Declaration of Jehad

Zafar

``while the ideal level of “individual freedom” may be defined differently in different places, the question remains, is it (for example) defined differently for women and for men in a single place and why, and are either group concretely better off because of these definitions?``

It may of may not be defined differently for women and for men - This for for those women and effected for either the lack of difference or differences, to negotiate within the context of their culture, their values, their vision.

Are they better off? We all have our opinions about that, but in effective, practical terms, these conclusions remain primarily with those actors within an given culture and society.

Somewhere along this thread we were talking about religious democracy and it`s goal of a moral society. You had suggested that morality need not be religiously ordained. This is intriguing. Remember, not all religions are defined by the 3 Abrahamic religions, but either way, explain to me how you can conclude that morality does not derive from a religiousity?

Reply Hobbyty #: 170

“… I was hoping to explore was that while a particular ``value`` may be universal, it`s particular expression, need not be the same across cultures and that this does not nullify the value.”

True, but while the ideal level of “individual freedom” may be defined differently in different places, the question remains, is it (for example) defined differently for women and for men in a single place and why, and are either group concretely better off because of these definitions?

Reply Nasah # 172

“Isn`t Zahra a flower and Zohra a star?”

Doubtless. Further semantic discussion seems, however, a bit frought….

Jayaparakash Jee:

``When a man does exactly what a woman expects him to do she does not think much of him. One should always do what a woman does not expect, just as one should say what she does not understand.``

That should conclude the discussion.

:)

Take Care.

Sigalph:

``Whenever people agree with me, I always feel I must be wrong.``

Lady Windermere`s Fan - Oscar Wilde

:)

re zahra`s

``The rest need not produce anything and should head out for an abortion asap. ``

I don`t recall a more cold-blooded call to homicide on this forum. No wonder your language is so laced with blood-curdling femmnazi stuff.

Zahra,

INDIVIDUAL AND THE SOCIETY,

You are relying unduly on the personal experiences to generalise. Each individual is an exception to the rule. Most of the time, i do not delve into the personal details, and individual experiences.

For example dawn is a widely circulated news paper in pakistan. I try to devine the values of the pak society from the reports in this paper, because that represent the average, the societal values.

To give you an example, the burning of the ahmadia mosques in pakistan recently, it did not make the main news, but some letters to the editors were published. Essentially it shows that mosque burning is not news worthy in pakistan.

My favourite topic, when saima was killed, it was the days of nawaz. The elected, let me emphesise, democratically elected representatives of pakistan refused to condemn the killing, let me emphesise, it was just a resolution to condemn the act, let me repeat it was not a legislation to ban honour killing, just a run of the mill condemnation of the killing, was defeated by twothird majority in the legislature.

Zhra, you can give, for that matter a million pakistanis can give their personal affidavits that they have not heard of honour killing, but is undisputable that honourkilling is an accpted norm in pakistan.

If you are interested in social change, focus on the social, on the average, on waht is collectively expressed. Forget about the personal that is irrelevant, every individual is an exception to the social, to the average.

regards and best wishes to see the big picture.

jay

Shah,

I do not have any statistics to give you. I had never been to bihar. Job opportunities in kerala is almost non existant. Un employment statistics could be very high in kerala.

With all of the above as caveats, let me say, you can hardly see a begger in kerala. You will find it very difficult to spot a pawn broker like in most ofthe northern states. Unlike in the cities?US, in the rural setting of kerala no one can remain ``un-employed`. Some neighbour, some cousin is going to call the young man and tell him, you do this etc..etc. and he will not get paid, but as in the cities, he is not sitting all day infront of the TV. May be you can say people are under employed.

It is hard to say what education does to the psyche of people. Unskilled wage rate in kerala is three times that in tamilnadu small towns. Many from tamilnadu live and work, at least I know in Calicut. There is a saying, `` kerala is the gulf for tamilians`` ( apologies to the tamils on chowk).

For all the social indicators, womens education has shown to be accelerant. May be it has something to do with the upkeep of the house, education of the young, ``keeping the men under check``.

