Declaration of Jehad

Reply Hobbyty # 195

HT

``It may of may not be defined differently for women and for men - This for those women and men effected by either the lack of difference or differences, to negotiate, within the context of their culture, their values, their vision.``

We all negotiate meaning in context of our cultures. I’m missing the specific significance here. ??

“Whether organized or disorganized, what`s that got to do with it - how have explained that morality does not arise out of religion? Is not all morality religion?”

How would you define religion?

Aicha,

He He. Those naked buxom women and free-flowing booze is very attractive. Now I know why those Jihadis are so ``religious`` and read the book many times a day.

Always wanted to have a harem of naked women.

Fatimah?

Gowardhan - thinking of switching ??

Thats A-OK and you dont have to be so bashful about it : )

aicha

I am curious. How does booze flow freely and men get dozens of naked women to frolick around in paradize when on earth drinks are strictly barred and women are told to ``dress modestly``?

Zafar

Sorry, it shud read as flws:

``It may of may not be defined differently for women and for men - This for those women and men effected by either the lack of difference or differences, to negotiate, within the context of their culture, their values, their vision.``

Whether organized or disorganized, what`s that got to do with it - how have explained that morality does not arise out of religion? Is not all morality religion?

Reply Hobbyty # 191

Mian

“It may of may not be defined differently for women and for men - This for for those women and effected for either the lack of difference or differences, to negotiate within the context of their culture, their values, their vision.”

Please rephrase. Yeh mere samajh men nahin aya.

“Are they better off? We all have our opinions about that, but in effective, practical terms, these conclusions remain primarily with those actors within an given culture and society.”

Asking women whether they feel they have equal benefits and status to men in their society is probably a good place to start. Kuen ke mendak is a phrase that was originally coined by ladies who lived in purdah in the subcontinent to describe themselves.

“You had suggested that morality need not be religiously ordained. This is intriguing. Remember, not all religions are defined by the 3 Abrahamic religions, but either way, explain to me how you can conclude that morality does not derive from a religiousity?”

Cultural norms are a function of history (including interaction with, or understanding of religion). If organised religion fades in importance, does it mean that morality also declines? I would say that it doesn’t, though the definition of what is moral and immoral certainly changes. The improvement of women`s rights in those societies where organised religion has declined in importance is thought provoking.

Hang in there

Zafar

Reply Bapu # 192

Hey – if you’re so paranoid that you can’t accept a compliment on your writing (I DO like reading what you write although I usually find your opinions, assumptions, etc. wrong or offensive) main kya karoon?

Does this cut and paste (again!!!! at least paraphrase, using the metaphors and similes you make up yourself) mean that we should start referring to you know who as Osama bin Laddoo?

Zafar

PS Not yet beach weather but, Inshallah, soon. Since Australia is a multicultural country you know what that means – yes – like in a Hindi film from the 70s – all these women in wet, clinging hijab running into the water….

ZAfar ,Dont advise me anymore,here is a business proposal for you DOWN & UNDER for the coming summer ,or is it al;ready beach time there!

Honey:



American officials say Osama bin Laden uses a network of shops that sell honey to generate income and secretly move weapons, drugs and agents.

One official said honey ranks as one of Al Qaeda`s most important business operations, less for the income it generates than for what he called its ``operational assistance.``

While declining to provide any estimates of the revenue the honey business brings to Al Qaeda, he said the shops allow the organisation to ship contraband like money, weapons and drugs.

``The smell and consistency of the honey makes it easy to hide weapons and drugs in the shipments. Inspectors don`t want to inspect that product. It`s too messy,`` said one official.

The officials say they have evidence that Osama bin Laden is using a network of shops that sell honey, a staple of Middle Eastern life since biblical times, to generate income and secretly move weapons, drugs and agents throughout Al Qaeda, his terrorist network.

``Bin Laden is in control of a number of these retail honey shops and members of his organisation are also involved,`` one administration official said.

The administration is considering adding the names of some of the stores under investigation to a list of people and entities whose assets the US wants frozen by allies around the world. The list, the second that the administration has compiled, is expected to be released as early as the end of this week, officials said.

The honey stores that officials say are controlled by Al Qaeda are found throughout the Middle East as well as in Pakistan. One key location, they said, is Yemen, which produces some of the purest and most expensive honey in the region and which is home to many supporters of bin Laden. The stores, officials said, provide legitimate revenue for bin Laden`s terrorist network.

Officials said intelligence officials had finished a study on the role of honey stores in Al Qaeda earlier this year but have been aware of the importance of these stores and attempting to monitor them for almost two years.

Another terrorist group known to have used honey shops to support its operations is Egyptian Islamic Jihad, officials said. That group, which was headed by Ayman al-Zawahiri, one of bin Laden`s key aides, has effectively merged with Al Qaeda.

The Central Intelligence Agency has been gathering information about Al Qaeda`s ties to the honey trade for several years, but it wasn`t until last May that a top secret report on the honey shops was distributed within the intelligence community, officials said.

Analysts have identified several honey companies they believe are tied to bin Laden. These include Al Shifa Honey Press and Al Nur Honey, both of which are in Yemen, according to US officials.

