Bahr-e-Zulmaat

Benazir Bhutto makes a lot of sense in Slate at

http://slate.msn.com/code/ThisJustIn/ThisJustIn.asp?Show=9/21/2001&idMessage=8335

Ras

All the US racism talk is disgusting and incredibly hypocritical on the part of Pakistanis who can barely get along with each other. All I have to say is ``save it!`` Quit your f * * *ing whining. The facts are these:

1. If this had happened in Pakistan the entire country would be butchering the other half of the country that may have been hinted at being responsible. In the US, attacks on muslims and Hindus/Sikhs/Christians who get confused with them are not widespread and can be categorized as ``incidents.``

2. Pakistanis themselves are venomously racists. Most have never met a Jew yet would slit one`s throat upon command. Disgusting. I recently heard a group of Pakistanis at a restaurant go on and on about the horrible Zionists and how they should all be removed from the face of the earth. I had to leave.

sigalph235 #66,

You were making sense till you got to the part of `Palestinian` rights. It`s delusional to think that they have more rights now than they did before. The right to one`s own land is the biggest right of all. And if that`s taken away, how can you claim that they have better rights now?

By the way, I didn`t justify the recent terrorist attacks, like you have blamed me to. There is no justification for the murder of innocents. And I firmly stand with the US to punish the perpetrators.

I`ve just pointed out the problems in foreign policy that might have caused this hatred. The rest of the country is thinking about it too.

Ras Siddiqui: ``Benazir Bhutto makes a lot of sense in Slate...``

Trouble is, twice she was given a chance to walk the talk, and did not. Two chances at guiding the destiny of a nation is one chance more than any person deserves. I think she is clever as well as articulate - but lacks the character that comes from having some clear values and ability to tell right from wrong. That is why she is unable to walk her sweet talk. Of course, other aspirants - NS possibly, mullahs - cant talk either. So: Let Musharaff run for President and I will vote for him.

sigalph235 #66

Its been pointed out in many articles in the recent days, including in that hated Jewish rag the NYT, that the US `s current allies in the Muslim world including Egypt Jordan and Saudi Arabia are unashamedly authoritarian regimes who donot exactly celebrate pluralism.

There is hardly a democracy in the Muslim world from Algeria to Indonesia and that is cited as a major reason for radical Islam to be considered as a legitimate outlet for the disenfranchised. Its been pointed out (by the same wicked Jewish media) that Bush`s (and previous American leaders`) rhetoric about leading world alliances for `liberties` and `freedom` cannot be expected to be taken seriously in a large part of the Muslim world for this reason. Take Zia Ul Haq being called ``a friend`` of freedom or demcracy or something for instance. Reagan even called the Taliban`s predecessor warlords ``the Afghan equivalent of US founding fathers``. And lets see how long and to what extent the US condones a military dictatorship in Pakistan. Americans seem to take their own rhetoric so seriously, it blinds them to realities which hit back as bin Laden has.

I think the Americans should stick to ``combating and wiping out terrorism`` as the tie that binds all civilised democratic and undemocratic nations. The Americans should lead the effort to smoke out the guilty and the fence-sitters but bottle up the hot air about `liberties` and `values of freedom and democracy` for now.

viyas vipaul, sigalph

I have generally refrained from some of the hatefests indulged in by some of the excitable boys and girls here, but I do find your last posts intellectually and spiritually questionable.

There are many Pakistanis as well as other South Asians, who support the existence of Israel and not it`s current governments regime viz Palestinians. Unless you can talk to me about land, water, self government, and democratic engagement you are in effect, defending a colonialist construct. Really, I thought this matter transcended religious biases-not knowing this should send you back to political kindergarten.

I really resent that a basic issue that has been a matter for many of human rights concerns (as many other concerns, for the record; Chiapas, Indonesia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Rwanda)is being ridiculed in this manner. But of course, ours is the luxury to spew, rather than survive...

Zafar Bhai,

Check in, yaar...we are all suffering in our compulsive post sending and I would appreciate a spare, well reasoned comment...

saminashah

Many Indians Bangladeshis of Hindu, Muslim and other religion sympathize with Palestinians. Until recently there was a lot of support for Palestinian point of view. Even now there is but now there is grand effort by some Islamists to connect Palestinian problem with problem of some myth of global oppresion of muslims by nonmuslims. In this situation every nonmuslims is out oppressing muslims in every nonmuslim country (dont ask them what happens in muslim countries). In this new game the real problem of Palestine gets cheapened. I dont think Arafat himself sees Palestinian problem of land as part of some global myth. By promoting this global myth people are not helping Palestinian rights.

re saminashah

``Unless you can talk to me about land, water, self government, and democratic engagement you are in effect, defending a colonialist construct.``

I need no lectures on colonialism. My ancestor was the first major Indian ruler to be martyred by the English colonialists a hundred years before the Mutiny of 1857. It was at a place you might have heard of : Plassey.Almost overnight we went from rulers to mere jaagirdars (or whatever it used to be called. We created Pakistan when Brahmin colonialism looked likely; we broke Pakistan when Punjabi colonialism was evident.

