Islams Challenge
Ronald K Rodebaugh September 23, 2001
#504 Posted by scout on October 6, 2001 2:56:12 pm
MaheshG #512, `` So, basically what you are saying is that as long as India occupies Kashmir you will keep on killing little Kashmiri school girls.``
So basically, what you are saying is that as long as the Indian army is in the area, YOU will keep on raping innocent Kashmiri women and killing Kashmiri protesters with bullets?
I`m sorry MaheshG you leave me no choice but to answer your question with a similar stupid question.
``You accused RSaxena, Gowardhan and Jay of attacking all Muslims. As far as I can recall they have laid the blame for WTC only at Pakistan`s doorstep. So, where did you get this idea that they were attacking Muslims?``
I know you really love those hateful Indians, but please don`t try to defend the indefensible. It`s silly. I don`t defend Urstruly or Ali or YLH when they`re uttering misguided hatred against Hindus.
So why are you?
So basically, what you are saying is that as long as the Indian army is in the area, YOU will keep on raping innocent Kashmiri women and killing Kashmiri protesters with bullets?
I`m sorry MaheshG you leave me no choice but to answer your question with a similar stupid question.
``You accused RSaxena, Gowardhan and Jay of attacking all Muslims. As far as I can recall they have laid the blame for WTC only at Pakistan`s doorstep. So, where did you get this idea that they were attacking Muslims?``
I know you really love those hateful Indians, but please don`t try to defend the indefensible. It`s silly. I don`t defend Urstruly or Ali or YLH when they`re uttering misguided hatred against Hindus.
So why are you?
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#503 Posted by rsridhar on October 6, 2001 2:56:12 pm
Re: That roach called OBL
Guys,
I angered scout and other like minded people by saying some nasty things and let me take this opportunity to say i feel bad. But let me explain.
I have been watching T.V channels telling us about OBL in great detail. He comes out as a pious, religious person who gave up his comforts for a cause he believes in. He was also shown to be living in utter simplicity, sharing his meal with other colleagues. These are good qualities. He strongly believes that presence of American troops in Saudia Arabia is unislamic. May be millions of muslims share the same opinion. Where he crosses bounds of decency and civilised behavvior is in thinking that solution to what he thinks are problems is through violence. Since he is pitted against a super power, he has resorted to terrorism and guerilla warfare, thereby killing innocent people.
What irks many non-muslims like me is that while almost all muslims who i watched over T.V here in USA have openly condemned terrorism and said islam does not support this kind of act, few have openly condemned OBL. One muslim clergy when asked point blank by Judy Woodruff over CNN if he condemned OBL, went on a tangent. School girls in one school in Quetta, common man on streets in parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan have openly questioned the fact that OBL may be involved and asked for proof. The need of the hour is for all muslims to completely isolate men who indulge in terrorism and clearly state their stand. Unfortunately, this is not happening. At least that is my view and i may be wrong. USA on the other hand has gone to great length to ensure muslims around the world do not see this as a muslim versus rest battle. The American efforts are commendable and need to be supported. Let us not forget, if there is a country which can forge an international alliance against this menace, it is USA.
Sridhar
Guys,
I angered scout and other like minded people by saying some nasty things and let me take this opportunity to say i feel bad. But let me explain.
I have been watching T.V channels telling us about OBL in great detail. He comes out as a pious, religious person who gave up his comforts for a cause he believes in. He was also shown to be living in utter simplicity, sharing his meal with other colleagues. These are good qualities. He strongly believes that presence of American troops in Saudia Arabia is unislamic. May be millions of muslims share the same opinion. Where he crosses bounds of decency and civilised behavvior is in thinking that solution to what he thinks are problems is through violence. Since he is pitted against a super power, he has resorted to terrorism and guerilla warfare, thereby killing innocent people.
What irks many non-muslims like me is that while almost all muslims who i watched over T.V here in USA have openly condemned terrorism and said islam does not support this kind of act, few have openly condemned OBL. One muslim clergy when asked point blank by Judy Woodruff over CNN if he condemned OBL, went on a tangent. School girls in one school in Quetta, common man on streets in parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan have openly questioned the fact that OBL may be involved and asked for proof. The need of the hour is for all muslims to completely isolate men who indulge in terrorism and clearly state their stand. Unfortunately, this is not happening. At least that is my view and i may be wrong. USA on the other hand has gone to great length to ensure muslims around the world do not see this as a muslim versus rest battle. The American efforts are commendable and need to be supported. Let us not forget, if there is a country which can forge an international alliance against this menace, it is USA.
Sridhar
#502 Posted by scout on October 6, 2001 2:56:12 pm
rsridhar #507,
``We are going round in circles. Everyone needs to realise that violence in all forms is bad.``
I agree.
``Violence in Kashmir was started by terrorists or jehadis or freedom fighters whatever name you wish to label them by. Remember, no country will sit by and watch violence unleashed on its territories.``
Ok, so why not get to the root of the violence. Have you ever thought of that? Do you think these ``freedom fighters or terrorists or jehadis whatever name you wish to label them by`` are becoming violent just for the heck of it? They want something and the majority of the Kashmiri people aren`t complaining. Yes, it`s wrong, but how else does one fight oppression? Certainly in that area, civil disobedience won`t work. The ideals of Martin Luther King and Mohandas Gandhi will not work in the valleys of Kashmir. The Indian Army won`t let that work. The Indian government just doesn`t want to hear the KAshmiri people`s woes.
``Kashmiri aspirations are genuine. There is no reason to believe such aspirations cannot be fulfilled within the framework of India`s constitution.``
And what progress has been made in that direction?
Your precious angelic Indian army combats the stones of Kashmiri protesters with guns and bullets.
``Other states like Bihar, Orissa have worse economic problems but they have not resorted to a vilent struggle against the center.``
But does that make it ok for Bihar and Orissa to struggle economically and socially? How do they utter their grievances when the government doesn`t listen, or puts them on the back burner?
``Hence, the problem is not the grievance itself but the way it is being addressed in Kashmir.``
Excuse me, did you just say the problem is not a grievance? How the hell could you say that? The majority of Kashmiris want their freedom, want the right to self determination, and you don`t call that a grievance?
