Jihad: Paradoxes and Defining Moments

Reply #: 21

narain

``

I wasn`t aware that Islam originated in India?!!

``

-- Urstruly had yet not replied to this so let me give it a shot, take your pick :-)

1) Islam is universal and so is applicable to all people for all time (so it does not contradict what Urstruly wrote )

2) Islam is not going to last in places other than the Middle East becuase of what is written in the artilce.... (that alien ideas do not prosper in foreign lands).

ad

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

somewhat related article at: http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/hijackers_surprised.html

Urstruly,

Your research and time on this is a testimony to your faith in Islam. Unfortunately, no matter how justified and sane our principles derived form Islam, they do precious little for the comprehension of the failure of Islam: not as a method of living but as a religion. We have lost the glory we once had. The scientists and the thinkers have perished underneath the rubble of the conquerors and worriers.

For the longevity of our belief system, we have to abandon the need to cote it with the idea of some grand design or empire, religion or kind, and instead associate our ideology with a nation. Like one is born into a religion, one is born into a nationality. As being God-fearing is enough for a religion, being willing to work for one`s people is enough for a nationality. The difference is that by substituting religion with nationality, one simply identifies with the yardstick of economic growth rather than piety to God. The latter is in my opinion better left to the realm of interpretation. While the former is more real, divisible, attainable, and achievable and it is moral because it serves interest of others apart from one`s self.

I wish you would understand that for Pakistan this was a well thought out move. It is better to have no sanctions than have them, It is better to have the elite progress more than having them progress elsewhere, it is better for Pakistan to be thanked as a country that is against terrorism than as a country that sends in mixed messages.

Our proximity with Afghanistan and our support of the Taliban for our own national interest has brought us to a point where it would be shear folly to do anything different than what we have done, because it would be grossly misunderstood.

The taliban have got far too much support from Pakistan than what its character ask of it. Don`t you agree? This is to me an opportunity for Pakistan to at least ideologically latch on to a future that is different form its barren past. Doesn`t our history tell us that religion only fuels the illiterate and ignorant masses? Besides it takes away from precious ventures to enter the world market.

Let us face it: We will not be recognized for Islam if we do not progress as a nation. We will not progress as a nation if religion even so slightly touches politics, not because there is something wrong with acknowledging the divine in us, but because there will be very few who think of the Divine when it comes to religion.

To reconstruct, we have to brutally clean the infection inside, until all the rot is disinfected. There is slow healing and lots of pain. We should not make the mistake of returning to shrines and mullah`s in the illusion that it is a punishment form God.

The Taliban are have hurt the women and children of Afghanistan so bad, why should we anyone honor their demand to seek evidence of Osama`s guilt? Doesn`t our religion tell us that the one with knowledge can never be the same as the one without? We have here one country that upholds the idea of ``innocent till proven guilty`` and another that abuses fully the idea of, ``guilty till proven innocent``

I completely believe in Howard Zenn, Noam Chomskey, Edward Said and in part with Arundhati Roy`s stance of the damage of American foreign policy, however, I see a saner America emerge, one that is ready to learn form its past mistakes. Just as Kanji Dawarkadas and various people of Jinnah`s thoughts believed in giving the British a chance to honor their pledge, so should we give the US a chance.

Aisha.

Manoj,

First of all I dont like the sound of `shri` next to my name. Yes in the civilized world things are decided by Democracy, like how the national will of a nation is to build a temple over a 16th century mosque, or whether all Australian Missionaries should be burnt alive.

In any event, if your point had anything to do with whether Pakistanis are supporting US or not, I think the crowds that came out for the `National Solidarity day` looked greater than the crowds for anti-Government rallies.

I dont know whether Pakistanis support US or not, but like the CNN correspondents both Mike Chinoy and Christiane Amanpour are reporting, the turnout for the religio-fanatics has been very small...

Surely when Muslim League and the Congress were attracting crowds of millions in 1940s you cant be naive enough to think that in 2001 a crowd of 10 000 is indicative of Public support? Are all of you Naive?

-YLH

Sorry but well, I agree with Ronald K. Rodebagh. We need to modernize. Monotheist, Polytheist, Agnostic, Pantheist: the Lord God made em all.

sac #30 So you are convinced that Islam is a bad religion that tells people to kill. You have obviously not troubled yourself to read the Quran or to read what established scholars of comparitive religion have to say about Islam and other religions. Nothing I say is going to convince you so I wont try. You are welcome to your uneducated opinions.

narain #29 My point was very, very simple - a religion is not a person. There is no Mr. Islam or Mr. Hinduism or even a Mr. God to whom we can preach to get it`s act together and stop calling for all kafirs to be killed, or all lower caste folks to remember their place, or whatever. This is a very simple point, and I am sure you wont disagree with it.

So: Who has the obligation to behave in a civilized manner? Religion or Man? As for ``correcting`` the scriptures, I have read the Quran very carefully: It is neither a very lengthy book nor very difficult to read and in fact as some fascinating incidences to tell. Rest assured that it teaches respect for people of other faiths. It teaches mercy, it teaches kindness, it teaches living in peace with one`s neighbors. It teaches muslims not to consider themselves anything special since each individual will be judged by God.

