Jihad: Paradoxes and Defining Moments

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Connecting terrorism`s dots

Arnaud de Borchgrave

Dec. 27, 2001

Washington Times

In an attempt to avoid embarrassing Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, and to pre-empt any Indian campaign to extend the war against terrorism to cover terrorist training camps in Pakistan, the White House announced Dec. 20 it was blocking the assets of Lashkar-e-Taiba (LET) which it described as ``a Kashmiri terrorist organization that has conducted a number of operations against Indian troops and civilian targets in Kashmir since 1993.``

That was once over very lightly. If truth be known, the facts behind LET are identical to Osama bin Laden`s al Qaeda`s organization. The terrorists are interchangeable between both organizations. They were all trained in al Qaeda`s camps and some of bin Laden`s Afghan Arabs have already found refuge among LET`s ranks in Kashmir. The White House`s new formulation calls LET ``a stateless sponsor of terrorism.`` But LET is also Pakistan-based and Pakistan-sanctioned.

LET`s ranks consist of Pakistanis, Afghans, and Arabs led by Pakistani cadres. Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence agency oversees LET`s terrorist operations. Headquartered at Muridke outside Lahore, LET holds annual conclaves that are attended by serving and retired officers of ISI and the regular army, political leaders, and retired scientists of Pakistan`s nuclear establishment. LET`s terrorists are ``freedom fighters`` dedicated to ``the liberation of Indian-occupied Kashmir.`` Its political cover is called Marka-ud-Dawa-wal-Irshad (MDI), a fiercely anti-U.S. pseudo-religious, extremist organization.

LET`s last big meeting was held in Muridke April 13-15 and was attended by retired Gen. Hameed Gul, a former head of ISI and currently ``strategic adviser`` to Pakistan`s extremist religious parties; Retired Gen. Javed Nasir, another former ISI director general; Abdul Qadir Khan, the father of Pakistan`s nuclear bomb; Sultan Bashiruddin Mahmood, formerly with the Atomic Energy Commission and recently detained at the request of the U.S. for questioning about his meetings with Osama Bin Laden. The conference passed a resolution calling on its ``freedom fighters`` to capture Hindu temples, destroy the idols and hoist the flag of Islam on them.

ISI was tasked with ensuring that no journalists gained access to the meeting. But some did. The News reported on April 22 that LET ``operates six private military training camps in Pakistan and Kashmir where several thousand are given both military and religious education.`` The newspaper also reported that LET runs 2,200 recruiting offices across Pakistan and some two dozen ``launching camps along the Line of Control [LOC] in Kashmir,`` which makes it ``the biggest jihadi [holy warrior] network in Pakistan.``

No militant training center in Pakistan can operate without the consent of the army, now in power, and ISI, a state within a state whose chief reports only to Mr. Musharraf. Yet the government continues to be in a state of deep denial. Presidential spokesman Gen. Rashid Quereshi says, ``No group operating in Kashmir has any base in Pakistan.``

Mr. Musharraf is riding a terrorist tiger and is having trouble dismounting. Last May 18, Najam Sethi, the editor of ``Friday Times,`` an authoritative weekly journal, summed up the president`s dilemma: ``The Musharraf model seeks to covertly ally with the jihadi groups while overtly keeping the mainstream religious parties out of the power loop. This is to enhance and sustain its covert external agenda, while internally maintaining an overtly moderate anti-fundamentalist stance for the comfort of the international community whose economic support is critical to Pakistan`s financial viability.``

The terrorist attack against the Indian Parliament Dec. 13 was almost certainly the work of Jaish-e-Mohammed (Soldiers of the Prophet), another Pakistan-based terrorist organization. This writer found its slogans painted in towns and villages throughout the Pakistani tribal belt last week, to wit: ``Jaish-e-Mohammed and al Qaeda are Bubbling Blood Brothers`` and ``For Commando Training, Contact Jaish-e-Mohammed.`` The motive for the attack was most probably an attempt to disrupt the budding U.S.-Pakistani alliance and isolate Mr. Musharraf.

After ditching Taliban, it becomes increasingly harder for Mr. Musharraf to crack down on those who would Talibanize Pakistan. In fact, he released from detention the No. 1 religious extremist firebrand, Fazrul Rehman.

Mr. Musharraf is now caught between a rock and four hard places — Afghanistan where the anti-Pakistani, pro-Indian Northern Alliance holds the key government positions in the new coalition under Hamid Karzai; a hostile India on the edge of retaliatory action; a disloyal ISI; and a belligerent extremist clergy.

Despite the appointment of a Musharraf loyalist as the new head of ISI when U.S. bombing started last October, the powerful agency has not been responding to the president`s pro-American policies. One regional ISI general even went so far as to rattle tribal chiefs by telling them Pakistan would be next in America`s crosshairs after the defeat of Taliban. The secret organization continues to undermine him at every turn. The country`s principal political leaders are fearful of ISI. They draw the initials with their fingers in the air when the subject comes out lest they be heard by ubiquitous bugs. And they say nothing short of a top-to-bottom reform of ISI, followed by accountability to a yet-to-be-created national security council of civilian and military leaders, will bring the agency back to its proper place in the body politic.

The Taliban infrastructure in Pakistan emerged unscathed from Taliban`s defeat in Afghanistan. While ISI is officially cooperating with the U.S. in hunting down Taliban`s deposed leaders, senior Taliban officials are now resting comfortably in their second homes in Quetta and Peshawar, the two frontier towns where they had parked their families when the bombing started. One has even given an interview to a British newspaper. Another has given a ``religious lecture`` at the madrassa — the ``University for the Education of Truth`` — where he graduated in the town of Khattak. ISI is doubtless aware of these activities. But is Mr. Musharraf?

Belatedly, over the Christmas weekend, Mr. Musharraf decided to freeze the accounts of LET and Umma Tamee-e-Nau (UTN), the group the U.S. believes passed nuclear weapons data to Osama bin Laden. The LET chief then resigned. It is to be hoped that a thorough housecleaning of ISI is next on Mr. Musharraf`s must-do list as he returns from a weeklong state visit to China.

Arnaud de Borchgrave is editor at large of The Washington Times and of United Press International

http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20011227-79790204.htm

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My learned friend,

Let me tell you all about jihad:

There was a young Shiek named Osama;

His Pop`s courtesan was his Mama;

To cope he went far;

with the Mullah Omar;

To make the West pay for his trauma.

Religion is bunk.

Dan Foster

The Honest Men`s Club

Austin, TX

Re # 727 RDesikan

I am already detecting an anti-southern roachistani bias here. Are the so-called leaders listening?

Southern Rochistan bias? The management at la Bhoosalya feels pained that you think so, after all we do offer tempting southern dishes such as : Bhoosa Vada, Tomato & Bhoosa Rasam, Bhoosa Kara kari and Bhoosiyodharai. We do note the valid point you make about some of the dishes and are happy to inform our patrons that bhoosa masala dosa,medhu boosa vada and bhoosa avial will be on our menu soon. I do hope that gourmets like yourself will continue to help us in our quest to be the ultimate bhoosa dining experience. And on a happy note may I end by saying that Bhoosa Banarsi Paans are now available to our patrons at no extra charge.

On the role of heeng I believe that there are enough people on chowk quick to identify ``heeng oozers`` and may help you in the quest but here`s a link that may help :

www.hasmi.com/heeng.html

Jai Rochistan

Subroto

Re Post 744: RSridhar

Sridhar,

Actually according to my leader I am from this planet (for some reason his green antennae is twitching furiously today - keeps mumbling something about ``blowing your cover...``).

However if you wish I can uncork the bigot in me and post a few rabid rants here.

Regards,

Subroto

PS : On your previous posts on Naipaul, may I suggest reading ``A House for Mr Biswas`` if you have not already done so. A fine work far removed from rants against declining civilizations and religions.

rsridhar #744

[Subroto #722

I got only one question for you. Which planet are you from? You sure don`t sound or write like you are from planet earth.]

