Explaining it to an American Friend

Zafar Bhai,

Agreed with your post re: globalization. I would like to clarify that the global progressive movements that are wary of the unchecked manifestation of globalization for some very good reasons, and some happen to echo the fundos`.

Sad that a mosque was burned down-unfortunately you will be told by some Chowkies to stop whining-but I hope that everyone is okay in the land of kangaroo b-b-que :(

No recipes for biriyani! I actually haven`t learned (cough) biriyani. I know several pilaus. But, it might be better to ask someone else...Madhur Jaffrey is a fave of mine.

Mr.S is fine and a little quiet, thanks for asking. He`s a peacemonger as I am. Hope you and your family are well.

regards!

re. #202 harimau:

harimau, you seemed to have misunderstood my question or deliberated avoided answering it. I know Catholocism has an exteremly chequered, shameful past, and one could say that it was a religion fostering hate. however, Catholicism is quite different from Christianity in it`s pristine form (--And despite your probable cynicism with the idea of `pristine Christianity`, it has and continues to live and inspire people to the highest human ideals.)

Now, assuming we CAN treat the central message of Christianity as a somewhat unchanged, eternal nature, could you answer the question posed to you in the first place-- would you consider Christianity -- not Catholicism! -- a relgion of Hate living in the times of the Crusades and the earlier Dark Ages?

Can you relate your answer/thinking to Islam in any way?

Pakistan`s Christians Fear Militant Reprisals

Asia: Members of tiny community believe they will become targets in expected war between U.S. and neighboring Taliban regime.



By JOHN DANISZEWSKI, Times Staff Writer

QUETTA, Pakistan -- At Holy Rosary Roman Catholic Church here, the priest prays in Urdu, parishioners sit cross-legged on the floor, and some of the faithful wander past the altar in the middle of Mass to set flowers at the foot of a statue of Mary.

Isolated in a corner of the Islamic world where many visitors are surprised to find any non-Muslims, Pakistan`s tiny Christian community has managed to survive in the shadow of neighboring Afghanistan`s Taliban regime. This is despite a rise in Islamic militancy and recent attacks from extremists who consider Christianity heresy and black magic.

But this perilous existence shows signs of worsening. In recent days, Pakistan`s Christians have been asking for protection from the government because of the expected war between the United States and the Taliban.

Holy Rosary parishioners believe that enraged Islamic militants and Afghan refugees in Pakistan will take out their fury at the United States on the nearest convenient target--their Christian neighbors. Says Father Maxie, the parish priest: ``Our people are living in fear.``

Worshipers were in a nervous frame of mind Sunday, counseling one another to keep low profiles and avoid any public discussion of politics or religion. Already, some Christian families reported, they have been told they will be slaughtered if U.S. bombs start falling.

Shafeek Masih, a 25-year-old laborer in the outlying village of Nawan Kili, heeded the warnings and moved his mother and sister to what he considers a safer place near the church, an area with a high concentration of Christians.

Tensions in his neighborhood of Nawan Kili, where there are about 500 Catholic families, increased immediately after the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, he recounted in an interview conducted in a cramped apartment across from the church. About 15 men piled into one room to hear the discussion.

``We started to have problems already on Sept. 11,`` he said. ``When my mother and sister came out of our house, there were young students there who were throwing rocks at them and using words of abuse. . . . They said, `If America attacks Afghanistan, we will kill you.` ``

Shafeek--the last name, Masih, means simply ``Christian`` and is used by almost all the members of Pakistan`s Christian community--said the house is surrounded by a militant Muslim area, so it would be difficult for the family to escape an angry mob. That is why he moved part of his family.

``We are Pakistani,`` he explained. ``But they think that we are Christian, and Americans are also Christian, so that is why they will do it. I think it is safer here.``

Another member of the community, Saleen Masih, 34, agreed.

``At the moment, things are under control, but if America is going to attack, the situation will quickly change,`` he said.

Patrick Saint Masih, chairman of Quetta`s Asian United Christian Assn., said he is desperate that the wider world know of his community`s vulnerability before America launches any attack.

``Many Christians are residing among the Muslims, and especially in Quetta these Pushtuns from Afghanistan are residing with us,`` he said, referring to the ethnic group that is the main base for the Taliban movement.

He said the Christians should get financial aid from America so they can build a ``Christian colony``--a self-imposed ghetto where, the retired government servant imagines, they could live securely behind a cordon of police or soldiers.

``Our main problem is that we are all very poor,`` he lamented.

There are only about 25,000 Christians in this city of 1.2 million, and in all of Pakistan--a country of 140 million--less than 2 million people are Christian. They are mostly Catholic, Episcopalian and Pentecostal.

In 1998, when the United States launched cruise missiles into Afghanistan after the terrorist bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, Christians were targeted in riots that swept through much of Pakistan.

A series of religiously inspired assaults in recent years has included a 1998 bombing in St. Patrick`s Cathedral in Karachi and the massacre in 1999 of a family of nine, hacked to death in Nowshera, 25 miles from the northern city of Peshawar. According to published accounts, an anti-Christian slogan was scrawled in blood on the walls of the house where the family was killed.

