Violent Changes

Samina #95:

Thanks for the public service announcement; that was rather sharp of you to catch this person(s) numerous identities. Good one :) I for one, don`t even care anymore, these rantings are beyond sick and stupid.

Horribly below intellect and upto par with BS this person has no life, and one can only feel sorry for him/her, but then feel sorry only so much.

Regards,

Kiran

Ref saminashah #: 95

[The other designations are Aamir, Shah, Bapu, Deepika, Fatima, Faiza, Sadhna, Studebaker, Bhardwaj, Lajwanti and Brad Cruise.

This is a public service announcement. Thank you.]

Brad Cruise? Shitt Pitt is more like it.

Samina #95:

Thanks for the public service announcement; that was rather sharp of you to catch this person(s) numerous identities. Good one :) I for one, don`t even care anymore, these rantings are beyond sick and stupid.

Horribly below intellect and upto par with BS this person has no life, and one can only feel sorry for him/her, but then feel sorry only so much.

Regards,

Kiran

Re: Deepika/Shah/Bapu/Aamir/Biaaatch #113

Calm down, I`m sure there`s a willing dog somewhere for you. Or is it little boys from madrassah you are after?

Thanks Saminashah. For a time it was sort of fun to respond this moron, but even that is getting tiring so I am no longer doing so.

I would love to hear about that meeting. Please do write about it. Is this some kind of organization that one can join? Do let me know.

Jawahara,

You`re welcome.:) Sadna was my support system. As you see, our resident multiple personality case will get worse. I suggest that you not respond to him unless you are doing it for sport (but then I think having root canal is preferable to conversations with Mr. MPD). However, even if you choose to respond for sport or more altruistic reasons, this person will follow you around the boards, becoming progressively insulting and harrassing, esp. if you are female. Mr. MPD just doesn`t understand that this is considered inappropriate behavior, nor does he care-thats the pathological part. You are right, the level of composition is fairly consistant.

BTW, I just attended an anti-war South Asian-American planning committee which I will try to write about. A group of 150 lovely and brilliant Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, hetero and gay, doctors, lawyers, professors,labor organizers and artists all in one room. It was incredibly powerful. Let me know if you are interested in finding out about what we are doing.

regards!

Re: Deepika

``I have seen hindu boys like you .They go extra mile in wooing muslim girls like AICHA,& SMINASHAH,even though she has a busy muslim hubby ,`not spending much time with her` ,so see hankers for those above ``wah`` ``Wah`` ``Wah` tareef fron hindu hankering boys like you .``

And I have seen inbreds like you go the extra mile in wooing stray dogs in the neighborhood for some ``bhow bhow bhow`` tareef to bolster your damaged self esteem

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Nobody`s wooing anyone Deepika - this is what is called a FREE dialog and is considered V NORMAL. I suggest you take part in it too rather tahn sulking and feeling left out!! And in future pls leave my name out of your posts! Thkyou -

Jwahra stop depressing every body with your sissy tears.In bangladesh fight muslim women gave there lives like Fatimah (r.A,) & like Aeisha(r.A,) went out with men to face Pakistani Army.

Both your articles are nothing but Wailing wall of how much painfull & fearfull & Scared frightened,you are.If you are afraid of high rise & aeroplanes then you have succumbed to your faint heart .Derive inspiration from Islam & early muslims Fatimah & Aeisha

If you want to be informed of BEHIND THE SCENE actions of FBI,CIA,MOSSAD,Counter TERRORISM,ASSASINATION without tear or blinking of eyes of the same grand presidents whom Jery Farwell & Pat Robertson bless with New & altered polluted BIBLE ,IN THE NAME OF GOD,whom shamless sinner ,in public crying for GOD -hypocrites

http://geocities.com/americanterrorism/

Did i not say TERRORISM linked with U.S. Foreign POLICY ?

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/011004/6/bfeo.html



Women must work to temper U.S. `cowboy` response to terror crisis, says group

By STEPHEN THORNE



Click to enlarge photo

OTTAWA (CP) - Canadian women should focus on tempering America`s ``cowboy-inspired`` response to the terrorist attacks in the U.S. and push for justice through the courts, a major women`s group said Thursday.

The Canadian Women`s March Committee also defended the right of Sunera Thobani, a well-known feminist, to make a controversial link between the attacks and U.S. foreign policy. Thobani, former head of the National Action Committee on the Status of Women, told a conference on Tuesday that Canadian women should not be coerced into supporting a U.S. foreign policy that is ``soaked in blood.``

The March Committee emphasized that women have more pressing issues to address than blame.

``War is not the answer to the atrocious crime against humanity committed on Sept. 11, 2001,`` said the group, which says it represents a majority of women`s organizations across Canada.

NAC vice-president Denise Andrea Campbell said Thursday that Thobani broadened discussion on the issue and put some context to the attacks.

``We really support her right - and, actually, all Canadians` right - to ask: why is this happening?`` Campbell told a news conference.

``But on behalf of women across the country . . . we are certainly more interested in looking at the immediate issue at hand, which is: how do we respond to what has happened?``

The committee opposes what it calls U.S. President George W. Bush`s ``vengeful and war-mongering response`` to the attacks. It says the world should follow United Nations guidelines and seek justice in courts of law.

``We expect our governments to lead through compassion, justice and respect for the dignity of all people,`` said the committee declaration.

There is no justification for a full-scale military response to the attacks under UN-defined grounds of self-defence, said Andree Cote, director of law reform at the National Association of Women and the Law.

``It`s so very dangerous in times like this to have unilateral, cowboy-inspired actions that will create possibly a lot of deaths of innocent civilians and international unrest,`` said Cote.

Thobani, a women`s studies professor at University of British Columbia, called the United States ``the most dangerous and the most powerful global force unleashing horrific levels of violence`` in the world today.

Her remarks were condemned by politicians and others as outrageous.

Cote said the reaction to Thobani`s statements has been more troubling than the statements themselves.

``I think this is one of the reasons that we`re opposing war,`` said Cote.

``It creates a climate of intolerance; it creates a climate where basic civil liberties can be violated, where basic freedom of expression is put in jeopardy. We`re very worried by this type of thing.``

She said media and other responses to Thobani`s speech harkened back to the 1950s era of U.S. Senator Joseph McCarthy, who conducted a witchhunt for phantom communists, destroying many innocent lives in the process.

``We want to have a democratic discussion on how to solve this horrible crisis,`` said Cote.

Campbell described Canada`s response so far as an encouraging reinforcement of the country`s traditional values of humanitarianism and peace.

shankar #301: Thanks for the kind words.

As for my submitting articles, I have been helping out a close friend in a story he is writing. Chowk has kindly published the first three chapters. The fourth chapter was submitted a while back, but hasn`t shown up yet. That story will get into the depths of all these issues, including jehadis, in a much more detailed and entertaining manner, than anything I can write.

Let`s hope Chowk publishes his fourth chapter. Although, I think it seems like that may not happen.

Khushwant Singh is perhaps my favorite Indian writer. He was born in the village of Hadali. Which is in in heart of Pakistan Punjab`s rural belt, on the Mianwali-Sargodha road. I was stationed close to there, and used to pass by Khushwant`s birthplace weekly. Had I known it back then, I would have stopped by to pay homage. I am sure he could write in much more detail than me, about Pakistan`s feudal problems, since he was born in the feudal area.

Khushwant Singh, along with Ashwariya Rai, Daler Menhdi, Azim Premji and General Sam Mackenshaw (is he dead?) are the five Indians I would love to meet. For different reasons of course; I would like to go on a date with Azim Premji, discuss computers with Khushwant, literature with Daler Mehndi, talk military strategy with Ashwariya, and hear Mackenshaw sing (I may have gotten the interests mixed up, here :))

Interestingly Khushwant Singh and I have nearly identical solution for Indo-Pakistan`s Kashmir problem: i.e. POK goes to Pakistan, Ladakh and Jammu go to India, the Valley of Kashmir becomes independent within some sort of autonomous framwork between India and Pakistan. Interestingly, Mahatma Gandhi had a similar solution. Due to my Muzzafarabad domicile in POK, according to the Indian Constitution, I am actually an Indian. I have always wondered, why all us sane Indians like Khushwant, Gandhi, and myself keep coming up with identical solutions for the Kashmir problem :-)

Pakistan inherited a much more backwards society than India at partition. The area that became Pakistan was the boondocks of the Sub-Continent. Most Indians do not realize this; nor do many Pakistanis, infact. The only educated class of Pakistanis was the one that migrated from India. It indeed goes to the credit of Pakistanis that they brought themselves to the same level as India, and even passed it economically. within fifteen years (although India is now even or back ahead of Pakistan, economically).