C`mon now... It definitely is one of the few really funny pieces in the recent past in Chowk.

Re:Reply #: 722

Subroto,

I got only one question for you. Which planet are you from? You sure don`t sound or write like you are from planet earth.

Sridhar

hamidm #151 ``.....so what do you expect me to listen to on my morning commute `` I think you will have no trouble finding something better to listen to early morning than Howard Stern discussing the male sexual organ, while his girl Friday dutifully giggles.

Sigalph:

I think Arrested Development is refering to Governer-General. I don`t know where he`s getting the Prime Minister stuff from.

Sarwari

``Kashmir is not a problem because India is secular and Pakistan is not. It is a consequence of ignoring the peoples will in Kashmir``.

That is interesting, so you seem to be unaware that kashmir is a jihadic border, there are many afghans, arabs and others infiltrating into kasmir to uphold the will of the kashmir people.

Now I understand that pakistan is country well know the world over as country that upholds the will of the people. Learn something about your country at least from chowk, at least from me, go and read the judgement of the lahore hogh court in upholding honour killing. Learn from me that the institutions of pakistan have no idea what so ever about the will of the people.

Go and read what is in the passport application form ahmadias, and try to understand what it means in terms of the will of the people.

Learn from me that sheria is the supreme law in pakistan, and that is why the jihadists are legal. Learn from me that the `sectarian` killings in karachi are not investigated, and no one arresyed because of the provisions of the sheria law.

Final lesson from me is that pakistan is an islamic country, and other members of the ummah has to be supported in the jiahadic mission and hence the killings in kashmir.

Kashmir is a problem in jihadic frontiers, there is no solving it, it can only be managed like malaria and other contagious deceases by vector control.

regards and best wishes.

jay

Re:Reply #: 728

Kafir k khan,

This is the most shameful and despicable act i have ever read or learned about. I am ashamed that such people exist in India and at least some of them are potential leaders of that country.

Sridhar

re arrested development 736

``...he would not have kept both Governorship & prime Minister post to himself``

Your facts are certainly quite arrested developmentally. Mr Jinnah was never the Governor of anything nor Prime Minister of any country.

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Ref Lajwanti $ 725:

``According to daily Pakistan a police officer ASI Shameem Gondal of Malka Hans had the habit of following a lady school teacher singing the mahiya songs of Mansoor Malangi loudly to seduce her into thinking of love. But the school teacher suddenly took off her burqa and started beating him up with her shoe. Other school girls accompanying her joined in and also beat him up with their shoes. After the beating it was discovered that one tooth of the thanedar ASI was broken but he was allowed to go only after he swore on a copy of the Quran and made the school teacher his sister.``

LOL. Now that is the Punjabiat I remember.

Thanks Lajwanti. Please say hello to Sudebaker et al.

scout: Further to my post below, I agree with what you say in the rest of the post. I think we need to distinguish between freedom of choice vs good taste.

I am all for freedom of choice. I dont have a major problem with anyone wearing clothes, hairdo, rings, in order to ``make a statement`` - the only statement they are making is ``I am in need of attention from strangers wherever I go``, and that is no skin off anyone else`s back. It is their business.

It is nevertheless poor taste to dress up in ways designed to attract attention. Like wearing shorts to a formal wedding, or a hijab to a shopping mall. And if one tried to limit poor taste by limiting freedom of choice, then clearly it is like giving chemotherapy to a person, causing his hair to fall out, when all he needed was a haircut.

However, if that person adds to this the kind of aggressive self-righteousness that you describe in some bibi hijabans, or sunday school teachers demanding girls wear the hijab at all times, that is perhaps the only time that one can justifiably object to it since they are now limiting the freedom of choice of other people.

scout #132 ``ps: if i get a tattoo, which i`ve always wanted to, would you think less of me?`` Depends upon the location and artwork of the tattoo...

Ref Lajwanti $ 725:

``According to daily Pakistan a police officer ASI Shameem Gondal of Malka Hans had the habit of following a lady school teacher singing the mahiya songs of Mansoor Malangi loudly to seduce her into thinking of love. But the school teacher suddenly took off her burqa and started beating him up with her shoe. Other school girls accompanying her joined in and also beat him up with their shoes. After the beating it was discovered that one tooth of the thanedar ASI was broken but he was allowed to go only after he swore on a copy of the Quran and made the school teacher his sister.``

LOL. Now that is the Punjabiat I remember.

Thanks Lajwanti. Please say hello to Sudebaker et al.

dost-mittar

``Even in Pakistani villages, happiness is one son in the Fauj and the other in Dubai.``

To each his own. In Kerala I guess bliss is one son in the CPM and the second in Dubai.

Kafir K Khan # 728

``Right in front of foreign visitors.``

That is serious and shouldn`t have been allowed

while the foreigners were still there :)))

bong_dongs #712
``By all accounts Paki military srategy for the last 20 odd years in Afghanistan and Kashmir has been brilliant. They have at little military cost to themselves managed to advance their political-military agenda.``

Its brilliant because they havenot been held accountable by the Pakistani people for as you say ``the effects on their own society``. Are complaisant Western funding agencies sufficient for the required economic growth, when will lack of political continuity and tense relations with a large neighbour like India really begin to bite?

If there is no civilian agenda fighting for air, a military one suffices. One doesnot miss what one cannot imagine :)

kafir khan #719 ``dead is dead. Nothing brave in dying. He can not have ras-malaai any more.``

Agreed:

Those who run away,

Live to eat dahi bhalay

That is why your humble servant never joined the army...

There was this Bholenath who was the combination of Jinnah and Einstein. He had the high ideals of Jinnah, secularism, tolerance and modernism. And he had the brains of Einstein to rattle of E=mc2 and the theory of relativity in a matter of seconds.

Unfortunately, he couldn`t impress his ideals on the world and dazzle the scientific world with his discoveries because he died before he could even start speaking. He died when he was one year old.

And how do I know he was as brilliant as Einstein and Jinnah combined? That`s because I say so.

Re subroto722

I am already detecting an anti-southern roachistani bias here. Are the so-called leaders listening?

You left out a few things...You haven`t lived till you have had bhoosa masala dosa or medhu boosa vada or bhoosa avial. And what about bhoosa paan? And for the chi chi folks including those urban doogoodies , you left out bhoosa infused zinfandels and merlots. That`s what I call real bhooze!

BTW, what is the role of heeng in bhoosa cuisine?Perhaps a gastronome could answer that one.

Banjaraa,

{{Ofcourse India does not want Pakistan or any part of it.We all know that.They just want to change the cartography of the area a la `71...yes??}}

Right on, boss:)

What W.Pakistan did in 71 was tantamount to dropping its pants, bending over & presenting its butt to India. Now what do you expect India to do? Kiss it?!:)

A swift kick was the order of the day!:)

Come on, be honest, if the tables were turned, do you think Pakistan would have done anything different?!:)

Nuggets from the Urdu press

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Nasibo Lal in trouble

According to Khabrain, folk singer Nasibo Lal, while singing at Gujranwala Arts Council, allowed fuhush (obscene) dancers like Alisha, Khushboo and Lashana, to perform lasciviously in front of a local audience. People responded with great enthusiasm although the event was against the rules of decency. They repeatedly performed bhangra while ignoring ideology of Pakistan.

Milosevic and Osama

Historian of Afghan jehad Raja Anwar, writing in Khabrain, said that if Milosevic could be brought under trial in an international court why couldn`t Pakistan or any other state ensure that Osama bin Laden is brought before an impartial court? He could be punished only if found guilty. Raja Anwar wrote that Afghanistan had given nothing to Pakistan but kalashnikov culture and was not willing to make any concession, not even on the Durand Line.