``The human rights violations that occur while India fights these terrorists are regrettable but also inevitable.``
So in that vein, I can also say that the freedom fighters` violent revolts are regrettable but inevitable.
``Terrorists are an invisible enemy. They hide like roaches and kill with impunity. While fighting them, it is inevitable that some (nay, many) innocent people will suffer.``
The Indian doesn`t hide but kills endlessly, while fighting them, it is inevitable that the Kashmir backed freedom fighters might kill some innocent people. How does that sound? You yourself were so against violence earlier, and now you`re condoning it as long as the Indian army is carrying it through?
``If Pak really cared, it should stop abetting and sponsoring terrorism from across the border.``
If Indian really cared, it would have stopped the terrorism of it`s army in Kashmir and given Kashmiris their rights and freedom.
``India is prepared to go to war for Kashmir. If it results in exchange of nuclear weapons, so be it.``
Whereever there is oppression, the oppressed will do anything to gain freedom from the oppressors. Remember learning about the American Revolution? It`s the same struggle in Kashmir, but in an obviously smaller scale.
In the case of Kashmir, India is the oppressor, and the only way to stop the blind oppressor is by revolting. And that is what the Kashmiris are doing, backed by Pakistanis or not.
``A little introspection by anyone with commonsense will reveal that Kashmir policy has been disastrous for Pak. Pak today is at the mercy of international monetory agencies through which USA keeps a tight tab on Pak.``
Yes it has, but partly so. Pakistan is also in the hole because of corrupt leadership and government. It is also suffering because of the rise of fundamentalists who would rather go back in history than move with the times.
``Do the Pakistanis feel good when some westerners tell them what to do?``
No but to tell you the truth, westerners are telling all third world countries what to do these days. If the West asked India to do something right this minute, India would go down on it`s knees and say, `yes sahib.` We`re nothing compared to developed nations. Thus the subservient attitudes. There is no choice.
``Is the hatred of India so much in Pak that they are willing to take every other form of SH!T only to keep an appearance that they are giving India a tough time?``
Is the hatred of Pakistanis and Kashmiris so much in India that they are willing to see people die every day?
``Many good Pakistani commentators and journalists have clearly stated that Kashmir policy of mini-war in Kashmir by Pak through militants has been disastrous.``
It doesn`t take a rocket scientist to figure that out.
``Today, Talibanists and militants belonging to Taliban have come to haunt Pakistani rulers. Again,this pro-Taliban has been encouraged in order to rule Afghanistan by proxy as a means of
achieving strategic depth vis-a-vis India. Was this a correct policy? Obviously not.``
Wouldn`t you try to have some diplomatic relations with a neighboring country when the other side of the border has a hateful enemy (India). It`s a simple political/military strategy. However unfruitful, Pakistan had no choice but to recognize Afghanistan. To be stuck in the middle of two enemies would be disastrous don`t you think? But guess what, with the way that things are going between Afghanistan and Pakistan right now, Pakistan WILL be stuck between two enemies.
But we couldn`t help it.
``Today, Pakistan is the only country to have official links to Taliban. It tries to cling on to Taliban in the hope that it can salvage an impossible situation.``
Read what I have said above. Even a first grader would understand that it`s not a good thing to be sitting in the middle of two bullies everyday.
``It is being led kicking and screaming by the world community. Is this a good spectacle for most Pakistanis?``
Oh pleaseeeeeeeee, that`s so immature. Typical Indian mockery at it`s worst. Most of the world including most of Pakistan is shocked by the horrible tragedies that occurred on September 11th. Pakistan lost 200 people of it`s own in the World Trade Center. Everybody`s hurting. CNN is aired in Pakistan. The majority of people in Pakistan saw the world trade centers go down along with the world.
``The real culprit is your Army. It has created hatred against India and benefitted in the process.``
And your government and army are angels? Where does hatred for Pakistan come from in India? By your media, your government, and your army. Check your own purse before delving into Pakistan`s.
``Today, one person is deciding the fate of 130 million Pakistanis. Instead of creating a consensus on policies, policies encouraged for 20 years and more, however wrong they may be (i am talking about pro-Taliban policies here)are being discarded at the drop of a hat.``
The Taleban hasn`t been in power for 20 years. What are you talking about? As far as the military ruler, Pakistan was and is an unidealistic political state. We do the best with what we have. Our leaders have surpassed the levels of corruption. The bloodless military coup
was the only way to stamp out Nawaz Shareef`s exceeding corruption.
``What about discarding your time-tested friend China. How do you think China will feel about the way Mushy boy is suc.king upto Uncle Sam?``
Are you guys jealous that Vajpayee`s `suc.king up` isn`t going anywhere? India went crazy trying to suc.k up to the US the minute the first plane hit the first tower. But that`s beside the point. President Musharraf realized the magnitude of the situation and thus acted accordingly. Any country would do the same.
``When all this is over and if Pak manages to come out unscathed, do you think China will still be a strategic partner.``
You think China is unsupportive of the US`s war against terrorism? They may not say so vehemently, but they are with the world right now.
And the world is with the US. There is no question about Pak/China relations at this point. It is childish to even bring that up. And Indians are acting pretty childish right now.
``At worst of times (when Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan)India did not turn its back on Soviet Union, however wrong that policy of invasion was. There was a consensus at home and we could tell the Americans and the rest who opposed us to take a hike. That is the strenght of democracy.``
NOPE, that is the stregth of FEAR. India was FEARFUL of the Soviet Union. Remember, the Soviet Union was the second most powerful nation in the world back then. And it was in close proximity with India. Now if I were India, I`d be pretty scared to upset the great neighbor too. It`s pretty stupid of you to turn that into an `India the great democracy` situation. It`s pathetic.
``We are going round in circles. Everyone needs to realise that violence in all forms is bad.``
I agree.
``Violence in Kashmir was started by terrorists or jehadis or freedom fighters whatever name you wish to label them by. Remember, no country will sit by and watch violence unleashed on its territories.``
Ok, so why not get to the root of the violence. Have you ever thought of that? Do you think these ``freedom fighters or terrorists or jehadis whatever name you wish to label them by`` are becoming violent just for the heck of it? They want something and the majority of the Kashmiri people aren`t complaining. Yes, it`s wrong, but how else does one fight oppression? Certainly in that area, civil disobedience won`t work. The ideals of Martin Luther King and Mohandas Gandhi will not work in the valleys of Kashmir. The Indian Army won`t let that work. The Indian government just doesn`t want to hear the KAshmiri people`s woes.
