Declaration of Jehad

This makes sense. The concept of Jehad, may have been relevant in the middle ages,itself seems outdated in todays world. This is today used by mad mullahs to whip relegious passions of common people to achieve their sinister ideals. These medival thoughts and ideas have no place in todays world. Shun these propogators of hate who will lead you to the dark ages and instead take a step into what we have now

THE WORST ARTICLE EVER READ ON CHOWK

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Nuggets from the Urdu press

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Nasibo Lal in trouble

According to Khabrain, folk singer Nasibo Lal, while singing at Gujranwala Arts Council, allowed fuhush (obscene) dancers like Alisha, Khushboo and Lashana, to perform lasciviously in front of a local audience. People responded with great enthusiasm although the event was against the rules of decency. They repeatedly performed bhangra while ignoring ideology of Pakistan.

Milosevic and Osama

Historian of Afghan jehad Raja Anwar, writing in Khabrain, said that if Milosevic could be brought under trial in an international court why couldn`t Pakistan or any other state ensure that Osama bin Laden is brought before an impartial court? He could be punished only if found guilty. Raja Anwar wrote that Afghanistan had given nothing to Pakistan but kalashnikov culture and was not willing to make any concession, not even on the Durand Line.

Mufti Shamzai`s fatwa

According to Nawa-e-Waqt, Mufti Shamzai of Karachi`s Banuri Mosque issued the fatwa that when the Americans land in Pakistan his followers should immediately take over the country`s airports. Fifty thousand followers did bayat-e-jehad (pledge of war) on his hand. He said anyone fighting on the side of Christians against Islam would go to hell.

Sharif brothers part ways

According to daily Din, Nawaz Sharif and Shehbaz Sharif fell apart in their hideaway in Saudi Arabia and that Shehbaz Sharif had bought a residence of his own separately from the family still led by Abbaji. The paper opined that since Shehbaz had decided to part ways with the family he may lose Saudi financial help.

Pakistan`s paradox

Renowned columnist Nazeer Naji wrote in Jang that Pakistan had a strange history of upheavals. Bhutto, a liberal, chose a fundamentalist officer General Zia for promotion to army chief, who overthrew him and converted Pakistan into a fundamentalist state. Bhutto was a secularist but spent more time banning alcohol in Pakistan and apostatising the Ahmedis to please the mullahs. The initial paradox was that Jinnah was a secular leader who was opposed by the mullahs, but later Pakistan was to be moulded in the vision of not Jinnah but mullahs. Then General Zia chose Nawaz Sharif as his heir but in 1997 he was elected for his economic policies; instead he chose to enforce shariat after coming to power. But for a man devoted to shariat he chose General Musharraf, a non-Islamist, to head the army. General Musharraf who toured the cantonments to defend Nawaz Sharif for sacking an earlier chief, was later to remove Nawaz Sharif. And an Islamist army was now ready to get rid of the jehadi mullahs and rid the state of fundamentalism. Nawaz Sharif was opposing his anti-Taliban policy from Saudi Arabia although his brother chief minister Punjab Shehbaz Sharif had clearly said during his tenure that the Taliban were training the terrorists targeting Pakistani leaders.

What will Pakistan give?

Famous columnist Irshad Haqqani wrote in Jang that Pakistan and the US had discussed the matter of Pakistan`s offering landing facilities during the invasion of Afghanistan but there was no discussion on territorial rights. But General Hameed Gul, through a letter, said that he had trimmed his anti-Musharraf position when assured by him that neither land nor landing facilities would be granted to the American troops.

US to take intelligence help

Famous columnist Hussain Haqqani wrote in Jang that during the Afghan war the Americans used Pakistani intelligence to fight the Soviet Union but this cooperation was not really beneficial; but this time, he hoped, it would be more fruitful. This was a crucial point of time in the Pak-US relations.

Osama wanted me killed!

Leader of the PPP Ms Benazir Bhutto said in daily Din that Osama bin Laden paid Nawaz Sharif of the PML ten million dollars to topple her from government through the device of a no confidence vote. She said that Osama also planned to get her killed, but his plans failed twice.

Present land holding against Islam

According to daily Din, Council of Islamic Ideology came to the conclusion that the present land holdings in Pakistan were against Islam and must be undone because the child born in the house of a feudal lived in luxury while the one born in the house of a poor man was deprived. In the past, land reforms were undone by the Federal Shariat Court on the question of annexation of land without payment of market price.

Beaten up for singing `mahiya`

According to daily Pakistan a police officer ASI Shameem Gondal of Malka Hans had the habit of following a lady school teacher singing the mahiya songs of Mansoor Malangi loudly to seduce her into thinking of love. But the school teacher suddenly took off her burqa and started beating him up with her shoe. Other school girls accompanying her joined in and also beat him up with their shoes. After the beating it was discovered that one tooth of the thanedar ASI was broken but he was allowed to go only after he swore on a copy of the Quran and made the school teacher his sister.

It is not aunt`s home!

According to Nawa-e-Waqt, ex-ISI chief General Hameed Gul said that after the Taliban shot down two unmanned spy planes of the United States, the Americans were bound to run away from the battle field. He said all would soon be well because defeating the Taliban was not khala ji ka ghar (easy as being in one`s aunt`s home).

Zia wanted Afghanistan

Quoting a journalist once close to General Zia, Maqbul Sharif, daily Pakistan wrote that General Zia did not want the Russians to leave Pakistan at the end of the Afghan war. He wanted the question of a new government in Kabul resolved before their exit. In fact he wanted to send Pakistani troops to Kabul in the same manner that India had sent its troops to East Pakistan.

Jehadi organisations are fake

Quoted in Jang, ex-ISI chief General Javed Ashraf Qazi said that 90 percent of the organisations engaged in jehad in Kashmir were fake. Hew said leaders like Maulana Fazlur Rehman and Maulana Samiul Haq were interested only in amassing funds and advancing their political ends. If they were sent to Afghanistan to fight they would jump out of the bus and run away. He said in the past the Taliban were warned many times that because of them Pakistan was being labelled a terrorist state but they did not listen.

Israel did it!

Talking to daily Pakistan, Sipah Sahaba chief Maulana Azam Tariq said that those who attacked New York and Washington should be sought in Israel and India because Osama bin Laden was blameless. He said if Afghanistan was attacked he would issue fatwa for the murder of Americans and Israelis. He said America wanted to attack Pakistan`s nuclear installations while pretending to attack Afghanistan. He added that there would be civil war in Pakistan if Islamabad continued to support the Americans.

Hekmatyar will join Taliban!

Editor Ausaf Hamid Mir wrote that if Pakistan were to sever relations with the Taliban in the wake of similar action by the UAE and Saudi Arabia, it will force two offended Afghan leaders, Hekmatyar and Sayyaf, to join the Taliban and make an anti-Pakistan alliance. This new alliance will stop the advance of the Northern Alliance but Pakistan would be forever deprived of the friendship of its precious Afghan brethren.

Allah will answer Mulla Umar`s call!

