Explaining it to an American Friend

This is a real good joke. Please no offence intended.

An Indian was sitting with a Pakistani and a Malaysian in Saudi Arabia, sharing a smuggled barrel of beer, when all of a sudden,Saudi police entered and arrested them.They were initially sentenced to death but they contested this

and were finally imprisoned for life. But, as It was a national holiday,the Sheikh decided they should be released after receiving 20 lashes of

the whip.As they were preparing for their punishment, the Sheikh suddenly said: ``It`s my first wife`s birthday today, and she asked me to allow each of you one wish before your whipping.``So the Malaysian guy thought for a while and then said: ``Please be tying a pillow to my back.`` This was done but the pillow only lasted 10 lashes before the whip went through. The Pakistani guy, watching the scene, said: ``Please fix two pillows on my back``. But even two pillows could only take 10 lashes before the whip went through again. Before the Indian fellow could say something, the Sheikh turned to

him and said: ``As you are from a small country, and your football team

and your golfers are terrible, and your women skinny, you can have two wishes!``.

``Thank you,Most Royal and Merciful Highness``, the Indian replies. ``My first wish is: `` I would like to have 40 lashes.`` ``If you so desire``, the Sheik replies with a questioning look on his face,``and your second wish?`` ``Tie the Pakistani to my back``, the Indian answers.

Is it patriotism or Paki brainwashing?

PM does not see any difference between murderers who killed 5000 poeple, their supporters like himself, their financiars like Musharraf, and everybody else.

He can`t. Sometime back he was arguing that those barbarians who throw acid on the faces of women who dont want to wear burqa are the same as those who expect others to wear clothes when going out.

It is a Pakistani disease. There is no cure. I said before, it has become Pakistanis against the humanity.

Ref scout #: 45

[harimau #17, ``Tell me, sweetheart, when was the first time elections were held in Northern Territories.``

First of all, keep the term ``sweetheart`` to yourself. I don`t need that kind of cheap patronizing.]

Well, Scout, do you have the date when elections were held in the Northern Area? Now, you have the question without the patronizing `sweetheart`. Would you please answer the question? Pretty please? With icing on top?

[Secondly, I don`t want to argue with hatemongers like you. I just told you not to vomit your hatred onto this board as well.]

I suppose you guys will get to hold elections in Northern Area when hell freezes over.

[So once again, don`t pollute all of the boards with hate. It`s getting boring, repetitive, and no one`s reading. Tell that to your boyfriends too.]

Boyfriends are promised the shaheeds in the Quran. They are called ghilman; 24 for each man. We Hindus are mostly heterosexual.

Do you Pak girls actually get husbands? Are Paki men bi-sexual? I am just curious.

a) Anything done with clockwork precision has to be either Swiss, German or Japanese. No other community is capable.

b) Was only the second atom bomb or both atom bombs on Japan acts of terrorism? Or none?

c) Khartoum? Sudan? Iraq? What have these got to do with paedophilia, Patrick?

d) Do you also happen to know Francis Masih of Karachi, ex-Merchant Navy?

Somehow, Patrick, I get this disturbing feeling when I read your stuff . . . what is worse, terrorism or paedophilia?