``Kashmiri aspirations are genuine. There is no reason to believe such aspirations cannot be fulfilled within the framework of India`s constitution.``
And what progress has been made in that direction?
Your precious angelic Indian army combats the stones of Kashmiri protesters with guns and bullets.
``Other states like Bihar, Orissa have worse economic problems but they have not resorted to a vilent struggle against the center.``
But does that make it ok for Bihar and Orissa to struggle economically and socially? How do they utter their grievances when the government doesn`t listen, or puts them on the back burner?
``Hence, the problem is not the grievance itself but the way it is being addressed in Kashmir.``
Excuse me, did you just say the problem is not a grievance? How the hell could you say that? The majority of Kashmiris want their freedom, want the right to self determination, and you don`t call that a grievance?
``The human rights violations that occur while India fights these terrorists are regrettable but also inevitable.``
So in that vein, I can also say that the freedom fighters` violent revolts are regrettable but inevitable.
``Terrorists are an invisible enemy. They hide like roaches and kill with impunity. While fighting them, it is inevitable that some (nay, many) innocent people will suffer.``
The Indian doesn`t hide but kills endlessly, while fighting them, it is inevitable that the Kashmir backed freedom fighters might kill some innocent people. How does that sound? You yourself were so against violence earlier, and now you`re condoning it as long as the Indian army is carrying it through?
``If Pak really cared, it should stop abetting and sponsoring terrorism from across the border.``
If Indian really cared, it would have stopped the terrorism of it`s army in Kashmir and given Kashmiris their rights and freedom.
``India is prepared to go to war for Kashmir. If it results in exchange of nuclear weapons, so be it.``
Whereever there is oppression, the oppressed will do anything to gain freedom from the oppressors. Remember learning about the American Revolution? It`s the same struggle in Kashmir, but in an obviously smaller scale.
In the case of Kashmir, India is the oppressor, and the only way to stop the blind oppressor is by revolting. And that is what the Kashmiris are doing, backed by Pakistanis or not.
``A little introspection by anyone with commonsense will reveal that Kashmir policy has been disastrous for Pak. Pak today is at the mercy of international monetory agencies through which USA keeps a tight tab on Pak.``
Yes it has, but partly so. Pakistan is also in the hole because of corrupt leadership and government. It is also suffering because of the rise of fundamentalists who would rather go back in history than move with the times.
``Do the Pakistanis feel good when some westerners tell them what to do?``
No but to tell you the truth, westerners are telling all third world countries what to do these days. If the West asked India to do something right this minute, India would go down on it`s knees and say, `yes sahib.` We`re nothing compared to developed nations. Thus the subservient attitudes. There is no choice.
``Is the hatred of India so much in Pak that they are willing to take every other form of SH!T only to keep an appearance that they are giving India a tough time?``
Is the hatred of Pakistanis and Kashmiris so much in India that they are willing to see people die every day?
``Many good Pakistani commentators and journalists have clearly stated that Kashmir policy of mini-war in Kashmir by Pak through militants has been disastrous.``
It doesn`t take a rocket scientist to figure that out.
``Today, Talibanists and militants belonging to Taliban have come to haunt Pakistani rulers. Again,this pro-Taliban has been encouraged in order to rule Afghanistan by proxy as a means of
achieving strategic depth vis-a-vis India. Was this a correct policy? Obviously not.``
Wouldn`t you try to have some diplomatic relations with a neighboring country when the other side of the border has a hateful enemy (India). It`s a simple political/military strategy. However unfruitful, Pakistan had no choice but to recognize Afghanistan. To be stuck in the middle of two enemies would be disastrous don`t you think? But guess what, with the way that things are going between Afghanistan and Pakistan right now, Pakistan WILL be stuck between two enemies.
But we couldn`t help it.
``Today, Pakistan is the only country to have official links to Taliban. It tries to cling on to Taliban in the hope that it can salvage an impossible situation.``
Read what I have said above. Even a first grader would understand that it`s not a good thing to be sitting in the middle of two bullies everyday.
``It is being led kicking and screaming by the world community. Is this a good spectacle for most Pakistanis?``
Oh pleaseeeeeeeee, that`s so immature. Typical Indian mockery at it`s worst. Most of the world including most of Pakistan is shocked by the horrible tragedies that occurred on September 11th. Pakistan lost 200 people of it`s own in the World Trade Center. Everybody`s hurting. CNN is aired in Pakistan. The majority of people in Pakistan saw the world trade centers go down along with the world.
``The real culprit is your Army. It has created hatred against India and benefitted in the process.``
And your government and army are angels? Where does hatred for Pakistan come from in India? By your media, your government, and your army. Check your own purse before delving into Pakistan`s.
``Today, one person is deciding the fate of 130 million Pakistanis. Instead of creating a consensus on policies, policies encouraged for 20 years and more, however wrong they may be (i am talking about pro-Taliban policies here)are being discarded at the drop of a hat.``
The Taleban hasn`t been in power for 20 years. What are you talking about? As far as the military ruler, Pakistan was and is an unidealistic political state. We do the best with what we have. Our leaders have surpassed the levels of corruption. The bloodless military coup
was the only way to stamp out Nawaz Shareef`s exceeding corruption.
``What about discarding your time-tested friend China. How do you think China will feel about the way Mushy boy is suc.king upto Uncle Sam?``
Are you guys jealous that Vajpayee`s `suc.king up` isn`t going anywhere? India went crazy trying to suc.k up to the US the minute the first plane hit the first tower. But that`s beside the point. President Musharraf realized the magnitude of the situation and thus acted accordingly. Any country would do the same.
``When all this is over and if Pak manages to come out unscathed, do you think China will still be a strategic partner.``
You think China is unsupportive of the US`s war against terrorism? They may not say so vehemently, but they are with the world right now.
And the world is with the US. There is no question about Pak/China relations at this point. It is childish to even bring that up. And Indians are acting pretty childish right now.
