Explaining it to an American Friend

Dear Patrick: I admire your well-written, rational and ``pride in Pakistan`` article. It makes me further respectful of you for your belonging to minority christians which has many genuine grieviances as minorities have suffered in Pakistan. Having said all that, I must support some of the things hamidm has said in his last post.

I disagree that general Muslims and Pakistanis feeling towards USA have to do with Palestine, support for Israel, supporting puppet regimes in middle east, colonialism and crusades only. These factors might resort few to extremism and terrorrism. However, a very large section of Muslims in the world as well as American Muslims feel that western culture and values are diametrically opposite to Islamic culture and value system. They do not resort to violence or openly raise their voices aginst USA but privately resent western culture and point to decadent culture, divorce rate, homosexuality, mini skirts, pre-marital sex, culture of violence, drugs, sex on media and on and on. To a limited extent these differences are benchmark in their relationships and raisng their children. On the surface it looks good to be conservative or ``Islamic`` but it creates a mutually exclusive club that is in constant and consistent disagreement with the larger and more powerful culture we live in. The MSA (Muslima Student Associations), PSA (Pakistan Student Associations) and private gatherings of Pakistanis or Muslims try to distinguish themselves on the basis of the above mentioned points.

I have no idea about the percentage of such people. They are no threat to USA but their loyalties to USA (those who live in USA) will remain limited. I believe same thing will happen with a large number of Jews, if USA became against Israel for some reason, in the future. At presence, though, the mutual exclusiveness of some Jews is not on a collision curse with USA interests. As long as Muslims remain weak, thanks to their infatuation with the medieval way of life, they will remain jealous of the successes of modern world and will keep resenting (mostly peacefully) and exclusive-an unhappy nation within a nation, a medieval loving segment of society within a forward looking society. For Muslim countries it will remain a recipe for poverty, backwardness and obscurantism.

Pointing out the successes of IT professionals or doctors of Muslim origin can not be presented a counter to my post because these are few fortunate or hard working individuals, a cream of the largely poor and uneducated Muslims societies. They are exceptions and not the norm.

PM

Yes, for the record, many textual mainstream sources have been allowing more diverse voices to express themselves. I am somewhat heartened by this, and yet a little wary of the agenda, as you had pointed out yourself, that we are being asked to agree with. Lets see how these trajectories play out within textual media. One might do a dissertation on how mainstream visual media has covered the WTC attack.

hamid

Been to the biryani dinners, (of course I was one of the females washing up after the menfolk:) )...and you raise a good point in asking what is one to say to some of the comments made by our more religious bros. I usually wander off to play with someone`s kid. Vastly more edifying.

tahmed

I won`t speak for all progressives, but the goals being developed focus on drawing attention to the economic disparities between the developing and industrialized worlds. Some theorists have argued that growing Islamic fundamentalism is a response to what is perceived as an endless onslaught of the cultural, materialistic, and labor and enviromentally exploitative values of multinational corporations, complicit governments and IMF/World Bank hegemonies. While many progressive orgs. worldwide don`t agree fundamentalists of any stripe, they are concerned about the unquestioned negatives of globalization. You are correct in pointing out that actors with vested interests will make democractic dissent a crime and will deal with it implementing less than democratic responses.

As for your other point, we obviously disagree on the media, as in other areas. However, let me remind you that the progressive left has greatly pushed the media to be more accountable and reperesentative of the diversity of belief in this country. It is usually 6 monthes to one year ahead in identifying significant economic, and political dynamics between state institutions and national and international citizenry. The mainstream usually gets it much later, if at all.

regards

harimau #174,

It isn`t Islam that has brought Afghanistan to it`s current state. Unless to a thick headed person like you, Islam is equal to the Taleban?

The Taleban does not rule the billions of Muslims in this world, get it?

Half the US and it`s Christian/Jewish leaders know that Islam is not about terrorism, except a few Indians on Chowk.

Just as educated people know that Hinduism is not all about caste, dowries, satti, and hare-krishna orgies, educated people also know that Islam is not about terrorism.

So quit being a racist pig.

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saminashah #139,145,152 I liked your immediate response (#139) best where you apologized if you had been flip. You make reasonable points in the remaining parts too. And I take back God from my earlier post (I am sure God has His hands full with the 6 billion wierdos on this planet, rather than just 2 that He started with, and bigger problems than merely shooing Adam and Eve away from the Apple).

I do think we muslims should worry less about real and/or perceived slights and threats, and worry more about doing something for the community around us.

Uh oh, looks like the Hamdani kings from Iran aren`t listening to ylh`s crying over India.

