaab before addressing Your Highness.

Now if you would come down off your high horse errr throne let me tell you something.People from

24 Pargana,Murshidabad,Burdwan(Your forefather`s

estate)are still not fully accepted as Bengalees.

If you dont believe me,ask Begum Shaista Ikramullah (mother of Princess Sarwat of Jordan).

By the way Jaagirdari was abolished in 1948,so you

are neither the scion of a ruling family nor a

jaagirdar.It`s time you behaved like us commoners.

With best regards.

Sac

``If I were you I wouldn`t be broadcasting that fact for all and sundry. Siraj-ud-dollah`s 50000 men were defeated by Robert Clive`s 3000``

Actually most of the army that was loyal to Mir Zafar didn`t fight at all. Only 12000 out of 50,000 came out against English and even they fled before any serious fighting. In the final tally, English lost 17 men while Siraj`s army lost only a couple of hundred soldiers. Thus one can say there was hardly a war fought.

Reference : David Landes in `` The wealth and poverty of nations``.

re sigalph25 #76:

``My ancestor was the first major Indian ruler to be martyred by the English colonialists a hundred years before the Mutiny of 1857. It was at a place you might have heard of : Plassey.``

If I were you I wouldn`t be broadcasting that fact for all and sundry. Siraj-ud-dollah`s 50000 men were defeated by Robert Clive`s 3000. And contrary to the conspiracy theories there was a simple explanation for that ineptitude. The Bengali army failed to cover its gunpowder and ammo which was rendered useless by the heavy downpour. The British were obviously better preparaed. It counts as one of the most colossal mistakes in war committed by any leader at anytime in world history.

later

-sac

mas_mak # 61

You might try( www.submission.org/teenagers),

it may provide you with some of the answers.

Regards.