Explaining it to an American Friend

Re: anNy

``and you rsaxena, need to grow up really bad``

whateva

Moderates poised as Pakistan plans coup to unseat Taliban leader

By Jonathan Steele in Tehran and Christopher Kremmer in Islamabad

Pakistan is trying to organise a coup in Afghanistan that will either kill or depose the Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar and allow moderates to take control of the movement, according to highly placed sources in Iran.

The moderates would then be expected to join talks with the Northern Alliance on forming a coalition government for Afghanistan.

After years of civil war and the increasingly fanatical leadership of the reclusive Muslim cleric Mullah Omar, this would return the country to a milder form of Islam in place of the Taliban`s fierce repression and the exclusion of women from work and girls from school.

Iran and Pakistan are key players in the Afghan crisis. Both have massive borders with Afghanistan, and fear the instability that could be triggered by United States military action.

The prospect of imminent US military strikes on Afghanistan has increased sharply in the past 24 hours following the admission by the Taliban regime that it knows the location of the chief US terror suspect Osama bin Laden and was protecting him.

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In Turkey, NTV television said yesterday that authorities had detained a man said to be a brother of bin Laden. However, a spokesman for the Interior Minister later said the man, Abdullah bin Laden, was not a brother but may be a relative. Police continued to question him last night.

In Islamabad, senior diplomatic sources said Pakistan risked a complete loss of influence in Afghanistan unless it withdrew support from hardline elements in the ruling Taliban militia.

The warning came as Pakistan`s military ruler, General Pervez Musharraf, conceded that hopes for a compromise in the dispute over bin Laden were very dim.

Officials in Islamabad were unavailable for comment on the reports of a Pakistan-backed coup plan, but diplomats said the reports made sense given the threat posed to Pakistan`s stability by the Taliban`s instransigence.

Exiled Afghan political leaders are working to hold a loya jirga (grand council) at which the country`s ethnic and religious factions can agree on a government of national unity under former King Zahir Shah.

``The Taliban do not represent the people of Afghanistan,`` one leader involved in the process, Mr Hamid Karzai, said. ``We want total change. The government system established by the Taliban must be abolished.``

Pakistan and Iran are key players in the future of Afghanistan because Pakistan is the only country that still has diplomatic relations with the Taliban, while the Northern Alliance is represented by Iran and Russia, its largest arms suppliers.

Pakistan has maintained this link to maintain contact with the regime. This has Washington`s approval.

In a sign of growing panic among their leaders in the face of likely US-led attacks, the Taliban recently made a secret plea to Iran for military aid.

Although Iran gives arms to the Northern Alliance, the Taliban hoped that as a leading champion of Islam, Iran would not allow a fellow Islamic state to be defeated by the US. ``We rejected the request out of hand,`` a source said.

Iran believes the Afghan crisis has strengthened its chances of ending the isolation that the US and, to a lesser extent, Europe have imposed on it for 20 years.

Capitalising on new US interest, Afghanistan`s opposition Northern Alliance is seeking $US50 million ($102 million) a month in aid from the Bush Administration, as well as help in obtaining a wide range of military equipment that includes tanks, helicopters, armoured personnel carriers and artillery, according to the Washington Post.

In exchange, say these representatives - who are soliciting support in Washington - the Northern Alliance is offering joint military operations with its 15,000 fighters to track Osama bin Laden and topple the ruling Taliban.

``What we are saying is deploy [US] special forces in co-ordination with our forces on the ground, make fast moves, secure certain spots and then expand our territories,`` the alliance`s new Washington rep-

resentative, Haron Amin, said.

Combined with air support, he said, ``that would get the job done``. Without the alliance, the US had no chance of finding bin Laden.

The Guardian

http://www.smh.com.au/news/0110/02/world/world1.html

To semipreciousme, anNy, roohi and Aamir (I was in two minds on whether to include Aamir with the angels on account of his multiple nicks, but he did write a nice post and we can always use those on chowk): Thanks for the good wishes and kind words. There are some idiots on chowk, and a number good people too as anNy points out. In fact more good people than idiots, I think, and it just seems that there are more idiots.

PS: anNY: post #130 is a fake, although no doubt the real mrs.ahmed would agree with it. She thinks, e.g., that I spend too much time ``chatting with strangers on chowk``. Fortunately, one can have a perfectly happy marriage without requiring that both individuals be perfect human beings, or agree fully on everything.

sattar2 #114 You write ``I have asked repeatedly, and you have continuously side-stepped this question … does your acceptance of Jesus as a prophet amount to hero-worship? Does Quranic injunction of accepting prophets amount to hero-worship?``

The answer to both is no. It should be clear to anyone what one means by hero-worship vs. prophet, and that the two need not be the same. However, I hope you now have the anwser to your specific question.

As should be amply clear by now, what I am objecting to is this fascination with the messenger rather than with the message, with prominent men rather than with values and principles, with political personalities rather than with the constitution. I am objecting to this because these are all symptoms of the same weakness in character and are very real problems underlying Pakistani society.