Mufti Shamzai`s fatwa

According to Nawa-e-Waqt, Mufti Shamzai of Karachi`s Banuri Mosque issued the fatwa that when the Americans land in Pakistan his followers should immediately take over the country`s airports. Fifty thousand followers did bayat-e-jehad (pledge of war) on his hand. He said anyone fighting on the side of Christians against Islam would go to hell.

Sharif brothers part ways

According to daily Din, Nawaz Sharif and Shehbaz Sharif fell apart in their hideaway in Saudi Arabia and that Shehbaz Sharif had bought a residence of his own separately from the family still led by Abbaji. The paper opined that since Shehbaz had decided to part ways with the family he may lose Saudi financial help.

Pakistan`s paradox

Renowned columnist Nazeer Naji wrote in Jang that Pakistan had a strange history of upheavals. Bhutto, a liberal, chose a fundamentalist officer General Zia for promotion to army chief, who overthrew him and converted Pakistan into a fundamentalist state. Bhutto was a secularist but spent more time banning alcohol in Pakistan and apostatising the Ahmedis to please the mullahs. The initial paradox was that Jinnah was a secular leader who was opposed by the mullahs, but later Pakistan was to be moulded in the vision of not Jinnah but mullahs. Then General Zia chose Nawaz Sharif as his heir but in 1997 he was elected for his economic policies; instead he chose to enforce shariat after coming to power. But for a man devoted to shariat he chose General Musharraf, a non-Islamist, to head the army. General Musharraf who toured the cantonments to defend Nawaz Sharif for sacking an earlier chief, was later to remove Nawaz Sharif. And an Islamist army was now ready to get rid of the jehadi mullahs and rid the state of fundamentalism. Nawaz Sharif was opposing his anti-Taliban policy from Saudi Arabia although his brother chief minister Punjab Shehbaz Sharif had clearly said during his tenure that the Taliban were training the terrorists targeting Pakistani leaders.

What will Pakistan give?

Famous columnist Irshad Haqqani wrote in Jang that Pakistan and the US had discussed the matter of Pakistan`s offering landing facilities during the invasion of Afghanistan but there was no discussion on territorial rights. But General Hameed Gul, through a letter, said that he had trimmed his anti-Musharraf position when assured by him that neither land nor landing facilities would be granted to the American troops.

US to take intelligence help

Famous columnist Hussain Haqqani wrote in Jang that during the Afghan war the Americans used Pakistani intelligence to fight the Soviet Union but this cooperation was not really beneficial; but this time, he hoped, it would be more fruitful. This was a crucial point of time in the Pak-US relations.

Osama wanted me killed!

Leader of the PPP Ms Benazir Bhutto said in daily Din that Osama bin Laden paid Nawaz Sharif of the PML ten million dollars to topple her from government through the device of a no confidence vote. She said that Osama also planned to get her killed, but his plans failed twice.

Present land holding against Islam

According to daily Din, Council of Islamic Ideology came to the conclusion that the present land holdings in Pakistan were against Islam and must be undone because the child born in the house of a feudal lived in luxury while the one born in the house of a poor man was deprived. In the past, land reforms were undone by the Federal Shariat Court on the question of annexation of land without payment of market price.

Beaten up for singing `mahiya`

According to daily Pakistan a police officer ASI Shameem Gondal of Malka Hans had the habit of following a lady school teacher singing the mahiya songs of Mansoor Malangi loudly to seduce her into thinking of love. But the school teacher suddenly took off her burqa and started beating him up with her shoe. Other school girls accompanying her joined in and also beat him up with their shoes. After the beating it was discovered that one tooth of the thanedar ASI was broken but he was allowed to go only after he swore on a copy of the Quran and made the school teacher his sister.

It is not aunt`s home!

According to Nawa-e-Waqt, ex-ISI chief General Hameed Gul said that after the Taliban shot down two unmanned spy planes of the United States, the Americans were bound to run away from the battle field. He said all would soon be well because defeating the Taliban was not khala ji ka ghar (easy as being in one`s aunt`s home).

Zia wanted Afghanistan

Quoting a journalist once close to General Zia, Maqbul Sharif, daily Pakistan wrote that General Zia did not want the Russians to leave Pakistan at the end of the Afghan war. He wanted the question of a new government in Kabul resolved before their exit. In fact he wanted to send Pakistani troops to Kabul in the same manner that India had sent its troops to East Pakistan.

Jehadi organisations are fake

Quoted in Jang, ex-ISI chief General Javed Ashraf Qazi said that 90 percent of the organisations engaged in jehad in Kashmir were fake. Hew said leaders like Maulana Fazlur Rehman and Maulana Samiul Haq were interested only in amassing funds and advancing their political ends. If they were sent to Afghanistan to fight they would jump out of the bus and run away. He said in the past the Taliban were warned many times that because of them Pakistan was being labelled a terrorist state but they did not listen.

Israel did it!

Talking to daily Pakistan, Sipah Sahaba chief Maulana Azam Tariq said that those who attacked New York and Washington should be sought in Israel and India because Osama bin Laden was blameless. He said if Afghanistan was attacked he would issue fatwa for the murder of Americans and Israelis. He said America wanted to attack Pakistan`s nuclear installations while pretending to attack Afghanistan. He added that there would be civil war in Pakistan if Islamabad continued to support the Americans.

Hekmatyar will join Taliban!

Editor Ausaf Hamid Mir wrote that if Pakistan were to sever relations with the Taliban in the wake of similar action by the UAE and Saudi Arabia, it will force two offended Afghan leaders, Hekmatyar and Sayyaf, to join the Taliban and make an anti-Pakistan alliance. This new alliance will stop the advance of the Northern Alliance but Pakistan would be forever deprived of the friendship of its precious Afghan brethren.

Allah will answer Mulla Umar`s call!

According to Khabrain Mulla Umar of Afghanistan had prayed to Allah for special intervention against the American attack, as a result of which Allah had sent down a storm off the coast of Karachi as a sign. Before this, Salahuddin Ayubi had also prayed like Mulla Umar and his prayer was heard and a Christians army was caused to be gharq (sunk) by Allah.

A Lahori heir to Afghan throne speaks out!

According to daily Din, Ashraf Durrani of Lahore was discovered to be in the line of descent of Ahmad Shah Abdali Durrani who established the first Afghan empire. Ashraf Durrani formally laid claim to the throne of Afghanistan and stated that the Afghan people were not satisfied with the government of the Taliban. He also laid claim to the diamonds presently owned by the Queen of England and said that the diamond had belonged to his ancestor Shah Shuja.

Allama Iqbal`s joy

Famous historian Dr Safdar Mehmood wrote in Nawa-e-Waqt that Allama Iqbal would have been overjoyed to see that the civilisation of the West was no longer obsessed by women but by a bearded man called Osama bin Laden.

Ms Mazari is anti-America

According to Ausaf, former chairman of the state-run Institute of Strategic Studies in Islamabad, Mr Niaz A. Naik, wrote to the Foreign Office saying that the present chairman of the institute, Dr Shireen Mazari, was anti-American and was harming the interests of Pakistan by writing against the United States. The paper said that upon an inquiry made by the Foreign Office, ex-foreign minister Agha Shahi stated that she had criticised the United States while defending the interests of Pakistan.

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RE: Jay

``The real contribution of jinnah is the reification of TNT, bringing into reality, an abhorant devisive idea. The greatness if at all of jinnah is comparable to that of another great leader in europe with a funny mush during WW 2 who also fired up a nation on a divisive theory.``

Seems you and your minister Singh are of the same caliber when it comes to understanding the reason for Pakistan. I believe you also look like him.

The Two Nation theory applies to any community where one has leverage over the other in socio-political terms and specifically if there seems to be a status quo of this trend sliding into the economic stagnation of one community while the other progresses. Now this is true of any demographic variable, be it men or women, higher castes or Dalits and Hindus or Muslims.

