Declaration of Jehad

Zafar

With regard to indexical, I was thinking along the lines of it applicaplibility to a particular culture and a particular time - And though I had not thought of it in the sense you put it (Which and What), I find these interesting. Here too, the notion of ``indexical`` would apply, if we were focus on ``Which Rights`` and ``what is a value`` - to whom? and when?

To I was hoping to explore was that while a particular ``value`` may be universal, it`s particular expression, need not be the same across cultures and that this does not nullify the value. For example, murder is a crime punishable by death in one culture and by life imprisonment in another. In both cases the ``value`` is the value of a life.

On the changes in the way women make a living in Kerala - How has this changed for large or significant numbers of women, in the last 50 yrs? I get the higher education=better job part, but I don`t know much about the particular dynamic regarding what women used to do and how that has changed.

Zafar

With regard to indexical, I was thinking along the lines of it applicaplibility to a particular culture and a particular time - And though I had not thought of it in the sense you put it (Which and What), I find these interesting. Here too, the notion of ``indexical`` would apply, if we were focus on ``Which Rights`` and ``what is a value`` - to whom? and when?

To I was hoping to explore was that while a particular ``value`` may be universal, it`s particular expression, need not be the same across cultures and that this does not nullify the value. For example, murder is a crime punishable by death in one culture and by life imprisonment in another. In both cases the ``value`` is the value of a life.

On the changes in the way women make a living in Kerala - How has this changed for large or significant numbers of women, in the last 50 yrs? I get the higher education=better job part, but I don`t know much about the particular dynamic regarding what women used to do and how that has changed.

Reply Zahra # 168

[``Zafar`al`Talib:

There was no uncivil jibe towards Jayaprakash. By saying ``high on something,`` I implied ``advocating`` than being ``under the influence`` of a drug. I appreciate your attempt to infer, and am glad that you cared to inquire. Please always adopt that route in future as well.

Polite Wishes.

PS: Please accept my apologies for the lack of interest in Kerala and its natives.``]



Dear Madame President

I am relieved that there is no bad feeling between you and Mr Jayaprakash. Thank you for your affirmation of my approach to these things - with this kind of encouragement I will be sure to continue in this manner.

It is disappointing to hear of your disinterest in things Keralite. I hear that it is a very beautiful part of the world, and they tell me that travel broadens the mind ;)

Best wishes,

Zafar Al-Talib

PS I always thought I knew how to spell my last name correctly, but will now recheck it with my mother, just to be on the safe side. Till then please bear with me.

Zafar`al`Talib:

There was no uncivil jibe towards Jayaprakash. By saying ``high on something,`` I implied ``advocating`` than being ``under the influence`` of a drug. I appreciate your attempt to infer, and am glad that you cared to inquire. Please always adopt that route in future as well.

Polite Wishes.

PS: Please accept my apologies for the lack of interest in Kerala and its natives.

Jayaprakash:

[I wrote the following as Part 1 of my previous post, but I did not post it. I thought of changing my mind, but I was not sure. I contemplated on my reason, and it made me revisit my decision. I allowed the battle to go on; and finally, I decided to post it. Sorry for the unnecessary disruption! Intent is, to take a snapshot and portray the results.]

``All these are attackes on the weaker, done by a society that sorry, Zahra, you are a part of. How many articles have any of you ( i mean the educated women of pakistan) have written to voice your opposition. Zeejha on interpreting an accomodating jihad, bina sha on a hindu girl being married to a dog, aisha sarwari on something equally trivial, some other female journalist on paki mangos.``


I appreciate your valid concerns. I think it has a lot to do with the fact, that when we, ourselves, do not see, ourselves, in any of the above situations, we have a hard time even imagining those. That`s a reality! I have spent 20 something years in Pakistan, and I have never ever known of the practice of honor killing. In recent years, it has gained more attention, which is certainly great. So, you should not assume that all Pakistanis are exposed to all kinds of things going on within their own country. Reading an akhbar is very different from living in a place where cruel practices were/are prevalent. Ok, it may have something to do with the sheltered environment.