Patrick Masih said he would expect even worse attacks this time.

``The Taliban use the words of Islam,`` he said. ``That is why we are afraid they will try to turn this into a war over religion.``

Although Christianity claims roots in the Asian subcontinent dating to the time of St. Thomas, the doubting apostle, today`s Pakistani Christians trace their history more directly to missionaries who arrived when the British conquered India. Many of the Christians of Quetta are descendants of Punjabi soldiers who fought for the British.

As a result, the Holy Rosary parish is located in a part of Quetta known as the ``cantonment,`` a neighborhood reserved for the military since the days of the British Empire. It sits on Ordnance Road, a street controlled by an army checkpoint at one end where a soldier in a sandbagged foxhole points a rifle at passing cars.

That military presence affords Christians a measure of security around the church, but those living in outlying neighborhoods feel much more afraid, the parishioners said.

At their Sunday service, men in drab tunics and baggy pants sat on the floor on one side of the aisle. Women, their long black hair covered by brightly shimmering scarves, sat on the other. Shoes are taken off at the doors, and the worshipers singing their lilting hymns in Urdu to the accompaniment of a traditional Pakistani drum were mostly barefoot.

Patrick Saint Masih said he hoped that the United States will be careful.

``I think war should be made against terrorism by thinking, not by attacking,`` he said. ``So innocent human beings could be saved.``

Re: PM

``In any case, my point to Gowdy and harimau was that if you are going to judge a system ONLY on the basis of the worst actions of its adherents, then they would have to hold that Christianity (as a religion) was a religion of Hate and Intolerance, living in the Middle Ages.``

That`s the key word: Middle Ages. Christianity left barbarism behind in the Middle Ages. It was the PAST. Gone. No more.

``The truth is that what was practised then was as far from Christ`s message (or Paul`s) as can be imagined.``

Again, the key word is ``was`` ... not anymore. All I am asking is why more Muslims don`t want to take a crack at fixing whatever it is that causes so many of Islam`s followers to use it as a crutch for terrorism?

It`s like a father standing by while his 6-year-old steals a candy bar from the store and saying, ``I didn`t do it, he did it. Don`t blame the whole Smith family for it.`` Well whose job is it to teach the kid not to steal???

Can some sane Pakistanis tell this idiot YLH to shut up.

Now he is again distinguishing between Jehad and terrorism. When will Pakistanis ever learn?

anNy

``Ref: my interaction with saxena on the bombing board, u called me a whiner (which i must tell you im really not)

``

C`mon ``whiner`` doesn`t qualify the list of abuses. anNyway that was a general comment not meant for you. Okay, lemme tell you. I strongly believe that there are three kinds of people, whiners, doers, watchers. Out of these I am indifferent towards watchers but I have a dislike for whiners. It is my belief that people themselves are responsible for their situation. You ask some pathetic loser and he will rattle off 100 reasons why he failed but not a single how could he have succeeded. Actually if people are suffereing and are in the sorry state, most of the blame lies with them and not with the world.

PS You are of course not a whiner but a doer :-). Else you wouldn`t be sitting there and writing this post to me.

MaheshG #227 was directed to Scout.

Zafar:

``

To further get her point across she should wear a bathing suit in Pakistan’s national colours with flashing disco lights (green and white, naturally). Also hijab, of course. Each television appearance should be preceded by a short “get to know you” type segment featuring Maliha at home preparing dinner, so that the audience can identify with her as “real people” (jee haan, like they did with Nancy Reagan). To avoid fruitless [!] speculation let me specify that she’ll be chopping bhindi.``

I have much to learn O Great Master of Unmatched Wit and Cutting Sarcasm. I stand humbled, and in awe of a Woodstockian education.

There is a major difference between the Christian crusade and Islamic jehad... if we are talking about the ideal sense of the word, not perversions that is.

St Augustine in the 5th Century gave us the distinction .... in other terms:

Holy War: A war fought for the establishment of religion, and the annihilation of all forces opposed to the Word of God.

Just War: A war fought against oppression and avarice, a war fought only untill the objectives are met... in other words : Bellum Justum.

Islamic concept of Jehad was always a Bellum Justum, or a Just war, and not a holy war... in the St Augustine terms ofcourse... what bin Laden is doing is a perversion indeed of the concept of Holy war, and atleast Islamically, cannot be called Jehad.

Ref PM #: 202

[Question for harimau and Gowardhan,

Would you be able to suggest that Christianity was NOT a religion of Peace, living in the thirteenth century?]

Any time priests themselves participate in the killing of infidels, or approve it with religious quotes, I have no problem declaring that religion to be bloodthirsty and not peaceful.

Christianity, specifically Catholicism, that actually conducted the Inquisition not only in Europe but also in Central and South America and in Goa is a bolldthirsty religion.

It is the British who being Anglicans couldn`t stand the Catholics that prevented Christian priests from doing the same in India.

After all, it is difficult to ban sati but approve in the same breath the burning at the stake of infidels.