After the making of Pakistan, this theoretical idea automatically vanished... for the principle under which Pakistan was made ought to be the same principles that the minorities of Pakistan should be secured under. Unfortunately the reason most Indian`s have nurtured this TNT illusion is (1) it gives them a satisfaction of being morally high by condemning the lack of ideal security that Pakistani minorities face. (2) Muslims extended the TNT into a pan-Islamic ideal and almost did what they were running from, and became over-zealous in their attempt to reform.

Given that, I ask you to kindly make educated statements about this. Kashmir is not a problem because India is secular and Pakistan is not. It is a consequence of ignoring the peoples will in Kashmir.

As far as Jinnah goes he is respected by many because it is after a long struggle of his life that he was almost forced to come to represent the Muslim community`s interests separately from India. He did not take any positional power to be his solace, and that is a matter of pride for us. The cost of all the problems was far less valuable than Pakistan`s creation.

By comparing Jinnah to Hitler which your kind always do, including Nehru, you show your raw insecurity in Pakistan having a founder such as Jinnah. I only wish you would practice the things you much dwell on in terms of the legacy of your founder.

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari.

Sridhar # 721

``Indira Gandhi was not willing to pay such a high price as she would have been routed in elections that followed and her party would have lost popularity with the masses. So, democracy won the day in the end.``

It was not democracy but the ``kursi``that won the

day.

Regards.

Welcome one and all to Bhoosa Bhojanalya (or la Bhoosalya for the ethic chic)

Starters:

Bhoose ki Chatpati Tikki : Spiced raw bhoosa patties stuffed with dates, raisins and deep fried.

Hariyali Paneer & Bhoosa Tikka

Paneer/cottage cheese and fresh bhoosa marinated with fresh mint and coriander, skewered and cooked in a tandoor.

Bhoosa Vada

Synonymous with Southern Roachistan, it is a deep fried snack made from fermented black bhoosa paste accompanied by chutney and sambar.

Soups & Stews

Bhoosa Shorba

A spiced, tempered, thin bhoosa soup. Very popular with Northern Rochistanis.

Tomato & Bhoosa Rasam

Tangy and spiced tomato and bhoosa based broth made from pigeon gram.

Main Course

Achari Bhoosa with Mutton

A tongue tickling bhoosa preparation made from a blend of spices to give a hot and tangy flavor mixed with a liberal helping of mutton.

Malai Bhoosa

A creamy rich tomato gravy with bhoosa dumplings.

Kolhapuri Bhoosa with Chicken

A fiery, mouthwatering bhoosa and chicken preparation cooked in brown coconut paste from the western Rochistan.



Bhoosa Kara kari

A spicy, tempered bhoosa preparation.



Dals & Pulses

Rochistan dey Dhabey di Bhoosewali Dal

A popular mixed lentil and bhoosa preparation dished up in stalls on the highways in North Rochistan.

Bhoosa Makhani

A black bhoosa and kidney beans preparation served as an accompaniment with Rochistani bread.

Breads

Bhoosa ka Bhatura

Deep-fried bhoosa bread leavened with yogurt. A North Rochistan specialty served with Chole.

Bhoosa Bhakri

A typical Rochistan farmer`s bread.

Tandoori Bhoose ki Roti

Bhoosa rotis cooked in the tandoor.

Rice

Bhoosa and Pea Pulao

Rice preparation made with bhoosa and green peas.



Bhoosiyodharai

Tamarind flavoured, tempered bhoosa & rice preparation of South Rochistan.

Sprouted Bhoosa Khichdi

Rich in nutrition, a preparation of sprouted bhoosa.

Salads & Raitas

Bhoosa Raita

An unusual, flavoured, spiced yogurt and bhoosa preparation.

Mixed Vegetable & Bhoosa Raita

A healthy yogurt, bhoosa and mixed vegetable preparation.

Desserts

Kesari Bhoosay ki Phirni

Saffron flavored blend of bhoosa paste and milk.



Lychee aur Bhoosay ki Kheer

Lychee flavoured milk and bhoosa pudding

Bhoosa Halwa

A sweet, tempting delicacy of bhoosa, to be eaten hot in cold winters.

Bhoosay Ka Meetha

An exquisite dessert made from bhooosa stuffed with date mixture, baked and served with condensed flavoured milk.



So welcome to the bhoosa dining experience, we also have a range of fine bhoosa wines available.

Re: Reply #: 704

shankar,

``India`s objective in 71 was NEVER to annex West Pakistan.``

I read something interesting sometime ago. It seems Indira Gandhi was not averse to pressing on the western front even after Bangladesh was liberated. 2 things dissuaded her:

1. Tremendous pressure from USA (even Soviet Union)to limit the war to the Eastern front and

2. India`s democracy.

The latter may come as a surprise to many Pakistanis on chowk. The truth is, when Indira Gandhi asked her Generals if it was possible to win the war on the western frontier, they were supposed to have said: Yes, it was possible but at a terrible price. They put the no. of armymen dead at more than 100,000 i she were to go ahead with war on the western front. Indira Gandhi was not willing to pay such a high price as she would have been routed in elections that followed and her party would have lost popularity with the masses. So, democracy won the day in the end. Wonder what would have happened if India were ruled by a dictator at that time. A dictator would not have bothered about electoral backlash.

(let noone think i am indulging in wishful thinking here. I am not. I am only pointing an interesting observation. If so, I may be wrong and i stand corrected).

Sridhar

Re:Reply #: 712

bong_dongs,

``By all accounts Paki military srategy for the last 20 odd years in Afghanistan and Kashmir has been brilliant.``

So brilliant that Pakistan today faces the prospects of a civil war. All India has to do is to sit tight and watch.

Sridhar

FAME ON CRUTCHES,

Most pakistanis believe that Jinnah is great leader of world standing, who made contributions to the well being of mankind. They cannot point out what these contributions are, but rely on the crdibility, that is postional credibility, of peole with jobs ant harward etal and quotes them to say that jinnah is great.

The real contribution of jinnah is the reification of TNT, bringing into reality, an abhorant devisive idea. The greatness if at all of jinnah is comparable to that of another great leader in europe with a funny mush during WW 2 who also fired up a nation on a divisive theory.

An observation:

Every Paki (male atleast) here seems to have family in the armed forces or atleast has a keen interest in military affairs.

The sociology of such a highly ``militarised`` society must be interesting :-)

Re: ylh

Alright dude, now I feel bad for pushing your buttons.

So let`s see, there must be something we agree on. Let me try. You like restaurants? What kind? Like to go out? Have any favorite drinks, if you drink at all? What about girls? Surely you must like girls. Blondes? Brunettes? Psuedo-liberated desi girls? Maybe behenji types? What about cars? Have any favorites you want to buy yourself some day? Like to travel? Europe? East Asia? Must be something an evil Paki like you and an evil Indian like me might agree on...no?

re: tahmed321 # 708

tahmed321,

Thanks for clarifying that. Some of the laajawab rotis I miss in Yankee land include

chane (besan) ki roti

bajrae ki roti

makki ki roti

jawar ki roti.

I have not tried Bhoosae ki roti (yet), but hey, if in some hands straw can turn into gold, I am sure in other hands straw can turn into a delicacy :)

Shankar # 704

``Get this straight in your head. India DOES NOT want Pakistan back. Nor does it covet any part of Pakistani real estate. Even, POK.``

Ofcourse India does not want Pakistan or any part of it.We all know that.They just want to change the cartography of the area a la `71...yes??

Regards.

Subroto # 702

``Keep calling each other names - ``hindu chutiye``, ``musalman gandu`` and watch how the rest of the world leaves you far behind.``

My friend ! it has done that a long time ago. :(

Regards.

Ref Sadna

``The Pakistani military IS cowardly. It is afraid to fight a war with India in the open and has depended on surrogates to do its fighting for many years(remember Kargil)``

What is cowardly for one person is considered intelligent by the other. By all accounts Paki military srategy for the last 20 odd years in Afghanistan and Kashmir has been brilliant. They have at little military cost to themselves managed to advance their political-military agenda.