No, Patrick, you are not going to be The Chosen One . . .

````My fifteen-year-old pupil finds out from his peers that he`s queer for wanting to embrace me when it`s not even Eid. (And I`m a `pervert` because I find him so cute I`d like to kiss him full on his lips.)````

Patrick

You made a good attempt at explaining things. One of the problems with the Americans is that they consider America as the world and dont want to look beyond America to find out how people in other parts of the world think. But then who said that life is fair. You and I may think that all lives are equally precious but we know very well it does not work this way in the real world. To put it coldly, if your country is not prosperous and powerful, your life is not as important as a Caucasian from the western world. And to a large extent, the responsibility for this lies with our inept countries and societies. The frequent pronouncements by Bush about fighting against ``evil power`` seem to imply a false righteousness and ``just cause`` as if the things are completely in black and white. But lets not blame him for it. It is American interests that are in his mind and not morality which anyway has little value in international politics. The key lies in developing prosperous and strong nations if one wants to be counted as equals. Gandhi said that poverty is the biggest sin. It is not a sin to be born a poor but it is sin to die a poor. If people want to be treated fairly on equal terms, they should work towards building powerful nations. In short, what you say is fair and square, but this is the way it works. I would advise people to learn the rules of the game and play. Dont blame America for unfairness, look inwards to find the causes and strive to acquire a place amongst the successful peoples of the world.

Well Chowkies, someone wrote a good speech for Dubya and he just gave it, looking no less a child in his disgruntled father`s passed down suit. Its going to be interesting to see what happens in the next few days. One small pleasure was to hear the Taliban specifically singled out as a repressive regime. Payback for the women, ethnic communities, marxists and destroyed Buddhas...

On the other hand, I have the feeling that all this rambo love is getting paid for through our social service budgets. More Republican mumbo jumbo

Hi Pat (PM),

Thanks for responding. To be honest, I wrongfully perceived these articles as means of making statements, and not to expect a response. This site has proven that it is not run by dogmatic minds, and therefore not driven by any agenda.

To the world: ``here is a good example of true Islam``

Americans by and large believe that terrorism is an act of violence which is based on perception and ideology of few people or organizations. e.g. American militia, KKK, Irish republican Army, Al-quida, RSS, Hamas etc. These are the minorities who choose to divert from being part of the society and its rules and instead of differing with views in civilized manner, resort to violence.

American involvement in Iraq war was after the fact that invasion of Kuwait had taken place. A mistake of bombing a pharma plant in Sudan is a lesson well learned and as a result no immediate reaction on Afghanistan yet. Americans do not blindly agree with Gov. decision on war. Vietnam is a prime example. But Americans have learned along the way that, like it or not, if we do not stand for freedom and peace, even if it is not on their motherland, it will sooner or later affect them. Americans are convinced that even if USA pulls out of gulf region and even if land of Israel is given to Palestine, these fanatics will not be satisfied and will not stop there. Why? A cruel fact of history: fanatics in the name of religion (Islam and Christianity) are the sole reason of destruction since atleast last 2000 years. It`s a trait of human nature we unfortunately have not been able to evolve out of yet.

So, collectively, all Muslims have a big responsibility to stand up for the shake of humanity and show the world what true Islam is: (not the one shown by Osama at el). It is time to condemn fanatics, not Islam. Take a clue from America`s fight against American militia groups and KKK. If people stand up without fear, no such group can thrive at the extent of being capable of massive destruction.

And pat, judging from the world reaction, it seems you will have lots of support from people of all religions, including atheists.

Regards,

Joseph

Questions unasked, unanswered

By

Sadia Rauf

``Innocent until proven guilty``. Isn`t that the

famous American principle of fairness and justice? Of not laying blame

until and unless acquitted or convicted by a jury.

Backed by proof, by evidence, by irrefutable information that seals a

case.

And on September 11, 2001 - within an hour of

the brutal, inhuman attack on the twin towers the media was pasting

Osama bin Laden on all screens. All reporters

echoing the same `suspicion`, all news channels eagerly stating their

opinions about who could be behind this devastating attack on

humanity. But that was not a question really. Rhetoric rather. No one,

absolutely no one thought twice before placing the blame on

`Islamic militants`. It was more of a ``but obviously`` response.

Speaking from a layman`s point of view.