``At worst of times (when Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan)India did not turn its back on Soviet Union, however wrong that policy of invasion was. There was a consensus at home and we could tell the Americans and the rest who opposed us to take a hike. That is the strenght of democracy.``
NOPE, that is the stregth of FEAR. India was FEARFUL of the Soviet Union. Remember, the Soviet Union was the second most powerful nation in the world back then. And it was in close proximity with India. Now if I were India, I`d be pretty scared to upset the great neighbor too. It`s pretty stupid of you to turn that into an `India the great democracy` situation. It`s pathetic.
#501 Posted by rsridhar on October 6, 2001 2:56:12 pm
Re:Reply #: 514
shima,
Thanks for your post. I agree with it completely.
Sridhar
shima,
Thanks for your post. I agree with it completely.
Sridhar
#499 Posted by anNy on October 6, 2001 2:56:12 pm
shammisahab:
``Can you see any hope of changing minds of Scout, Sarwari, YLH, Ali1, Akash, Gowardhan? I guess Jay and Rsaxena are too old to change``
what man..you saying im beyond hope also? or godforbid, that i dont count at all?:( im feeling very left out
``Can you see any hope of changing minds of Scout, Sarwari, YLH, Ali1, Akash, Gowardhan? I guess Jay and Rsaxena are too old to change``
what man..you saying im beyond hope also? or godforbid, that i dont count at all?:( im feeling very left out
#498 Posted by Zahra on October 6, 2001 2:10:15 pm
RSridhar:
First of all, I have never read you on Chowk(as far as I remember). Secondly, I have never read Scout dissecting someone`s post line by line. I was impressed :) I personally have no patience for that. My intent was not to condemn or negate the essence of your argument; therefore, do not become sensitive on that end. OK!
On your question regarding Kashmir`s Issue: I have hardly `ever` followed `any` arguments on Chowk on Kashmir. It was way back when I ever did that. Personally, I have NO interest in Kashmir. I am sick and tired of this land that has become a curse(hanging sword) for Pakistan since 1947. We have internal issues and matters that require far more attention than looking into Sri-Nagar and elsewhere. I had to read the details of Kashmir`s Issue so many times for my school, college and university exams that I simply abhor this subject and anything associated with it. Please also keep in mind that all Pakistanis do not have the same opinion on the matters of Kashmir. The ones who have families in that area or have had families who`ve migrated from there in the recent past, their attachment and affiliation will be very different from others. This is a natural human reaction. You cannot generalize that for the whole country.
On the other hand, the fact that many Muslims have died in Kashmir and have been mistreated will provoke Muslims from all over the world to comment on the issues prevalent there. Should they be worried about it? This aspect hit me very hard just recently(kind of a revelation) after analyzing the current series of events - The whole world is linked together; you are no longer a stand-alone entity. This is a very deep concept to look into. I do not want to delve into it any more than I need to, but I had to mention why there will be intervention in Kashmir`s matters.
To me, it`s mere fitnaa(bone of contention)!!!
Late Hafeez Jalandhri(my very darling poet)wrote his sentiments on being in Kashmir, and that`s the most beautiful picture one can find , if one has not visited the place. But on the other hand, this beauty is a plain curse. I hate to hurt anyone`s feelings, but I cannot help expressing my disgust as well. I do not even like migrations! Either people should migrate fully to another place or they should not. In the former case, at least they do not have any family or relatives left behind; whereas, in the latter case, they do not have the worries of the former case. Well, this is a very naive thought on my end! If I rationalize my own argument, then what about the friends? the land? the associations? and etc...It`s a web of complexity. I dislike it like anything.
On a last note: There are certain battles on Chowk that can be fought based on logical arguments or deductions or whatever; whereas, there are other subjects that cannot be resolved just by outwitting each other or by cross-examination. Doing any of the aforementioned, will never put the subject to rest.
If the cause of an issue was not logical or based on a principle then how can you imagine its resolution to be that way ?
That`s it from my end.
PS: I would like to put this subject to rest. I am too sensitive to think about the attrocities and comment on them as an observer. It takes a lot out of me to do that. Sorry, I am not in that mood!
Take Care.
First of all, I have never read you on Chowk(as far as I remember). Secondly, I have never read Scout dissecting someone`s post line by line. I was impressed :) I personally have no patience for that. My intent was not to condemn or negate the essence of your argument; therefore, do not become sensitive on that end. OK!
On your question regarding Kashmir`s Issue: I have hardly `ever` followed `any` arguments on Chowk on Kashmir. It was way back when I ever did that. Personally, I have NO interest in Kashmir. I am sick and tired of this land that has become a curse(hanging sword) for Pakistan since 1947. We have internal issues and matters that require far more attention than looking into Sri-Nagar and elsewhere. I had to read the details of Kashmir`s Issue so many times for my school, college and university exams that I simply abhor this subject and anything associated with it. Please also keep in mind that all Pakistanis do not have the same opinion on the matters of Kashmir. The ones who have families in that area or have had families who`ve migrated from there in the recent past, their attachment and affiliation will be very different from others. This is a natural human reaction. You cannot generalize that for the whole country.
On the other hand, the fact that many Muslims have died in Kashmir and have been mistreated will provoke Muslims from all over the world to comment on the issues prevalent there. Should they be worried about it? This aspect hit me very hard just recently(kind of a revelation) after analyzing the current series of events - The whole world is linked together; you are no longer a stand-alone entity. This is a very deep concept to look into. I do not want to delve into it any more than I need to, but I had to mention why there will be intervention in Kashmir`s matters.
To me, it`s mere fitnaa(bone of contention)!!!
Late Hafeez Jalandhri(my very darling poet)wrote his sentiments on being in Kashmir, and that`s the most beautiful picture one can find , if one has not visited the place. But on the other hand, this beauty is a plain curse. I hate to hurt anyone`s feelings, but I cannot help expressing my disgust as well. I do not even like migrations! Either people should migrate fully to another place or they should not. In the former case, at least they do not have any family or relatives left behind; whereas, in the latter case, they do not have the worries of the former case. Well, this is a very naive thought on my end! If I rationalize my own argument, then what about the friends? the land? the associations? and etc...It`s a web of complexity. I dislike it like anything.