Now when it comes to affects these have had on their own societies they are not paid to (or have the expertise to) evaluate or factor it into their calculations. This is drawback of havng a military led foreign and domestic policiy.

whoops! ... correction

Those with I.Q.`s LOWER than 80 would NOT posses the requisite attention span to read or listen to anyhting more than a few minutes worth of news (sensationalism), and so would naturally only choose the latter in each case. :) Details to them would be imcomprehensible, and so dismissed as `blah blah blah`.

Good thing bad comprehension comes with having sub-80 IQ!

tahmedsahab:

course theres bhoosae kee roti tahmed sahab..but nothing like baesan kee roti....have u had that? very very difficult to make but verry delicious

shankar #704 ``When it comes to bravery, skill & patriotism, Pakistanis & their military rank very high up there.``

Thanks shankar - I come from a military family and some of the folks of the previous generation whom I most admire have indeed served in the military with ``bravery, skill and patriotism``. Now please hang in their as the Hate Paki Club members on chowk proceed as usual to insult you for having the guts to be positive about Pakistanis.

anNy #705 ``bhoosae kee roti``

Is there such a thing? I know makee kee roti is very nice. But I never hear of bhoosae kee roti (straw bread). Unless you are suggesting that some of us on chowk are in fact farm animals, happily tapping away on the internet when the farmer looks the other way...

I suspect some of us on chowk could indeed be cows or goats having fun provoking the south asian humans on chowk insult one another...

Ref YLH #: 687

[In the meantime, Pakistan-obsessed Indians like Rsaxena, Gowardhan, Harimau, Jay, Sadna, etc can go and shove something up their rearsides...]

We normally expel something thru our rearides. It is usually Pakistanis who take things up their rearsides.

PS. Tahmed123, you can go wild over this post too.

shankar
The Pakistani military IS cowardly. It is afraid to fight a war with India in the open and has depended on surrogates to do its fighting for many years(remember Kargil):

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=3645

Jaish threatens suicide attacks against India

Press Trust of India

Srinagar, October 18: Close on the heels of Lashkar-e-Toiba threatening to step up violence, another Pakistan-based militant outfit Jaish-e-Mohammad has warned of intensified suicidal attacks across India.

The central command of Jaish-e-Mohammad has decided to intensify suicidal attacks in retaliation to the ``indiscriminate`` shelling on civilian population by Indian troops in Akhnoor and Mendhar sectors and the threat by VHP to construct Ram temple at the disputed site of Ayodhya, a statement of the outfit said on Thursday.

The statement, which appeared in a local newspaper, said Delhi, Mumbai, Uttar Pradesh, Parliament and Assemblies besides Indian army installations would be targeted in the new wave of attacks.

Meanwhile, military spokesman of the outfit Abu Hamza denied that the name of the outfit was changed to Tehreek-ul-Furqan. ``It (change of name of the outfit) is not true,`` the spokesman said, adding ``we will never change the name of our group?.

``The name of the group has remained Jaish-e-Mohammad. It is still Jaish-e-Mohammad, and it will remain Jaish-e-Mohammad,`` Hamza said in the statement. The outfit had claimed responsibility for the October 1 suicidal attack on the state Kashmir Assembly which claimed life of 34 civilians and four militants.

yasser:

``delusional little bhoosa bhara mind``

bhoosae kee roti is very nice; must u malign it with such associations yasser?

ylh,

I`m not saying that the Pakistani military is cowardly. Far from it. When it comes to bravery, skill & patriotism, Pakistanis & their military rank very high up there.

Americans have armed & trained the PAF. Naturally, they know the PAF`s prowess better than the IAFs. There is no doubt in my mind that the PAF is a magnificent fighting force.

Having said that, it seems to me that in your eagerness to thump your chest, you sound as if they have repeatedly trounced India. If they were that good, at least Pakistan would have used its military to take over IOK & not resorted to a guerella war in Kashmir. The fact is that Pak has tried 3 times to wrest Kashmir from India by conventional warfare & failed.

Then Pakistanis put a ``spin`` on the outcome of the war:

1)Indians are numerically superior, so we ``won`` because they did`nt take Lahore.

2)Horner & Yaeger et all say our PAF is great

3)India took E.Pakistan because it was a very uneven match

4) The US betrayed us when we needed them.

Let me counter those arguments

1) Get this straight in your head. India DOES NOT want Pakistan back. Nor does it covet any part of Pakistani real estate. Even, POK.

Yes, at the time of Partition, Indians were opposed to it. However, many Pakistanis have this paranoia (perpetuated by your military) that India wants to gobble up Pakistan. 50+ yrs have passed & the 2 countries have taken different paths. You will be happy to know that the dreaded concept of ``re-integration`` is just as unpalatable to Indians as it is for Pakistanis.

Granted India is no paradise. But think of it, why would Indians want to rule a country that has been unable to rule itself since its independance?! Jeeze, in 54 years (to the best of my knowlege--I could be wrong) NOT ONE Pakistani PM/President has relinquished power democratically. Lord knows India has its own problems--they dont want yours --thank you very much!! Taking over Pakistan is like eating a rotten piece of meat & dying of food poisoning.

You can thump your chest about Jinnah--but get real; in today`s Pakistan, he is an anachronism.

India opened a second front in 65, as a part of military strategy. You really think they wanted to annex Pakistan? Hah, if they did, they would have kept Bangladesh to themselves in 71. The whole objective of 65 was to wrest IOK. That DIDNT happen; despite the gallant PAF! So spin it any way you want; the bottom line wont change.

2) In the 550+ page book ``Every Man A Tiger``. Horner wrote ONE OR TWO SENTENCES about the PAF. Jeeze! You guys continue to harp about it like it was the whole topic of the book! Besides, he says PAF is India`s biggest nightmare. He DOESNT say Pakistan won the war or the IAF stinks!

Yaeger is an ultimate narcicisst. That doesnt mean he`s wrong. But the guy likes to praise everything he`s involved in. If he played such a big role in overseeing the PAF; surely he wont put it down. He`s not so complimentary about your Armuy or Navy. The guy is biased--not wrong; but biased.

3)In 71 India took over East Pakistan in 2 weeks. Did they get a drubbing on the Western front?! far from it! It took an entire World coalition more than 2 weeks to take over tiny Kuwait in the Gulf war. OK, maybe thats comparing apples to oranges. India`s objective in 71 was NEVER to annex West Pakistan.

Using a similar analogy, I guess Saddam Hussein can boast how the heroic Iraqi military frustrated the Coalitions attempts to annex Iraq. So Iraq won the war! Kuwait--heck the Iraqi army was hopelessly outnumbered by the combined strenght of some of the most powerful militaries in the world. So all that they could accomplish was to retake tiny Kuwait! Big deal; it was the bravery of Iraqi soldiers that prevented them from marching into Bagdad! I`m sure he`s saying that! Thats the power of spin doctoring:)

4) The main reason the US supplied some of its most advanced weapons to Pakistan was to fight COMMUNISM. Not use them against the largest democracy in the world. Pakistan just loooves taking US aid. After Israel & Egypt, Pakistan has recieved the most amount of aid from the US. As long as aid flows from the US, America is a friend. When it stops, Pakistan cries BETRAYAL! Like aid without conditions is an entitlement & a birthright--get real!

{{In the final assessment heroics do matter... ever see `Tin Cup` starring Kevin Costner and Don Johnson?}}

Yeah yeah:) Like the brave Polish cavalry charging the German Panzers! Big whoop.

Yes heroics matter; but its not the be all & end all. It takes a heck of a lot more than heroics to win a war!

Its like losing a tennis match & boasting ``did you see how my ace services blew the guy away! he did`nt stand a chance!!``.

Er--yoohoo moron, you LOST the match!! Remember!