Speaking as a general person who knows not much about the intricacies

of politics, religions, and history. Speaking as a person

who has no allegiance to specific groups, to specific societies, to

specific segments. Speaking with the information gathered through

the media, I cannot understand why there are only a dwindling number

who are questioning this tragedy.

And I question only because of the media.

Brush aside if you will, this: `Gamma Video` - footage of the first

plane crashing into Tower One was being taken by some cameraman.

The clipping shows us, the foolish population of the world, the camera

focusing on the WTC, with two fire fighters

standing, looking at the camera and then turning to look at its point

of focus. That instant we see the first plane crash into the

building. This cameraperson was standing blocks away from the point of

disaster - in safe territory.

Explain how, why and what that person was

doing, focusing on the target before disaster struck? Although this

footage has been shown by CNN repeatedly, what is even

more strange is that people, friends watching it with me just sit

there marvelling at the shot, at the view, at the disaster

unravelling in front of their very eyes. But no one wondered how on

earth was that possible. How were we being shown footage of a

disaster, as it was about to happen and not when it had happened?

Repeat and odd appearances of general public -

Perhaps, like most, I watched the two main news channels late into

night the day it happened. The same goes for successive

days. What I noticed was that there was one woman who turned up on the

screen more than once: an African-American

lady they showed who had escaped the devastation by running out, whom

the cameras caught in semi-flight and asked her to

comment. She is hysterical and lifts up her skirt to show a dusty,

bleeding leg, saying everyone was injured.. of course

everyone is bleeding.

Four days later she is seen conspicuously

wandering about in the crowds behind the camera stationed blocks away

from ``Ground Zero``. Six days after the tragedy, she

reappears standing in front of the ``Missing Persons`` wall... just

casually (yet pretending exactly not to be that casual),

glancing at the various pictures of loved ones pasted on the wall. In

a city with 10 million people, what is the probability of

seeing the same person thrice in a span of six days?

Then, how many saw that `touching` story when

an old couple was reunited. ``A story that unravelled right before our

cameras``. Very well-timed. Very convenient. It was

called ``When Harry Met Rosy``. CNN cameras were following this lady

this volunteer by the name of Sergio who was her

`angel`, who tracked down her husband whom she had lost when the

buildings collapsed. And there were the cameras

capturing the moment on film to broadcast repetitively. In this time

of chaos, with thousands of people displaced, CNN managed to

be covering that one story that would indeed `unravel`.

Abandoned Reporting - When the Pentagon was

hit, the cameras were there soon enough and in all that confusion the

reporter said that the media crew had just spotted

`another plane circling above the White House` and that a military

aircraft had followed it to deal with that matter. That

plane was never mentioned again. Was it the one that `crashed` in

Pennsylvania? The one that reportedly had a scuffle on board

because as luck would have it some one on board called some one else

telling them the plane was hijacked and she told him the

WTC buildings had been hit by two planes and he made her hold, took a

head count of men on board and said he had decided

they would deal with it. Read that running passage again. And then

read on.

Surreal. That man had time to chat over a cell

phone. Then conveniently enough, he and all the men on board turned

out to be heroes who made the brave decision to

overpower the supposed hijackers. Hijackers whose description he never

gave. And that plane `crashed` somewhere in

Pennsylvania... missing the target completely yet killing the many on

board.

Photographs - Many visuals that have been

shown on several channels, websites and magazines show people walking

out of the building under attack. Even if they were

not aware at that point in time that it was an attack, there was an

explosion, the building shook, the ground moved, the sky

outside their office windows burst into flames and smoke. They were

`walking`. Pictures apparently recovered from some

camera, now shown on TV, of people walking down stairs `evacuating the

building`. Walking. You can tell, even if it is a still

picture if the people are running, panicking or just walking.

Voice recorders - Found, from the Pentagon and

the crash site in Pennsylvania. Mentioned a few times in excitement

and suddenly we hear nothing of it. What happened?

A brusque, lone, brief, hardly noticeable statement that the voice

recorder was damaged to the extent that the data could not

be recovered. Simple.

None of the above implies a tragedy has not

happened. Undoubtedly it has. A brutal, vicious attack, which has

taken thousands of lives and marred lives of those who have

lost loved ones. It has been a disaster that has moved anyone worth

calling human. Anyone with an ounce of feeling. It is a sight