I will gladly talk about self-government and democracy. Name me one single Arab country where a Palestinian`s has the right to a meaningful vote in a representative democracy? There isn`t any. Because the only country that allows Palstinians to exercise a half-way meaningful franchise is the State of Israel.

Self-government? Did the Palestinians ever have self-government until the 1993 accords with ISrael? No. Because they were and are inacapable of that. Don`t believe me, just take a look at the motley fiefdom being run by Arafat in Gaza where there are sixteen security agencies and critics are locked up without charges while `traitors` are simply `eliminated`.

Colonialist construct? Who are the colonizers in Israel? The Children of Israel who were original inhabitants four thousand years ago? Or the Arabs who were inhabitants from that time as well? If one is a colonizer so is the other because both come from the seed of Abraham. Just as Jewish settlement in Israel is mixed with European blood so is Arab settlement there mixed with Turkish blood.

WHich leads us to the biggest historical caveat of all. Ben Gurion offered Arabs of Israel full citizenship in the new (and old) state. The ARabs reacted by wanting to throw the Jews to the sea and create an all-Arab state. Some democratic engaement all right!

RE: Zahra

``Reading your thoughts, I do not think you understood the context. I was quoting the above after listening to the repeated complaints/whining of the bubbly lady at a local mall. And I was saying that Insaan Kissee Haal Main Khush Naheen Rehtaa. I told her to be thankful for what she had than whining unnecessarily. People, around are going through worse issues than hers.``

If that`s the point you were trying to make with the quote, I agree completely.

Stuka #27

half jewish and half sioux….that’s a unique amalgam…so if I’m not being too nosy, what are your religious beliefs? I mean judiasm is a monotheistic religion whereas siouxs believe in all sorts of gods (rain, et al).

i’ve read somewhere that in judaism there is no concept of hell ….can you elaborate?

Nasah# 39:

“It is because the whole community is caught -- in this big DELUSION -- that ALL social, economic, political and administrative LAWS were ALREADY LAID out in the holy Koran 1400 years ago -– for all times to come – and as the FINAL WORD of God they can never be changed or reformed.

This is our biggest misfortune.

It assumes as if God after speaking HIS WORDS to Mohammed in Koran became speechless -- never SPOKE a WORD afterwards – never CREATED anything –since then.

In essence it claims that God’s creativity and creations CEASED after Koran – that is not only blasphemy of the first order – it is a thinking of monumental stupidity – a total bankruptcy of reason and intellect.”

….very well said…

mass_mak #61

i suggest you go to a very nice website called understandingislam.com

http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=16160&group=webcast

Deepak Chopra on the horror usa attacks

by markus 11:52am Thu Sep 13 `01 (Modified on 10:03pm Thu Sep 13 `01)



And I asked myself, Why didn`t I feel this way last week?

Why didn`t my body go stiff during the bombing of Iraq or Bosnia?

The Deeper Wound

As fate would have it, I was leaving New York on a jet flight that took

off 45 minutes before the unthinkable happened. By the time we landed in

Detroit, chaos had broken out. When I grasped the fact that American

security had broken down so tragically, I couldn`t respond at first. My

wife and son were also in the air on separate flights, one to Los

Angeles, one to San Diego. My body went absolutely rigid with fear. All

I could think about was their safety, and it took several hours before I

found out that their flights had been diverted and both were safe.

Strangely, when the good news came, my body still felt that it had been

hit by a truck. Of its own accord it seemed to feel a far greater

trauma that reached out to the thousands who would not survive and the

tens of thousands who would survive only to live through months and

years of hell. And I asked myself, Why didn`t I feel this way last week?

Why didn`t my body go stiff during the bombing of Iraq or Bosnia? Around

the world my

horror and worry are experienced every day. Mothers weep over horrendous

loss, civilians are bombed mercilessly, refugees are ripped from any

sense of home or homeland. Why did I not feel their anguish enough to

call a halt to it? As we hear the calls for tightened American security

and a fierce military response to terrorism, it is obvious that none of

us has any answers. However, we feel compelled to ask some questions.

Everything has a cause, so we have to ask, What was the root cause of

this evil? We must find out not superficially but at the deepest level.

