Declaration of Jehad

Thank you Zahra #96 and MFarooqui #99. I`ll read the suggested books.

sac#85: How about Islamic olympics in Afghanistan? The opening ceremony was marred by conflict due to cloudy sky and difficulty in sighting the moon around Kabul. Half the mullahs boycotted and fatwaed the day to be 30th of the previous months and not the begining of the new month. Pakhtuns claimed it to be the new month and Tajik regarded it the 30th of the previous. All the Tajik and about half the athletes were disqualified for appearing 24 hour late for every event. Nobody won the women swimming events because all athelets were drowned due to heavy burqa which strangled their feet movement. The clock for women 100 meter free style is still ticking even after 15 days with obviously no winner crossing the line. All the marathon runners disappeared and reappeared in Pakistani refugee camps. Islamic Pentathalon required praying five times a day and all the wahabi and deobandi athletes lost it badly due to the choice of long surats in each rakat whereas barelvis read the same surat ahad in each rakat.

During the closing ceremony, all participants prayed for clear sky for the next Islamic olympic to be held in the rainy tropics, Jakarta, so that no discrepency can happen with the date of opening ceremony.

How dare silvio Berlusconi claims western civilization to be better. stupid west believing in static calendar whereas we have dynamic lunar-hense dynamic civilization? West static bathroom places, Afghanistan dynamic-open air/ anywhere.

tahmed and anNy,

The great peace lover of the chowk missed the alphabet keys. The youg turk from pakistan, could find only spelling errors. Cheer up, truth can be depressing, accepting it will make you free, even free from the bookish dogmas.

regards

jay

Zahra,

Zahra, thanks for the long post. Let me once again explain this to you. What you have writen is your view of islam, and unfortunately, you could not have spent much time instudying it. Yours is a `secular` view of a book, a secular reading of it.

The maulana Osama, left behind a fortune to study islam and lead a group who likes his interpetation. Zahra, not a single other muslim cares about you view of the book, you have no followers.

Now you want me to accept that yours is the `correct` others by the maulanas are wrong.

As far as I know, no maulana has condemned the towe attack, it has largely been by the muslim politicians, scholars and other individuals like you.

If you care can you give me areference to a criticsm of the attack by a maulana from pakistan.

zahra, it is sad to see, hopefully young person like you take leave of reason so easily. You say the attack was political. The man involved in the indian ailines hijacking, also a key person in the tower attack, linked by a political campaign, give a reason a break.

Zahra, just give it a possibility, it is unlikely that jihad interpretation of so many maulanas could be wrong, and only yours, zeejhas, and tahmeds are correct.

As hamidm would say, there are times to learn from other religions, may be even from the horrible hindus, say that jihad is irrelevant and move on, like how hindus say about caste. But please dont say it, life is more precious than contradicting a book.

regards and best wishes for a long life, shortened not by honour, not by fatwa.

jay

anNy to tahmed sahab:

``Chowk is becoming a depressing and moronic place to visit nowaday``(tahmed)

i agree tahmedsahab.(anNy)

Dear anNy sahiba and tahmed sahab:

Please don`t leave the chowk to wolves.

Yours are voices of moderation and sanity. Please stay and continue to argue -- and once a while don`t forget to just get real mad - that`s all --but do stay.

btw where are hamidm and ylh these days -- i hope they haven`t left.

good to read your posts.

curtyboy #95 (also jay #83 - jay, I would be very interested to know if you manage to read the books I am recommending here): curtyboy, be very sure that the Sept. 11 event is NOT what Islam teaches. What those individuals did is absolutely and completely against the teachings of Islam. What needs to be clarified and emphasized is that these acts had a political motivation, with Islam used in a horribly distorted form for no Islamic purpose. The Quran is the only sacred book that Muslims go by. I am not sure, but your confusion may be regarding the ``Sharia`` and the ``Hadith``. These are two traditions in Islamic thought: the ‘intellectual’ tradition and the ‘jurist’ tradition. The representatives of the ‘intellectual’ tradition ask the ‘why’ of things, and not simply the ‘how’. This is the ‘Hadith’. The representatives of the ‘jurist’ tradition tell the people ‘what’ they must do and not ask ‘why’. This is the ‘Sharia’.