According to Khabrain Mulla Umar of Afghanistan had prayed to Allah for special intervention against the American attack, as a result of which Allah had sent down a storm off the coast of Karachi as a sign. Before this, Salahuddin Ayubi had also prayed like Mulla Umar and his prayer was heard and a Christians army was caused to be gharq (sunk) by Allah.

A Lahori heir to Afghan throne speaks out!

According to daily Din, Ashraf Durrani of Lahore was discovered to be in the line of descent of Ahmad Shah Abdali Durrani who established the first Afghan empire. Ashraf Durrani formally laid claim to the throne of Afghanistan and stated that the Afghan people were not satisfied with the government of the Taliban. He also laid claim to the diamonds presently owned by the Queen of England and said that the diamond had belonged to his ancestor Shah Shuja.

Allama Iqbal`s joy

Famous historian Dr Safdar Mehmood wrote in Nawa-e-Waqt that Allama Iqbal would have been overjoyed to see that the civilisation of the West was no longer obsessed by women but by a bearded man called Osama bin Laden.

Ms Mazari is anti-America

According to Ausaf, former chairman of the state-run Institute of Strategic Studies in Islamabad, Mr Niaz A. Naik, wrote to the Foreign Office saying that the present chairman of the institute, Dr Shireen Mazari, was anti-American and was harming the interests of Pakistan by writing against the United States. The paper said that upon an inquiry made by the Foreign Office, ex-foreign minister Agha Shahi stated that she had criticised the United States while defending the interests of Pakistan.

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re: Gowardhan # 202

Gowardhan,

You have milked this joke as much as you could, or should.

If I want to believe that the moon is made of Swiss cheese, who the heck are you to stop me from doing so? Let people believe what they want to. There are all kinds of crappy things some Hindus believe in. You will spend your time and effort better if you focused attention on enligtening your co-religionists.

That is, ofcourse, assuming that your time and effort are worth anything.

anny,

Thing is some people actually believe this. If just talking about it is offensive, how offensive is believing in it?

Gowardhan

i see - that explains the sweet endearing terms used to refer to each other. Have fun !!

aicha

mr. gowy

im not sure if its in the quran or in some hadith but apparently the wine in jannat is supposed to be the kind that does not induce nasha which is the only reason that alcohol is prohibited in islam- one takes leave of ones senses and (imo) a man who is unaware of what he is doing, is not a man.

your tone, is very offensive

Reply Hobbyty # 195

HT

``It may of may not be defined differently for women and for men - This for those women and men effected by either the lack of difference or differences, to negotiate, within the context of their culture, their values, their vision.``

We all negotiate meaning in context of our cultures. I’m missing the specific significance here. ??

“Whether organized or disorganized, what`s that got to do with it - how have explained that morality does not arise out of religion? Is not all morality religion?”

How would you define religion?

Aicha,

He He. Those naked buxom women and free-flowing booze is very attractive. Now I know why those Jihadis are so ``religious`` and read the book many times a day.

Always wanted to have a harem of naked women.

Fatimah?

Gowardhan - thinking of switching ??

Thats A-OK and you dont have to be so bashful about it : )

aicha

I am curious. How does booze flow freely and men get dozens of naked women to frolick around in paradize when on earth drinks are strictly barred and women are told to ``dress modestly``?

Zafar

Sorry, it shud read as flws:

``It may of may not be defined differently for women and for men - This for those women and men effected by either the lack of difference or differences, to negotiate, within the context of their culture, their values, their vision.``

Whether organized or disorganized, what`s that got to do with it - how have explained that morality does not arise out of religion? Is not all morality religion?

Reply Hobbyty # 191

Mian

“It may of may not be defined differently for women and for men - This for for those women and effected for either the lack of difference or differences, to negotiate within the context of their culture, their values, their vision.”

Please rephrase. Yeh mere samajh men nahin aya.

“Are they better off? We all have our opinions about that, but in effective, practical terms, these conclusions remain primarily with those actors within an given culture and society.”

Asking women whether they feel they have equal benefits and status to men in their society is probably a good place to start. Kuen ke mendak is a phrase that was originally coined by ladies who lived in purdah in the subcontinent to describe themselves.

“You had suggested that morality need not be religiously ordained. This is intriguing. Remember, not all religions are defined by the 3 Abrahamic religions, but either way, explain to me how you can conclude that morality does not derive from a religiousity?”

Cultural norms are a function of history (including interaction with, or understanding of religion). If organised religion fades in importance, does it mean that morality also declines? I would say that it doesn’t, though the definition of what is moral and immoral certainly changes. The improvement of women`s rights in those societies where organised religion has declined in importance is thought provoking.

Hang in there

Zafar

Reply Bapu # 192

Hey – if you’re so paranoid that you can’t accept a compliment on your writing (I DO like reading what you write although I usually find your opinions, assumptions, etc. wrong or offensive) main kya karoon?

Does this cut and paste (again!!!! at least paraphrase, using the metaphors and similes you make up yourself) mean that we should start referring to you know who as Osama bin Laddoo?

Zafar

PS Not yet beach weather but, Inshallah, soon. Since Australia is a multicultural country you know what that means – yes – like in a Hindi film from the 70s – all these women in wet, clinging hijab running into the water….

ZAfar ,Dont advise me anymore,here is a business proposal for you DOWN & UNDER for the coming summer ,or is it al;ready beach time there!

Honey:



American officials say Osama bin Laden uses a network of shops that sell honey to generate income and secretly move weapons, drugs and agents.

One official said honey ranks as one of Al Qaeda`s most important business operations, less for the income it generates than for what he called its ``operational assistance.``

While declining to provide any estimates of the revenue the honey business brings to Al Qaeda, he said the shops allow the organisation to ship contraband like money, weapons and drugs.

``The smell and consistency of the honey makes it easy to hide weapons and drugs in the shipments. Inspectors don`t want to inspect that product. It`s too messy,`` said one official.

The officials say they have evidence that Osama bin Laden is using a network of shops that sell honey, a staple of Middle Eastern life since biblical times, to generate income and secretly move weapons, drugs and agents throughout Al Qaeda, his terrorist network.

``Bin Laden is in control of a number of these retail honey shops and members of his organisation are also involved,`` one administration official said.

The administration is considering adding the names of some of the stores under investigation to a list of people and entities whose assets the US wants frozen by allies around the world. The list, the second that the administration has compiled, is expected to be released as early as the end of this week, officials said.

The honey stores that officials say are controlled by Al Qaeda are found throughout the Middle East as well as in Pakistan. One key location, they said, is Yemen, which produces some of the purest and most expensive honey in the region and which is home to many supporters of bin Laden. The stores, officials said, provide legitimate revenue for bin Laden`s terrorist network.

Officials said intelligence officials had finished a study on the role of honey stores in Al Qaeda earlier this year but have been aware of the importance of these stores and attempting to monitor them for almost two years.

Another terrorist group known to have used honey shops to support its operations is Egyptian Islamic Jihad, officials said. That group, which was headed by Ayman al-Zawahiri, one of bin Laden`s key aides, has effectively merged with Al Qaeda.