Who will bell the cat? God knows. Anyone who gets into the position of belling the cat, realizes that joining the cat family is much more lucrative, and marries into it. A good example is Zia-ul-Haq`s son and Ayub Khans` son joining the power 4 nexus through alliance with feudal parties and marraiges, respectively.

Musharraf is doing his best, and his son doesn`t seem to be interested in joining the power 4 nexus. But Musharraf can only do so much, specially now that everyone from the religious right to the feudals are ganging up on him, since they know he is going to break the nexus as well as eliminate the religious extreme right (even traditional arch enemies hamidm and Urstruly are forming a coalition). And I don`t know how he is going to legitimize himself, without power 4 nexus taking all kinds of shots at him.

But hopefully now people understand why election after election, under the current system, is never going to solve Pakistan`s problems. It is just going to strengthen the feudals, and the power 4 nexus. That is why I oppose the system of democracy that currently exists in Pakistan. And that is why the feudals are this system`s biggest supporters. If fits their needs, perfectly.

I myself support Imran Khan`s party, and hope to be there during the elections, supporting one of his candidates. Unfortunately, Imran Khan`s party is completely out of the power 4 nexus, and hence cannot do much.

If the religious relatively moderate right like Qazi Hussein Ahmad`s Jamaat-i-Islami come into power, I am quite sure they will break the nexus completely. The nexus is sh//t scared of them, and their street power and fearlessness. The JI plans to completely alter the military, and tear apart the feudals. Their membership actually consists of lower middle class Pakistanis (non power 4 nexus members). However, since they are not part of the nexus in Pakistan, they never win elections, in rural Pakistan. And urban Pakistanis do not vote for them because urbanites in Pakistan dislike maulvis. Even more dangerous is the fact, that all religious right parties have so much baggage of their own, and such hypocritical leadership, and have such extremist views on many issues, that even though they will break the nexus, they may create even bigger problems for Pakistan.

The one party that has (had) the potential of breaking the nexus is (was) MQM of Karachi. It is the only powerful middle-class, educated (leadership consists of a lot of medical doctors and small business owners), liberal, non-power 4 nexus party in Pakistan. However, its leadership has lost its ways completely, and has turned the party into its own occupying force of urban Sindh. If MQM can get good leadership, and lose its paronoia that all non-Muhajirs are looking to destroy Muhajirs, it can spread to other urban centers of Pakistan, like Lahore. I would certainly become a big supporter. It could then unite urban Pakistan under one flag. At that point urban lower, middle and upper-middle class Pakistanis, as one force, could take out the powerful feudals. Currently, however urban Pakistan is divided amongst six or so different political parties (MQM, PML, PPP, ANP, Jammat-i-Islami, Tehrik-e-Insaaf, etc.).

Let`s see how much Musharraf can do, before the power 4 nexus takes him out; which will happen sooner or later. Luckily, unlike Zia`s son and Ayub Khan`s sons, Musharraf is not tempted to join this nexus, and hates their guts (except for the military part of the nexus, from which he currently draws his own power).

Neptune, see the demarcation line used by Shah, * is the same used by AVR. Who has time in the world to do that? Unless you are used to do things in certain ways. If Shah and Bapu are the same face then AVR got to be the same person. Also names like Arrested Development and AVR are the expressions of same mind, elaborate yet abstract.

Sorry AVR, although you took my side in the war with Bapu, I have doubts about you :).

Thanks saminashah, for the public service announcement.:-) I appreciate it.

Despite all the 12 different identities (the bats at twilight) this person is not smart enough to try and disguiuse his/her writing style. They are all equally incoherent, rambling, badly written posts.

Neptune

It is my pleasure! I personally liked your line; ``step on the toes of one, and the other eleven will start screaming...``

shima

this phenomena defies understanding. nonetheless, I think every new female Chowkwallah must be warned. Every week, someone should post a message on each board.

regards

shima #97

Hmmm no... A-V-R is too coherent to be 12-face.

Jawahara and Samina, audio-video-radio is another nick for the same person with 12 identities. This is really bizzare that one personality attacks another !!

saminashah #95

[but be warned, speak to one, and the rest will swarm all over you like bats at twillight]

Hey, that was great! Goes straight into my list of quotable quotes (to be passed off as my own later :) ).

#91

#92

#93

#94

Dont get me wrong i mourn death of 9-11 tragedy ,just as mine

BUT I DO THE BURNT ALIVE VIETNAMESE,KOREAN,NAPALM OVER PALESTENIANS HOUSE,STARVING IRAQI WOMEN & CHILDREN TOO

Those who were also father,sister,mother,sons & daughters but not repeatedly flashed every 5 mins for 3 weeks.Do our mind need repititons to FEEL?

Ever since the United States Army massacred 300 Lakotas in 1890, American

forces have intervened elsewhere around the globe 100 times. Indeed the

United States has sent troops abroad or militarily struck other countries`

territory 216 times since independence from Britain. Since 1945 the United

States has intervened in more than 20 countries throughout the world.

Since World War II, the United States actually dropped bombs on 23

countries. These include: China 1945-46, Korea 1950-53, China 1950-53,

Guatemala 1954, Indonesia 1958, Cuba 1959-60, Guatemala 1960, Congo 1964,

Peru 1965, Laos 1964-73, Vietnam 1961-73, Cambodia 1969-70, Guatemala

1967-69, Grenada 1983, Lebanon 1984, Libya 1986, El Salvador 1980s,

Nicaragua 1980s, Panama 1989, Iraq 1991-1999, Sudan 1998, Afghanistan 1998,

and Yugoslavia 1999.

Post World War II, the United States has also assisted in over 20 different

coups throughout the world, and the CIA was responsible for half a dozen

assassinations of political heads of state.

The following is a comprehensive summary of the imperialist strategy of the

United States over the span of the past century:

Argentina - 1890 - Troops sent to Buenos Aires to

protect business interests.

Chile - 1891 - Marines sent to Chile and clashed with

nationalist rebels.

Haiti - 1891 - American troops suppress a revolt by

Black workers on United States-claimed Navassa Island.

Hawaii - 1893 - Navy sent to Hawaii to overthrow the

independent kingdom - Hawaii annexed by the United

States.

Nicaragua - 1894 - Troops occupied Bluefields, a city

on the Caribbean Sea, for a month.

China - 1894-95 - Navy, Army, and Marines landed

during the Sino-Japanese War.

Korea - 1894-96 - Troops kept in Seoul during the war.

Panama - 1895 - Army, Navy, and Marines landed in the

port city of Corinto.

China - 1894-1900 - Troops occupied China during the

Boxer Rebellion.

Philippines - 1898-1910 - Navy and Army troops landed

after the Philippines fell during the Spanish-American

War; 600,000 Filipinos were killed.

Cuba - 1898-1902 - Troops seized Cuba in the

Spanish-American War; the United States still

maintains troops at Guantanamo Bay today.

Puerto Rico - 1898 - present - Troops seized Puerto

Rico in the Spanish-American War and still occupy

Puerto Rico today.

Nicaragua - 1898 - Marines landed at the port of San

Juan del Sur.

Samoa - 1899 - Troops landed as a result over the

battle for succession to the throne.

Panama - 1901-14 - Navy supported the revolution when

Panama claimed independence from Colombia. American

troops have occupied the Canal Zone since 1901 when

construction for the canal began.

Honduras - 1903 - Marines landed to intervene during a

revolution.

Dominican Rep 1903-04 - Troops landed to protect

American interests during a revolution.

Korea - 1904-05 - Marines landed during the

Russo-Japanese War.

Cuba - 1906-09 - Troops landed during an election.

Nicaragua - 1907 - Troops landed and a protectorate

was set up.

Honduras - 1907 - Marines landed during Honduras` war

with Nicaragua.

Panama - 1908 - Marines sent in during Panama`s

election.

Nicaragua - 1910 - Marines landed for a second time in

Bluefields and Corinto.

Honduras - 1911 - Troops sent in to protect American

interests during Honduras` civil war.

China - 1911-41 - Navy and troops sent to China during

continuous flare-ups.

Cuba - 1912 - Troops sent in to protect American

interests in Havana.

Panama - 1912 - Marines landed during Panama`s

election.

Honduras - 1912 - Troops sent in to protect American

interests.

Nicaragua - 1912-33 - Troops occupied Nicaragua and

fought guerrillas during its 20-year civil war.

Mexico - 1913 - Navy evacuated Americans during

revolution.

Dominican Rep 1914 - Navy fought with rebels over

Santo Domingo.