On a last note: There are certain battles on Chowk that can be fought based on logical arguments or deductions or whatever; whereas, there are other subjects that cannot be resolved just by outwitting each other or by cross-examination. Doing any of the aforementioned, will never put the subject to rest.
If the cause of an issue was not logical or based on a principle then how can you imagine its resolution to be that way ?
That`s it from my end.
PS: I would like to put this subject to rest. I am too sensitive to think about the attrocities and comment on them as an observer. It takes a lot out of me to do that. Sorry, I am not in that mood!
Take Care.
#497 Posted by nasah on October 6, 2001 1:25:47 am
Dear scout:
You write:
``When have Muslims, in the twentieth century committed mass genocide of Christians..``(scout)
Just a reminder -- would you call mass killings of Christians Armenians by Muslim Turks -- a genocide?
In the Hammam of mass murders -- everybody got naked once or twice -- including us Muslims.
You write:
``When have Muslims, in the twentieth century committed mass genocide of Christians..``(scout)
Just a reminder -- would you call mass killings of Christians Armenians by Muslim Turks -- a genocide?
In the Hammam of mass murders -- everybody got naked once or twice -- including us Muslims.
#496 Posted by Shima on October 6, 2001 1:25:47 am
Sridhar, Kerallite and other south Indian muslims are at least a notch more educated than their north Indian counterparts, and that is why they are more open to universal principles. That is where as Indians we should all try more. That is where I always feel bad when educated muslim like Farzana Versey wastes her time on non-issues. Today Megawati Sukaranaputri has made a statement stating that many pressing issues in Indonesia are overlooked by the fundamentalists and creating a rift in the society by raising a false alarm on claiming how islam is in danger.
It is actually whole humanity is in danger, if really a clash between civilisations occurs.
On a different note, I agree with some of the interactors who are lamenting on the standard of Chowk going down. You do not see interactions from many of the learned Chowkies any more. I have been in Chowk for the last three years, and got into habit of openeing it everyday despite my busy schedule, but am disappointed to see only personal attacks and deep sense of hate between Indians and Pakistanis, hindus and muslims. Can you see any hope of changing minds of Scout, Sarwari, YLH, Ali1, Akash, Gowardhan? I guess Jay and Rsaxena are too old to change :)
It is actually whole humanity is in danger, if really a clash between civilisations occurs.
On a different note, I agree with some of the interactors who are lamenting on the standard of Chowk going down. You do not see interactions from many of the learned Chowkies any more. I have been in Chowk for the last three years, and got into habit of openeing it everyday despite my busy schedule, but am disappointed to see only personal attacks and deep sense of hate between Indians and Pakistanis, hindus and muslims. Can you see any hope of changing minds of Scout, Sarwari, YLH, Ali1, Akash, Gowardhan? I guess Jay and Rsaxena are too old to change :)
#495 Posted by sigalph235 on October 5, 2001 9:59:18 pm
re nasah 493
No kidding. History recalls that Milosevic`s closest allies were Libya and Iraq(India was a friend too)while it was Bob Dole and Baroness Thatcher fighting in their own countries to lift the embargo against Bosnia`s legitimate government. Some place the `ummah` has to criticize the West for Bosnia`s misery!
No kidding. History recalls that Milosevic`s closest allies were Libya and Iraq(India was a friend too)while it was Bob Dole and Baroness Thatcher fighting in their own countries to lift the embargo against Bosnia`s legitimate government. Some place the `ummah` has to criticize the West for Bosnia`s misery!
#494 Posted by MaheshG on October 5, 2001 9:59:18 pm
Scout #498,
I asked you about Pakistan backing terrorism and the answer I get is both India and Pakistan should get out of Kashmir.
So, basically what you are saying is that as long as India occupies Kashmir you will keep on killing little Kashmiri school girls.
Regarding my #491
You accused RSaxena, Gowardhan and Jay of attacking all Muslims. As far as I can recall they have laid the blame for WTC only at Pakistan`s doorstep. So, where did you get this idea that they were attacking Muslims?
#493 Posted by rsridhar on October 5, 2001 9:59:18 pm
Re:Reply #: 494
Zahra,
Though your post does not deserve a reply, let me just say we are interacting here not to gain any brownie points but to put forward our views. My views are very clear cut and i voice them without bothering about the ``eenth ka jawab pathar me`` types. I believe policy of jehad by Pakistani rulers in Kashmir is wrong, that Army in Pak is the real culprit and should be shown the door and democracy ushered and so on. I pity those Pakistanis who have not had the time or the inclination to introspect to see if 50 years of anti-India policies have done any good for Paksitan. If you or scout feel you are at this intellectual level of introspection, then feel free to interact with me. Otherwise, do not bother.
Sridhar
Zahra,
Though your post does not deserve a reply, let me just say we are interacting here not to gain any brownie points but to put forward our views. My views are very clear cut and i voice them without bothering about the ``eenth ka jawab pathar me`` types. I believe policy of jehad by Pakistani rulers in Kashmir is wrong, that Army in Pak is the real culprit and should be shown the door and democracy ushered and so on. I pity those Pakistanis who have not had the time or the inclination to introspect to see if 50 years of anti-India policies have done any good for Paksitan. If you or scout feel you are at this intellectual level of introspection, then feel free to interact with me. Otherwise, do not bother.
Sridhar
#492 Posted by rsridhar on October 5, 2001 9:59:18 pm
Re:Reply #: 488
fawad79,
Criticism of countries rulers and policies does not amount to hatred. That is the first lesson in democracy.
I have spoken against present Pakistani military ruler as well as many of his policies but never have i passed any personal comments against anyone because he belongs to a country or a religion. People like ylh have posted hateful remarks against hindu religion or India just because they did not like some Indians on the chowk.
Sridhar
fawad79,
Criticism of countries rulers and policies does not amount to hatred. That is the first lesson in democracy.
I have spoken against present Pakistani military ruler as well as many of his policies but never have i passed any personal comments against anyone because he belongs to a country or a religion. People like ylh have posted hateful remarks against hindu religion or India just because they did not like some Indians on the chowk.