``Jihad`` simply means ``struggle``. This could be a struggle against injustice, against tyranny, or what the Quran considers the biggest jihad of all: the struggle against one`s own ego. Killing innocent people is not only NOT jihad, it is against Islam.

I think the attempts by so many people to try to understand Islam and Muslims is an incredibly positive step. Islam remains an unknown religion to the vast majority of non-muslims (and some muslims as well!) which is further exacerbated by past media portrayals. The questions you have asked about are probably not the only ones you have. I`d like to borrow the suggestion of wadera (I think, in another post) and ask you to spend just a little time with a couple of remarkable books: Karen Armstrong`s ``A History of God`` and ``Mohammed``. You will have a tough time putting these books down once you start. Karen Armstrong was a nun for 7 years in the church in Britain and is now a professor of theology. She has written with a deep understanding of the subject and you will find what you need here. I`d suggest these before you read anything else. But chowk is always available for discourse anytime.

Please pardon any ignorance on my part, I have have learned quite a bit so far this evening. I am still learning.

Karakoram #92
Thanks, I appreciate your answer.
``Do groups of bodyguards of feudals, tribals in NWFP that carry weapons and profess a group mentality, terrorists, & freedom fighters (Pakistan has both on every side, if you know what I mean), all constitute private armies by your definition ?``
Yes, I guess they do. Are these armed groups legal?

I guess why I was wondering was why the Pakistani constitution and its limits on activities of individuals and groups are not being mentioned when discussing the theory of jihad. I might be mistaken but one would think that when discussing the basis for armed activism, not breaking the law of the land and remaining within the scope of activities sanctioned by the Pakistani Constitution would be the most relevant aspect of the question for Pakistanis.

Post 95:

``Do any people have the right to call Muslims to fight a religious holy war?``

Nope. But there are lunatics in all religions, belief systems and cultures - so you cannot point out any one group. No one has the right to call anyone to jump into a religious war. That`s insane and nonsense! Religion, as I understand, is to provide one, with a set of rules and guidelines, for one`s peace of mind than toppling everything in one`s life. And, Islam has a lot of emphasis on peace - internal as well as external. The foundation is based on submission that will result in peace. Certain rituals are performed for the cleansing, nourishment, and life of one`s soul. Why? To acquire peace of mind and heart, and to have an understanding of the concepts of nature.

``Does it say in any Islamic text that a believer can put aside all values associated with Islam to wage a war and die and attain paradise in the afterlife?``

Nope.

PS: Rest of your questions are fair and valid as well. The 1st two questions require some research and I would rather have someone else(except sac) address them or come back to them later.

Hope that gives a picture!

Please help me. I am an American who admits my ethnocentrism. Life as one born in the U.S. is my paradigm. But my mind is open.

I`ve read the Qur`an. It is infused with a beautiful, spiritual reverence. In the first few chapters Muhammad goes to great length to establish a special bond between Jews, Christians and Muslims. I like the idea that we are all pilgrims here on earth. Maybe because I don`t read Arabic, I find it difficult to understand at times.

My brother told me about another set of writings that some or all Muslims also take as holy scripture, it that true? So my questions are...

Is there somewhere else where there might be another definition of Jihad?

Do any people have the right to call Muslims to fight a religious holy war?

Does it say in any Islamic text that a believer can put aside all values associated with Islam to wage a war and die and attain paradise in the afterlife?