The Central Intelligence Agency has been gathering information about Al Qaeda`s ties to the honey trade for several years, but it wasn`t until last May that a top secret report on the honey shops was distributed within the intelligence community, officials said.

Analysts have identified several honey companies they believe are tied to bin Laden. These include Al Shifa Honey Press and Al Nur Honey, both of which are in Yemen, according to US officials.

While officials have long known that bin Laden has used charities, banks and informal financial networks to move money and operatives from country to country, there has been almost nothing about the role of the honey trade in the public record.

But officials said that customs agents in the Middle East had within the last year or two confiscated guns that were hidden in bulk shipments of honey.

Government officials declined comment on the companies being investigated. But Steven Emerson, a private analyst who maintains a vast database on suspected Islamic terrorists and their activities, said that some individuals associated with the two Yemeni honey companies have ties to Al Qaeda.

Emerson said that information his researchers gathered shows that one of the owners of Al Nur Honey, based in Sana, is Muhammad Hamdi Sadiq al-Ahdal, also known as Muhammad al-Hamati and Abu Asim al-Maki. Emerson said that a 1992 article in an Arabic journal described Ahdal as one of the first Arabs to have fought in Afghanistan.

Emerson said that after fighting in Bosnia, Ahdal was detained in Saudi Arabia in 1998 for planning terrorist activities against Saudi Arabia. Upon his release in 1999, he was deported.

Zafar

``while the ideal level of “individual freedom” may be defined differently in different places, the question remains, is it (for example) defined differently for women and for men in a single place and why, and are either group concretely better off because of these definitions?``

It may of may not be defined differently for women and for men - This for for those women and effected for either the lack of difference or differences, to negotiate within the context of their culture, their values, their vision.

Are they better off? We all have our opinions about that, but in effective, practical terms, these conclusions remain primarily with those actors within an given culture and society.

Somewhere along this thread we were talking about religious democracy and it`s goal of a moral society. You had suggested that morality need not be religiously ordained. This is intriguing. Remember, not all religions are defined by the 3 Abrahamic religions, but either way, explain to me how you can conclude that morality does not derive from a religiousity?

Reply Hobbyty #: 170

“… I was hoping to explore was that while a particular ``value`` may be universal, it`s particular expression, need not be the same across cultures and that this does not nullify the value.”

True, but while the ideal level of “individual freedom” may be defined differently in different places, the question remains, is it (for example) defined differently for women and for men in a single place and why, and are either group concretely better off because of these definitions?

Reply Nasah # 172

“Isn`t Zahra a flower and Zohra a star?”

Doubtless. Further semantic discussion seems, however, a bit frought….

Jayaparakash Jee:

``When a man does exactly what a woman expects him to do she does not think much of him. One should always do what a woman does not expect, just as one should say what she does not understand.``

That should conclude the discussion.

:)

Take Care.

Sigalph:

``Whenever people agree with me, I always feel I must be wrong.``

Lady Windermere`s Fan - Oscar Wilde

:)

re zahra`s

``The rest need not produce anything and should head out for an abortion asap. ``

I don`t recall a more cold-blooded call to homicide on this forum. No wonder your language is so laced with blood-curdling femmnazi stuff.

Zahra,

INDIVIDUAL AND THE SOCIETY,

You are relying unduly on the personal experiences to generalise. Each individual is an exception to the rule. Most of the time, i do not delve into the personal details, and individual experiences.

For example dawn is a widely circulated news paper in pakistan. I try to devine the values of the pak society from the reports in this paper, because that represent the average, the societal values.

To give you an example, the burning of the ahmadia mosques in pakistan recently, it did not make the main news, but some letters to the editors were published. Essentially it shows that mosque burning is not news worthy in pakistan.

My favourite topic, when saima was killed, it was the days of nawaz. The elected, let me emphesise, democratically elected representatives of pakistan refused to condemn the killing, let me emphesise, it was just a resolution to condemn the act, let me repeat it was not a legislation to ban honour killing, just a run of the mill condemnation of the killing, was defeated by twothird majority in the legislature.

Zhra, you can give, for that matter a million pakistanis can give their personal affidavits that they have not heard of honour killing, but is undisputable that honourkilling is an accpted norm in pakistan.

If you are interested in social change, focus on the social, on the average, on waht is collectively expressed. Forget about the personal that is irrelevant, every individual is an exception to the social, to the average.

regards and best wishes to see the big picture.

jay

Shah,

I do not have any statistics to give you. I had never been to bihar. Job opportunities in kerala is almost non existant. Un employment statistics could be very high in kerala.

With all of the above as caveats, let me say, you can hardly see a begger in kerala. You will find it very difficult to spot a pawn broker like in most ofthe northern states. Unlike in the cities?US, in the rural setting of kerala no one can remain ``un-employed`. Some neighbour, some cousin is going to call the young man and tell him, you do this etc..etc. and he will not get paid, but as in the cities, he is not sitting all day infront of the TV. May be you can say people are under employed.

It is hard to say what education does to the psyche of people. Unskilled wage rate in kerala is three times that in tamilnadu small towns. Many from tamilnadu live and work, at least I know in Calicut. There is a saying, `` kerala is the gulf for tamilians`` ( apologies to the tamils on chowk).

For all the social indicators, womens education has shown to be accelerant. May be it has something to do with the upkeep of the house, education of the young, ``keeping the men under check``.

By the way, if you want to say that bihar is better than kerala, so be it, I will not argue with you.

regards and best of life in bihar, preferably in tihar.

jay

Jayaprakash:

I had meant to say in my past post, ``E.O.D.`` But reading your vichaar, I guess I have to withhold my ``E.O.D.`` The followng post has three sections. They are addressing certain aspects that are well-linked, but have their own standing. Have a good read!

I)

Despite the fact, that I didn`t understand very well, the context of your two examples, I think I can infer what you were alluding to. In my view, many Pakistani Men would not like their women to go out to a police station even to report a theft case. Why? It`s something to do with the role of men in our society. The men would like that issue to be routed through them than the women taking the initiave on their own. So, many times, it is not that the women cannot go on their own and/or raise voice on their own, but they end up complying with the norms. And it`s considered strange, if they take on this responsibility on their own. It`s like: don`t they have men in their family to take care of these isses? This is a ridiculous way of thinking, but it still exists. If someone believes in this kind of notion, then what about those, who do not have any men in their immediate family? What about those who are widows? Who are orphans? Religiously, it`s incumbent upon the family men to assist the women or if they are not there, then the society/neighborhood should do so. I have seen this in my own family where my father would support some of our very old neighbors that ab`bu had known since his childhood days. The elderly men had passed away and in fact, there were two widows, who only lived in the family house with their kids. This is my very early childhood memory(I was hardly 6-7 years old). On each Eid, my father would go and take the Eidee for the kids of that house. In fact, both my parents(as both were earning)would give their zakat to them. I gave an example to mention that I was not talking of fiction here.