Mexico - 1914-18 - Navy and troops sent in to

intervene against nationalists.

Haiti - 1914-34 - Troops occupied Haiti after a

revolution and occupied Haiti for 19 years.

Dominican Rep 1916-24 - Marines occupied the Dominican

Republic for eight years.

Cuba - 1917-33 - Troops landed and occupied Cuba for

16 years; Cuba became an economic protectorate.

World War I - 1917-18 - Navy and Army sent to Europe

to fight the Axis powers.

Russia - 1918-22 - Navy and troops sent to eastern

Russia after the Bolshevik Revolution; Army made five

landings.

Honduras - 1919 - Marines sent during Honduras`

national elections.

Guatemala - 1920 - Troops occupied Guatemala for two

weeks during a union strike.

Turkey - 1922 - Troops fought nationalists in Smyrna.

China - 1922-27 - Navy and Army troops deployed during

a nationalist revolt.

Honduras - 1924-25 - Troops landed twice during a

national election.

Panama - 1925 - Troops sent in to put down a general

strike.

China - 1927-34 - Marines sent in and stationed for

seven years throughout China.

El Salvador - 1932 - Naval warships deployed during

the FMLN revolt under Marti.

World War II - 1941-45 - Military fought the Axis

powers: Japan, Germany, and Italy.

Yugoslavia - 1946 - Navy deployed off the coast of

Yugoslavia in response to the downing of an American

plane.

Uruguay - 1947 - Bombers deployed as a show of

military force.

Greece - 1947-49 - United States operations insured a

victory for the far right in national ``elections.``

Germany - 1948 - Military deployed in response to the

Berlin blockade; the Berlin airlift lasts 444 days.

Philippines - 1948-54 - The CIA directed a civil war

against the Filipino Huk revolt.

Puerto Rico - 1950 - Military helped crush an

independence rebellion in Ponce.

Korean War - 1951-53 - Military sent in during the

war.

Iran - 1953 - The CIA orchestrated the overthrow of

democratically elected Mossadegh and restored the Shah

to power.

Vietnam - 1954 - The United States offered weapons to

the French in the battle against Ho Chi Minh and the

Viet Minh.

Guatemala - 1954 - The CIA overthrew the

democratically elected Arbenz and placed Colonel Armas

in power.

Egypt - 1956 - Marines deployed to evacuate foreigners

after Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal.

Lebanon - 1958 - Navy supported an Army occupation of

Lebanon during its civil war.

Panama - 1958 - Troops landed after Panamanians

demonstrations threatened the Canal Zone.

Vietnam - 1950s-75 - Vietnam War.

Cuba - 1961 - The CIA-directed Bay of Pigs invasions

failed to overthrow the Castro government.

Cuba - 1962 - The Navy quarantines Cuba during the

Cuban Missile Crisis.

Laos - 1962 - Military occupied Laos during its civil

war against the Pathet Lao guerrillas.

Panama - 1964 - Troops sent in and Panamanians shot

while protesting the United States presence in the

Canal Zone.

Indonesia - 1965 - The CIA orchestrated a military

coup.

Dominican Rep- 1965-66 - Troops deployed during a

national election.

Guatemala - 1966-67 - Green Berets sent in.

Cambodia - 1969-75 - Military sent in after the

Vietnam War expanded into Cambodia.

Oman - 1970 - Marines landed to direct a possible

invasion into Iran.

Laos - 1971-75 - Americans carpet-bomb the countryside

during Laos` civil war.

Chile - 1973 - The CIA orchestrated a coup, killing

President Allende who had been popularly elected. The

CIA helped to establish a military regime under

General Pinochet.

Cambodia - 1975 - Twenty-eight Americans killed in an

effort to retrieve the crew of the Mayaquez, which had

been seized.

Angola - 1976-92 - The CIA backed South African rebels

fighting against Marxist Angola.

Iran - 1980 - Americans aborted a rescue attempt to

liberate 52 hostages seized in the Teheran embassy.

Libya - 1981 - American fighters shoot down two Libyan

fighters.

El Salvador - 1981-92 - The CIA, troops, and advisers

aid in El Salvador`s war against the FMLN.

Nicaragua - 1981-90 - The CIA and NSC directed the

Contra War against the Sandinistas.

Lebanon - 1982-84 - Marines occupied Beirut during

Lebanon`s civil war; 241 were killed in the American

barracks and Reagan ``redeployed`` the troops to the

Mediterranean.

Honduras - 1983-89 - Troops sent in to build bases

near the Honduran border.

Grenada - 1983-84 - American invasion overthrew the

Maurice Bishop government.

Iran - 1984 - American fighters shot down two Iranian

planes over the Persian Gulf.

Libya - 1986 - American fighters hit targets in and

around the capital city of Tripoli.

Bolivia - 1986 - The Army assisted government troops

on raids of cocaine areas.

Iran - 1987-88 - The United States intervened on the

side of Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War.

Libya - 1989 - Navy shot down two more Libyan jets.

Virgin Islands - 1989 - Troops landed during unrest

among Virgin Island peoples.

Philippines - 1989 - Air Force provided air cover for

government during coup.

Panama - 1989-90 - 27,000 Americans landed in

overthrow of President Noriega; over 2,000 Panama

civilians were killed.

Liberia - 1990 - Troops entered Liberia to evacuate

foreigners during civil war.

Saudi Arabia - 1990-91 - American troops sent to Saudi

Arabia, which was a staging area in the war against

Iraq.

Kuwait - 1991 - Troops sent into Kuwait to turn back

Saddam Hussein.

Somalia - 1992-94 - Troops occupied Somalia during

civil war.

Bosnia - 1993-95 - Air Force jets bombed ``no-fly zone``

during civil war in Yugoslavia.

Haiti - 1994-96 - American troops and Navy provided a

blockade against Haiti`s military government. The CIA

restored Aristide to power.

Zaire - 1996-97 - Marines sent into Rwanda Hutus`

refugee camps in the area where the Congo revolution

began.

Albania - 1997 - Troops deployed during evacuation of

foreigners.

Sudan - 1998 - American missiles destroyed a

pharmaceutical complex where alleged nerve gas

components were manufactured.

Afghanistan - 1998 - Missiles launched towards alleged

Afghan terrorist training camps.

Yugoslavia - 1999 - Bombings and missile attacks

carried out by the United States in conjunction with

NATO in the 11 week war against Milosevic.

Iraq - 1998-2001 - Missiles launched into Baghdad and

other large Iraq cities for four days. American jets

enforced ``no-fly zone`` and continued to hit Iraqi

targets since December 1998.

These * *100 * * instances of American military

intervention did not include times when the United

States:

(1) deployed military police overseas;

(2) mobilized the National Guard;

(3) sent Navy ships off the coast of numerous

countries as a show of strength;

(4) sent additional troops to areas where Americans

were already stationed;

(5) carried out covert actions where American forces

were not under the direct rule of an American command;

(6) used small hostage rescue units;

(7) used American pilots to fly foreign planes;

(8) carried out military training and advisory

programs which did not involve direct combat.

U. S. Government Assassination Plots



Following is a list of prominent foreign leaders whose assassination

(or planning for same) the United States has been involved in since

the end of Second World War. The list does not include several

assassinations in various parts of the world carried out by anti-Castro

Cubans employed by CIA and headquartered in the United States:

LIST A: NON MUSLIMS

1949 - KIm Koo, Korean opposition leader

1950`s - CIA/Neo-Nazi hit list of numerous political figures in

West Germany

1955 - Jose` Antonio Remon, President of Panama

1950`s Chou En-lai, Prime Minister of China, several attempts

on his life

1951 - Kim Il Sung, Premiere of North Korea

1950s (mid) - Claro M. Recto, Philippines opposition leader

1955 - Jawar Lal Nehru, Prime Minister of India

1959 and 1963 - Norodom Sihanouk, leader of Cambodia

1950s-70s - Jose Figueres, President of Costa Rica,

two attempts on his life

1961 - Francois ``Papa Doc``Duvalier, leader of Haiti

1961 - Patrice Lumumba , Prime Minister of Congo (Zaire)

1961 - Gen. Rafael Trujillo, leader of Dominican Republic

1963 - Ngo Dinh Diem, President of South Vietnam

1960s - Fidel Castro, President of Cuba, more than

15 attempts on his life

1960s - Raul Castro, high official in government of Cuba

1965 - Francisco Caamanao, Dominican Republic opposition leader

1965 - Pierre Ngendandumwe, Prime Minister of Burundi

1965-6 - Charles de Gaulle, President of France

1967 - Che Guevara, Cuban leader

1970 - Salvadore Allende, President of Chile

1970 - General Rene Schneider, Commander-in-Chief of Army, Chile

1970s and 1981 - Gen. Omar Torrijos, leader of Panama

1972 - General Manuel Noriega, Chief of Panama Intelligence

1975 - Mobutu Sese Seko, President of Zaire

1976 - Michael Manley, Prime Minister of Jamaica

1983 - Miguel d`Escoto, Foreign Minister of Nicaragua

1984 - The nine commandantes of the Sandanista

National Directorate

1980`s - Dr. Gerald Bull, Canadian Ballistics Scientist

assassinated by Mossad in Belgium.