There is no doubt that such evil is alive all around the world and is

even celebrated. Does this evil grow from the suffering and anguish felt

by people we don`t know and therefore ignore? Have they lived in this

condition for a long time? One assumes that whoever did this attack

feels implacable hatred for America. Why were we selected to be the

focus of suffering around the world? All this hatred and anguish seems

to have religion at its basis. Isn`t something terribly wrong when

jihads and wars develop in the name of God? Isn`t God invoked with

hatred in Ireland, Sri Lanka, India, Pakistan, Israel, Palestine, and

even among the intolerant sects of America? Can any military response

make the slightest difference in the underlying cause? Is there not a

deep wound at the heart of humanity? If there is a deep wound, doesn`t

it affect everyone? When generations of suffering respond with bombs,

suicidal attacks, and biological warfare, who first developed these

weapons? Who sells them? Who gave birth to the satanic technologies now

being turned against us? If all of us are wounded, will revenge work?

Will punishment in any form toward anyone solve the wound or aggravate

it? Will an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and limb for a limb,

leave us all blind, toothless and crippled? Tribal warfare has been

going on for two thousand years and has now been magnified globally. Can

tribal warfare be brought to an end? Is patriotism and nationalism even

relevant anymore, or is this another form of tribalism? What are you and

I as persons going to do about what is happening? Can we afford to let

the deeper wound fester any longer? Everyone is calling this an attack

on America, but is it not a rift in our collective soul?

Isn`t this an

attack on civilization from without that is

also from within?When we have secured our safety once more and cared for

the wounded, after the period of shock and mourning is over, it will be

time for soul searching. I only hope that these questions are confronted

with the deepest spiritual intent. None of us will feel safe again

behind the shield of military might and stockpiled arsenals. There can

be no safety until the root cause is faced. In this moment of shock I

don`t think anyone of us has the answers. It is imperative that we pray

and offer solace and help to each other. But if you and I are having a

single thought of violence or hatred against anyone in the world at this

moment, we are contributing to the wounding of the world.

Love,

Deepak

A Columbine student who experienced her school massacre wrote this:

``The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller buildings, but shorter tempers; wider freeways, but narrower viewpoints; we spend more, but have less; we buy more, but enjoy it less.

We have bigger houses and smaller families; more conveniences, but less time; we have more degrees, but less sense; more knowledge but less judgement; more experts, but more problems; more medicine, but less wellness.

We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values.

We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often.

We`ve learned how to make a living, but not a life; we`ve added years to life, not life to years.

We`ve been all the way to the moon and back, but have trouble crossing the street to meet the new neighbour.

We`ve conquered outer space, but not inner space; we`ve cleaned up the air, but polluted the soul; we`ve split the atom, but not our prejudice.

We have higher incomes, but lower morals; we`ve become long on quantity, but short on quality.

These are the times of tall men, and short character; steep profits, and shallow relationships.

These are the times of world peace, but domestic warfare; more leisure,but less fun; more kinds of food, but less nutrition.

These are days of two incomes, but more divorce; of fancier houses, but broken homes.

It is a time when there is much in the show window and nothing in the stockroom; a time when technology can bring this letter to you, and a time when you can choose either to make a

difference or just hit delete.

Go the concept of community.

Listen to music, read some poetry, hug your kids and make love to your partner.

life not society and progress.

mas_mak # 61

You might try( www.submission.org/teenagers),

it may provide you with some of the answers.

Regards.

re sigalph25 #76:

``My ancestor was the first major Indian ruler to be martyred by the English colonialists a hundred years before the Mutiny of 1857. It was at a place you might have heard of : Plassey.``

If I were you I wouldn`t be broadcasting that fact for all and sundry. Siraj-ud-dollah`s 50000 men were defeated by Robert Clive`s 3000. And contrary to the conspiracy theories there was a simple explanation for that ineptitude. The Bengali army failed to cover its gunpowder and ammo which was rendered useless by the heavy downpour. The British were obviously better preparaed. It counts as one of the most colossal mistakes in war committed by any leader at anytime in world history.

later

-sac

Sac

``If I were you I wouldn`t be broadcasting that fact for all and sundry. Siraj-ud-dollah`s 50000 men were defeated by Robert Clive`s 3000``

Actually most of the army that was loyal to Mir Zafar didn`t fight at all. Only 12000 out of 50,000 came out against English and even they fled before any serious fighting. In the final tally, English lost 17 men while Siraj`s army lost only a couple of hundred soldiers. Thus one can say there was hardly a war fought.

Reference : David Landes in `` The wealth and poverty of nations``.