I have been thinking of the horrible murder of the young lawyer in KHI, whose neighbor poisoned him to death. I found it damn cruel and distasteful. Unbelievable! Sad! Depressing! In my family, some of my father’s best friends had ties with our family for many many decades. Some of them were our neighbors, whereas, others were late grandfather’s colleagues. One family, staunch Shiites, has been our family friends, for over a century now. The kids from both the families, knew each other very well; and have kept in touch with each other, even after leaving, for different parts of the world. One of them, my father`s contemporary, was with ab`bu from class prep till the law college. Both ab`bu and uncle have studied together and would narrate their childhood adventures, occasionally. Whenever, I head out to California, I have to say hello to uncle, in person [as he reminds me of the different stages of my father’s student life – a very special person]; and interestingly, a very sweet gesture awaits me, on all my trips. He would set a pretty rose in a vase, from his rose garden; and leave a note in my room, reading: ``I welcome my dearest childhood friend’s daughter to my place and hope that she enjoys her stay.`` He always does that. He is a pretty scholarly fellow: a lawyer, a professor and a writer; and has been writing quite actively on different legislative acts in California. Whenever, we reconvene, and talk about the current affairs, many issues are brought up, and one of them is, honor-killing; besides, the current mania of Shiites` killings. There is an immense sadness and shock in his eyes - kind of saying: this is unheard of! This isn`t how we have ever heard of women being treated in and around our families. Interestingly, he has many female family members and they all love him to death and vice versa. Interestingly, my father has four sisters, who are worshipped by him and vice versa. I gave the details, to let you know, that I cannot relate to the honor killing episodes, in anyway or shape. I could never comprehend this concept. So, that says, something, for my own ignorance, on the subject. Then, everyone does not think alike. All women are not raised alike. All men do not think, of their daughters, the same way. All men, don’t/won’t let their daughters, exercise their mind/heart, when it comes to taking major steps in their lives. By the grace of God, most of my father’s colleagues had daughters, with strong personalities and the parents were encouraging and always stood by their daughters. So, ideally, I would like to think that jahilae` mutliq men commit such heinous crimes [the crimes that you’ve brought up]. But reading the case of Saima, who was killed in the lawyer’s office, I cannot even say the above with full confidence anymore. If I further look into this matter, there can be educated jahilae’mutliqs as well. I just got acquainted to ``this`` term, in the past few years; but I must mention that it’s a sick concept. Unfortunately, it has been catching a lot of attention for some obvious reasons - the tendency to have control over others` lives, may be? may be not!.


PS: This was meant to be read only. :)

Take Care.

Reply Zahra # 162

“Dear Mr.Bhaloo G: [Zafar`ul`Talib ]

Are you suggesting that Jayaprakash is from Kerala and that`s why he is so high on the concept of self-defined women rights?”

Dear Madame President Zohra

Your response raises some interesting questions.

1 Are only people from Kerala supposed to be interested in women’s rights? Why not the rest of us? (I’d assume that all decent people would be.) Are you insinuating that Asma Jehangir is an under cover Malayali?

2 What are self-defined women’s rights? Women’s rights as defined by women? I’d assume so, but am willing to be persuaded otherwise if you feel that I am wrong. What’s wrong with that, anyway?

“Thanks for your vichaar.“

A bhashan, actually, but you are most welcome. It was a pleasure and I hope that you found it useful.

Respectful regards,

Zafar Al-Talib

PS I do not feel qualified to comment in depth on the drug reference, but confess that it seemed somewhat random. Surely Mr Jay does not deserve this kind of uncivil jibe.

Reply Hobbyty # 163

Hobbyty

“Zafar, would I be correct in understanding that in the statement above you mean to suggest ``Status and rights, equality, values`` as being defined and understood within a particular indexical context?”