one cannot forget. A thought... a million thoughts with the people on

the four planes, with the people trapped in the floors

high above, with those who leapt from a hundred stories above the

ground hoping for a chance of life, with the rescuers and

civilians buried beneath the devastating tons of rubble. The thoughts

run into nightmares.

But there are things that do not fit - things

which are so out of place that it is impossible not to question the

truth behind this devastation. Facts which have been stated

above. Facts which have as easily been overlooked by so many.

Magazines take the lead and lash out at

`Muslim extremists`, at a religion that has been tainted by those who

claim to be followers but in essence are not. Reputed

magazines claim these people with an `intemperate interpretation of

Islam` are the ones behind it all. They state with a

confidence that cannot be justified without proof that this attack was sophistication of the complex network of

devout, high-spirited Islamic militants whom bin Laden has been

assembling for almost 20 years.` And where is the proof?

Bin Laden may be what they claim or he may

not. I have no proof, no evidence to go either way. Stuck in the

middle with nothing concrete to stand up for. Yet, I will

not defy that much-used and often-abused statement of `innocent until

proven guilty`. He has been accused of much

destruction, of must terrorism, of training militants. And perhaps he

has been responsible. But till now, we and the rest of the world

have not been shown a shred of concrete evidence to justify this

finger pointing. Instead they assume: ``For him, life is

pre-ordained, written in advance by God, who in bin Laden`s view must

have delighted in the deaths of all those infidels in Manhattan

last week.``

Assumptions stated as facts. If there is

indeed `real and credible` evidence why has it not been shared?

`National security` would be the safest spin. And that is what the world

has been receiving.

One cannot expect Americans to sit back and

have the presence of mind to question. After their life has been

thrown into a torrent of grief, after an attack on their way

of life, their existence, their sense of security. It is crippling.

And they will not question. They are human. They will, like all

other mortals, be blinded by the anger of being attacked as they were.

Thoughts will be focusing on vendetta, on revenge. No

clear thinking. No pragmatism.

And that, is where the schemers win.

Taken from Dawn (www.dawn.com)

September 20, 2001

BJP divided over support to US

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Deepshikha Ghosh in New Delhi

The Bharatiya Janata Party is again a chatter of different voices, over how far the government should support US military response to the horrendous terror attacks in New York and Washington.

It started with low-key murmurs of dissent against External Affairs and Defence Minister Jaswant Singh`s offer of all logistical support to the US in any strikes against Afghanistan, which shelters Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, suspected by the US of masterminding the September 11 attacks.

A sharp opinion divide came out at a meeting of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee`s cabinet on Tuesday, when four BJP ministers questioned the government`s eagerness in offering military help to the US even before it was sought.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Although the BJP is not talking about it, party sources have identified the four ministers as Pramod Mahajan (Parliamentary Affairs), Jagmohan (Tourism), Sushma Swaraj (Information and Broadcasting) and Murli Manohar Joshi (Human Resource Development).

Another BJP MP who has reportedly flayed the government on the issue is spokesman Vijay Kumar Malhotra.

The situation is reminiscent of the widespread disapproval within the party when Jaswant Singh accompanied to Kandahar in Afghanistan militants released from Indian prisons in exchange for passengers of a hijacked Indian Airlines plane in December 1999.

Many in the BJP, at various levels, are bitter that the government is being seen as bending before the US when Washington has refused to snap its long-standing ties with Pakistan, which is accused by India of promoting terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir.

Some BJP leaders are unhappy that the government is fully backing the US when it has refused to condemn more than a decade of terrorist violence in Kashmir.

Commenting on the reported division in the cabinet, BJP leader Sunil Shastri said: ``A few people have expressed their opinion but that does not mean the party is divided. The party unanimously stands behind its government.``

He said the party would support whatever decision the government took if the US were to seek military help from India.

Shastri defended Jaswant Singh`s eagerness in publicly expressing India`s willingness to offer military support to the US thus, ``His immediate response was very appropriate...very human.``

``As for logistical support, you have to look at the situation in totality. That can happen only if the US asks for specific help,`` he added.