Times have changed for the better, as I would like to think. Or probably, times have changed for a certain class, with a certain thinking pattern, in our society. Since you only get to see the picture of Pakistan and its society from the newspapers: who are there to capture as well as sensationalize all the events; therefore, you will not see everything that`s out there. Interestingly, I have met with quite a few Indians, who had ties from different parts of West Punjab. Personally, I felt that their concept of (our side) is so different, from what it is - that they cannot, any more, assume based on what they knew of. Going back, to my thought on preconceived notions:

- Do bad things still happen? Yes, 101%.
- Can anything be done for their tadarak? Yes.
- Have we continued practising some of the old traditional bad habits? Yes.
- Would we continue carrying that nahoosut with us? Yes! Unless, we do not stop and analyze, we will continue repeating the same mistakes - be it in our culture or in our values or in our way of state related affairs.


II)

I was at a family wedding a few days back, where one uncle, a worldbank economist, who has been assisting the current government, in resolving the internal loans` issues, emphasized very vehemently, on the role of women in any future government in Pakistan and in structuring the country`s future direction. Again, my initial point that was rudely interrupted by some egocentric lunatics, had a lot of depth and meaning to it. I, still very vehemently believe, that if your women, are dumb idiots, then they will produce garbage. Ok, critics will say that you cannot generalize it. Fine. It`s just like you cannot generalize anything in life. But somethings, do have a tendency, to follow a definitive pattern.

Only a woman, who realizes the role and responsibility, of the children she produces, regardless of their gender, can add to the future of Pakistan. The rest need not produce anything and should head out for an abortion asap. We have enough morons and buffoons already alive and breathing. Why corrupt your planet any more? On the other hand, I must mention that a woman does not raise a child on her own; it`s the parents, who add to the development and nourishment and personality of the child. So both, play a significant role.

In general, mothers play a very strong role, in the lives, as well as, character building of their sons. That`s the point that we should keep in mind for all times to come. Oh, I hope in your part of India, it`s still women who are into child-bearing. Hopefully, the roles have not reversed? So, please do not ever ever challenge their strength; and weigh them in a pul`uR`aa of weak and strong. I have read somewhere that behind every great man, there is a woman. Now, it does not say strong man. It says great man. I hope you can differentiate between the concepts of strength and greatness. We need great men and not necessarily strong men in Pakistan. The concept of strength, can corrupt human mind very easily. The concept of greatness, evolves, flourishes and nourishes a human soul, that in return, develops a sweet bhaloo :)


III)

On Chowk, I do not think any woman from Pakistan, whether a writer or an interactor, holds that view, which says, ``it`s FINE that woman should be mistreated.`` When you are raised with love and respect, then you do not have to bring those points again and again. You take them for granted. But there is something here that woke me up with a big thud. I am trying to think how to compose my thoughts on the above revelation...thinking... thinking...thinking. OK!

Life, in one`s family structure, is very different, from what exists outside, of it. Yes, if you are raised with values, priniciples, love and care - you are prone to practising as well as imagining the same. But sometimes, you do run into incidents amongst your friends/friend`s friends/family/extended family that alert you to be cautious, in making any assumptions or I should say taking things for granted.

Like, one of my friends(I have known her for a couple of years only), was raised without giving a second thought to money matters and came from a liberal background. She ended up marrying a kunjoos insaan. She married someone of her choice, which is quite common and ususual in my surroundings; but she never looked into analyzing this fellow`s character or I should say characteristics. As a result, the marriage is on the rocks, after 3 years or so, and the major issue is: finances. She works, but she cannot spend her own money without permission. This is in the US. I simply could not believe this. Personally, I would rip a man`s head apart, and kick him out, if I ever hear, this kind of rubbish. I was simply amazed to hear the compromise she was making to keep her marriage alive and going.

In short, when you move outside of your comfort zone, parents` nest, and close friends` circle with whom you grew up - you end up being exposed to the world outside. Sometimes, you are surprised; other times, you cannot imagine those things happening to you or to your loved ones. The aforementioned should not imply, that one should stay like a shutr-murgh and hide one`s neck in the sand - considering that to be a safe haven with a fluffy(mulaim)pillow.

On the contrary, one must come out in the world, take on challenges and responsibilities, and swim without being eaten by the sharks, based on one`s values and teachings. I also believe if there is something in a person, he/she will survive. If there isn`t, then the writing will be pretty much on the wall. Reminds me of a saying that I always had outside my door when I was a Resident Advisor in school, ``If you do not stand for something, you can fall for anything.``

Lastly, there are gender related issues at all levels in our society. There are ego related issues prevalent everywhere, regardless of the social standing. So, in my opinion, it`s not so easy to eliminate all the problems by doing xyz. But then, I do not know everything. And I may take my time to even acquire the understanding of certain aspects that are beyond my own comprehension due to my thought process and a very independent persona.

With that said, I will depart. I have another journey to take on :)


Best Wishes!

Happy Reading!

Nice Weekend!

unkal jay:

``Ofcorse I know what you are talking about, the womens lib ideas. My daughter grew up in one such society and *she always used to get annoyed why I asked more questions about where she is going and who her fiends are when compared to my son. *

I tell you what I told her, I grew up in a pimitive socierty, there are the values from there, it is difficult for me to change now, but try to understand``

why, thats just like my dad! :)

Zahra,

I do live in a primitive society where there are seats reserved for women in the buses and trains, where there are womens and mens toilets. I live in a uncivilised world where a woman carrying a child in arms can walk to the most criminal notorious area and can be a certain that no one will interfere with her.

Ofcorse I know what you are talking about, the womens lib ideas. My daughter grew up in one such society and she always used to get annoyed why I asked more questions about where she is going and who her fiends are when compared to my son.

I tell you what I told her, I grew up in a pimitive socierty, there are the values from there, it is difficult for me to change now, but try to understand. But i will understand if you cannot understand.

By the way, jihad is for men only, and what aythority zeejaha has got to write about it. You having raised the feminist question.

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Jayaprakash:

On the weaker ones: I found, an indirect reference to women, being the, weaker ones. I do not think you realized what you wrote. Do not tell me that in your surroundings, men are the ones who bear kids? Do they? Really! Must be a spectacular phenomenon! We learn something new every day. Amazing!

There is a good number of men, out there, way too weak, both mentally and spiritually. So, weakness canNOT be gender specific. OK!

Next time, please do not allude to such inflammatory remarks; avoid satisfying your gender related ego.

Regards.

Zafar Al Talib to Zahra #166

``Dear Madame President Zohra``

Dear Zafar Al-Talib:

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Isn`t Zahra a flower and Zohra a star? -- but then Zahar is also poison -- but then again -- Zahra couldn`t be the poisonous one by any means?

Zafar

With regard to indexical, I was thinking along the lines of it applicaplibility to a particular culture and a particular time - And though I had not thought of it in the sense you put it (Which and What), I find these interesting. Here too, the notion of ``indexical`` would apply, if we were focus on ``Which Rights`` and ``what is a value`` - to whom? and when?