Language is a “particular indexical context”, if I understand the term correctly. (If anybody – er, Fuzair Bhaijaan? If it’s not too much trouble - can define it properly please help out here. I can’t, except vaguely: the definition of X means that it is not everything else – is this right? Am I totally confused here?) So yes. Not sure if those terms differ so much in their meaning from one culture to another, though WHICH rights and WHICH values may well differ. (As opposed to “WHAT is a right?” and “WHAT is a value” which is where the indexical context comes in.)

“And are you suggesting that ``status and rights``, ``equality`` is a function of women`s perception of themselves, and their perception of men and men`s perception of themselves and their perception of women.”

Absolutely. Two sides of the same coin. So also a function of men’s perceptions, and how the two gender’s perceptions interact and duke it out in a socioeconomic space.

“And if it is true that the way men and women earn or make a living effects these perceptions - what changes in the way women earn or make a living in Kerala, do think contribute to the kinds of values and the kind of equality you suggest exist in Kerala?”

Higher literacy = greater ability to participate in paid workforce = greater appreciation of quantified contribution to family = more respect = higher status and more influence = more freedom.

Zafar

Zafar 161,

I do agree with you, and the metaphor was essentially to say that womens rights, or essentially the rights of the minorities and weaker sections of the society is a good indicator the `decency` of the society.

Women in travelling in buses with may be $10,000 worth of jewellary on their necks is worth watching, no one is afraid of chain snatchers.

Of course the fact is that a place like kerala cannot survive with out the catchment of the rest of india, gulf etc. It is a ``money order`` economy, it is the ones who work outside kerala that are supporting the high wage rates and community infrastructure.

By the way, following the bombing and the potential for other unrests, many muslims, especially the big beared ones from other parts of india are sheltering in kerala. I was having a chat with my relatives the other day and asked them about the potential for riots in Calicut. They said that muslims are really worried about unrest, they being relatively well off are worried that they will be the loosers in any unrest and are dobbing in the slightest extremists.

May be there is something to learn about the WTC bombers.

regards

Jay

Zafar Al-Talib

`` The status and rights of women in any society are a good indicator of whether that society values equality and enables individuals to enjoy a variety of freedoms.``

Zafar, would I be correct in understanding that in the statement above you mean to suggest ``Status and rights, equality, values`` as being defined and understood within a particular indexical context?

And are you suggesting that ``status and rights``, ``equality`` is a function of women`s perception of themselves, and their perception of men and men`s perception of themselves and their perception of women, And if it is true that the way men and women earn or make a living effects these perceptions - what changes in the way women earn or make a living in Kerala, do think contribute to the kinds of values and the kind of equality you suggest exist in Kerala?

Dear Mr.Bhaloo G: [Zafar`ul`Talib ]

Are you suggesting that Jayaprakash is from Kerala and that`s why he is so high on the concept of self-defined women rights?

Thanks for your vichaar.

Regards.

Reply Zahra # 159

``Women are the miners’ canaries; when they fall over the end is not very far.``

Zahraji

I don’t presume to speak for Jay, but it does seem a slightly eccentric way of making a very valid point. (I can’t comment on the appropriateness of comparing women and canaries, but I doubt if his intent was to be impolite about women.) The status and rights of women in any society are a good indicator of whether that society values equality and enables individuals to enjoy a variety of freedoms.

In India, for example, while women are equal in the eyes of the law they often suffer from a pronounced lack of equality in day to day life (especially when they are not members of the elite). I think that this very basic heirarchical assigning of worth based on gender is the same pattern which is then played out in assigning greater and lesser rights in terms of majority/minority, Hindu/Muslim, rich/poor, urban/rural, high caste/low caste, educated/uneducated, married/unmarried, straight/gay, light skinned/dark skinned…the list could go on and on.