By the way, if you want to say that bihar is better than kerala, so be it, I will not argue with you.

regards and best of life in bihar, preferably in tihar.

jay

Jayaprakash:

I had meant to say in my past post, ``E.O.D.`` But reading your vichaar, I guess I have to withhold my ``E.O.D.`` The followng post has three sections. They are addressing certain aspects that are well-linked, but have their own standing. Have a good read!

I)

Despite the fact, that I didn`t understand very well, the context of your two examples, I think I can infer what you were alluding to. In my view, many Pakistani Men would not like their women to go out to a police station even to report a theft case. Why? It`s something to do with the role of men in our society. The men would like that issue to be routed through them than the women taking the initiave on their own. So, many times, it is not that the women cannot go on their own and/or raise voice on their own, but they end up complying with the norms. And it`s considered strange, if they take on this responsibility on their own. It`s like: don`t they have men in their family to take care of these isses? This is a ridiculous way of thinking, but it still exists. If someone believes in this kind of notion, then what about those, who do not have any men in their immediate family? What about those who are widows? Who are orphans? Religiously, it`s incumbent upon the family men to assist the women or if they are not there, then the society/neighborhood should do so. I have seen this in my own family where my father would support some of our very old neighbors that ab`bu had known since his childhood days. The elderly men had passed away and in fact, there were two widows, who only lived in the family house with their kids. This is my very early childhood memory(I was hardly 6-7 years old). On each Eid, my father would go and take the Eidee for the kids of that house. In fact, both my parents(as both were earning)would give their zakat to them. I gave an example to mention that I was not talking of fiction here.

Times have changed for the better, as I would like to think. Or probably, times have changed for a certain class, with a certain thinking pattern, in our society. Since you only get to see the picture of Pakistan and its society from the newspapers: who are there to capture as well as sensationalize all the events; therefore, you will not see everything that`s out there. Interestingly, I have met with quite a few Indians, who had ties from different parts of West Punjab. Personally, I felt that their concept of (our side) is so different, from what it is - that they cannot, any more, assume based on what they knew of. Going back, to my thought on preconceived notions:

- Do bad things still happen? Yes, 101%.
- Can anything be done for their tadarak? Yes.
- Have we continued practising some of the old traditional bad habits? Yes.
- Would we continue carrying that nahoosut with us? Yes! Unless, we do not stop and analyze, we will continue repeating the same mistakes - be it in our culture or in our values or in our way of state related affairs.


II)

I was at a family wedding a few days back, where one uncle, a worldbank economist, who has been assisting the current government, in resolving the internal loans` issues, emphasized very vehemently, on the role of women in any future government in Pakistan and in structuring the country`s future direction. Again, my initial point that was rudely interrupted by some egocentric lunatics, had a lot of depth and meaning to it. I, still very vehemently believe, that if your women, are dumb idiots, then they will produce garbage. Ok, critics will say that you cannot generalize it. Fine. It`s just like you cannot generalize anything in life. But somethings, do have a tendency, to follow a definitive pattern.

Only a woman, who realizes the role and responsibility, of the children she produces, regardless of their gender, can add to the future of Pakistan. The rest need not produce anything and should head out for an abortion asap. We have enough morons and buffoons already alive and breathing. Why corrupt your planet any more? On the other hand, I must mention that a woman does not raise a child on her own; it`s the parents, who add to the development and nourishment and personality of the child. So both, play a significant role.

In general, mothers play a very strong role, in the lives, as well as, character building of their sons. That`s the point that we should keep in mind for all times to come. Oh, I hope in your part of India, it`s still women who are into child-bearing. Hopefully, the roles have not reversed? So, please do not ever ever challenge their strength; and weigh them in a pul`uR`aa of weak and strong. I have read somewhere that behind every great man, there is a woman. Now, it does not say strong man. It says great man. I hope you can differentiate between the concepts of strength and greatness. We need great men and not necessarily strong men in Pakistan. The concept of strength, can corrupt human mind very easily. The concept of greatness, evolves, flourishes and nourishes a human soul, that in return, develops a sweet bhaloo :)


III)

On Chowk, I do not think any woman from Pakistan, whether a writer or an interactor, holds that view, which says, ``it`s FINE that woman should be mistreated.`` When you are raised with love and respect, then you do not have to bring those points again and again. You take them for granted. But there is something here that woke me up with a big thud. I am trying to think how to compose my thoughts on the above revelation...thinking... thinking...thinking. OK!