It is the Portuguese who seized the Patriarch of Kerala`s Mar Thoma Church at sea and burnt him at the stake as a heretic. And the Mar Thoma Church has been in existence longer than the Portuguese have been Christians.

[I understand Islam is more problematic, what with words in the inerrant book calling for the death of unbelievers, but there are other words that prohibit the spilling of any innocent blood.]

So, how about those in the WTC towers? What crimes were they guilty of?

I know. Muslims are being persecuted in Palestine, Chechnya, Kosovo, Bosnia, Kashmir and the Philippines.

But not in Kurdistan or Xinjiang.

Yaaaawn!

Ref PM #: 202

[Question for harimau and Gowardhan,

Would you be able to suggest that Christianity was NOT a religion of Peace, living in the thirteenth century?]

Any time priests themselves participate in the killing of infidels, or approve it with religious quotes, I have no problem declaring that religion to be bloodthirsty and not peaceful.

Christianity, specifically Catholicism, that actually conducted the Inquisition not only in Europe but also in Central and South America and in Goa is a bolldthirsty religion.

It is the British who being Anglicans couldn`t stand the Catholics that prevented Christian priests from doing the same in India.

After all, it is difficult to ban sati but approve in the same breath the burning at the stake of infidels.

[I understand Islam is more problematic, what with words in the inerrant book calling for the death of unbelievers, but there are other words that prohibit the spilling of any innocent blood.]

So, how about those in the WTC towers? What crimes were they guilty of?

I know. Muslims are being persecuted in Palestine, Chechnya, Kosovo, Bosnia, Kashmir and the Philippines.

But not in Kurdistan or Xinjiand.

Yaaaawn!

Yesterday, at the prayers for America held at the Yankee stadium, one could not help but observe the absence of a religious representation from significantly large Islamic Arabic community in NY metro area. Islam was represented, but by followers in the USA, who are African Americans and not Arab Americans. I am not sure if this is due to fear of retaliation from the Islamic hard liners or their deep down hatred for America, but Asian Islam by and large failed to stand up and act on the words they have been preaching since last two weeks.

Christian Terrorist? Jewish Terrorist? Hindu Terrorist? Why then malign Islam by equating it with terrorism? maybe a change is coming:

``Reporters asked to handle `Islamic` jargon with care

By Larry Witham

THE WASHINGTON TIMES

BOSTON — An organization of religion news reporters yesterday suggested that reporters avoid the term ``Islamic terrorist`` or similar labels as Muslims and their beliefs receive greater scrutiny.

The Religion Newswriters Association said it was ``troubled`` by the frequent use of the term in the days after the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington.

The resolution, adopted by a majority vote at the group`s annual meeting, also rejected ``similar phrases that associate an entire religion with the action of a few.``

The statement will be sent to the 240 members of the RNA and other news organizations. It will be released today by the Associated Press.

``Terrorist acts are committed by individuals and groups for reasons that often involve a complex mix of cultural, religious, nationalist, economic and psychological motives,`` the resolution said.

Hence, reporting in the wake of the attacks should ``avoid stereotypes [and] be aware of the complexity of religious traditions and to use care in attempting to describe the motives of terrorists,`` the resolution said.

However, some news editors note that terrorist groups often use the term ``Islamic`` in the names of their organizations, particularly when they claim credit for an attack on civilians or a suicide bombing.

The news writers` resolution was drafted Thursday, the day that President Bush, in his address to Congress, described Islam as a religion of peace. Mr. Bush made correct distinctions in his attempt to explain the Islamic faith, but not in his description of terrorism as an ``ideology,`` Ingrid Mattson, vice president of the Islamic Society of North America, said during a panel meeting of religious experts at the news writers` gathering.

``Terrorism is a tactic, a strategy,`` she said. ``It`s not an ideology.``

She agrees with those who say that a precise alternative to ``Islamic terrorist`` was not easy when Islamic terrorists themselves use this term, and when news organizations need simple terms for headlines and stories.

Citing a CNN program titled ``Behind the Veil,`` Ms. Mattson said that such ``exotic orientalism`` about Islam pervades Western coverage of Muslim issues, and she recommends Americanizing Muslim terms in the United States.

American Muslims and the U.S. media should use the term God instead of Allah, she said, and the ``hijab`` that Muslim women wear over their head should be called a scarf.

As with many other Muslim scholars, Ms. Mattson said the word ``jihad`` refers only to a defensive war — so terrorists and radical groups misuse the word when they call for a ``holy war`` against the United States or Israel.

When Mr. Bush called for a defense of America on Thursday night, she said, he ``was basically calling for a `jihad,` which is a justified war.``

In recent years, Muslim policy groups and political organizations in the United States have asked for more accurate usage of Arabic terms and recognition of Islamic holy days.

The groups persuaded news organizations, including The Washington Times and the Associated Press, to use the spelling ``Muslim`` instead of ``Moslem,`` as the latter offends some followers of the faith. Some Muslims prefer ``Quran`` instead of ``Koran`` for the Muslim holy book, but this usage has not been widely adopted.``

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Am I correct in thinking that our discussion is over.