To I was hoping to explore was that while a particular ``value`` may be universal, it`s particular expression, need not be the same across cultures and that this does not nullify the value. For example, murder is a crime punishable by death in one culture and by life imprisonment in another. In both cases the ``value`` is the value of a life.

On the changes in the way women make a living in Kerala - How has this changed for large or significant numbers of women, in the last 50 yrs? I get the higher education=better job part, but I don`t know much about the particular dynamic regarding what women used to do and how that has changed.

Zafar

With regard to indexical, I was thinking along the lines of it applicaplibility to a particular culture and a particular time - And though I had not thought of it in the sense you put it (Which and What), I find these interesting. Here too, the notion of ``indexical`` would apply, if we were focus on ``Which Rights`` and ``what is a value`` - to whom? and when?

To I was hoping to explore was that while a particular ``value`` may be universal, it`s particular expression, need not be the same across cultures and that this does not nullify the value. For example, murder is a crime punishable by death in one culture and by life imprisonment in another. In both cases the ``value`` is the value of a life.

On the changes in the way women make a living in Kerala - How has this changed for large or significant numbers of women, in the last 50 yrs? I get the higher education=better job part, but I don`t know much about the particular dynamic regarding what women used to do and how that has changed.

Reply Zahra # 168

[``Zafar`al`Talib:

There was no uncivil jibe towards Jayaprakash. By saying ``high on something,`` I implied ``advocating`` than being ``under the influence`` of a drug. I appreciate your attempt to infer, and am glad that you cared to inquire. Please always adopt that route in future as well.

Polite Wishes.

PS: Please accept my apologies for the lack of interest in Kerala and its natives.``]



Dear Madame President

I am relieved that there is no bad feeling between you and Mr Jayaprakash. Thank you for your affirmation of my approach to these things - with this kind of encouragement I will be sure to continue in this manner.

It is disappointing to hear of your disinterest in things Keralite. I hear that it is a very beautiful part of the world, and they tell me that travel broadens the mind ;)

Best wishes,

Zafar Al-Talib

PS I always thought I knew how to spell my last name correctly, but will now recheck it with my mother, just to be on the safe side. Till then please bear with me.

Zafar`al`Talib:

There was no uncivil jibe towards Jayaprakash. By saying ``high on something,`` I implied ``advocating`` than being ``under the influence`` of a drug. I appreciate your attempt to infer, and am glad that you cared to inquire. Please always adopt that route in future as well.

Polite Wishes.

PS: Please accept my apologies for the lack of interest in Kerala and its natives.

Jayaprakash:

[I wrote the following as Part 1 of my previous post, but I did not post it. I thought of changing my mind, but I was not sure. I contemplated on my reason, and it made me revisit my decision. I allowed the battle to go on; and finally, I decided to post it. Sorry for the unnecessary disruption! Intent is, to take a snapshot and portray the results.]

``All these are attackes on the weaker, done by a society that sorry, Zahra, you are a part of. How many articles have any of you ( i mean the educated women of pakistan) have written to voice your opposition. Zeejha on interpreting an accomodating jihad, bina sha on a hindu girl being married to a dog, aisha sarwari on something equally trivial, some other female journalist on paki mangos.``


I appreciate your valid concerns. I think it has a lot to do with the fact, that when we, ourselves, do not see, ourselves, in any of the above situations, we have a hard time even imagining those. That`s a reality! I have spent 20 something years in Pakistan, and I have never ever known of the practice of honor killing. In recent years, it has gained more attention, which is certainly great. So, you should not assume that all Pakistanis are exposed to all kinds of things going on within their own country. Reading an akhbar is very different from living in a place where cruel practices were/are prevalent. Ok, it may have something to do with the sheltered environment.

I have been thinking of the horrible murder of the young lawyer in KHI, whose neighbor poisoned him to death. I found it damn cruel and distasteful. Unbelievable! Sad! Depressing! In my family, some of my father’s best friends had ties with our family for many many decades. Some of them were our neighbors, whereas, others were late grandfather’s colleagues. One family, staunch Shiites, has been our family friends, for over a century now. The kids from both the families, knew each other very well; and have kept in touch with each other, even after leaving, for different parts of the world. One of them, my father`s contemporary, was with ab`bu from class prep till the law college. Both ab`bu and uncle have studied together and would narrate their childhood adventures, occasionally. Whenever, I head out to California, I have to say hello to uncle, in person [as he reminds me of the different stages of my father’s student life – a very special person]; and interestingly, a very sweet gesture awaits me, on all my trips. He would set a pretty rose in a vase, from his rose garden; and leave a note in my room, reading: ``I welcome my dearest childhood friend’s daughter to my place and hope that she enjoys her stay.`` He always does that. He is a pretty scholarly fellow: a lawyer, a professor and a writer; and has been writing quite actively on different legislative acts in California. Whenever, we reconvene, and talk about the current affairs, many issues are brought up, and one of them is, honor-killing; besides, the current mania of Shiites` killings. There is an immense sadness and shock in his eyes - kind of saying: this is unheard of! This isn`t how we have ever heard of women being treated in and around our families. Interestingly, he has many female family members and they all love him to death and vice versa. Interestingly, my father has four sisters, who are worshipped by him and vice versa. I gave the details, to let you know, that I cannot relate to the honor killing episodes, in anyway or shape. I could never comprehend this concept. So, that says, something, for my own ignorance, on the subject. Then, everyone does not think alike. All women are not raised alike. All men do not think, of their daughters, the same way. All men, don’t/won’t let their daughters, exercise their mind/heart, when it comes to taking major steps in their lives. By the grace of God, most of my father’s colleagues had daughters, with strong personalities and the parents were encouraging and always stood by their daughters. So, ideally, I would like to think that jahilae` mutliq men commit such heinous crimes [the crimes that you’ve brought up]. But reading the case of Saima, who was killed in the lawyer’s office, I cannot even say the above with full confidence anymore. If I further look into this matter, there can be educated jahilae’mutliqs as well. I just got acquainted to ``this`` term, in the past few years; but I must mention that it’s a sick concept. Unfortunately, it has been catching a lot of attention for some obvious reasons - the tendency to have control over others` lives, may be? may be not!.


PS: This was meant to be read only. :)

Take Care.

Reply Zahra # 162

“Dear Mr.Bhaloo G: [Zafar`ul`Talib ]

Are you suggesting that Jayaprakash is from Kerala and that`s why he is so high on the concept of self-defined women rights?”

Dear Madame President Zohra

Your response raises some interesting questions.

1 Are only people from Kerala supposed to be interested in women’s rights? Why not the rest of us? (I’d assume that all decent people would be.) Are you insinuating that Asma Jehangir is an under cover Malayali?

2 What are self-defined women’s rights? Women’s rights as defined by women? I’d assume so, but am willing to be persuaded otherwise if you feel that I am wrong. What’s wrong with that, anyway?

“Thanks for your vichaar.“

A bhashan, actually, but you are most welcome. It was a pleasure and I hope that you found it useful.