Life, in one`s family structure, is very different, from what exists outside, of it. Yes, if you are raised with values, priniciples, love and care - you are prone to practising as well as imagining the same. But sometimes, you do run into incidents amongst your friends/friend`s friends/family/extended family that alert you to be cautious, in making any assumptions or I should say taking things for granted.

Like, one of my friends(I have known her for a couple of years only), was raised without giving a second thought to money matters and came from a liberal background. She ended up marrying a kunjoos insaan. She married someone of her choice, which is quite common and ususual in my surroundings; but she never looked into analyzing this fellow`s character or I should say characteristics. As a result, the marriage is on the rocks, after 3 years or so, and the major issue is: finances. She works, but she cannot spend her own money without permission. This is in the US. I simply could not believe this. Personally, I would rip a man`s head apart, and kick him out, if I ever hear, this kind of rubbish. I was simply amazed to hear the compromise she was making to keep her marriage alive and going.

In short, when you move outside of your comfort zone, parents` nest, and close friends` circle with whom you grew up - you end up being exposed to the world outside. Sometimes, you are surprised; other times, you cannot imagine those things happening to you or to your loved ones. The aforementioned should not imply, that one should stay like a shutr-murgh and hide one`s neck in the sand - considering that to be a safe haven with a fluffy(mulaim)pillow.

On the contrary, one must come out in the world, take on challenges and responsibilities, and swim without being eaten by the sharks, based on one`s values and teachings. I also believe if there is something in a person, he/she will survive. If there isn`t, then the writing will be pretty much on the wall. Reminds me of a saying that I always had outside my door when I was a Resident Advisor in school, ``If you do not stand for something, you can fall for anything.``

Lastly, there are gender related issues at all levels in our society. There are ego related issues prevalent everywhere, regardless of the social standing. So, in my opinion, it`s not so easy to eliminate all the problems by doing xyz. But then, I do not know everything. And I may take my time to even acquire the understanding of certain aspects that are beyond my own comprehension due to my thought process and a very independent persona.

With that said, I will depart. I have another journey to take on :)


Best Wishes!

Happy Reading!

Nice Weekend!

unkal jay:

``Ofcorse I know what you are talking about, the womens lib ideas. My daughter grew up in one such society and *she always used to get annoyed why I asked more questions about where she is going and who her fiends are when compared to my son. *

I tell you what I told her, I grew up in a pimitive socierty, there are the values from there, it is difficult for me to change now, but try to understand``

why, thats just like my dad! :)

Zahra,

I do live in a primitive society where there are seats reserved for women in the buses and trains, where there are womens and mens toilets. I live in a uncivilised world where a woman carrying a child in arms can walk to the most criminal notorious area and can be a certain that no one will interfere with her.

Ofcorse I know what you are talking about, the womens lib ideas. My daughter grew up in one such society and she always used to get annoyed why I asked more questions about where she is going and who her fiends are when compared to my son.

I tell you what I told her, I grew up in a pimitive socierty, there are the values from there, it is difficult for me to change now, but try to understand. But i will understand if you cannot understand.

By the way, jihad is for men only, and what aythority zeejaha has got to write about it. You having raised the feminist question.

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Jayaprakash:

On the weaker ones: I found, an indirect reference to women, being the, weaker ones. I do not think you realized what you wrote. Do not tell me that in your surroundings, men are the ones who bear kids? Do they? Really! Must be a spectacular phenomenon! We learn something new every day. Amazing!

There is a good number of men, out there, way too weak, both mentally and spiritually. So, weakness canNOT be gender specific. OK!

Next time, please do not allude to such inflammatory remarks; avoid satisfying your gender related ego.

Regards.

Zafar Al Talib to Zahra #166

``Dear Madame President Zohra``

Dear Zafar Al-Talib:

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Isn`t Zahra a flower and Zohra a star? -- but then Zahar is also poison -- but then again -- Zahra couldn`t be the poisonous one by any means?