OK, now I`m getting sick of this tu tu mein mein. This is not meant to change your mind or mine. You believe what you want to believe. There`s a joke in India ``if India killed everbody in Pakistan; except one person--that person will loudly proclaim Pakistan won the war; & believe it; like it was gospel truth!!``

PM

Have you been smoking funny cigarettes lately? Alas! if you could only say these things before the tragedy in Afghanistan started happening.

So 36 years on we are still getting agitated over who won the 1965 war. Brave soldiers (from both sides) having moved on, but seems like some of us have nothing else to do but claim victory. (phyrric victory bolta pur spellchequer, er checker nahi hai to kya karoon).

Try extending a hand of friendship mates, if you have nothing else to do. Is there any point carrying the burden of the animosities of the past 50 years on our shoulders? Keep calling each other names - ``hindu chutiye``, ``musalman gandu`` and watch how the rest of the world leaves you far behind.

And thanks to all those who in the midst of all this were posting wedding songs - helps in diluting the hatred.

Jai Rochistan!

Reply YLH # 628

“Are RSS, Shiv Sena, and VHP in the coalition Government in India? If yes, can we safely say that Vajpayee has terrorist connections?”

Why, has Vaju been smuggling heroin?

Reply Audio-video-radio # 693

“Vandalisation of Taj Mahal by SIMI is deplorable.”

?????

re. #679

Sridhar,

thanks for the reply. However, I couldn`t help notice, that as much as you criticized American self-interest in foreign policy, you stopped short of characterizing it as criminal. ditto their bombing of Bagdad and now Afghanistan.

`Self Interest` is such an innocuous, even respectable term in today`s world. Encouraging oppressive regimes abroad while touting the values of freedom and democracy at home, in my mind goes waaay beyond even Machivillian self-interest. It is sheer hypocrisy and even tyranny.

As for the current bombimgs, the US first said that the objective was to destroy the Taliban`s air defense system, to make it safe for their choppers to go in and grab Ossama. That was accomplished in three days. But I guess terrorizing thounsands of hapless civilians and killing a few hundreds is an acceptable price to pay for `swift`, safe and infinite `justice`. ``Enduring Freedom``!!. Yeah, right!

re ylh:

``I ask everyone whose analysis would they rather accept:

General Charles Horner or NYT`s staff writer?

General Chuck Yeager or Daniel Lak of BBC?

Jane`s Defence Weekly or Wall Street Journal?

Mj G Donald Shephard or Indian Army`s Chief?``

Yasser, my guess is that IQ would be the chief determitant in choice here. Those with I.Q.`s higher than 80 would posses the requisite attention span to read or listen to anyhting more than a few minutes worth of news (sensationalism), and so would naturally only choose the latter in each case. :) Details to them would be imcomprehensible, and so dismissed as `blah blah blah`.

But what to expect from street vendors who try to play the `fedual mentality` card when you simply excuse their ignorance as not their own fault? Why suffer ye them any longer?

rgds,

PM

P.S. The anti-Indian monster is rearing it`s ugly head just a wee bit again. Almost understanable in the circumstances, but Yasser, remember, it`s times like these that test and build one`s ability to resist stereotyping and generalizing. Don`t stoop. That would be `their` victory.

re. RSaxena

``And Patricia M, feel free to join [ylh].``

You poor, poor thing! No wonder you don`t run to your Mummi like you claim ylh does. Gee she must have been really really nasty with with you in your (early) childhood for you to have an opinion of womanhood that lends itself, in your eyes, to sarcasm.

And another thing... you used to be half funny. What happened?

Oh lordy lordy lordy....who put the fire on ylh`s behind?

7 posts in response to continued humiliation? First, ``no such line exists in WSJ article.`` MaheshG posts it. Sting. Then, ``WSJ is blah blah blah.`` I post CNN link. Sting. Then, to light fire to the stinging feeling comes shrinker with his BBC post.

``He works on the Wall street as a street vendor selling fruit.``

Maybe in the Pakistani feudal culture you come from, that is something to be looked down upon, but in the civilized world there is nothing wrong in earning an honest dollar.

Chandra #86 Thank you, sir.

Shankar,

In the final assessment heroics do matter... ever see `Tin Cup` starring Kevin Costner and Don Johnson?

If heroics didnt matter woud Tipu Sultan be a famous hero... after all, Tipu Sultan didnt win any wars especially by your standards.

-YLH

Rkr372

This was a fun read but became increasingly more difficult to digest. The assertions in this work, the singular ideological thrust of moral superiority, made me uneasy.

The introduction of your paper is suggests a fundamental flaw in the foundation of the points you seek to make. While the advent of democracies was and remains important, the event of fundamental import was the slow development of a capitalist class and the capitulation of the mercantilist. It is this chain of events that is the practical foundation of democracies. Examine any authoritarian system, and you will see that significant numbers of the subject population do not enjoy any manner of ownership. Would Democracies have any advent to speak of were it not for the defeat of mercantilism? The development of truly global markets, plundered resources and labor?

In overlooking this aspect of analysis and historicity, you are not convincing in some of the other assertions that follow:



1. To assert or deny the idealism that was the constant companion of American founders is not at issue. What were the practical foundations of that idealism? are persons struggling for mere survival, good candidates as intellectual engines socio-economic-political change? The issue is economics. Founders and their financial backers raised the slogan of “No taxation…” While liberty was certainly important, more telling of the nature of the American revolutionary movement, is the emphasis on the crush of taxation and the continued importance of the international molasses trade, of the crown wanted a greater share. Slavery, within its context, was a significant economy in itself and as for the abolition of Slavery being cause of the civil war, well, that’s plain self-serving. None can deny that the abolitionist movement was primarily inspired by religious and moral ethic. Yet the industrialization of the North and the dramatic global demand for cotton and textiles, and invention of mechanization and industrialization of agricultural processes, posed a tremendous challenge to the economy of the South and in particular to it’s elite. This elite, conscious of the challenge, yet unwilling to incur the loss of cheap labor and the cost of investment, choose an obstinate and vindictive course. To view this conflict as struggle between the global sweep of the power of markets and the economy of industrialization and between an elite and a culture unwilling to cultivate it’s interest in this coming change. Jack Weatherford, in his work, “Indian Givers” argues convincingly that by the time of the Civil war, Slavery had become a net loss maker for the South.

Thus, from the beginning, the American freedom struggle was as much about liberty to pursue the economic interests without the crush of taxation and unreasonable mercantile policies of the Crown. Liberty as an economic, social and political, even religious value was poised to deliver and mercantilism was in retreat in the face of new economic class, arguing the cause of a Liberal orientation in the corridor of English power. To posit a naïve and innocent coat for the American polity is to invite unreason. Recall that the ideals of America are deeply entwined with notions of trade, markets, prosperity, and the liberty to purse these interests.

“To what extent should the foreign policy of a Democracy reflect its ideals as opposed to its hard headed practical interests?”

Too broad! after all “a Democracy” is bound in time and space and the limits of compulsion and coercive power it can exercise. However, Ok – withdrawn for a general argument’s sake. Yet, is human nature different in a Democracy? Are national interests different in a Democracy, from an authoritarian state? But I suspect your argument is not one of determining or pursuing practical national interests, but is more in line of an ideological discourse, as your choices of historical facts you present and those you chose not to call upon, suggests a discussion of exactly what structures and functions of a Democracy are similar and dissimilar and what we have chosen to call a “Democracy”, actually refers to. Certainly, the size and distribution of the elite cannot serve to distinguish between a “Democracy” and “societies governed by a small groups of elite”, a small elite or a larger elite may both be representative, perhaps we may seek succor in differentiating between the degrees of choice and representation. But, OK lets examine how the formation and execution of foreign policy may differ amongst these. Now the unexamined assertions of an unexamined ideology:

Democracies do not go to war with each other, owing to the fact that a brad based polity understands that it`’ sons and daughters will do the fighting and suffering. Prompting: Democracies go to war with authoritarian societies, because broad based polities understand that it’s son and daughters will do the fighting and suffering or better still, broad based polities (read democracies) go to war with authoritarian societies because the fathers, mothers, son and daughters, in those societies do not understand that they will do the fighting and the suffering.