Senior BJP leader JP Mathur said, ``The party will support whatever decision the government will take, with national interest in mind. But we should not get entangled in a physical fight unless absolutely necessary.``

Indo-Asian News Service

September 20, 2001

Indian Visa Applications for U.S. Fall After Attacks

By REUTERS

Filed at 8:13 a.m. ET

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - The number of Indians applying for visas at the

U.S. embassy in New Delhi has plummeted from last year`s levels after

the hijack plane attacks on the United States, an embassy official

said on Thursday.

Indian travel agents have also reported sharp falls in bookings for

the United States after passenger jets slammed into the World Trade

Center and the Pentagon on September 11, leaving thousands dead or

missing.

The U.S. embassy said there were 1,685 visa applications in New Delhi

from September 11 to September 18. This was down 60 percent from

4,168 in the same period last year.

``The numbers have certainly come down. A lot of people are delaying

their visits to the United States,`` Gordon K. Duguid, press

secretary at the U.S. embassy, told Reuters.

The long snaking lines of visa seekers normally seen outside the

sprawling U.S. embassy in New Delhi have almost disappeared.

The handful of people outside the visa section had mixed feeling

about traveling to the United States.

Dalbir Singh, a Sikh farmer whose daughter was going to the United

States to meet her husband, said he not was worried about sending her

despite the hijack attacks.

``What happened in America was terrorism. But I have no fear about my

son-in-law and daughter being in America. We have faced terrorism in

India as well,`` Singh said.

But Nakul Kalra, a legal assistant who has applied for a work visa,

was anxious. ``I`m worried about the terrorist strikes against the

United States. It`s not a great time to go to America.``

TOURISTS STAY AWAY

The number of U.S. visas issued to skilled Indian workers has been

soaring over the past few years. The number of work visas issued

leapt to 55,047 in 2000 from 15,288 in 1995.

Despite the drop in New Delhi, the U.S. consulate in Madras, which

handles thousands of visa applications from the infotech centers of

Bangalore and Hyderabad, said it had not noticed a fall in the number

of applicants.

But Indian travel agencies say both business and leisure travelers

are keeping away from the United States.

Richa Goyal, a director with the STIC Group of Companies, a large

travel firm with 38 offices in India, said its office in the capital

had reported a 90 percent drop in new bookings to the United States.

Interest in immigration to the United States, however, remained high,

an immigration lawyer in Bombay said.

``I was worried on (last) Tuesday night and thought my practice would

stop. But the next morning no one had canceled appointments. No one

showed anxiety,`` Sudhir Shah told Reuters.

He added he continued to get seven clients each day and nearly 30 e-

mail inquiries.

I am so, so, tired of the excuses. Iraqi people have themselves to blame for not taking out Saddam before he could volunteer his people as targets. Pakistani`s have no one to blame except themselves for their current situation. Everyone accept Americans take responsibility for their government`s actions. When are other countries going to do it? Power by the people. Democracy. That`s why I can go shopping at any hour and eat, or drink, or worship, or drive, or yell, or dance...get it?

What we are doing HERE (US) is working. IF no one else believed we wouldn`t be the capital for a multi-cultural society. Obviously, if we have to step up to the plate to be the `world policeman`, then that means someone cannot regulate themselves like an unruly child unattended during a sermon.

Now the US will blast the slackers.

God Bless America and Allah.

Farroq

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Very disturbing article at:

http://www.nandotimes.com/special_reports/terrorism/investigation/story/89850p-1156637c.html

PM #43
``I share your wishes. What say we bring all that up on a board describing sectarian violence in Pakistan. Why don`t you post one such article. For now, let`s not confuse issues. Thanks.``

Actually, the issues are the same. Many articles have already been written on the connection between Pakistan`s foreign policy and sectarian violence, even one by the Canadian Immigration and Refugee Board. The number dead in sectarian violence is in the hundreds? Approx 1/3rd the Taliban`s fighting force are Pakistanis according to a Human Rights Watch report published this year, which included boys under 18. A figure quoted by another report is that the number approximates 8000 Pakistanis.

As you say, there are many ways of looking at these things, each to his/her own.

#52

Harami..OU

``[. We Hindus are mostly heterosexual.

Do you Pak girls actually get husbands? Are Paki men bi-sexual? I am just curious.}``]



Hari.MOU

Rotfl.....w/tears in my eyes...ha ha ha ha

Then what was that scandal about Sat Sai Ba Ba ,your greatest Hindi God man living,forcibly holding young boys!!& india being hub of gays in Delhi ,mumai with spate of movies made to prove it.

Look at your curiosity about handsome Pathan Muscleman Pakistani ,still hoping against hope,wishing ,to cout ,if they did men like YOU ``are pakistani men bisexual?``