While officials have long known that bin Laden has used charities, banks and informal financial networks to move money and operatives from country to country, there has been almost nothing about the role of the honey trade in the public record.

But officials said that customs agents in the Middle East had within the last year or two confiscated guns that were hidden in bulk shipments of honey.

Government officials declined comment on the companies being investigated. But Steven Emerson, a private analyst who maintains a vast database on suspected Islamic terrorists and their activities, said that some individuals associated with the two Yemeni honey companies have ties to Al Qaeda.

Emerson said that information his researchers gathered shows that one of the owners of Al Nur Honey, based in Sana, is Muhammad Hamdi Sadiq al-Ahdal, also known as Muhammad al-Hamati and Abu Asim al-Maki. Emerson said that a 1992 article in an Arabic journal described Ahdal as one of the first Arabs to have fought in Afghanistan.

Emerson said that after fighting in Bosnia, Ahdal was detained in Saudi Arabia in 1998 for planning terrorist activities against Saudi Arabia. Upon his release in 1999, he was deported.

Zafar

``while the ideal level of “individual freedom” may be defined differently in different places, the question remains, is it (for example) defined differently for women and for men in a single place and why, and are either group concretely better off because of these definitions?``

It may of may not be defined differently for women and for men - This for for those women and effected for either the lack of difference or differences, to negotiate within the context of their culture, their values, their vision.

Are they better off? We all have our opinions about that, but in effective, practical terms, these conclusions remain primarily with those actors within an given culture and society.

Somewhere along this thread we were talking about religious democracy and it`s goal of a moral society. You had suggested that morality need not be religiously ordained. This is intriguing. Remember, not all religions are defined by the 3 Abrahamic religions, but either way, explain to me how you can conclude that morality does not derive from a religiousity?

Reply Hobbyty #: 170

“… I was hoping to explore was that while a particular ``value`` may be universal, it`s particular expression, need not be the same across cultures and that this does not nullify the value.”

True, but while the ideal level of “individual freedom” may be defined differently in different places, the question remains, is it (for example) defined differently for women and for men in a single place and why, and are either group concretely better off because of these definitions?

Reply Nasah # 172

“Isn`t Zahra a flower and Zohra a star?”

Doubtless. Further semantic discussion seems, however, a bit frought….

Jayaparakash Jee:

``When a man does exactly what a woman expects him to do she does not think much of him. One should always do what a woman does not expect, just as one should say what she does not understand.``

That should conclude the discussion.

:)

Take Care.

Sigalph:

``Whenever people agree with me, I always feel I must be wrong.``

Lady Windermere`s Fan - Oscar Wilde

:)

re zahra`s

``The rest need not produce anything and should head out for an abortion asap. ``

I don`t recall a more cold-blooded call to homicide on this forum. No wonder your language is so laced with blood-curdling femmnazi stuff.

Zahra,

INDIVIDUAL AND THE SOCIETY,

You are relying unduly on the personal experiences to generalise. Each individual is an exception to the rule. Most of the time, i do not delve into the personal details, and individual experiences.

For example dawn is a widely circulated news paper in pakistan. I try to devine the values of the pak society from the reports in this paper, because that represent the average, the societal values.

To give you an example, the burning of the ahmadia mosques in pakistan recently, it did not make the main news, but some letters to the editors were published. Essentially it shows that mosque burning is not news worthy in pakistan.

My favourite topic, when saima was killed, it was the days of nawaz. The elected, let me emphesise, democratically elected representatives of pakistan refused to condemn the killing, let me emphesise, it was just a resolution to condemn the act, let me repeat it was not a legislation to ban honour killing, just a run of the mill condemnation of the killing, was defeated by twothird majority in the legislature.

Zhra, you can give, for that matter a million pakistanis can give their personal affidavits that they have not heard of honour killing, but is undisputable that honourkilling is an accpted norm in pakistan.

If you are interested in social change, focus on the social, on the average, on waht is collectively expressed. Forget about the personal that is irrelevant, every individual is an exception to the social, to the average.

regards and best wishes to see the big picture.

jay

Shah,

I do not have any statistics to give you. I had never been to bihar. Job opportunities in kerala is almost non existant. Un employment statistics could be very high in kerala.

With all of the above as caveats, let me say, you can hardly see a begger in kerala. You will find it very difficult to spot a pawn broker like in most ofthe northern states. Unlike in the cities?US, in the rural setting of kerala no one can remain ``un-employed`. Some neighbour, some cousin is going to call the young man and tell him, you do this etc..etc. and he will not get paid, but as in the cities, he is not sitting all day infront of the TV. May be you can say people are under employed.

It is hard to say what education does to the psyche of people. Unskilled wage rate in kerala is three times that in tamilnadu small towns. Many from tamilnadu live and work, at least I know in Calicut. There is a saying, `` kerala is the gulf for tamilians`` ( apologies to the tamils on chowk).

For all the social indicators, womens education has shown to be accelerant. May be it has something to do with the upkeep of the house, education of the young, ``keeping the men under check``.

By the way, if you want to say that bihar is better than kerala, so be it, I will not argue with you.

regards and best of life in bihar, preferably in tihar.

jay