Jihad: Paradoxes and Defining Moments

re. sadna: #492

``PM #various

Your effusive praise of sarwari has emboldened me to ask a few questions, esp since so many of you harp endlessly on a `hijacking` which has no connection with Pakistan as if it were a personal insult.``

Actually, if you`d check, you`d find that there is but one post of mine `effusively` praising Sawari, and in a very particular context (her #457 to two rabid posters).

The `hijacking` had no connection with Pakistan? Well, in the strictly factual sense, yes. However, suggestions by Inidan authorities/media that the hijackers demanded landing in Lahore, (remember `99?) do have the effect leaving a bad taste in the mouths of those Pakistanis who cannot simply laugh off the incompetence of the `hijackers`- especially given the sensitive times.

AS for you list of questions, are you (again) suggesting that because I hold nationality of a country that itself is involved in cross-border terrorism (or support thereof), I may not point out instances of other countries doing the same?

I`m assuming the questions were rhetorical, since you have no reason to belive that my sources of information are any better than your own.

rgds,

PM

PM:

``sarwari #457:

Good show! I do wonder why Pakistan didn`t do more to lampoon the Indians on the `hijacking` saga. ``

Uh, maybe a lack of a sense of humor at your end??

HobbyTy:

Publicly liberal, privately conservative - I had in mind politicians from very rich families. The Kennedy`s for example; how many of the poor white or blacks are among their personal friends?

Very true. Very much so. In that sense, I also find the liberal propensity to label black conservatives as Uncle Toms very irritating.

RSaxena/ MaheshG:

I`ll probably get whupped on this by you guys, but the WSJ reporter was wrong. India did not win the 65 war against Pakistan. It ended in a stale mate. Pakistan failed to achieve its objective of gaining Kashmir, so it did not ``win``, and India failed in its objective to carry the war deep inside Paki territory, so it did not ``win`` either.

The 1948 war is similar in scope and size. The Pakistanis made the initial advances against the Kashmiri Maharaja`s army. A bit of raping and looting on the side delayed their capture of Srinagar. The Indian Army did push them back to some extent, and then Nehruji went to UN. Again STALEMATE.

So Pakistan has never won a war against India, India did win in 1971.

PM, thanks for the vote of confidence. I am truly honored.

Let`s see now. YLH challenges us to come up with even one article of repute that supports our viewpoint.

RSaxena did that.

Then YLH goes around accusing RSaxena of making up stuff.

I just had to disprove that.

I am not claiming WSJ is the ultimate authority on India-Pakistan wars.

YLH, if he wanted, could have assumed that RSaxena was telling the truth and admitted that there are articles supporting India`s points of view too instead of accusing him to be a liar.

Re Mahesh G, Rsaxena, YLH

Here`s one more from that hindu-jewish propaganda rag called the Wall Street Journal in today`s issue--Sept 12. Read the op-ed by that famous Indian/RAW agent Najam Sethi called ``pakistan`s folly`` where he clearly states that Rabbani`s government is still recognized as legitimate by the united nations. Unfortunately the Opinion Journal Site does not carry this article and can only be accessed by paid subscribers to the wsj site or readers of the newspaper.

And if you get hold of the print issue, read the editorial ``Our Conrad`` as well.

Sadna # 495

I did read the articles. I only posted the links from Indian news sources to established the fact that MOsques did indeed were destroyed by Indian security forces in Indian Oppressed Kashmir. Mr. Al-Talib was in complete denial of any such happenings. I think I am the most scrutinized; scrutinized to the extent of persecution; guy on Chowk, second only to YLH. Therefore, I try not to BullSht.

PM #various
And having gotten it off my chest ( #492), might I enquire into the well being of Karachite chowkwallahs? From the press reports, one gets the sense that things are by and large under control, despite the burnings and firings. Hope that is true.

Urstruly #494
Either you havenot actually read the articles you have referenced (more likely) or you have sympathy for the anti-jihadi viewpoint (less likely).

Zafar Al-Talib

Here is some of the proof. Now a days it is hard to hide the information, but twisting it is still easy; one has to go through the torture of true disciples of Goebles i.e. Indian media to learn that. Let`s see how you twist this:

One incidence in june

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jun/12jk6.htm

4 more incidences in june.

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0601/40.html

Another incidence in june

http://www.indiainnewyork.com/india-news/jun2001/command.shtml

Incidences in May

http://news.indiainfo.com/spotlight/militancy/12topstory.html

Another website that gives some details of previous incidences

http://news.indiainfo.com/spotlight/militancy/12topstory.html


Zafar I think you get the idea. Now I hate you for wasting my precious time. But if you again accuse of fabrication. I will take a day off and put the whole data in tabular form. But before you made me do that, let me ask you that, what are you going to do about it. Keep looking the other way on the murder of people who just want a right to vote? Or you have moral courage to speak for them?