Sridhar
#491 Posted by rsridhar on October 5, 2001 9:59:18 pm
Re:Reply #: 485
RSaxena,
It is amazing to see how deluded may Pakistanis are. They firmly believe that Mushy as a dictator is good. No Pakistani on board has ever criticised the terrorists in Kashmir. So, i am led to believe they actually believe violence will work in Kashmir or anywhere. That is delusion # 2 for you. The only thing that seems to unite pakistani clergy and its rulers is anti-India hatred. I was shocked to read that the only thing that convinced the mullahs in Pak to side with Musharraf when he agreed to co-operate with USA was his argument that if Pak did not help then vily hindus will and will become a frontline state. The only things that keep my hope of closer ties between the 2 countries alive are people like Tahmed and bilal ahmed.
Sridhar
RSaxena,
It is amazing to see how deluded may Pakistanis are. They firmly believe that Mushy as a dictator is good. No Pakistani on board has ever criticised the terrorists in Kashmir. So, i am led to believe they actually believe violence will work in Kashmir or anywhere. That is delusion # 2 for you. The only thing that seems to unite pakistani clergy and its rulers is anti-India hatred. I was shocked to read that the only thing that convinced the mullahs in Pak to side with Musharraf when he agreed to co-operate with USA was his argument that if Pak did not help then vily hindus will and will become a frontline state. The only things that keep my hope of closer ties between the 2 countries alive are people like Tahmed and bilal ahmed.
Sridhar
#490 Posted by rsridhar on October 5, 2001 9:59:18 pm
Re:Kashmir, Taliban and other matters
scout,
I read your post only now,hence the dealy in replying to your post.
We are going round in circles. Everyone needs to realise that violence in all forms is bad. Violence in Kashmir was started by terrorists or jehadis or freedom fighters whatever name you wish to label them by. Remember, no country will sit by and watch violence unleashed on its territories. This holds true for Srilanka (against LTTE, Russia (in Chechanya)as well as India (in Kashmir). Tamilians in Srilanka had a groundswell of sympathies (in India, especially among the Indian Tamils) when they started their epic struggle against oppression by the Sinhala majority. Soon this struggle turned violent. Tamil terrorists started targetting innocent people. One of India`s P.M was killed by them. That is when a kind of revulsion spread among the Tamilians in Tamil Nadu. I was present in Madras (where i was doing M.D)when Rajiv Gandhi was assasinated. Most people felt enraged and ashamed at what had happened.
Today, nobody has any sympathies for LTTE though almost all will concede that Srilankan Tamil`s struggle is for genuine grievances. By resorting to violence, Tamilians in Srilanka have lost any claim to legitimacy. Kashmiri terrorists are no different. Kashmiri aspirations are genuine. There is no reason to believe such aspirations cannot be fulfilled within the framework of India`s constitution. Other states like Bihar, Orissa have worse economic problems but they have not resorted to a vilent struggle against the center. Hence, the problem is not the grievance itself but the way it is being addressed in Kashmir. The human rights violations that occur while India fights these terrorists are regrettable but also inevitable. Terrorists are an invisible enemy. They hide like roaches and kill with impunity. While fighting them, it is inevitable that some (nay, many) innocent people will suffer. If Pak really cared, it should stop abetting and sponsoring terrorism from across the border. It will not do so for obvious reasons and so the struggle will continue until one party wins convincingly.
India is prepared to go to war for Kashmir. If it results in exchange of nuclear weapons, so be it. It will come to this if terrorism goes out of hand in Kashmir, or spreads to wider area in India causing incalculable damage. A little introspection by anyone with commonsense will reveal that Kashmir policy has been disastrous for Pak. Pak today is at the mercy of international monetory agencies through which USA keeps a tight tab on Pak. Do the Pakistanis feel good when some westerners tell them what to do? Is the hatred of India so much in Pak that they are willing to take every other form of SH!T only to keep an appearance that they are giving India a tough time? Many good Pakistani commentators and journalists have clearly stated that Kashmir policy of mini-war in Kashmir by Pak through militants has been disastrous.
Today, Talibanists and militants belonging to Taliban have come to haunt Pakistani rulers. Again,this pro-Taliban has been encouraged in order to rule Afghanistan by proxy as a means of achieving strategic depth vis-a-vis India. Was this a correct policy? Obviously not. Today, Pakistan is the only country to have official links to Taliban. It tries to cling on to Taliban in the hope that it can salvage an impossible situation. It is being led kicking and screaming by the world community. Is this a good spectacle for most Pakistanis?
The real culprit is your Army. It has created hatred against India and benefitted in the process. Today, one person is deciding the fate of 130 million Pakistanis. Instead of creating a consensus on policies, policies encouraged for 20 years and more, however wrong they may be (i am talking about pro-Taliban policies here)are being discarded at the drop of a hat. This is not something that anyone can be proud about. Of course, Pakistan has no choice but to co-operate.
What about discarding your time-tested friend China. How do you think China will feel about the way Mushy boy is sucking upto Uncle Sam? When all this is over and if Pak manages to come out unscathed, do you think China will still be a strategic partner. At worst of times (when Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan)India did not turn its back on Soviet Union, however wrong that policy of invasion was. There was a consensus at home and we could tell the Americans and the rest who opposed us to take a hike. That is the strenght of democracy. That is what Pak lacks today.
Summary of what i have said above:
1. Violence as a policy is wrong, however justified grievances might be.
2. Consensus building is necessary on vital national policies. For consensus to hold, democracy is vital. You cannot trust a dictator in a situation like this.
3. Democracy gives a nation the inner strength needed to follow through important policy decisions during turbulent times. If pakistani rulers thought pro-Taliban policies were of national interest, they certainly gave it up with great haste. If it was a wrong policy (as most people the world over believe it was), why have it in the first place?
I shall reply about OBL and other matters in another post.
Sridhar
scout,
I read your post only now,hence the dealy in replying to your post.
We are going round in circles. Everyone needs to realise that violence in all forms is bad. Violence in Kashmir was started by terrorists or jehadis or freedom fighters whatever name you wish to label them by. Remember, no country will sit by and watch violence unleashed on its territories. This holds true for Srilanka (against LTTE, Russia (in Chechanya)as well as India (in Kashmir). Tamilians in Srilanka had a groundswell of sympathies (in India, especially among the Indian Tamils) when they started their epic struggle against oppression by the Sinhala majority. Soon this struggle turned violent. Tamil terrorists started targetting innocent people. One of India`s P.M was killed by them. That is when a kind of revulsion spread among the Tamilians in Tamil Nadu. I was present in Madras (where i was doing M.D)when Rajiv Gandhi was assasinated. Most people felt enraged and ashamed at what had happened.