{{India, Russia, Iran plan to jointly boost anti-Taliban forces: report

NEW DELHI, Sept 23 (AFP) -

India, Russia and Iran are actively holding talks on ways to jointly back the opposition Northern Alliance forces against the ruling Taliban regime in Afghanistan, a report said Sunday.

``The three countries are keen on jointly promoting the Northern Alliance, which is battling the Taliban, chief benefactor of international terrorism, headquarted in Afghanistan,`` the Hindu newspaper said, citing highly-placed Indian government sources.

Ahmad Shah Masood, leader of the Northern Alliance, died in an explosion on September 9 allegedly caused by terrorists posing as Arab journalists.

His death came days before the terrorist attacks in the United States on September 11.

The prime suspect for the attacks on New York and Washington is Osama bin Laden, who is believed to be hiding in Afghanistan as a guest of the Taliban.

India does not recognise the Taliban regime, but sees ousted Afghan president Burhanuddin Rabbani, whom Masood served as defence minister, as the legitimate government.

The Hindu daily said India, Russia and Iran ``feel that a revived Northern Alliance, backed by a US-led coalition, should spearhead a military assault in Taliban strongholds in Kandahar, Kabul and Jalalabad.``

It added that these three countries feel that forming a strong alternative govenment in Afghanistan, would not only be central in rooting out international terrorism, but also protect their own interests.

India has offered unconditional support to the US in its efforts to build a global coalition against international terrorism.

India extends diplomatic accreditation to the ousted government of Rabbani and permits its mission in New Delhi to function as embassy here.}}

Imran criticised for comparing terror attacks to

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

cricket

LONDON, Sep 23 (PNS): Pakistani leaders have strongly criticised former

cricket captain Imran Khan for comparing the terror attacks in the U.S. to

a game of cricket.

http://www.paknews.org/sports.php?id=1&date1=2001-09-23

Imran criticised for comparing terror attacks to cricket

Updated on 2001-09-23 12:53:53





LONDON, Sep 23 (PNS): Pakistani leaders have strongly criticised former cricket captain Imran Khan for comparing the terror attacks in the U.S. to a game of cricket.

The Times of London quoted Imran as saying in Islamabad: ``When I was playing cricket, if I was hit by a fast ball I never rubbed the area and let a fast bowler know I had been hurt, but America has shown its vulnerability.``

The former Pakistani cricketer said the U.S. had shown its vulnerability through media reports of what it had suffered.

Suspected Islamic terrorists attacked New York and Washington September 11 by crashing hijacked U.S. aircraft into the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon respectively. Saudi exile Osama bin Laden is a prime suspect in the attacks.

``The existence of the mass media actually goes against America`s security because people watch the pictures on television of the buildings being hit by aircraft, and they see the U.S. stock market collapsing,`` Khan said. ``I am almost for censorship on this occasion.``

He said, ``I think the Americans don`t understand that this is a complicated new ball game.``

Leaders of several Pakistani parties in Britain rounded on Imran for his comments. ``For years Imran Khan has been comparing everything with cricket but we did not think he would do it this time,`` said a senior leader of the Pakistan People`s Party (PPP) who is close to party chief Benazir Bhutto.

``The leader of a party hoping to play a national role should not be suggesting that America has been hit by a cricket ball,`` he said.

A coordinator in London for former prime minister Nawaz Sharif`s Pakistan Muslim League (PML) said it was ``foolish`` to suggest that the American media should not cover an event like this. ``The poor performance of Imran Khan`s party shows that the people of Pakistan vote wisely,`` he added





SUDDENLY AMERICA HAS BECOME THE SACRED ``HOLY



COW``IT IS BLASHPHEMY TO EVEN TALK ABOUT IT!!!

hamidm,

Your description of ``them`` and their attitudes, and sense of identity is educative. Personally, I have never been able to undesrtand how ``they`` can justify moving to the secular (or, if in any way religous, Christian) US and still keep their primary allegience to ummah. Actually I *can * undestand it... it`s hypocrisy that comes from wanting to have it both ways.

I just read saaf-go`s post #97 on Pervez`s board.. thought this part of it worth repeating...

``Yes there is a lot that America can do better but Muslim countries and their leaders have to stop demonizing America for their own political gains. And American Muslims have to demonstrate that American blood runs in their veins and their loyalties are to America first.``

Dear dear dear (so dear) Tom

My already huge love for Amrika keeps growing. Innocent peaceloving islamist in me is very angry that danger against Islam is rising fast in Pakistan. Paksitanis are out to destroy Islam installing kafir Hindoo and lier Christendom system of secularism that is only jahalat, against Gods clear command to us to be always despotic. They have also begun to recognize national boundaries. That is such kafir thought against proud glorious Islamia. We must tell Islam hating Kafir Pakistanis that Islamia knows no difference between Pakisan and Afghanistan.