Zafar # 454

I still stand by my assertion that during May 2001 to Sep 2001 Indian Army has destroyed at least one mosque per week in Indian Oppressed Kashmir, with one pretext or other. The usual alibi for such horedous acts is that they were in hot pursuit of Kashmiri freedom fighters. The news sources, as I told you eralier were Indian media i.e. Z-TV and Door Durshan, BBC, and Paksitan news media that usually quotes BBC. I dont have data in tabular form but information is out their in any news source that you trust. I have absolutely no intention of winning an argument over such serious issues. But I will provide you the data in tabular form which could be verified by a click of a button. I am here at chowk and I know where to find you. But, what the heck, would you care to explain the following meanwhile. I have demanded the some explanation from Sadna and other Hindutva spokesmen Hindus but no one cares to expalin. Perhaps you would:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Pantheon/4789/Communalism/muslims_stat.htm

PM #various

Your effusive praise of sarwari has emboldened me to ask a few questions, esp since so many of you harp endlessly on a `hijacking` which has no connection with Pakistan as if it were a personal insult.

May I ask a few questions which are pertinent to Indians, which relate to credibility of Pakistanis and Pakistani leaders?fairdinkum is welcome to answer too.


1. Is the Friday Times correct in stating that the Army generals Usmani and Mehmud were removed for their sympathy for bin Laden and Taliban cause?

2. How many handshakes away is Osama bin Laden from Pakistan`s nuclear arsenal? Is that something that Pakistanis consider they have ``gotten right``, considering that pulverizing infidels and enemies of Islam including Indians is the oft-stated aim of bin Laden, a sentiment which has sympathy among Pakistanis (including sarwari, I might add)


3. Is it true like a Jang columnist states that a Pakistani leader has called for a nuclear strike on India in the Pakistani Senate?

(Shafqat Mahmood Friday Oct 12, jang.com.pk)

4. Secondly, is the famous smuggler Dawood Ibrahim in Karachi or not? Musharraf asserted in India that he wasnot, a Pakistani magazine Newsline said he was(and brought out a cover story on it). He is wanted in India for carrying out bombblasts which killed hundreds of people. Was Musharraf lying and who has the greater credibility here?

5. Was Musharraf lying when he said the fighting in Kashmir was a `indigenous struggle`?

5. Is it true that the ULFA(United Liberation Front of Assam) chief has been living in Karachi?

Aisha and YLH,

YLH lied about the article and I could easily prove that he lied. So, I did.

Matter closed.

YLH, just accept that you lied. You don`t complain to the cop when he is giving you a speeding ticket that other people were speeding too. Do you?

Sigalph

Surely not; after all India has enogh of that in itself. I mean you didn`t see the Home Minister of Bangladesh being indicted for the demolition of a temple did you?

LOL LOL...No No, you misunderstand. You see, India has the good fundamentalism, not the bad one you guys are prone to get. You see, there are good fundamentaists and there are bad fundamentalists, just like good terrorists and bad terrorists. ;)

Seriously though, I hope the opposition sticks to its promise of not indulging in hartals and strikes, like the previous one did. What a waste.

Otherwise, people end up blaming democracy, and welcome dictatorships as a sign of stability.

Stuka

First of all, sorry for the late reply.

Just seems to me that most of the really socially brave people I know, are generally more conservative, they seem to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak.

Publicly liberal, privately conservative - I had in mind politicians from very rich families. The Kennedy`s for example; how many of the poor white or blacks are among their personal friends?

Reply YLH # 454

“I ask Shammi, Dostmittar, Zafar Al Talib, Stuka, and Eklavya, to kindly point out and inform me where exactly have I lied? And if I have not, please ask your distinguished (read bigoted) countrymen to hold their tongue and have some respect...”

Yasser

This argument totally bores me and I suspect most of the people you’ve mentioned above (though I can’t speak for them, and btw thank you for the compliment) are bored by it too. I’ve been scrolling over it without reading it. But I will say that your request for intercession (?) would have more integrity if you had ever pulled up any Pakistanis for lying or exaggerating about India yourself. (Urstruly claiming that Indian security forces destroy one mosque a week in Kashmir is an example I can think of immediately, having been involved in that exchange myself, but there are probably some other instances where you could have been the guy with the white hat as well.) Otherwise, do ignore it and write about other stuff. (Your comments about Ahmediyas have been truly admirable. Good for you on that one.)

Best wishes,

Zafar

Reply Sarwari # 457

“There is nothing shameless about my judgement of Indian`s being superior to YLH`s.”

Shameless or conceited?