You have obviously interpreted my point on hero-worship as being something directed towards how Ahmedis look up to Mirza Ahmed. The fact is that I honestly wasnt trying to single out Ahmedis in my earlier post, and I included sunnis and shias in the same criticism. HOWEVER, now that I think about it, I must say I dont have a clue on the message delivered by Mirza Ahmed and how it differs from that delivered by the prophet Muhammed. The main focus of your discussion has been on providing a basis for establishing Mirza Ahmed as a prophet. You have, in the 10-15 posts I have read from you on chowk over the past several months, NOT ONCE referred to any difference in concept or philosophy or values that Ahmedis are enjoined to subscribe to and to which other muslims are not. I can only conclude, NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT, that your focus too is on personalities and not on concept. Please prove me wrong.

binifer,

congratulations, make sure you wear the pants in the family. :)

anNy #353,

these pathetic idiots won`t listen to you. trust me, i`ve tried numerous times. we can just feel sorry for the mothers who bore them.

Binifer #

Congratulations ! who is the lucky guy ? a huge hug and best wishes on this happy occassion. anNY will you do dandee dance on binifer`s mehendi ?

love,

sa:)

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why thank you ali...very nice...here im lecturing stuka teeeling him not to be budtameez towards your women folk and you very nicely come back and double the insult..dont any of you UNDERSTAND? dont involve the ladies..is it so hard to understand..? both of you are idiots and that too bad saleeqa manhoos idiots...swear at each other if you want to..god knows you enjoy it..but if i see you saying anything derogatory about his or saxena or anybody elses mum or womenfolk i swear i will catch hold of your parents numbers from somewhere and direct them to this little speech you just made...im not being cute here...do it one more time and i`ll get you into so jch trouble you wont know what hit you

and you rsaxena, need to grow up really bad

Urstruly #118 you write: ``Dear Mr. Ahmed, guide and philosopher to myself and other lost souls on chowk: First time in your life, you have asked the right question.`` Second time actually. First was when I got married (this is my practice for an upcoming anniversary).

sattar2 #97 On hero worship: I believe I have already made my point clear in my earlier post below where I wrote ``The focus of the Quran is clearly on Allah, his creation, man`s responsibilities and so on. Prophet Muhammed is mentioned in terms of circumscribing his role to that of a ``warner``. The focus of many muslims - sunnis, shias, ahmedis - is on man, not on Allah. It is this shift in focus that amounts to hero-worship.`` You claim that I have am merely presenting baseless opinions or am joking when the above cutandpaste is neither baseless nor a joke - indeed it calls for studying the Quran with a clear mind and honestly drawing conclusions on what the basic thrust of the message is: Rather than simply going round and round on the same issue with me, I suggest you review the Quran with a view to seeing overall how many references there are to Allah, his creation, man`s responsibilities vs. towards Prophet Muhammed. It is indeed a sign of the greatness of the Prophet Muhammed and an indication of his honesty that he did not change the message delivered to him to exalt himself. It is the lowness of today`s muslims that they ignore the message delivered to them to exalt a human being. If the Prophet Muhammed was alive today, I have no doubt that he would be deeply saddened at the depths to which the muslims have fallen, and to the superstitious ways of the masses (who pray to men in graves to intervene with God on their behalf, and who refer to prophets as if they were demi-gods) and the evil ways of those who claim to be closer to God than ordinary people (these are the people the Quran specifically refers to as hypocrites and condemns in the strongest of terms) or (to take the worst cases) those heartless individuals who kill innocent people in mosques and churches and places of work in the name of religion.

Again, I am not saying that by holding different views than the one presented above you become a non-muslim or anything - you are free to hold your interpretations, but please do not keep trying to make me change mine when you have presented nothing convincing so far other than a definition of the term ``seal`` that I find is quite forced. I have iterated and reiterated (above) the basis on which I have formed my opinions.

I think at this stage we should just agree to disagree, and end this discussion. You have shown me no disrespect I agree, nor have I shown you any disrespect I hope you will agree. In case you felt hurt by anything I said (even jokingly) you have my regrets.

binifer,

congratulations, make sure you wear the pants in the family. :)

anNy #353,

these pathetic idiots won`t listen to you. trust me, i`ve tried numerous times. we can just feel sorry for the mothers who bore them.

Binifer #

Congratulations ! who is the lucky guy ? a huge hug and best wishes on this happy occassion. anNY will you do dandee dance on binifer`s mehendi ?

love,

sa:)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

why thank you ali...very nice...here im lecturing stuka teeeling him not to be budtameez towards your women folk and you very nicely come back and double the insult..dont any of you UNDERSTAND? dont involve the ladies..is it so hard to understand..? both of you are idiots and that too bad saleeqa manhoos idiots...swear at each other if you want to..god knows you enjoy it..but if i see you saying anything derogatory about his or saxena or anybody elses mum or womenfolk i swear i will catch hold of your parents numbers from somewhere and direct them to this little speech you just made...im not being cute here...do it one more time and i`ll get you into so jch trouble you wont know what hit you

and you rsaxena, need to grow up really bad

binifer #354 so you are getting married? i guess we do have real people on chowk!! Best Wishes.

Re Bapu 338:

Bapu,

Did you search for that article on the net? If u did, the mind boggles at the thought of the search string you may have used. Of course it may be a field you specialise in, so who are we to snuff out the lamp of learning.

-----

Bongo Bandhu Subroto

What makes you think ,i had to look for it.If you have eyes like mine ,all of it is right under your nose,You nevwer will run out of material ,if you just see well .Only See

Hum ne bhi koi naqli ghee ke biryani nahi khaye hai

Bangal se Panjab,Kanya kumari se Ladhak & inbetween GULT,Tamil,Mallu,Kannadigan,Kokini,chehra dekh kar man ke pustaq parh leta hoon