Every Islamia warrior must launch jihad (peaceful self purification) againt Pakistan using guns, mortar, rifles, bombs, knives, machetes. Islamia warriors must fight danger posed by Kafir Pakistanis. Pakistani injustice against Islamia is rising. On chowk also it is rising many Pakistani muslims (they are hindoos like dirty shias and ahmedis) talking against glorious, peaceful, innocent, compassionate Islamia. Pick up bombs, guns, machetes peaceful jihadis. Lauch self purification on Kufr Pakistan.

Yours in Osama

growing beard waiting for Taliban

Following anti Islamia letter in Pakistan`s *reputable * newspaper must remind Islamists to rise up against the kufr Paksitanis.

Will religious parties answer?

As a Pakistani, I would like to put some questions to those who organized Friday`s strike:

Question 1: Who are you loyal to - Pakistan or Afghanistan?

You live in Pakistan, eat Pakistani food, drink Pakistani water, breathe Pakistani air, yet you would like to hurt Pakistani interests for the sake of another country?

Question 2: Are you pleased with your performance on Friday? Your strike resulted in four deaths in Karachi. Who is responsible for the death of these innocent people? Did you please God with this act?

other jahalat.

RAFIQ ZAHEER

Karachi

TERROR AND PAKISTAN,

There are many on chowk hoping and posting that this is an opportune time for pakistan to get rid of the jihadists and become a moderate state. But the fact is that terrorism is ingrained in the pak society and its institutions. Pakistan is a country wgere a woman can be killed by her own relatives in a violent and public manner and the high court of lahore has said that it is completely legal.

The educated of pakistan have accepted this display of public terror as a routine act, a days work, and even the elected representatives of pakistan have refused to condone this.

Pakistan that approves and legitimises terror in the families, can never, never stop terrorism that is focussed on the kafirs.

The silence of the educated, the educated women, to the honour killing is a clear indication of the acceptance of terror as routine by the pak society at large.

KASHMIR AND AFGHANISTAN

APHC were the supporters of terrorists, they didnt want to talk to india, but talked to mushy. Now they are in a quandry, the locals are taliban supporters, and ironically APHC is not. From indian express of today

Hurriyat says militants forced Kashmiris to support strike

NAZIR MASOODI

SRINAGAR, SEPTEMBER 22: AFTER unsuccessfully trying to prevent Friday’s militant-sponsored strike in the Valley, the Hurriyat Conference today accused militants of coercing Kashmiris into participating in the strike. ‘‘Militants displayed guns and threatened people to observe the strike against a possible attack on Afghanistan. They fired in the air at a few places and displayed guns at Batamaloo and Downtown in Srinagar,’’ said Hurriyat executive member Abdul Gani Lone.

A senior police officer, however, said there were no reports that militants had displayed guns and fired in the air on Friday. ‘‘We have no such reports. There was no firing or exhibition of guns by militants in Batamaloo or in any part of the Valley,’’ the officer told The Indian Express.

Whose hatred?

Pakistani mullahs on Chowk have begun to whine about *hate *. I will give you fools a challenge. Compare Pakistani rags with Indian newspapers for the last one year. See who spews more hate about the other.

Your whole life is hate. Your country was created in hate. Of hate you will die.

ali1 143

You have questions. I have suggestions. Why dont you focus on your bhindi and wobbly headed jokes. Looking into the mirror must have sharpened your imagination. When Punajbis cut off even that half cut bhindi you carry, nothing much will be left for you.

Dearest dearest dearest PM

When some people tell the world that there is no difference between throwing acid on the faces of women who dont wish to wear burqa is the same as expecting everyone to wear clothes in public, no difference between killing 6000 people by hijacking airplanes and crashing them into buildings and responding to such crime, someone has to stand up and call their bluff.

Trusting in Osama Bin Laden

Gowardhan

Let`s not get too liberal

Western governments are responsible for many wrongs in the Muslim world, but that does not justify fascist fundamentalism

Christopher Hitchens

In one form or another, the people who levelled the World Trade Centre are the same people who threw acid in the faces of unveiled women in Kabul and Karachi, who maimed and eviscerated two of the translators of The Satanic Verses, and who machine-gunned architectural tourists at Luxor. Even as we worry about what they may intend for our society, we can see very plainly what they have in mind for their own: a bleak and sterile theocracy enforced by advanced techniques. Just a few months ago, the government in Bosnia surrendered its only accused war criminals to the international court at the Hague. The butchers had almost all been unwanted ``volunteers`` from the Chechen and Afghan and Kashmiri fronts; it is as an unapologetic defender of the Muslims of Bosnia (whose cause was generally unstained by the sorts of atrocity committed by Catholic and Orthodox Christians) that one can and must say that Bin-Ladenism poisons every thing that it touches.