But for a conscience…

“Consider the question of injustice. For the elite at the top of an authoritarian society, almost by definition: it’s not their problem. Often it is, in fact, their doing.” Indeed! Shall be then expect to see the undersecretary, congressman and the rich, in fatigues, headed tot he front?

“ …separation and isolation that characterize the lives of these elite does what separation and isolation often are seen to do – open the door to evil. In a broad polity the experience has been that our human ability to empathize with others is not suppressed. It remains active.”

This perhaps explains the obscenity of dropping food to the starving, while bombing the @#$% out of them. Who says compassion does not move mountains? Who dare argue the morality and the sanity of the richest in the world asking their children to donate a Dollar for their victims, even as the richest in world spend #30 million Dollars an hour, justifying the notion that to smoke out some rats from your house, “Dolce et Decorum EST” to cause you to be dispossessed and your home destroyed. Who would dare, whom amongst us? Would question political motivations or economic compulsions? Who questions the righteousness of the broad based, the rich and above all, the militarily powerful?

For broad based polities did deliberate much, argued the merits of evidence much, argued amongst each much as to who was first to offer support in a war, the culprit having been identified within the first few hours of the atrocity, by the investigative agencies of the state, indeed media have a point of view and the broad based polity was a right to embrace the passions in which sons of and daughters must sacrifice, who will deny “Democracies, in both domestic and foreign matters, will tend to move slowly and with deliberation (barring the obvious exigencies of crisis.)” Obviously! Reason has become a crisis.

“ Foreign policy for Democracies.

To sum up.

1 – Despite presenting volatile, brilliant surfaces (highlighted by their media), democracies tend to move relatively slowly, with deliberation. Consensus takes time. “ Do you mean consensus among the elite?

“2 – European and American societies have used Real Politik as their “default option” for a long while. Besides its inevitable appeal to hardheaded common sense, it possesses a cachet of success in our experience that provides a momentum in favor of its continued use. [I would be inclined to observe, however, that anything that broke down so spectacularly with WWI and followed it up with WWII might not deserve an uncritical acceptance.] “ Cachet of success”, to what specifically are you referring? Riots and demonstrations from Africa to South East Asia?

“3 – Democracies, governed from a broad base, tend to retain a deep bias in favor of societal arrangements in harmony with our instincts for a principled and just society, although one to be approached pragmatically”. Listen carefully, “Principled and just society” is not an instinct. An instinct is a biological imperative to further survival. “Principled and just society” is a moral and legal construct. I love where your heart is, but where your head is, I’m not too sure.

More unexamined ideology: “First it must reflect such standards and values as those societies hold dear internally. Second, it should not envision any rapid instantaneous implementation, but rather a slow, deliberate, incremental one. Consensus everywhere takes time. Third, what emerges should be seen as a general direction to be followed, a pole star, not as a rigid recipe to be implemented in lockstep. Fourth, the recourse to violence must be seen as a last resort – we cannot escape the very hard reality that there is now a capacity to do far too much damage with far too little effort. In the modern world, the recourse to violence takes on the aspects of striking matches in a dynamite factory” So what again is the essential difference between your prescription and “workers of the world unite!” or Taliban arguing that they reflect their tribal understanding? “Consensus takes time”, again – just how much time did it take to launch this “broad based polity” in to war, against persons who do not possess the ability to fight back or vaporize this nation? If the evidence on which this war is justified, is so strong, how come none of the “broad”, in the broad-based polity, have yet to see any of it? I know, secrets – but then what happened to broad….?

“We must approach this not confrontational, but collegially, working with, and not against, one another” And if our interest should conflict?

“And yes, in the end, we must be prepared to employ violence (there remain the Hitlers, the Milosovichs, the Sadaam Husseins, and the tribal furies of Rwanda), but it must be the last option; and it should rarely, if ever, be the fiat of a single power, but rather the considered action of a cooperativity”. State Terrorism is a mechanism employed by states after reason has failed and “be the fiat of a single power”, well I’m glad not all hard head headed common sense, has opted for vacancy.

“It would have been interesting indeed to have seen what would have happened if the Palestinian response to Sharon’s visit to the Temple Mount had been a campaign of massive non-violent protest”. Would it not be useful to examine why Sharon chose this provocation? And would it not be interesting to examine Mr. Barak’s motives, in not preventing or delaying Sharon’s trip, but also assigning him 1000-armed policemen? Playing with cheap lives may well be interesting. ”Remember that Barak had put on the table far more than any Israeli government had ever dared before..” look at this statement, tell me if it is untrue: “Remember that Arafat went further with Barak, than any Palestinian, ever (and was being excoriated in highly vocal Palestinian circles)

Listen, I just can’t bear any more and feel I must set you straight. I sincerely say to you that I appreciate your heart. And equally sincerely tell you that is work has some major holes in it. The challenge before the foreign policy of “broadly based polities” is as follows:

Foreign policy and it’s intellectual basis, other than those defined as naked self interests, are a reflection of the intellectual trends that occupy the minds of the concerned and the active There is no tripe such as a broadly based polity anymore. The scopes of interest are of such proportions and complexity, that the name of the game is interest group based politics. Who has more say about the kind of health insure and care you may receive? You or a bunch of lobbyist for HMO’s? Who has more influence in forming Mideast policy, the well-established Zionist or Palestinian or Arab Americans? What does the evidence tell you? Is it a fair statement that out of a adult population of 70 to 90 million, their conscience is not moved seeing peoples mistreated and under military occupation? The answer is that it does not by and large interest them and those who are interested, largely, know the Palestinians as the Philistines. Face that if you can. There is a hardheaded quality to it, but it also happens to be reality.

Besides the role of interest group politics, the prevalent ideology of civilizational order (the understanding and elucidation of which you had such a hash) is premised not on any idealism but an ideology that seeks confrontation and enmity. It seeks confrontation and enmity by a self-righteous promotion of its values, it’s standards, it’s ideology, and it’s vision of how the world should be ordered. It does this because it is convinced that it is better than any other is. As if other cultures, societies and civilization did not have an equal right to the promotion of their values, their standards, their ideology and vision. This arrogance of military and economic power is reflected in the intolerant, pluralism negating, disrespect American public opinion hold for any structure that does not reflect it’s values and standards. Until Americans do not begin to question the morality of their ideology of rejection of that which does not reflect it, count on trouble.

See, morality is not the ambition of a concert of Democracies; their agenda is the integration of economies and the differentiation of markets. It is the modern day equivalent of the pope dividing the world between the Spanish and the Portuguese.

If you seek to incorporate morality in foreign policy and to ensure it is a universally accepted conception of morality, I suggest a start may be in domestic policies. And if, like me, you are the romantic, that I suspect you are, I am sure you would agree that policy’s appeal in the same manner as the addressing of conflicting interests are restructured as shared benefits. After all, do beautiful flowers not reflect strong roots and a conscientious and judicious gardener? If policies can be compared to beautiful flowers and a conscietnous and judicious gardener to intellectual principles, can it be said that the philosophy of projecting values unacceptable to others has been a success?

PS :

Rsidhar ji

The figures that I stated were not my own , they were stated by Joey Chan of CNN. By the way your assertion `India will never let the world know the number of its nukes` just goes to show that you are completely unaware of Military affairs.

A deterrent is only an efficient deterrent if the enemy knows about it. While you can claim that India is hiding the number of its conventional weapons (which are already 2 to 1 to that of Pakistan), the Nuclear weapons are a different story.

If India had more than 10 nukes, India would be jumping up and down and telling Pakistan that. Unless ofcourse India considers the Nuclear weapons more than a `deterrent` and plans on using them on Pakistan ... but even then one would imagine that a deterrent would be necessary to counter China. If that is the case it goes to show what kind of Nazi inhumane mentality the Indian State operates on!