Today, nobody has any sympathies for LTTE though almost all will concede that Srilankan Tamil`s struggle is for genuine grievances. By resorting to violence, Tamilians in Srilanka have lost any claim to legitimacy. Kashmiri terrorists are no different. Kashmiri aspirations are genuine. There is no reason to believe such aspirations cannot be fulfilled within the framework of India`s constitution. Other states like Bihar, Orissa have worse economic problems but they have not resorted to a vilent struggle against the center. Hence, the problem is not the grievance itself but the way it is being addressed in Kashmir. The human rights violations that occur while India fights these terrorists are regrettable but also inevitable. Terrorists are an invisible enemy. They hide like roaches and kill with impunity. While fighting them, it is inevitable that some (nay, many) innocent people will suffer. If Pak really cared, it should stop abetting and sponsoring terrorism from across the border. It will not do so for obvious reasons and so the struggle will continue until one party wins convincingly.
India is prepared to go to war for Kashmir. If it results in exchange of nuclear weapons, so be it. It will come to this if terrorism goes out of hand in Kashmir, or spreads to wider area in India causing incalculable damage. A little introspection by anyone with commonsense will reveal that Kashmir policy has been disastrous for Pak. Pak today is at the mercy of international monetory agencies through which USA keeps a tight tab on Pak. Do the Pakistanis feel good when some westerners tell them what to do? Is the hatred of India so much in Pak that they are willing to take every other form of SH!T only to keep an appearance that they are giving India a tough time? Many good Pakistani commentators and journalists have clearly stated that Kashmir policy of mini-war in Kashmir by Pak through militants has been disastrous.
Today, Talibanists and militants belonging to Taliban have come to haunt Pakistani rulers. Again,this pro-Taliban has been encouraged in order to rule Afghanistan by proxy as a means of achieving strategic depth vis-a-vis India. Was this a correct policy? Obviously not. Today, Pakistan is the only country to have official links to Taliban. It tries to cling on to Taliban in the hope that it can salvage an impossible situation. It is being led kicking and screaming by the world community. Is this a good spectacle for most Pakistanis?
The real culprit is your Army. It has created hatred against India and benefitted in the process. Today, one person is deciding the fate of 130 million Pakistanis. Instead of creating a consensus on policies, policies encouraged for 20 years and more, however wrong they may be (i am talking about pro-Taliban policies here)are being discarded at the drop of a hat. This is not something that anyone can be proud about. Of course, Pakistan has no choice but to co-operate.
What about discarding your time-tested friend China. How do you think China will feel about the way Mushy boy is sucking upto Uncle Sam? When all this is over and if Pak manages to come out unscathed, do you think China will still be a strategic partner. At worst of times (when Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan)India did not turn its back on Soviet Union, however wrong that policy of invasion was. There was a consensus at home and we could tell the Americans and the rest who opposed us to take a hike. That is the strenght of democracy. That is what Pak lacks today.
Summary of what i have said above:
1. Violence as a policy is wrong, however justified grievances might be.
2. Consensus building is necessary on vital national policies. For consensus to hold, democracy is vital. You cannot trust a dictator in a situation like this.
3. Democracy gives a nation the inner strength needed to follow through important policy decisions during turbulent times. If pakistani rulers thought pro-Taliban policies were of national interest, they certainly gave it up with great haste. If it was a wrong policy (as most people the world over believe it was), why have it in the first place?
I shall reply about OBL and other matters in another post.
Sridhar
#489 Posted by rsridhar on October 5, 2001 9:59:18 pm
Re:Kashmir, Taliban and other matters
scout,
I read your post only now,hence the dealy in replying to your post.
We are going round in circles. Everyone needs to realise that violence in all forms is bad. Violence in Kashmir was started by terrorists or jehadis or freedom fighters whatever name you wish to label them by. Remember, no country will sit by and watch violence unleashed on its territories. This holds true for Srilanka (against LTTE, Russia (in Chechanya)as well as India (in Kashmir). Tamilians in Srilanka had a groundswell of sympathies (in India, especially among the Indian Tamils) when they started their epic struggle against oppression by the Sinhala majority. Soon this struggle turned violent. Tamil terrorists started targetting innocent people. One of India`s P.M was killed by them. That is when a kind of revulsion spread among the Tamilians in Tamil Nadu. I was present in Madras (where i was doing M.D)when Rajiv Gandhi was assasinated. Most people felt enraged and ashamed at what had happened.
Today, nobody has any sympathies for LTTE though almost all will concede that Srilankan Tamil`s struggle is for genuine grievances. By resorting to violence, Tamilians in Srilanka have lost any claim to legitimacy. Kashmiri terrorists are no different. Kashmiri aspirations are genuine. There is no reason to believe such aspirations cannot be fulfilled within the framework of India`s constitution. Other states like Bihar, Orissa have worse economic problems but they have not resorted to a vilent struggle against the center. Hence, the problem is not the grievance itself but the way it is being addressed in Kashmir. The human rights violations that occur while India fights these terrorists are regrettable but also inevitable. Terrorists are an invisible enemy. They hide like roaches and kill with impunity. While fighting them, it is inevitable that some (nay, many) innocent people will suffer. If Pak really cared, it should stop abetting and sponsoring terrorism from across the border. It will not do so for obvious reasons and so the struggle will continue until one party wins convincingly.
India is prepared to go to war for Kashmir. If it results in exchange of nuclear weapons, so be it. It will come to this if terrorism goes out of hand in Kashmir, or spreads to wider area in India causing incalculable damage. A little introspection by anyone with commonsense will reveal that Kashmir policy has been disastrous for Pak. Pak today is at the mercy of international monetory agencies through which USA keeps a tight tab on Pak. Do the Pakistanis feel good when some westerners tell them what to do? Is the hatred of India so much in Pak that they are willing to take every other form of SH!T only to keep an appearance that they are giving India a tough time? Many good Pakistani commentators and journalists have clearly stated that Kashmir policy of mini-war in Kashmir by Pak through militants has been disastrous.