I was apprehensive from the first moment about the sort of masochistic email traffic that might start circulating from the Noam Chomsky-Howard Zinn-Norman Finkelstein quarter, and I was not to be disappointed. With all due thanks to these worthy comrades, I know already that the people of Palestine and Iraq are victims of a depraved or indifferent western statecraft. And I think I can claim to have been among the first to point out that Clinton`s rocketing of Khartoum - supported by most liberals - was a gross war crime, which would certainly have entitled the Sudanese government to mount reprisals under international law. (Indeed, the spectacle of contented Clintonoids on TV, applauding the ``bounce in the polls`` achieved by their man that time, was even more repulsive than the sight of destitute refugee children making a wretched fiesta over the nightmare on Chambers Street.) But there is no sense at all in which the events of September 11 can be held to constitute such a reprisal, either legally or morally.

It is something worse than idle to propose the very trade-offs that may have been lodged somewhere in the closed-off minds of the mass-murderers. The people of Gaza live under curfew and humiliation and expropriation. This is notorious. Very well: does anyone suppose that an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza would have forestalled the slaughter in Manhattan? It would take a moral cretin to suggest anything of the sort; the cadres of the new jihad make it very apparent that their quarrel is with Judaism and secularism on principle, not with (or not just with) Zionism. They regard the Saudi regime not as the extreme authoritarian theocracy that it is, but as something too soft and lenient. The Taliban forces viciously persecute the Shi`a minority in Afghanistan. The Muslim fanatics in Indonesia try to extirpate the infidel minorities there; civil society in Algeria is barely breathing after the fundamentalist assault. Now is as good a time as ever to revisit the history of the Crusades, or the sorry history of partition and Kashmir, or the woes of the Chechens and Kosovars.

But the bombers of Manhattan represent fascism with an Islamic face, and there`s no point in any euphemism about it. What they abominate about ``the west``, to put it in a phrase, is not what western liberals don`t like and can`t defend about their own system, but what they do like about it and must defend: its emancipated women, its scientific inquiry, its separation of religion from the state. Loose talk about chickens coming home to roost is the moral equivalent of the hateful garbage emitted by Falwell and Robertson, and exhibits about the same intellectual content. Indiscriminate murder is not a judgment, even obliquely, on the victims or their way of life, or ours. Any observant follower of the prophet Mohammed could have been on one of those planes, or in one of those buildings - yes, even in the Pentagon.

The new talk is all of ``human intelligence``: the very faculty in which our ruling elite is most deficient. A few months ago, the Bush administration handed the Taliban a subsidy of $43m, in abject gratitude for the assistance of fundamentalism in ``the war on drugs``. Next up is the renewed ``missile defence`` fantasy, recently endorsed by even more craven Democrats who seek to occupy the void ``behind the President``. Idiocy can contribute no more. There is sure to be further opportunity to emphasise the failings of our supposed leaders, whose costly mantra is ``national security`` and who could not protect us. And yes, indeed, my guide in Peshawar was a shadow thrown by William Casey`s CIA, which first connected the unstoppable Stinger missile to the infallible and inerrant Koran. But that`s only one way among many of stating the obvious, which is that Islamic fascism is an enemy for life, as well as an enemy of life.

PM,

I didn`t know that you really had to write this response to your good friend Tom.

You could have just asked Chowk to reprint the article `Let Us Destroy the Bamiyan Buddhas`. Perhaps, change the title to `Let us Destroy the WTC Towers`.

It would have saved us a lot of time. We would have known that arguments would not be worth reading or commenting on.

We all would have left the board to YLH, Urstruly, Ali1, Farangi_Kush, Scout, Ayesha Sarwari and that famous Indian Muslima beloved by so many Pakistanis Farzana Versey. They could all wallow in self-pity over the plight of Muslims in the world and the injustices meted out to them because they now get suspicious glances in the streets of NYC when they are not celebrating the great harm done to the Great Satan aka USA.

I am surprised that Studebaker hasn`t come out claiming how the US is now the belly of the beast.

As I said on that board:

Hang down your head in shame.

That is, if you feel any shame at all.