Partial List of Muslim Leaders Assassinated or

Attempted Assassinations

1950`s Sukarno, President of Indonesia

1957 Gamal Abdul Nasser, President of Egypt

1960 Brigadier General, Abdul Karim Kassem, Leader of Iraq

1980-86 Muammar Qaddafi, Leader of Libya, several plots and

attempts upon his life

1982 Ayatullah Khomeini, Leader of Iran

1983 General Ahmed Dlimi, Moroccan army Commander

1985 Sheikh Mohammed Hussein Fadllallah, Lebanese Shiite Leader

(80 people killed in that attempt)

1991 Saddam Hussein, Leader of Iraq

Reference: Blum, William, ``KILLING HOPE - U.S. Military and

CIA Interventions Since World War II,`` Appendix III

U.S. Government Assassination Plots, page 453,

Common Courage Press, Monroe, Maine 1995. ISBN 1-56751-052-3

Very likely Victims :

April 4, 1979 - Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Leader of Pakistan, for pursuing making

of

Nuclear Bomb.

August, 1988. General Ziaul Haq, Military Leader of Pakistan.

1995 - Murtaza Bhutto, Son of ZUlfiqar Ali Bhutto, Anti-American

would-be Leader - Pakistan.

March 25, 1975 - King Faisal of Saudi Arabia through his Nephew, Saudi

Arabia

for imposing 1973 Oil Embargo.

August 24, 1999. Mullah Mohammad Omar, in Kandhar, Afghanistan.

|

``À``List of Known Assassination Plots

1950`s Sukarno, President of Indonesia

1957 Gamal Abdul Nasser, President

2001 Since early this year more than 40 Palestinian leaders assassinated

through surrogate Israel.

Jawahara,

Good to see your posts. A quick word on ``Bijli``; he is a Chowk interactor that has 12 nicknames and maintains he has 12 different identities. Its a little too behuda for me, but be warned, speak to one, and the rest will swarm all over you like bats at twillight. It will become too bizarre.He refuses to express any reasonable behavior in this manner. The other designations are Aamir, Shah, Bapu, Deepika, Fatima, Faiza, Sadhna, Studebaker, Bhardwaj, Lajwanti and Brad Cruise.

This is a public service announcement. Thank you.

regards

Your new moniker, *Arrested Development * is totally apt, Bijli or whoever you are. Your development, if it ever began, is definitely arrested.

I could care less whether you agree with what I say or not. My job was to write it. Once it`s out of my hands, I can only clarify things. I can`t dictate that people have to like it. Oh, but you wouldn`t know that...freedom...an alien concept for you huh?

HANDS OFF ARAFAT – AND WITHDRAW : UN AND US tells Sharon.

Sharon may be trying to eliminate Arafat but the writing on the wall is that -- IT IS Sharon -- whose days are numbered.

Like Hitler, Mussolini, Bin Laden and Saddam Hussain -- every TORMENTOR of the people -- in a rising crescendo of VIOLENCE -- one day -- OVERPLAYS -- his HANDS -- and suddenly the world catches those HANDS -- and says NO MORE -- and BEATS those HANDS into pulp.

The blood soaked HANDS of that Butcher of Shattila and Sabra are -- in the process of -- OVERPLAY -- around Arafat`s compound -- those HANDS are heading for the chopping block.

The US supported 14-0 Security Council resolution ordering Israel to WITHDRAW -- is the FIRST warning SHOT.

As always like every TYRANT -- Sharon the Bulldozer is about to BULLDOZE the moral and political structure of Israel -- into the grounds of NAZI abominations.

IT IS TIME -- for that Likud’s APOLOGIST – the FIG LEAF -- Shimon Perez -- to jump off the TYRANT`S TITANIC.

Yes, for all intents and purposes I am American, though I have disagreed with most of their foreign policies and overseas activities. I have taken a lot from this country and to be anything else is unacceptable, especially at this time. That does not mean that I will not continue to criticize its policies here and elsewhere.

Besides this was not written as a political commentary, it was my reaction to what happened. It was a reflection of my fears. Yes, we all know of things that happen elsewhere. This was my reaction to what happened *here *. Right or wrong, that is it.

I will not argue much with your criticism of this article. That is your right as a reader. However, I do take exception to your ``reaping the rewards`` statement. If the masterminds of September 11 had gone after military targets I would not have been this upset. You sign up for the military you sign up for risks.

But to suggest that people who showed up to work or the babies on the plane or anyone else who died, is helping reap the rewards is a barbaric and heartless statement. Yes, it happens elsewhere...that does not make it right. Period!

No-one...not here, not in Afghanistan or Chechnya (Kashmir is another case altogether that I will not get into here) or anywhere else in the world, deserves this terror and horror.

Cheers

Written like a true american, totally unaware and ignorant of the world outside. The fun filled 90`S. ????? What about the massacres in iraq, bosnia, checnya and Kashmir. DO they define fun as you may call it. and so what if the americans start feelign insecure for the first time, i think they deserve it for its their arrogance which has provoked all this.

Stop the american jingoism and start thinking what went wrong apart from the fact that a nation of capitalistn criminals is finally reaping its rewards.

cheers

ylh, SameerJB, shankar, bina, shammi, sigalph25, Nawabzada N., Qazi Urstruly, tahmad, temporal and any other interested folk:

The Pakistani Power Structure and its grip on the Pakistani society (Part II): How to break it:



Now that there is some understanding of how the four power structures are inter-related to each other, through 200 hundred or so powerful families, one has to figure out how to liberate the normal Pakistanis (i.e. all of us who do not belong to these families, the peasants, the comp. scientists, etc.) from the shackles of these families.

It should be understood that these families will themselves fight tooth and nail to ensure their dominance is kept. Regardless of how many enlightened poems they may author about peasant`s rights, they will never give up power volutarily. Someone outside the system will have to take the power from them by force. Also, since these families will always be in power regardless of which feudal party wins the elections (since their relatives are in every party), election after election under the current system will not solve the problem. It will infact strengthen them, which is why they are they biggest supporters of Pakistan ridiculous version of, ``democracy.``

Let`s start with the military, a subject whose internals I understand quite well. There is a simple solution: Cut down the General ranks to 1/3rd their current size. Instead of 160 Generals, there should be around 55 in the combined forces. The PAF has four Air Marshalls (Lt. Gens.) and around 17 AVMs (Maj. Generals). Interestingly it only has around 17 fighter squadrons. The USAF at its peak with 90 times the budget of the PAF and ten times the men, had only 13 Lt. Generals (not 100% sure of this figure).

The Pakistani military, thus, is one of the most top heavy in the world. It is basically turning into an employment agency for Generals. Cutting the size of the General staff will require a joint agreement from the three Chiefs, the President and the Prime Minister. After that, it will be an easy task. All the money and resources saved from this cutdown should be used to raise the salaries of the junior officers. Captains and Majors, in any military of the world, usually don`t like Generals, anyways.

This will greatly reduce the power of the top military brass in areas outside the military. There will barely be enough Generals to run the military, much less get involved in civilian ventures. And cutting down the top staff will actually make the military more efficient.

- A similar task needs to be done in the beaurecracy. And it needs to be made subordinate to the elected local bodies.

- Feudalism does not need to be reduced. It needs to be eliminated, all together. There needs to be a limit set on the amount of land a person can own, thereby removing his/her monopoly on farming and politics. All landowners also need to be forced to pay taxes on equivalent scales to the businessmen.

- This brings us to the final group: big business. This is the only group that should not be reduced. Infact, businessmen of all sizes (big, small, medium) need to be encouraged and allowed to grow even bigger. This group is the true strength of any country.

However, an equal playing field needs to be set up in business, by minimizing corruption. And big business needs to be forced to pay taxes honestly. The market forces, and not corruption, should be deciding factor in business growth. Once a level playing field is achieved, then businesses of all sizes must be provided every single facility they need to grow even bigger.