Respectful regards,

Zafar Al-Talib

PS I do not feel qualified to comment in depth on the drug reference, but confess that it seemed somewhat random. Surely Mr Jay does not deserve this kind of uncivil jibe.

Reply Hobbyty # 163

Hobbyty

“Zafar, would I be correct in understanding that in the statement above you mean to suggest ``Status and rights, equality, values`` as being defined and understood within a particular indexical context?”

Language is a “particular indexical context”, if I understand the term correctly. (If anybody – er, Fuzair Bhaijaan? If it’s not too much trouble - can define it properly please help out here. I can’t, except vaguely: the definition of X means that it is not everything else – is this right? Am I totally confused here?) So yes. Not sure if those terms differ so much in their meaning from one culture to another, though WHICH rights and WHICH values may well differ. (As opposed to “WHAT is a right?” and “WHAT is a value” which is where the indexical context comes in.)

“And are you suggesting that ``status and rights``, ``equality`` is a function of women`s perception of themselves, and their perception of men and men`s perception of themselves and their perception of women.”

Absolutely. Two sides of the same coin. So also a function of men’s perceptions, and how the two gender’s perceptions interact and duke it out in a socioeconomic space.

“And if it is true that the way men and women earn or make a living effects these perceptions - what changes in the way women earn or make a living in Kerala, do think contribute to the kinds of values and the kind of equality you suggest exist in Kerala?”

Higher literacy = greater ability to participate in paid workforce = greater appreciation of quantified contribution to family = more respect = higher status and more influence = more freedom.

Zafar

Zafar 161,

I do agree with you, and the metaphor was essentially to say that womens rights, or essentially the rights of the minorities and weaker sections of the society is a good indicator the `decency` of the society.

Women in travelling in buses with may be $10,000 worth of jewellary on their necks is worth watching, no one is afraid of chain snatchers.

Of course the fact is that a place like kerala cannot survive with out the catchment of the rest of india, gulf etc. It is a ``money order`` economy, it is the ones who work outside kerala that are supporting the high wage rates and community infrastructure.

By the way, following the bombing and the potential for other unrests, many muslims, especially the big beared ones from other parts of india are sheltering in kerala. I was having a chat with my relatives the other day and asked them about the potential for riots in Calicut. They said that muslims are really worried about unrest, they being relatively well off are worried that they will be the loosers in any unrest and are dobbing in the slightest extremists.

May be there is something to learn about the WTC bombers.

regards

Jay

Zafar Al-Talib

`` The status and rights of women in any society are a good indicator of whether that society values equality and enables individuals to enjoy a variety of freedoms.``

Zafar, would I be correct in understanding that in the statement above you mean to suggest ``Status and rights, equality, values`` as being defined and understood within a particular indexical context?

And are you suggesting that ``status and rights``, ``equality`` is a function of women`s perception of themselves, and their perception of men and men`s perception of themselves and their perception of women, And if it is true that the way men and women earn or make a living effects these perceptions - what changes in the way women earn or make a living in Kerala, do think contribute to the kinds of values and the kind of equality you suggest exist in Kerala?

Dear Mr.Bhaloo G: [Zafar`ul`Talib ]

Are you suggesting that Jayaprakash is from Kerala and that`s why he is so high on the concept of self-defined women rights?

Thanks for your vichaar.

Regards.

Reply Zahra # 159

``Women are the miners’ canaries; when they fall over the end is not very far.``

Zahraji

I don’t presume to speak for Jay, but it does seem a slightly eccentric way of making a very valid point. (I can’t comment on the appropriateness of comparing women and canaries, but I doubt if his intent was to be impolite about women.) The status and rights of women in any society are a good indicator of whether that society values equality and enables individuals to enjoy a variety of freedoms.

In India, for example, while women are equal in the eyes of the law they often suffer from a pronounced lack of equality in day to day life (especially when they are not members of the elite). I think that this very basic heirarchical assigning of worth based on gender is the same pattern which is then played out in assigning greater and lesser rights in terms of majority/minority, Hindu/Muslim, rich/poor, urban/rural, high caste/low caste, educated/uneducated, married/unmarried, straight/gay, light skinned/dark skinned…the list could go on and on.

Basically the pattern seems to assign less worth to people who do not conform to the “norm” (however that is defined). Gender seems to be the most basic differential, and if that is seen as an indicator of worth, the other discriminations (and I would say many of these are as much internal as external) follow. Any change in womens’ position in society seems to be shadowed by changes in the way that society deals with other differences – good or bad.

I don’t think it is a coincidence, for example, that women in Kerala enjoy a higher level of equality with their male peers than anywhere else in India and that Kerala also has the highest level of literacy in the country (close to 100% I think), one of the flattest income distributions, one of the lowest rates of communal conflict (despite some flare-ups, they aren’t perfect) and a much smaller difference between the income of urban and rural people. Interestingly, although Kerala used to have a highly complex and rigid caste system (including things like not letting an untouchable’s shadow fall on a Brahmin) this has now essentially faded away, certainly in comparison to other parts of India. There is no Nair party.

Compare this with the Indo-Gangetic plain in parts of Uttar Pradesh and Bihar – women have far fewer rights in practice there (certainly outside the major metros) and, consistent with this, literacy is low, the urban/rural economic divide is high, casteism is much stonger than elsewhere in the country, income distribution is extremely uneven and communal relations are the worst in the country. This pattern can be seen throughout the country. I realise that all these things contribute to each other, but I think that women’s rights is the most basic, and perhaps the most influential of the lot. My point is not that we should all move to Kerala, but that women’s rights say a lot about a society.

Best wishes,

Zafar

Ref Shah #: 158

[Jay (gowardhan,Harimou,Sux,..)

Kashmir -indan govt judge ,jury & executioneer]

Not enough executions, in my opinion.

Jayaprakash:

``Women are the miners canaries, when they fall over, the end is not very far.``

I am really offended by the above metaphor. Apparently, you displayed some qaul-o-fale-kaa-tazaad here[did not practice what you preached]. On one hand, you were very vocal on women`s rights; but on the other hand, you have been constantly dictating them what to write.

-Why should a woman always follow the advice of a man?

-Why should she write on a subject that is fed to her than otherwise?

-Has anyone told the south (east) asian bhaloos on chowk to write xyz than abc?

-Can anyone tell them[sweet bhaloos]to address women related issues in their articles, for they are the ones who inflict such tortures than vice versa?

You will never do that. Why? I know the reason damn well.

In short, Jayaprakash, you still want to keep the remote control in your hand. Tough Luck! Ain`t happening!!!

You cannot go and dictate any female to write on your favorite subject. It’s her prerogative. Despite the fact that your initial point had some weight, it lost its essence when deeply analyzed.


PS: The term ``bhaloos`` should not offend anyone. There are all kinds of bhaloos on the face of earth: good ones and bad ones. I have read enough nonsense by some ``bad bhaloos`` regarding women’s attire and etc on chowk; it’s time to tell the ``bhaloos`` that they are ``walking-talking-bhaloos.`` If it offends the ones, who require proper arms’ waxing (not shaving: harmful for the human skin), they better take care of it. I wish them a safe journey!