There are muslim chauvinists, no question. And extremists. My point is: hold THESE people responsible for their actions. By taking the easy way out and assuming that they are merely following their religion, you are letting them off the hook.

And mean people are to be found in every religion, including Islam, including Hinduism.

Reply #: 14

manoj

Manoj, please give YLH a break. After all, from where he comes from, logic and reason are what the army says they are.... anything else is blasphemy ... and we know what the punishment for blasphemy is, in Pakistan, don`t we ?

AD

Reply #: 21

narain

``

I wasn`t aware that Islam originated in India?!!

``

-- Urstruly had yet not replied to this so let me give it a shot, take your pick :-)

1) Islam is universal and so is applicable to all people for all time (so it does not contradict what Urstruly wrote )

2) Islam is not going to last in places other than the Middle East becuase of what is written in the artilce.... (that alien ideas do not prosper in foreign lands).

ad

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

somewhat related article at: http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/hijackers_surprised.html

Urstruly,

Your research and time on this is a testimony to your faith in Islam. Unfortunately, no matter how justified and sane our principles derived form Islam, they do precious little for the comprehension of the failure of Islam: not as a method of living but as a religion. We have lost the glory we once had. The scientists and the thinkers have perished underneath the rubble of the conquerors and worriers.

For the longevity of our belief system, we have to abandon the need to cote it with the idea of some grand design or empire, religion or kind, and instead associate our ideology with a nation. Like one is born into a religion, one is born into a nationality. As being God-fearing is enough for a religion, being willing to work for one`s people is enough for a nationality. The difference is that by substituting religion with nationality, one simply identifies with the yardstick of economic growth rather than piety to God. The latter is in my opinion better left to the realm of interpretation. While the former is more real, divisible, attainable, and achievable and it is moral because it serves interest of others apart from one`s self.

I wish you would understand that for Pakistan this was a well thought out move. It is better to have no sanctions than have them, It is better to have the elite progress more than having them progress elsewhere, it is better for Pakistan to be thanked as a country that is against terrorism than as a country that sends in mixed messages.

Our proximity with Afghanistan and our support of the Taliban for our own national interest has brought us to a point where it would be shear folly to do anything different than what we have done, because it would be grossly misunderstood.

The taliban have got far too much support from Pakistan than what its character ask of it. Don`t you agree? This is to me an opportunity for Pakistan to at least ideologically latch on to a future that is different form its barren past. Doesn`t our history tell us that religion only fuels the illiterate and ignorant masses? Besides it takes away from precious ventures to enter the world market.

Let us face it: We will not be recognized for Islam if we do not progress as a nation. We will not progress as a nation if religion even so slightly touches politics, not because there is something wrong with acknowledging the divine in us, but because there will be very few who think of the Divine when it comes to religion.

To reconstruct, we have to brutally clean the infection inside, until all the rot is disinfected. There is slow healing and lots of pain. We should not make the mistake of returning to shrines and mullah`s in the illusion that it is a punishment form God.

The Taliban are have hurt the women and children of Afghanistan so bad, why should we anyone honor their demand to seek evidence of Osama`s guilt? Doesn`t our religion tell us that the one with knowledge can never be the same as the one without? We have here one country that upholds the idea of ``innocent till proven guilty`` and another that abuses fully the idea of, ``guilty till proven innocent``

I completely believe in Howard Zenn, Noam Chomskey, Edward Said and in part with Arundhati Roy`s stance of the damage of American foreign policy, however, I see a saner America emerge, one that is ready to learn form its past mistakes. Just as Kanji Dawarkadas and various people of Jinnah`s thoughts believed in giving the British a chance to honor their pledge, so should we give the US a chance.

Aisha.

Manoj,

First of all I dont like the sound of `shri` next to my name. Yes in the civilized world things are decided by Democracy, like how the national will of a nation is to build a temple over a 16th century mosque, or whether all Australian Missionaries should be burnt alive.

In any event, if your point had anything to do with whether Pakistanis are supporting US or not, I think the crowds that came out for the `National Solidarity day` looked greater than the crowds for anti-Government rallies.

I dont know whether Pakistanis support US or not, but like the CNN correspondents both Mike Chinoy and Christiane Amanpour are reporting, the turnout for the religio-fanatics has been very small...

Surely when Muslim League and the Congress were attracting crowds of millions in 1940s you cant be naive enough to think that in 2001 a crowd of 10 000 is indicative of Public support? Are all of you Naive?

-YLH

Sorry but well, I agree with Ronald K. Rodebagh. We need to modernize. Monotheist, Polytheist, Agnostic, Pantheist: the Lord God made em all.

sac #30 So you are convinced that Islam is a bad religion that tells people to kill. You have obviously not troubled yourself to read the Quran or to read what established scholars of comparitive religion have to say about Islam and other religions. Nothing I say is going to convince you so I wont try. You are welcome to your uneducated opinions.