(I would like to point out that I am myself a businessman, hence a member of this group. So my views maybe a bit biased; for some reason, perhaps due to their own frustration, some people keep placing me in the military group).

How will this reduce the influence of these powerful families:

- From my generation onwards, these powerful families have stopped sending their kids into the military. It is no longer lucrative. The ones who have kids in the military, are desparately trying to get them out. Zia-ul-Haq`s son is not in the military, but a senior member of the feudal PML. Gohar Ayub got out of the military as a Captain, and is a part of the powerful four nexus. Nawaz Sharif married his daughter to a Captain. Immediately after marraige, the Captain was out of the Army and into the beaurecracy, etc.

The only thing that happens now is that these families marry their kids to the kids of people who have become Generals, and vice-versa.

Since the feudal and business kids are not in the mlitary profession any more, the military`s direct association at the personal level, with the nexus has weakened. Additionally, once the number of Generals are reduced, the chances of marrying into this group will be reduced also. Also, the military works on a rotational basis. So while a General maybe a very powerful position, a person only occupies it for three years or so. He eventually retires, and loses his power. He does not own these positions (unlike the feudal who occupies his position as long as he lives).

- The reduction of the beaurecracy will have the same effect as the reduction of the General staff. And placing it under elected control will furthur reduce its power.

- Removing the feudal will completely shake everything up. It will literally liberate 2/3rd of Pakistan. With limited lands, the feudal will no longer be able to control politics. He will start losing political power and will be unable to influence to other members on his land. This will be the killing blow to the power 4 nexus, and will throw these families completely out of Pakistan`s power loop.

- Big business will grow, but the powerful families will now have lost their nexus network. They will thus be effected by the market forces like everyone else. If they are efficient, by all means their relatives in this area should be allowed to grow. However, if they are not efficient, these families will automatically die their natural death in the business arena.

Thus the power nexus will be broken, and these families kids will have to earn a 9-5 living like the rest of us.

As an example, lets look at how this nexus harms business in Pakistan. I am currently in a position to set up a small computer business of around 15 people in Pakistan. Suppose I go to Pakistan, and set it up. Now suppose some kid from Goor Yoob`s (Gohar Ayub) extended families decides to compete with me. All things equal, if I am more efficient than him, I will kick his butt. If he is more efficient, then he will kick mine. Well and good.

However, Gohar Jr. will be so well connected in all sectors of Pakistan, that he will have a huge head start on me. Regardless of who is in power, he will have access to him/her , since his family members are in every party and in every power group. Regardless of how efficient I maybe, he will probably control the business market through his contacts, thereby putting me out of business, and increasing his influence in big business. Due to this, I will be reluctant to invest in Pakistan, regardless of how much I may want to.

As an example look at what Irfan Marwat (Ghulam Ishaq Khan`s son in law, and thus the relative of the Ayubs, Khattaks and Saifullahs) did in Pakistan`s cellular phone market.

``Let us start with former

president of the republic, the obstinate, uncompromising, grim Ghulam Ishaq Khan, who, one could take a risk and say, was not personally financially corrupt. But one cannot say with full

certainty that he was not as, whilst in office, he allowed an open field to his two sons-in-law, Anwar Saifullah and Irfan Marwat, to abuse the national wealth and the people.`` (http://www.lib.virginia.edu/area-studies/SouthAsia/SAserials/Dawn/2001/jan2701.html)

What has the current govt. done to break the power 4 nexus:

In all fairness (regardless of what our local Nawazada Hamid and Qazi Urs may say; two individuals who bicker with each other on every issue, except in opposing others` point of views, unconditionally), unlike previous govts., the current govt. is not feeding the power 4 nexus. I say this as a member of the business group, and not as a member of the military group (which Nawabzada and Qazi keep trying to place me into, for some strange reason). Though not completely successful, it has done a much better job in cutting down the influence of the powerful families than the previous govts. (since the previous govts. were constitued by these families themselves). The current govt. and cabinet consists of people who are generally from outside the powerful family nexus (no Gohar Ayubs or Anwar Saifullahs etc.), and represent successful Pakistanis from the middle and upper middle class, and not feudals.

Its performance is as follows:

- The current govt. has not cut down the size of the General Staff. It has put some Generals in jail. It has frozen the military budget. It has introduced stricter accountablity in the military. These three steps are well and good, but those of us who understand the military, know that its budget is not the main problem (most of it is spent on equipment; military men in South Asia are the lowest paid professionals in the society). It is the number and influence of the General staff, in areas outside the military, that is the problem. That can only be reduced by removing 2/3rd of the General ranks, and giving these positions to people of a lower rank (like it used to be).

Musharraf has not cut the General staff down to size, because this is where he draws his strength from. Since Musharraf is not part of the power 4 nexus through family contacts, the other 3 members of the nexus, along with the religious right, is already united against him (the complete spectrum from Nawazada Nasrullah to Qazi Hussein). People who hate each other and never agree on anything, are now united against Musharraf, since they are afraid he is going to cut them down to size.

If Musharraf turns on the military General staff also, he probably feels he will be isolated, since this group will join into the nexus as well, and leave Musharraf completely isolated. So since Musharraf isn`t going to cut this group to size, someone else will have to do it in the future.

- The current govt. has completely decimated the beaurecracy. Not only has it been cut it down to size, the powerful positions of DC and Commissioner have been removed all together. Added to this, it is now under the control of the elected bodies. The old beaurecratic power structure is now gone.

- The feudals have not been taken on by the current govt., at all, except for disqualifying many of the elder ones through the Bachelors degree requirement. I assume the govt. is afraid of the feudals. It knows it cannot break their back. If it takes them on, the feudals will turn 2/3rd of Pakistan against this govt. This is unfortunate, because until feudals are eliminated, Pakistan will not progress, regardless of what else happens.

- The govt. is trying to create a level playing field for business. It has gone after a whole group of corrupt businessmen through NAB (some of the ones who belong to the powerful 200 families have been able to get themselves freed). It has also given more autonomy to financial institutions. It is desparately trying to privatize everything, specifically the banks. And it is trying hard to promote small and medium enterprises, etc.

However, it will be very difficult to create a level playing field, until the powerful 200+ family nexus is broken, since they will come back into political power, and undo everything this govt. has done in the business arena.

So the current govt. gets very good marks in sorting out the beaurecracy. It gets good marks on creating level playing fields in business. It gets bad marks in sorting out the military General staff. And it gets very bad marks in going after the feudal.

In conclusion, the above solution is no different than what is employed by successful socieities in the West:

1) They have completely eliminated the feudal, distributed the lands, and have turned farming into a business which is governed by market forces (with some govt. subsidies provided fairly to all farmers). Hence the most efficient farmer wins out, not the biggest feudal with the most political influence.

2) They have not completely eliminated the military and beaurecracy, realizing that they are needed for self-defence and management, respectively. These countries have however, reduced the military and beaurecracy to the smallest possible size (except of superpowers like the USA and aspiring powers like India), with a small General Staff, thereby reducing its influence in civilian areas.

3) They have highly encouraged businesses of all sizes to grow, but in an even playing field, with strong laws against corruption.

Thus these successful societies have built themselves on the backs of robust tax-paying entreprenuers and businessmen (farming being a business there also), and not on the shoulders of Generals, beaurecrats and feudals (feudals are gone, generals and beaurecrats are respected, but given no power outside their specific tasks). The most talented people in these socieites go into business. The politics of these countries are not run by feudals and Generals, either. And beaurecrats do not have the influence to bother the businessmen (I have hardly ever had to deal with a single US beaurecrat direcly in my small software businessman).

saminashah #284 The Arab-Palestinian conflict reminds me of the family feuds that go on for generations in NWFP, and for the same stupid reason: land. In NWFP, they have an excuse - people are poor and land is their livelihood. That is not true in the middle east. It is the sense of injustice, pride and so forth. True leadership would be to end the conflict and bring peace to the people. There is more than enough land for everyone in the middle east.

On Palestine:

The British White Paper of June 1922 is interesting reading. Curiously, the Jewish population at that time in Palestine was just 80,000 for whom the Belfour declaration of 1917 envisaged a homeland `in Palestine`, left suitably vague as to what that meant. The white paper of 1922 attempted to clarify that somewhat as below. As to what actually happened after the British Mandate ended in 1948, as they say the rest is history. A suitable phrase would be `Ag lein aey tey ghar wali ban bethey!`

[The Secetary of State for the Colonies has given renewed consideration to the existing political situation in Palestine, with a very earnest desire to arrive at a settlement of the outstanding questions which have given rise to uncertainty and unrest among certain sections of the population. After consultation with the High Commissioner for Palestine [Sir Herbert Samuel] the following statement has been drawn up. It summarizes the essential parts of the correspondence that has already taken place between the Secretary of State and a delegation from the Moslem Christian Society of Palestine, which has been for some time in England, and it states the further conclusions which have since been reached.