Kind Regards!

:)

Shah 153,

You are another typical pakistani, who cannot understand the significance of honour killing. In a `modern` society it is the unwritten norm that the same person cannot be the judge, jury and the executioner, there is some notion of due process. What is significant about honour killing is that all those nor,ms are violated and the allegedly modern high court of lahore says that the above type of killing is perfectly legal in pakistan.

Legalistation of honour killing, not the killing itself, is the significant aspect of the pak society. There are not many pakistanis who can understand the import of the distinction, having grown up with a few killings in the familiy nad neighbourhoods, I can understand, shah, your perplexity, what is there to talk about, as is the response of most pakistanis.

regards and best wishes to keep up the honour and very many happy killings.

jay

sigalph#235 OK. You win this one, boss.

sigalph #132 Wasps nevertheless in general adopt children not linked to them by blood, and south asians in general do not. There are exceptions to every rule. So my basic point remains valid, dont you think?

Reply Sigalph # 151

[Tahmed: ``Being south asian, females are either sex objects or else close relatives who are there to serve the Master of the House.``

Sigalph:

``1. Begum Shaista Suhrawardy Ikramullah

2. Fatima Jinnah

3. Indira Gandhi

4. Srimavo Bandarnaike

5. Begum Khaleda Zia

6. Benazir Bhutto

7. Abida Hussain

8. Sheikh Hasina Wajed

9.Jayalalitha

10. Asma Jehangir

11. Sarojini Naidu

Need I go on to demonstrate the knee-jerk absurdity of your back-handed dip into intellectual short-sightedness?``]

Ummm...most of these seem to have at least gotten their start as politically powerful individuals due to their connection with....a politically powerful man. The only exception to this seems to be Asma Jehangir, but I`m happy to be corrected.

Zafar

re tahmed

``Being south asian, these frustrated couples would of course not dream of adopting an orphan and thereby solving their problem (and the orphan`s problem as well).``

The danger in assuming too much. I was talking about my colleagues, mostly WASPS.

re tahmed

``Being south asian, females are either sex objects or else close relatives who are there to serve the Master of the House.``

1. Begum Shaista Suhrawardy Ikramullah

2. Fatima Jinnah

3. Indira Gandhi

4. Srimavo Bandarnaike

5. Begum Khaleda Zia

6. Benazir Bhutto

7. Abida Hussain

8. Sheikh Hasina Wajed

9.Jayalalitha

10. Asma Jehangir

11. Sarojini Naidu

Need I go on to demonstrate the knee-jerk absurdity of your back-handed dip into intellectual short-sightedness?

Zeejha,

Thanks for the URLs and I did scan through a few. They are the typical whinges of typical pakistanis, there is no evolutionary perspective, how the pakistan has developed into a `kill` society in the last fifty years. The nexus of honour killing, blasphemey laws, the non -arrests of people involved in sectarian killings, how all this form the part of a fog of intolerance enveloping the pak society. I was looking for the punch line, `` If the killers of Saima were arrested, that would be illegal, violation of the laws of pakistan``.

There are a lot of criticisms of pakistan, oh the country is corrupt, the politicians dont care blah blah, no efforts to pin point the root cause, no attempt to come up with a legislative frame work, no real desire to change anything, but rather an attempt to get something published, to see the name in print.

The articles are feel good escapades for the baba baba blacksheep brigade, not incisive commentries on the pak society, and a way forward.

regards and best wishes.

jay.

Banjaara:

I understand what you pointed out. It was hard for me to react that abruptly, but he deserved it. It`s not at all arrogance - bilkul naheen! He is irritating/teasing me jaan boojh kur. I have explained my point twice and he is not taking it seriously. What`s there to discuss? You are more than welcome to give him company on the current issue. I do not find the effort worth my time.

Best Wishes( Reciprocating! )

sigalph #136 ``Better still, sometimes read a poem or two that Ghalib composed when his `male child` Arif died in utter infancy.``

I assume if it had been a female child, the muse would not have hit Ghalib. Being south asian, females are either sex objects or else close relatives who are there to serve the Master of the House.

PS: These references to south asians are to bring chowk posters together in mutual loathing of themselves, rather than have them stay apart insulting one another`s country. hamidm should be pleased, wherever he is nowadays...

sigalph235 #136 ``I have seen and known too many frustrated couples who would have given anything they had for the blessing of a child.``

Being south asian, these frustrated couples would of course not dream of adopting an orphan and thereby solving their problem (and the orphan`s problem as well).

Zahra # 137

``We are not on the same page regarding the issue under discussion. Sorry, I do not intend to discuss this matter any further with you.``

Does it mean that you discuss only when the other

person agrees to your flow of thought? That is

some arrogance ma`am.

Best regards.

RanaRansher #131, ``kambakhtoN, apne Jihad meiN khud hi jal ja, tu aisaa diwaana ban jaa``

Wah wah. Irshad.

Man you guys are cultured.

JIHADIC BOUNTY,

The following is from india today. It talks of jihadic bounty. Is there such a concept.

Q: But militants have changed their strategy and are resorting increasingly to suicide attacks.

A: That doesn`t really worry us. Pakistan is brain-washing young minds and putting them on a high to act fidayeen (suicide attackers).

The jehadigroups are also getting the message that every third mercenary being pushed into Kashmir is not going back. If we are able to keep our kill rate high, the jehadi josh will soon start evaporating. This is a war of nerves. Already, the jehadis are feeling the heat and want to go back to collect their bounties.

Q

Zafar Al-Talib #139

Good to see you back! :)

You are right many Indians fail to put ourselves in Pakistanis` shoes. As an Israeli was quoted as saying, whatever happens, you can be sure its ALWAYS our fault. (HE maynot be far from the truth, but you get what I mean.. ).

Its hard to think of hugs and cousins when such observances are consistently mistaken as precursors to capitulation :(.

I`ll watch out for Pizza, thanks, the public broadcasting channels here might have picked it up...

re zahra 137

Actually I think we are on different worlds, not just different pages, about this.

hey mehdavi!

pillars of islam, add this to yr list:

1) slamming

2) jihad

3) fatwa

4) edict

poke poke, of all slamming and islam goes well together.

Jay #125

If u r serious about wanting to know wot i have written about the horrendous `honour` killings, please go to the following URLs on chowk:

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?zeejah_may2499

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?zeejah_jun0999

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?zeejah_aug2199

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?zeejah_nov2498

u will find other articles at:

http://www.zeejah.8m.com/wi.htm

Reply Stuka, Sadna

Helloji, helloji, how are you both? I had a week off and barely made it without losing my mind because, of course, this meant that I didn’t log on to chowk, so could not keep up with latest barbs and gossip. (No I DON’T have a life, ok).

To my AMAZEMENT, when I returned I found people being unpleasant to each other, invective taking the place of intellectual discourse, and a general viciousness permeating the air.