Today, Talibanists and militants belonging to Taliban have come to haunt Pakistani rulers. Again,this pro-Taliban has been encouraged in order to rule Afghanistan by proxy as a means of achieving strategic depth vis-a-vis India. Was this a correct policy? Obviously not. Today, Pakistan is the only country to have official links to Taliban. It tries to cling on to Taliban in the hope that it can salvage an impossible situation. It is being led kicking and screaming by the world community. Is this a good spectacle for most Pakistanis?
The real culprit is your Army. It has created hatred against India and benefitted in the process. Today, one person is deciding the fate of 130 million Pakistanis. Instead of creating a consensus on policies, policies encouraged for 20 years and more, however wrong they may be (i am talking about pro-Taliban policies here)are being discarded at the drop of a hat. This is not something that anyone can be proud about. Of course, Pakistan has no choice but to co-operate.
What about discarding your time-tested friend China. How do you think China will feel about the way Mushy boy is sucking upto Uncle Sam? When all this is over and if Pak manages to come out unscathed, do you think China will still be a strategic partner. At worst of times (when Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan)India did not turn its back on Soviet Union, however wrong that policy of invasion was. There was a consensus at home and we could tell the Americans and the rest who opposed us to take a hike. That is the strenght of democracy. That is what Pak lacks today.
Summary of what i have said above:
1. Violence as a policy is wrong, however justified grievances might be.
2. Consensus building is necessary on vital national policies. For consensus to hold, democracy is vital. You cannot trust a dictator in a situation like this.
3. Democracy gives a nation the inner strength needed to follow through important policy decisions during turbulent times. If pakistani rulers thought pro-Taliban policies were of national interest, they certainly gave it up with great haste. If it was a wrong policy (as most people the world over believe it was), why have it in the first place?
I shall reply about OBL and other matters in another post.
Sridhar
scout,
I read your post only now,hence the dealy in replying to your post.
We are going round in circles. Everyone needs to realise that violence in all forms is bad. Violence in Kashmir was started by terrorists or jehadis or freedom fighters whatever name you wish to label them by. Remember, no country will sit by and watch violence unleashed on its territories. This holds true for Srilanka (against LTTE, Russia (in Chechanya)as well as India (in Kashmir). Tamilians in Srilanka had a groundswell of sympathies (in India, especially among the Indian Tamils) when they started their epic struggle against oppression by the Sinhala majority. Soon this struggle turned violent. Tamil terrorists started targetting innocent people. One of India`s P.M was killed by them. That is when a kind of revulsion spread among the Tamilians in Tamil Nadu. I was present in Madras (where i was doing M.D)when Rajiv Gandhi was assasinated. Most people felt enraged and ashamed at what had happened.
Today, nobody has any sympathies for LTTE though almost all will concede that Srilankan Tamil`s struggle is for genuine grievances. By resorting to violence, Tamilians in Srilanka have lost any claim to legitimacy. Kashmiri terrorists are no different. Kashmiri aspirations are genuine. There is no reason to believe such aspirations cannot be fulfilled within the framework of India`s constitution. Other states like Bihar, Orissa have worse economic problems but they have not resorted to a vilent struggle against the center. Hence, the problem is not the grievance itself but the way it is being addressed in Kashmir. The human rights violations that occur while India fights these terrorists are regrettable but also inevitable. Terrorists are an invisible enemy. They hide like roaches and kill with impunity. While fighting them, it is inevitable that some (nay, many) innocent people will suffer. If Pak really cared, it should stop abetting and sponsoring terrorism from across the border. It will not do so for obvious reasons and so the struggle will continue until one party wins convincingly.
India is prepared to go to war for Kashmir. If it results in exchange of nuclear weapons, so be it. It will come to this if terrorism goes out of hand in Kashmir, or spreads to wider area in India causing incalculable damage. A little introspection by anyone with commonsense will reveal that Kashmir policy has been disastrous for Pak. Pak today is at the mercy of international monetory agencies through which USA keeps a tight tab on Pak. Do the Pakistanis feel good when some westerners tell them what to do? Is the hatred of India so much in Pak that they are willing to take every other form of SH!T only to keep an appearance that they are giving India a tough time? Many good Pakistani commentators and journalists have clearly stated that Kashmir policy of mini-war in Kashmir by Pak through militants has been disastrous.
Today, Talibanists and militants belonging to Taliban have come to haunt Pakistani rulers. Again,this pro-Taliban has been encouraged in order to rule Afghanistan by proxy as a means of achieving strategic depth vis-a-vis India. Was this a correct policy? Obviously not. Today, Pakistan is the only country to have official links to Taliban. It tries to cling on to Taliban in the hope that it can salvage an impossible situation. It is being led kicking and screaming by the world community. Is this a good spectacle for most Pakistanis?
The real culprit is your Army. It has created hatred against India and benefitted in the process. Today, one person is deciding the fate of 130 million Pakistanis. Instead of creating a consensus on policies, policies encouraged for 20 years and more, however wrong they may be (i am talking about pro-Taliban policies here)are being discarded at the drop of a hat. This is not something that anyone can be proud about. Of course, Pakistan has no choice but to co-operate.
What about discarding your time-tested friend China. How do you think China will feel about the way Mushy boy is sucking upto Uncle Sam? When all this is over and if Pak manages to come out unscathed, do you think China will still be a strategic partner. At worst of times (when Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan)India did not turn its back on Soviet Union, however wrong that policy of invasion was. There was a consensus at home and we could tell the Americans and the rest who opposed us to take a hike. That is the strenght of democracy. That is what Pak lacks today.
Summary of what i have said above:
1. Violence as a policy is wrong, however justified grievances might be.
2. Consensus building is necessary on vital national policies. For consensus to hold, democracy is vital. You cannot trust a dictator in a situation like this.
3. Democracy gives a nation the inner strength needed to follow through important policy decisions during turbulent times. If pakistani rulers thought pro-Taliban policies were of national interest, they certainly gave it up with great haste. If it was a wrong policy (as most people the world over believe it was), why have it in the first place?
I shall reply about OBL and other matters in another post.
Sridhar
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