The tension which has prevailed from time to time in Palestine is mainly due to apprehensions, which are entertained both by sections of the Arab and by sections of the Jewish population. These apprehensions, so far as the Arabs are concerned are partly based upon exaggerated interpretations of the meaning of the [Balfour] Declaration favouring the establishment of a Jewish National Home in Palestine, made on behalf of His Majesty`s Government on 2nd November, 1917.

Unauthorized statements have been made to the effect that the purpose in view is to create a wholly Jewish Palestine. Phrases have been used such as that Palestine is to become ``as Jewish as England is English.`` His Majesty`s Government regard any such expectation as impracticable and have no such aim in view. Nor have they at any time contemplated, as appears to be feared by the Arab deegation, the disappearance or the subordination of the Arabic population, language, or culture in Palestine. They would draw attention to the fact that the terms of the Declaration referred to do not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a Home should be founded `in Palestine.` In this connection it has been observed with satisfaction that at a meeting of the Zionist Congress, the supreme governing body of the Zionist Organization, held at Carlsbad in September, 1921, a resolution was passed expressing as the official statement of Zionist aims ``the determination of the Jewish people to live with the Arab people on terms of unity and mutual respect, and together with them to make the common home into a flourishing community, the upbuilding of which may assure to each of its peoples an undisturbed national development.``

It is also necessary to point out that the Zionist Commission in Palestine, now termed the Palestine Zionist Executive, has not desired to possess, and does not possess, any share in the general administration of the country. Nor does the special position assigned to the Zionist Organization in Article IV of the Draft Mandate for Palestine imply any such functions. That special position relates to the measures to be taken in Palestine affecting the Jewish population, and contemplates that the organization may assist in the general development of the country, but does not entitle it to share in any degree in its government.

Further, it is contemplated that the status of all citizens of Palestine in the eyes of the law shall be Palestinian, and it has never been intended that they, or any section of them, should possess any other juridical status. So far as the Jewish population of Palestine are concerned it appears that some among them are apprehensive that His Majesty`s Government may depart from the policy embodied in the Declaration of 1917. It is necessary, therefore, once more to affirm that these fears are unfounded, and that that Declaration, re affirmed by the Conference of the Principle Allied Powers at San Remo and again in the Treaty of Sevres, is not susceptible of change.

During the last two or three generations the Jews have recreated in Palestine a community, now numbering 80,000, of whom about one fourth are farmers or workers upon the land. This community has its own political organs; an elected assembly for the direction of its domestic concerns; elected councils in the towns; and an organization for the control of its schools. It has its elected Chief Rabbinate and Rabbinical Council for the direction of its religious affairs. Its business is conducted in Hebrew as a vernacular language, and a Hebrew Press serves its needs. It has its distinctive intellectual life and displays considerable economic activity. This community, then, with its town and country population, its political, religious, and social organizations, its own language, its own customs, its own life, has in fact ``national`` characteristics. When it is asked what is meant by the development of the Jewish National Home in Palestine, it may be answered that it is not the imposition of a Jewish nationality upon the inhabitants of Palestine as a whole, but the further development of the existing Jewish community, with the assistance of Jews in other parts of the world, in order that it may become a centre in which the Jewish people as a whole may take, on grounds of religion and race, an interest and a pride. But in order that this community should have the best prospect of free development and provide a full opportunity for the Jewish people to display its capacities, it is essential that it should know that it is in Palestine as of right and not on the sufferance. That is the reason why it is necessary that the existence of a Jewish National Home in Palestine should be internationally guaranteed, and that it should be formally recognized to rest upon ancient historic connection.

This, then, is the interpretation which His Majesty`s Government place upon the Declaration of 1917, and, so understood, the Secretary of State is of opinion that it does not contain or imply anything which need cause either alarm to the Arab population of Palestine or disappointment to the Jews.

For the fulfilment of this policy it is necessary that the Jewish community in Palestine should be able to increase its numbers by immigration. This immigration cannot be so great in volume as to exceed whatever may be the economic capacity of the country at the time to absorb new arrivals. It is essential to ensure that the immigrants should not be a burden upon the people of Palestine as a whole, and that they should not deprive any section of the present population of their employment. Hitherto the immigration has fulfilled these conditions. The number of immigrants since the British occupation has been about 25,000. It is necessary also to ensure that persons who are politically undesirable be excluded from Palestine, and every precaution has been and will be taken by the Administration to that end.]

Rgds

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sorry I meant shima #80

shima #78

Don`t bother to reply to this poltroon and make him feel important. If he is a doctor I am queen Victoria.

RE: shah

``APHC condemns ban on SIMI

SRINAGAR, Sep 30 (PNS): All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) has strongly

condemned the ban on Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) describing it offshoot of communalism.``

Who gives a rat`s a$$ what APHC thinks. They are as irrelevant as your existence.

Bapu or whoever you are, you must have a big inflated ego to think that we are obsessed about you. Who are you exposing but yourself? See how dubious a character you are, you post as a Pakistani doctor (I guess that is what once Aamir claimed), then you post as an Indian Muslim. What these two entities may have common? it is hate, and that is what shapes your opinion.

We should not be wasting our time on a dubious character like you, but this is the time we should raise our voices against all the bullies, whether they are cyber or real, otherwise event like WTC would be far too common.

Those(in both camps)do not know how to get their points across without hurling personal abuse, they should know that they are trivialised by their own statements, nobody else can do that job better than they themselves.

No doubt it was like a movie, but in all respect it was bad movie. It is right to carry on with life becuase show must go on. Like show is on in Iraq, Phalestine, Afghanistan, Chechnia and other countries.

Neptune, you are right. Actually, if you see the writing of Bapu, Bijli, Aamir, Shah etc. you can see how uniquely they use the comma. This is like DNA fingerprinting of comma. This is fun, have you seen any of the shows like Medical Detectives on discovery channel?

Faiza/Aamir etc etc

HinduUnity.org’s conversion to the doctrine of religious tolerance came so suddenly that they apparently did not have time to update their website to reflect their new-found sensitivities; at press time the site still called for all Muslims to get out of India, it still warned that the 1992 destruction of the historic Babri Mosque by Hindu fanatics was “only the tip of the iceberg�Ein a coming campaign of mosque demolitions, and it continued to assert that “for the survival of Hinduism, it`s people and it`s culture, [Mohandas Ghandhi] had to be assassinated.

Tthis whole article is dead on the money. Tthanks for posting it.

shima #74

Your observation is on the dot. Not only these three, but a lot more nicks are on the line. At the last count, he uses the following nicks:

Studebaker/AAmir/AeishA/Bapu/Bijli/Shah/Faiza/

Fatimah/Deepika/Bhardwaj/Sadhna/Brad Cruise/

Arrested Development/Lajwanti and so on.

If at any point you feel like being in a house of mirrors and facing the same idiot at every corner is because you actually are.

Tahmed, I think you are right about the identity of Bijli, Bapu, and now this faiza, you may want to add studebaker in that list also. The writing style is very similar, some incoherent sentences, then suddenly something appears in all caps. The unabated India bashing, in fact they are good substitute for Gowardhan and Akash for Pakistan bashing (although, I must say Akash has toned down a bit). Only problem is all these multiple personalities claim to be are Indians!!! Kitni sharm ki bat...

I just saw the interview of Pervaiz Musharaff with Christiana Amanpour on CNN. He was clear, direct and honest in response to excellent questions from the veteran journalist, Ms. Amanpour. I am now convinced more than ever that God is watching out for Pakistan: that is why we have Musharaff with his strong character and concern for Pakistan in charge.

Let us pray that Pakistan comes out of all this back on the road to peace and progress.

The interview will be repeated a few times today on CNN, and chowkies might want to check it out.

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Eklavya #60 krashid has not posted in months. I pray all is well with him. Maybe it is time to resurrect Shirin`s suggestion (at one time on chowk) for each of the chowk regulars to have ``chowk buddy`` who could advise the rest of us of any events in real life that can be shared on chowk.

Arundhati Roy besides being reputed writer ,has been a Social activist in India against a Dam narmada being built for generation of hydro electric by ENRON ,an American Multi Natinal Corporation with close to 5 bn. investmentment .