Basically the pattern seems to assign less worth to people who do not conform to the “norm” (however that is defined). Gender seems to be the most basic differential, and if that is seen as an indicator of worth, the other discriminations (and I would say many of these are as much internal as external) follow. Any change in womens’ position in society seems to be shadowed by changes in the way that society deals with other differences – good or bad.

I don’t think it is a coincidence, for example, that women in Kerala enjoy a higher level of equality with their male peers than anywhere else in India and that Kerala also has the highest level of literacy in the country (close to 100% I think), one of the flattest income distributions, one of the lowest rates of communal conflict (despite some flare-ups, they aren’t perfect) and a much smaller difference between the income of urban and rural people. Interestingly, although Kerala used to have a highly complex and rigid caste system (including things like not letting an untouchable’s shadow fall on a Brahmin) this has now essentially faded away, certainly in comparison to other parts of India. There is no Nair party.

Compare this with the Indo-Gangetic plain in parts of Uttar Pradesh and Bihar – women have far fewer rights in practice there (certainly outside the major metros) and, consistent with this, literacy is low, the urban/rural economic divide is high, casteism is much stonger than elsewhere in the country, income distribution is extremely uneven and communal relations are the worst in the country. This pattern can be seen throughout the country. I realise that all these things contribute to each other, but I think that women’s rights is the most basic, and perhaps the most influential of the lot. My point is not that we should all move to Kerala, but that women’s rights say a lot about a society.

Best wishes,

Zafar

Ref Shah #: 158

[Jay (gowardhan,Harimou,Sux,..)

Kashmir -indan govt judge ,jury & executioneer]

Not enough executions, in my opinion.

Jayaprakash:

``Women are the miners canaries, when they fall over, the end is not very far.``

I am really offended by the above metaphor. Apparently, you displayed some qaul-o-fale-kaa-tazaad here[did not practice what you preached]. On one hand, you were very vocal on women`s rights; but on the other hand, you have been constantly dictating them what to write.

-Why should a woman always follow the advice of a man?

-Why should she write on a subject that is fed to her than otherwise?

-Has anyone told the south (east) asian bhaloos on chowk to write xyz than abc?

-Can anyone tell them[sweet bhaloos]to address women related issues in their articles, for they are the ones who inflict such tortures than vice versa?

You will never do that. Why? I know the reason damn well.

In short, Jayaprakash, you still want to keep the remote control in your hand. Tough Luck! Ain`t happening!!!

You cannot go and dictate any female to write on your favorite subject. It’s her prerogative. Despite the fact that your initial point had some weight, it lost its essence when deeply analyzed.


PS: The term ``bhaloos`` should not offend anyone. There are all kinds of bhaloos on the face of earth: good ones and bad ones. I have read enough nonsense by some ``bad bhaloos`` regarding women’s attire and etc on chowk; it’s time to tell the ``bhaloos`` that they are ``walking-talking-bhaloos.`` If it offends the ones, who require proper arms’ waxing (not shaving: harmful for the human skin), they better take care of it. I wish them a safe journey!

Kind Regards!

:)

Shah 153,

You are another typical pakistani, who cannot understand the significance of honour killing. In a `modern` society it is the unwritten norm that the same person cannot be the judge, jury and the executioner, there is some notion of due process. What is significant about honour killing is that all those nor,ms are violated and the allegedly modern high court of lahore says that the above type of killing is perfectly legal in pakistan.

Legalistation of honour killing, not the killing itself, is the significant aspect of the pak society. There are not many pakistanis who can understand the import of the distinction, having grown up with a few killings in the familiy nad neighbourhoods, I can understand, shah, your perplexity, what is there to talk about, as is the response of most pakistanis.

regards and best wishes to keep up the honour and very many happy killings.

jay

sigalph#235 OK. You win this one, boss.

sigalph #132 Wasps nevertheless in general adopt children not linked to them by blood, and south asians in general do not. There are exceptions to every rule. So my basic point remains valid, dont you think?