“Can this be chowk?” I asked myself, lifting a restorative glass of nimbu pani to my parched lips in a trembling hand.

Haha! Ok, enough of the joke. Of course it’s good to be back – I have to behave in the real world….

More seriously, I get the feeling that many of us Indian interactors are failing to put ourselves in our “cousins” shoes. If there were demonstrations across India, a major upheaval in the making and no clear outcome in sight which sat well with how we have been brought up to see ourselves, I think we’d be pretty touchy too.

So – on a totally unrelated aside – have either of you seen a sit com called “Pizza”? It’s Australian, and tries to do for immigrant Australia what “Absolutely Fabulous” did for hawhaw England. (Familiar with that show?) Anyway, I can’t recommend it highly enough – please watch it so you can know and love us more.

My favourite is a supporting actor who is an Indian owner of a (what else) convenience store (shades of the Simpsons, but actually done cleverly). Best scene so far: he breaks up a fight between two people in his shop and then, AT GUNPOINT, makes them shake hands and hug! (Imagine your Chachi telling you off when you were five or six and you will get the tone. “Shake hands. Shake haaaaaaaaaands! Ok, now hug him. HUG HIM!”)

Watch it if you can. Be well,

Zafar:

Shah 126,

STATISTCS OF HOMOUR

That is interesting statistics from you, 100 honour killings in pakistan, Saima killing is an exageration.

How many trees are cut down in pakistan, how many holes are dug in the ground in pakistan. No, there is no statistics, it is irrelevant, it is legal to cut trees and dig holes. No statistics are kept, so is the case with honour killing. Only the exceptional gets reported.

You go and cut a tree infront of mushy house, it becomes a news, honour kill in the office of asma jahangir, it becomes exagerated news.

Pathetic attempt to produce statistics. In india bride buring is reported and statccs collected, because it is a crime. can you say that with honour killing in pakistan, it is a routine job for a honourable pakistani. Are you a man of honour, that is the only relevant question.

Sigalph:

We are not on the same page regarding the issue under discussion. Sorry, I do not intend to discuss this matter any further with you.

Polite Wishes.

re RanaRansher #132

The picture in the link below complements your poetry.

http://members.aol.com/mcmelectronics/freep/pepsi.jpg

re zahra

``I expected a better understanding from a person of your caliber. ``

My understanding is limited by my principles-I am a libertarian. Even if the China case is made in semi-humor, I find China`s (and earlier India`s) policies to control family size and gender to be patently immoral and in contravention of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. From there to state-supported and state-mandated abortion is but a small step. Your call for women who cannot do such and such not to `bear a male child` is rather chilling. Something similar, if not same, was called for by an ancient Egyptian ruler a few thousand years ago.

A child, male or female, is a gift of God. I have seen and known too many frustrated couples who would have given anything they had for the blessing of a child. Look them in the eye and tell them that they should avoid having a boy.

Better still, sometimes read a poem or two that Ghalib composed when his `male child` Arif died in utter infancy.

Ever since the world turned its attention on Islamic terrorism, all that the Muslim world has offered is myriad interpretations of Jihad. Nobody has cried unequivocally that Jihad is outdated, voilent and barbaric, much less declaring it totally inhuman and against basic tenets that govern humanity. With every passing day the world gets few more quotations and few more interpretations of a supposedly ``hallowed``

tradition. When a principle has been moulded to such a form that its original intention itself is suject to debate, then it`s time to relgate such a principle to obscurity. Jihad is the bloody sword of Islam (whatever its origin) and unless

it is realised that it has outlived its utility(if any) like many other medieval traditons, it will keep confronting the rest of the world. And the mullahs will continue to hold sway over the masses with the fear that Islam is in danger or that the world is out to get them.

Pullu

``Beauty in the shadow of violence`` - By Holland Cotter, Art/Architecture Section, 10/07/2001 Sunday Section.

I am just posting the ending very well written passage. The rest of the article can be read on the website.


``If you look, you can find the seeds of zealotry in Islamic art just as surely as you can in Christian art: in exclusionary emblems, in flashes of messianic fervor, in an insistent control of objects and images that can be used in many ways. What you will also find, though, are the tools of transformation: generosity, patience, intellectual alertness, a thirst for balance and a trust in the fragile beneficence of beauty that is both actively utopian and utterly reality-based, as the experience of art should be.``

kambakhtoN

apne Jihad meiN khud hi jal ja
tu aisaa diwaana ban jaa

Stuka #129

hear, hear!

Sigalph:

I expected a better understanding from a person of your caliber. By promoting a ban on the male babies, I am not bashing men. I am trying to point out the pathetic upbringing they receive from the women. In short, women should realize their role: producing a child is very different from raising one. Our country should put a ban(like China did)on those families who are unaware of the role they play in their kid`s life. Ok, now, China did not put a ban for that reason, but there was a ban to control the population. I wanted to use China`s example to appreciate the step of implementing a ``ban.``

I am not sure if you have read the poem on: if a child learns x, he becomes y. There are about 10 or 15 characteristics that were identified. It`s a very sweet poem; and I have seen it at my aunt`s house, when I was a teen-ager. I used to find that very appealing. My aunt was a widow with three sons; and when I look back, I do realize the efforts and sacrifices that must have gone into, raising the three accomplished sons.

Lastly, I will sum it up: If the women, do not realize, the role, they play, in the upbringing, of their male-offsprings, then they should not bear a male child.

There will be an addendum to this post. And I expect you to come up with a few questions.

-later

Zafar:

Where were you boss? I have been missing your presence on Chowk. Vacation? You have been given the responsibility (unasked ) of reining in the said cyber warriors, so please grace us with your presence and shame us with your rectitude and calm demeanour.

Zahra,

Thanks! Unfortunately I`m a bit far off. It looks like a very interesting agenda, do pl. attend if you can and tell us about it.

What is there to be scared of, though? I would myself be cautious in taking what they say at face value for two reasons. Firstly, they may have a slightly different perspective from ordinary people because they may have their own ideological blinkers on. Secondly they may tend to sensationalize things a bit because it happens to be their ``bread and butter``.

But, without knowing anything specifically int his regard about these organisations and individuals listed, I think its great that there are such organisations which are active in these fields. I`m sure there will be some useful stuff like facts collated, or information from their field work and experience and scholarly insights.

Reply Tahmed # 35

``What is the foundation of Islam??``

Um...Minister Sahib....could it be submission to God, aka peace?

Looking forward to your correction

Zafar

PS Did I miss it, or has your question elicted fewer responses than it should have from our cyberwarriors?

zahra,

You are the first pakistani from the very first days of chowk to say categorically that honour killing is evil. Many do not realise the importance of traeting the weaker members of society, women and children fairly. When taliban came to power and killed the shias and appropriated their wives, the world did nothing, when they banned the women from education and started killing them, it was declared question of sheria law interpretations. When a society collectively, through the institutions start attacking the minorities and the weaker members, you know for sure