Pp. like Arundhati Roy who is Keralite married to Bong. is staunchily opPosed to the Dam which has uprootedmany poor villagers on its path & wil many millions more all for benefit of electricity for Cities like Ahmedabad ,Delghi Mumai while they will lose there land ,house & trades.Not to speak unable to even afford the electricity.

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectNh.asp?cid=145702

ESSAY

The Algebra Of Infinite Justice

NOW OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM (atleast for muslims sentiments & mine)

So here we have it. The equivocating distinction between civilisation and savagery, between the `massacre of innocent people` or, if you like, `a clash of civilisations` and `collateral damage`. The sophistry and fastidious algebra of Infinite Justice... Free Speech

[]

ARUNDHATI ROY



In the aftermath of the unconscionable September 11 suicide attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center, an American newscaster said: ``Good and Evil rarely manifest themselves as clearly as they did last Tuesday. People who we don`t know, massacred people who we do. And they did so with contemptuous glee.`` Then he broke down and wept. Here`s the rub: America is at war against people it doesn`t know (because they don`t appear much on TV). Before it has properly identified or even begun to comprehend the nature of its enemy, the US government has, in a rush of publicity and embarrassing rhetoric, cobbled together an ``International Coalition Against Terror``, mobilised its army, its airforce, its navy and its media, and committed them to battle.



[]

[] []

Box-cutters, penknives, and cold anger are the weapons with which the wars of the new century will be waged. Anger is the lock pick. It slips through customs unnoticed. Doesn`t show up in baggage checks.

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[]

[]

The trouble is that once America goes off to war, it can`t very well return without having fought one. If it doesn`t find its enemy, for the sake of the enraged folks back home, it will have to manufacture one. Once war begins, it will develop a momentum, a logic and a justification of its own, and we`ll lose sight of why it`s being fought in the first place.



What we`re witnessing here is the spectacle of the world`s most powerful country, reaching reflexively, angrily, for an old instinct to fight a new kind of war. Suddenly, when it comes to defending itself, America`s streamlined warships, its Cruise missiles and F-16 jets look like obsolete, lumbering things. As deterrence, its arsenal of nuclear bombs is no longer worth its weight in scrap. Box-cutters, penknives, and cold anger are the weapons with which the wars of the new century will be waged. Anger is the lock pick. It slips through customs unnoticed. Doesn`t show up in baggage checks.

Who is America fighting? On September 20, the FBI said that it had doubts about the identities of some of the hijackers. On the same day, President George W. Bush said: ``We know exactly who these people are and which governments are supporting them.`` It sounds as though the President knows something that the FBI and the American public don`t.

In his September 20 address to the US Congress, President Bush called the enemies of America ``Enemies of Freedom``.

``Americans are asking why do they hate us?`` he said. ``They hate our freedoms—our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other.`` People are being asked to make two leaps of faith here. First, to assume that The Enemy is who the US government says it is, even though it has no substantial evidence to support that claim. And []

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It`s reasonable to wonder why the symbols of America`s economic and military dominance—the World Trade Center and the Pentagon—were chosen as the targets of the attacks. Why not the Statue of Liberty?

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[]



second, to assume that The Enemy`s motives are what the US government says they are, and there`s nothing to support that either.

For strategic, military and economic reasons, it is vital for the US government to persuade the American public that America`s commitment to freedom and democracy and the American Way of Life is under attack. In the current atmosphere of grief, outrage and anger, it`s an easy notion to peddle. However, if that were true, it`s reasonable to wonder why the symbols of America`s economic and military dominance—the World Trade Center and the Pentagon—were chosen as the targets of the attacks. Why not the Statue of Liberty? Could it be that the stygian anger that led to the attacks has its taproot not in American freedom and democracy, but in the US government`s record of commitment and support to exactly the opposite things—to military and economic terrorism, insurgency, military dictatorship, religious bigotry and unimaginable genocide (outside America)?



(1 of 6)

READ THE REST ,IF YOU WANT OR CARE TO THE URL ABOVE IS GOOD FOR FEW DAYS

#56

saminashah

``7. No Arab state is democratic, so why shouldn`t Israel be run as an apartheid state? (can`t quite follow the logic here)``



sshah

Israel is an IMPLANT ,unlike the prexisting since biblical time Baghdad,Syria,Egypt,Saudi ,.Cant just compare ,like Vajpayee,doing to SIMI ,WHAT BUSH IS DOING IN THE AFTERMATH of 9-11 Tragedy .I cant follow Indian logic either.Not that im dissapointed or anything!

#58

``STUKA

The logic is why make a special case out of Israel. What does Israel owe to the rest of the world? The Palestenians said that they made a major concession by conceding Israel`s right to exist. Big deal. Israel is out there, exisitng and progressive. Do you how insulting it would be for India to say after 50 years of Pakistani independance, oh right, we acknowledge your right to exist.``..



All your neumerically arranged ,comes from a nonmuslim point of views.Regardless of whether the Muslim is in your Backyard in Old Delhi near Hause Khase or Up & coming enterpfreneuer with land & big building in Ghaziabad,all of them will understand the Palestenians position better than you.

I am not saying worse days are not ahead for Palestenian,but if you think small things in context of bigger design of scheme of the world as it stands in the hand of racsist,prejuduced Judeo -Christian collusion .Palestenian & any intelligent muslim is RESIGNED to the fact that there future does not lie in there hands.Its another thing ,they take the most bleak prognosis of this & there fore like hopeless deperate &`NOTHING TO LOSE `

but there own life ,which in there opinion isnt much wiothout being able to control it or be ``free`` to live according to there will.

Israel CAN NEVER BE SYRIA,EGYPT or any of the ancient historical countries.Israsel is AN IMPLANT.Transplant is when somthing is taken from other place & expected to good to the local ppl. THIS CERTAINLY IS NOT ONLY HARMFUL FOR PALESTENIAN BUT OF NO USE TO PLESTENIANS.All the rest garbage about other Arabs being non democratic,etc is none of the business .WE DONT THINK DEMOCRATIC SECULARISM is the 2nd best thing to sliced bread ,You have right to think so ,but evenArabs allow there subjects to be hindu ,jew ,Christian except dont do certain stipulated things & whats so horrible to honour other religous sensibilities which Islam even recognizes need to respect ,``there is no compulsuion in religion``Its common sense religuion can never be Coerced ,never has been & never will be .

New essay by India`s leading polemic, Arundhati Roy on the events of Sep 11 and their aftermath. A well-written (as expected) anti-American, anti-globalization, anti-multinational tirade (as expected too).

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?sid=1&fname=Roy+%28F%29&fodname=20011008&secname=

Most Italians think Berlusconi comments on Islam ``insulting``

ROME, Sept 28 (AFP) - A majority of Italians -- 53 percent -- think comments by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi that Western religions were superior to Islam are insulting, according to an opinion poll which appeared on Friday.

Nearly a third -- 30 percent -- of the 1,000 people questioned by the CIRM polling institute said that Berlusconi was right in his comments, while 17 per cent said they had no opinion, in the poll published in La Repubblica on Friday.

Briefing Italian journalists during a visit to Berlin on Wednesday, Berlusconi said the West ``should be confident of the superiority of our civilization`` and he urged Europe to ``reconstitute itself on the basis of its Christian roots.``

His comments sparked a storm of controversy, coming amid US and European efforts to build support among Muslim nations for a global fight against Osama bin Laden`s fundamentalist extremist network in the aftermath of the September 11 terrorist attacks on the United States.

Rome has so far declined to apologise for the remarks, although the doyen of Arab ambassadors in Rome, Saudi Prince Mohammed bin Nawaf, will along with other Arab diplomats by received by the foreign ministry next Tuesday, giving an opportunity for a possible move to redress the situation.

On Thursday Berlusconi`s spokesman brushed off the criticism, saying he did not understand how one could accuse ``of insulting Islam, the head of a European government who is fighting for the participation of moderate Arab countries in the alliance against terrorism.``

Italy has one million Muslims but this community is not recognised by the state.

Stuka,

Well, you gave it the old college try...can`t say I agree with your points, vasai, you`re entitled to them. I think generally many of the criticisms brought up are pretty discredited at this point;

re: leadership for example. What on earth allows people outside of any occupied region to think that the politics and various sub groups can be easily organized under a state of siege? It is difficult under the best of circumstances. It is common knowledge that Arafat has no control over groups like the pathological idiots Hamas, and yet everytime an Israeli is murdered or a suicide bomber walks into a group of people, the responsibility is neatly laid at Arafat`s door, as if, let me reiterate, he has any control over the lunatic fringe.The media clamors for reassurance, he says he can`t control Hamas, and the cycle starts all over again. Utterly disingenuous.