In response to Rdesikan`s nonsense and Shankar`s ultimate proof the BBC link...

I ask everyone whose analysis would they rather accept:

General Charles Horner or NYT`s staff writer?

General Chuck Yeager or Daniel Lak of BBC?

Jane`s Defence Weekly or Wall Street Journal?

Mj G Donald Shephard or Indian Army`s Chief?

Whatever you wish to believe, believe.. the truth will remain the truth, no matter how many one liners a Dehli Based correspondent operating in an entirely Indian frame of reference might come up with.

One can admit 1971 to be a loss for Pakistan. Undoubtedly we lost since we were fighting against an oppressed people and were outnumbered against an enemy taking advantage of our own mistakes. But

instead of quoting Daniel Lak of BBC, or Tom Dick Harry of Wall Street Journal, can we atleast talk on facts and figures for the 1965 war?

Pakistan doesnot claim victory for the 1965 war. We claim that we defended and repulsed an Indian Attack much greater in number. Furthermore it is an accepted fact (read John Fricker`s Battle for Pakistan) that our Air Force blew the Indian Air Force out of the sky. Pakistan also skillfully demonstrated Ground-Air coordination especially in the matters of Air Support. We also wiped out the Indian Tank brigade.

22 days and a numerically superior Indian army moved 4 miles on the Lahore front, and 3 miles on Sialkot front losing as many as 5000 personnel while Pakistanis lost 3200.

I can only talk on facts and figures ... I acknowledge that the greater numerical advantage of Indians given 10 to 1, journals and articles probably will be tainted with Pro-Indian Bias... but facts shall be facts!

-YLH

` ``Win`` in a war means achieving the objectives in the war. Glorifying heroics in battle means squat, if the objectives are not met.`

Ofcourse if `objectives` include killing civilians and goats... then Indian Army is the best army in the World. Bravo.

{PM: re. RSuxena Reply #: 645

[Re: PM ....You were definitely more interesting writing about homosexuality. Stick with topics you know well.]

I`d ask you to follow your principle of post-only-when-in-the-know,but then, we`d all miss you too much on chowk. :)}

Well said sir. Seems like a Pakistani is only a good Pakistani until he tolerating Rsaxena`s Bakwas. When he strays from that, regardless of religion caste or creed, He becomes an Islamic fundamentalist. So how are you enjoying yourself in our exclusive fraternity of `Islamic fundamentalists`?

As for Rsaxena, it is quite clear that he is not very well read, or possesses any extraordinary intelligence... he cracks rather long and unfunny jokes mistaking them for satire ... Hopeless as he is, he is perhaps reflective of the vast Indian Education system which is creating diligent drudges of mediocre intelligence fit only to ruttafy computer programmes, and a country which uses Pakistan as a convenient scapegoat for all the domestic problems that they face. According to unconfirmed reports, Mr Saxena isnt even that. He works on the Wall street as a street vendor selling fruit.

Shammi,

I attended to UCL (Bloomfield Hall Project) upto 8th grade. In 7th grade Rubina Saigol taught us History ... it was some 2 part Longman Book .... very nice illustrations.... I think I still have my Summer Project on Julius Caesar which I did for that class (We had Jan-Dec year).

She was a strict disciplinarian though. Very strict. So I think we attempted on more than one occasion to puncture the tires of her car... though I think we aborted the mission because some stupid girl squeeled.

-YLH

Case in point:

`Dude, you keep getting your behind whacked on this board, again and again and again....

... `

Is there no cure for the `Saddam Hussain Syndrome`?

This disease seems common place in India especially when it comes to certain freaks currently residing in New York City.

Rsaxena,

Where the hell in your delusional little bhoosa bhara mind did you get the idea that I dont like Wall Street Journal? If I didnt like the wall street journal, why the hell would I be subscribing to it? Have you got no other argument except twisting my words and lying about me? When did WSJ become the Gospel of truth on Military Matters?



Unlike naive little minds like Rsaxena, Akash, Gowardhan etc with their simplistic `Oscam`s Razor` theories , I know what to take with a pinch of salt ... Isnt it ironic that one article or newsreport (and remember Articles and newsreports are always indicative of the reporter`s understanding of the issue, and not the reflection of the truth) has suddenly become the Gospel of the truth.

Generals after Generals of US armed forces, military analysts and historians of Jane`s Defence weekly can go on for years about the Pakistani Armed forces and its skill, but when it comes to Mr Rsaxena, if an opinionated writer writes a piece in a Newspaper without going into the semantics of this claim, Rsaxena will have you know that Indian Army is the greatest army in the World.

Well I agree... if killing innocent civilians, especially harmless women, and killing cute little goats and shelling Villages across the LOC is VICTORY, then India has not won 3 victories but millions! I shudder to think that if 1965 War was a victory for the Indian Army, what defeat will look like.

Let us face the ugly truth. There are enough bigoted Indians rampant in the Media in the West to color the judgement of these otherwise sane writers... after all Pakistanis are outnumbered 10 to 1... the recent poll about Pakistan in the WSJ is a clear example of this, when Indians marched on to the poll to lie shamelessly about Pakistan.

Honestly if I was a neutral uninformed visitor, I would probably think Pakistan is hell on earth reading the Indians lies and bigotry.

But fact remains... somewhere despite the attempts of Indians to place curtains on it, the truth shines brilliantly and beautifuly... and hatemongers and liars are blinded by its glory....

In the meantime, Pakistan-obsessed Indians like Rsaxena, Gowardhan, Harimau, Jay, Sadna, etc can go and shove something up their rearsides...

YLH #673

Which school did you study at?

shankar:

marry that thing? dont know about miss scout, but I`d rather jump off habib bank plaza with stones tied to my ankles before i even hear another suggestion as repulsive

I am in Karachi.

LOL gorgeous? Persistence is more like it ;--)

Re: ylh

Please discredit each of these sources using your favorite delusion of the day:

- WSJ

- CNN

- Now shrinker`s post from BBC

And Patricia M, feel free to join him.

http://www.nationalpost.com/commentary/columnists/story.html?f=/stories/20011015/736765.html

Saudis are behind all the `root causes`

Mark Steyn

National Post

Last week, Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal gave a $10-million donation to New York City`s relief effort. He then said that ``at times like this one, we must address some of the issues that led to such a criminal attack. I believe the government of the United States of America should re-examine its policies in the Middle East.``

Mayor Giuliani told him to take his cheque and shove it. He had no time, he said, for ``moral equivalence`` over the deaths of 5,000 New Yorkers guilty of nothing other than going to work that morning. As he put it at the UN, ``You`re either with civilization or with terrorists.``

But let`s take up Prince Alwaleed`s suggestion to ``address some of the issues.`` In today`s New Yorker, Seymour Hersh writes that since 1996 the Saudi Royal Family has been channeling hundreds of millions of dollars to Osama bin Laden`s operations and to other terror groups. Giuliani may think that you`re either with civilization or with terrorists, but as usual the Saudi position is more, ah, nuanced. If the U.S. is going to ``re-examine its policies in the Middle East,`` it might like to start with its relationship with the House of Saud.

It`s remarkable how, for all the surface flim-flam about Afghanistan, Israel, Iraq, Palestine and Pakistan, everything specific about this crisis circles back to Saudi Arabia:

Who were the suicide bombers?

Several were wealthy Saudis.

Who`s their boss?

Osama bin Laden, another Saudi.

But doesn`t he live in Afghanistan?

Yes, under the protection of the Taliban, who were trained in Islamic seminaries in Pakistan funded by the Saudis.

So what`s his main beef?

The U.S. military has bases near the Muslim holy sites in Saudi Arabia.

Why are they there?

They`ve been there since the Gulf War, to protect the Saudis from Iraq.

What does Osama want to do?

Drive the U.S. out of Saudi Arabia.

How come he`s got the dough to