The desperation and chaos is never acknowledged, the evil Palestinians are blamed, and nothing changes. I am beggining to suspect this is all in the plan.

Stuka, I hear a lot of excuses. I dare the various Chowkies as an exercise in humanity, to say, come up with at least 10 reasons, without excuse, why we should care about people who are the same or different from us, who suffer the abuse of their human rights. Can it be done? Unfortunately, I can`t say it can. Mores the pity.

What makes Israel so interesting is the reality/historical subtext of the Holocaust; surely the irony has not escaped you. Of course, irony doesn`t pay the bills, and it sure doesn`t lead to justice.It calls itself a democracy, when it clearly is for Israelis.

re: change;We all talk about the violence attributed to the Palestinians, (not the state terrorism of Israel, of course), but don`t give any creedence to peaceful struggle...Oh, Gandhi did it? Indeed he did, but no-one wants to talk about him anymore, Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Sikh...We talk about the unsupportable Palestinians who held militant stances in the past and say nothing about the Israeli hardliners.

Maybe y`all should check out Dilip Hiro`s book on this matter; he`s a South Asian writer who approached this matter, quite nicely, if I recall.

regards

Incredible Article from Dawn (Karachi) today..



Be proud, not apologetic


By Dr Humayun Khan


To say that Pakistan has rejoined the American camp is a half-truth. What we have done is rejoined the international community. We should now have the courage to admit that previous policies, which took us more and more out of the mainstream of international thinking, were faulty. We should also have the courage to say that the abandonment of such policies was, on merit, the wisest course and we are proud to have taken it.

It is a pity that President Musharraf, whose decisions in the past days have been praiseworthy, should feel that he must justify those decisions on grounds of compulsion. But such are the realities of politics and power. In his address to the nation on the Sept. 19, he seemed to be saying that, in order to save our skin, we must be prepared to sup with the devil. He need not have been so defensive. He has done the right thing by any standard and he should feel confident in justifying his decision on its intrinsic merit.

Pakistan has not entered any anti-Afghan or anti-Islamic camp. It has joined the anti-terrorist camp. In this it finds itself in good company because virtually every country in the world is in that camp. Moreover, Pakistan has stronger reason than many for doing this. For many years now, terrorists have roamed our streets, often in the garb of religion, killing innocent people. Is it not a frightening statistic that in the last 20 years, more Muslims have been killed in sectarian clashes in Pakistan than in anti-Muslim riots in India?

Is it not alarming that doctors, lawyers, and bankers have been murdered in Karachi for no reason other than their sect and that distinguished professionals are now fleeing that city. The fact of the matter is that the good name of Islam has been polluted and sullied by merchants of hate, both within our borders and beyond. It is to our eternal shame that suspicion should ever have existed that they were tolerated, even encouraged, by official agencies and by government policies.

Our problem has been that we have far more people who profess Islam than those who act according to its tenets. We have too many ``public`` Muslims and too few ``private`` Muslims. We all know the venal politicians, bureaucrats, military officers and religious leaders who make a great exhibition of their observance of Islamic rituals. In private, much of their time is spent like the nursery rhyme king in his counting house counting all his money.

The vast majority of Pakistanis must welcome the change of direction, which the actions of Gen Musharraf promise. Unfortunately, the vast majority is usually a silent majority. As long as terror does not strike them personally, most people are content to be left alone and to live their lives quietly. They fall into a torpor of complacency and thereby yield the stage to violent minorities whose main weapon is the vocalization of religion. It would be tragic if the welfare of this silent majority is ignored while the clamour of the militant minority is heeded.

The challenge now for General Musharraf is to stand firm. He can only do this if he genuinely believes (and indications are that he does) that this is the right course for Pakistan`s future. Nobody is asking him to support the killing of innocent Afghans. Clearly this is not something which any country, including the US, wants. Nobody is asking him to contribute to anti-Islamic actions. What he is required to do is to stand against those who preach violence, be it in the name of religion or otherwise. Admittedly, the risk in doing this is great. But it pales into insignificance against the risk of not doing it.

So, whether President Musharraf was pushed onto the right path or not is an issue that should be put behind us together with all sane elements in this country must now exhibit a full commitment to continuing along that path.

Fortunately, America has heeded the voice of the world community and of its own conscience. It has not acted violently or in haste. To this day, it is struggling to avoid punishing innocent Afghans for the follies of their leaders and the crimes of their unwanted guests. It is seeking a coalition with Islamic countries and is complying with the world`s call for balance and restraint; up to the time of this writing no military action has been taken.

If and when it comes, a primary aim will and must be to avoid killing or hurting innocent people. In the light of this, anti-American protests at this stage are both premature and misplaced - unless, of course, the motives behind these protests are merely to assert and impose the will of extremists on the people of Pakistan. This is the real danger that now confronts us. To meet it, courage and determination on the part of our government and of the vast majority of our people will be necessary.

We must not underestimate the havoc that extremists can create but, at the same time, we must not cower before their threats. Naturally, the first option must be to talk to them and bring them round to a common perception of the national interest. Special attention has to be paid to the problem in the border provinces of the NWFP and Balochistan where pro-Taliban elements abound. Our tribal areas are particularly inflammable. History has shown that in circumstances like these, tribal passions are easily roused. All this calls for exceptional skill on the part of the political administration of these areas.

Finally we must make clear our rejection of, and our revulsion at the statements made by some former military officers who are known to have plunged this country into many disasters in the past and who continue to advocate that it should keep going downhill. These men are dangerous because they have influence with those still serving in the army many of whom have worked as their juniors in the past.

At this very testing time our resolve in the face of immediate dangers must be accompanied by farsightedness about the implications for our future. The present policy undoubtedly holds promise but it also entails some basic rethinking if that promise is to be fully realized. Once the problem of Bin Laden and the Taliban is resolved, world attention will inevitably turn to the control of terrorism in wider sense. One consequence of this will be that the dividing line between freedom fighters and terrorists will become indistinguishable. Violence as a means to achieve political ends, which in themselves may be noble, will be less and less condoned.

For Pakistan this will necessitate a hard second look at our Kashmir policies. We will need to objectively reassess whether a militant jihad has helped us towards a solution of that problem or has hindered it. We shall certainly have to be cognizant of the negative impact of such activities on a possible settlement in the future. In doing this, we can draw some strength from the hope that, while violence will not be condoned, international interest in peacefully solving issues like Kashmir and Palestine will undoubtedly increase.

On the general conduct of foreign policy we will have to drastically review some of our past practices. For more than 20 years now, ``deniability`` has been a dominant theme in our conduct of foreign relations. We have consistently had to deny what we were, rightly or wrongly, accused of doing in the two most crucial areas of concern - Afghanistan and Kashmir. ``Deniability`` is essentially a tool of Intelligence; it is not an ingredient of statesmanship. We have to lift our foreign policy out of the murky levels of Intelligence to the high plane of statesmanship. We must begin to be open and proud , not furtive and cagey about our actions.

We haven`t seen Krashid for a very long time now. I hope he is doing well. A bit worrying...

shammi #47

......... you are right - the palestinians had many chances to get what they wanted but they blew it because they were obsessed with the idea of driving the jews into the sea ....... since this appears to be a genetic disorder, i just hope pakistan doesn`t make the same mistake with kashmir ....

shahgul: You are probably right on each of these indictments, or close enough. However, what is the answer? I present to you the following options:

a. The ``standard`` solution: Continue to equate Jews or Zionists with evil, and to provide examples of their misdeeds. Mullahs in Pakistan have been doing it for ages, whenever they are in the mood of polluting prayer time with politics. This is also the response of many middle class people in Pakistan, and the Pakistan government still refuses to have anything to do with Israel (decades after Egypt and Jordan recognized it, and Turkey too).

b. Seek to destroy Israel: This option is not going to happen, certainly not in the foreseeable future. And if it did it would be a very bad solution anyway. Reason I say this: Arabs have been their, done that. Even if they were to succeed and push all Israelis out to sea, remember that most Israelis are as decent a people as most muslims or other people - and two wrongs never make a right. The Quran repeats over and over again for people to be merciful and forgiving to one another, and this is not just morally the right thing to do, it is also good, practical advice to which we muslims should pay heed.

c. Seek to ``destroy`` an enemy by making that enemy a friend: This is the purpose of the peace process. Arafat may have already missed the boat on this by not making peace work with the Israelis doves, leading to the return to power of the hardliners. Sometimes it is more important to have peace than to have full justice. I have made the case elsewhere on chowk on this point (how land is no longer a factor of production anyway, knowledge is - and that is where there is no conflict of interest between different peoples of the world