The attacks on September 11 revealed the flaws of Islamic religion (or at least the western world`s perception of Islam, or Osama`s and the Taliban`s version of Islam). And that is a shame because I so admire the rituals and clean lives of Muslims. I so admire their warmth and passion for life. I so admire the architecture and art of Islam. As a little boy in Beirut, I learned to trust the average Arab in the street (strangers would watch over me while my mom would shop - my mom said there was one man who used to take me as soon as we would get to the market...and he got a big laugh out of telling everyone that I, a blonde and blue-eyed two year old, was his son). This was happening while the Isrealis and the PLO were fighting a war.

These September 11 attacks are a bit like having a friend tell you the best ways of things...and then commits suicide while killing a bunch of your family. I hope this is the work of a bunch of psychopaths and not the way of the Islamic people - that would be as sad as anything so far.

I ask these things and put out these words to you with respect.

unkal jay unkal jay...this entire hijacking goof up seems to have excited you terribly..there are way too many typos in that last post..its alright..really..everyone makes a booboo..we, your next door neighbours make them all too often, no?...please be careful..cant afford to have your blood pressure shoot up..theek sae khana khao aap aur khush rahnae kee koshish karro...its alright..i promise

tahmed sahab:

``Chowk is becoming a depressing and moronic place to visit nowaday``

i agree tahmedsahab. instead of looking forward to logging on as i have uptil now, i do so half heartedly these days...chowk is not so much fun aajkal with people saying all these things to each other (me too many times) and especially with people attacking my country, my religion left right and centre. i log off feeling strangely sad everytime.

maybe i need a break :)? i think im going to go now and come back after a week or two :0)

love,

anNy

p.s: temporal is on a honeymoon cum vacation cum anniversary trip- should be back in a day or two

Sadna:

``Third attempt:

Are private armies constitutional in Pakistan?``

Since its your third attempt, I think you deserve some answer. I don`t know, but I don`t think they should be.

Do groups of bodyguards of feudals, tribals in NWFP that carry weapons and profess a group mentality, terrorists, & freedom fighters (Pakistan has both on every side, if you know what I mean), all constitute private armies by your definition ?

Sac:

Something else for you to look into, if and only if, you have NOT already come across the following.


Kind Regards!


Fwd: An Email from a mailing list:

Please wear a scarf on the 8th!


``Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful
committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it`s the only thing that ever has.`` Margaret Mead

It`s simple to do. Women, regardless of their faith, across the United States will wear a scarf or hat covering their hair on October 8, 2001. Like friends who shave their heads in solidarity with cancer patients, women everywhere will wear the hijab.

To protect Muslim women who have been afraid to leave their houses because of ignorant hatred, we will dress piously. The hijab (scarf) is worn outwardly to show the inner hijab of compassion, honesty and love, which is carried in the hearts and souls of Islamic men and women alike. Make flyers, call your politicians, or simply cover your hair for a day. It`s simple. Show the world we are truly ONE NATION!


Questions, contact: jennifer at
interfaithpeace@yahoo.com or debmarst@aol.com
Participants are asked to keep a journal of their day, thoughts, feelings, experiences, and send it to interfaithpeace@yahoo.com

More information about the Scarves for Solidarity
Campaign (feel free to pass this on as well)

The purpose of the Scarves for Solidarity Campaign is simply to show our support of our Muslim sisters, and to foster discussion with the people you come into contact with during your everyday lives, who obviously know that you are not Muslim....it is not meant to be a political symbol in any way, just a symbol of love, to show the world that America has not forgotten what it was founded on, ``happiness, liberty and justice for ALL`` and that we truly are ``One Nation Under GOD`` the same God that we all worship in different ways.

Although there is a National Scarves for Solidarity Day planned for October 8th, the true beauty of this effort is that it is a woman`s personal choice as to the level of her participation, some women are wearing scarves every day until the end of October, some are just wearing it on October 8th, some are wearing it
one day a week for an couple of months. I would like to request that anyone who participates keeps a journal describing their thoughts, feelings, experiences, etc. The journal can be sent to interfaithpeace@yahoo.com. I hope to have the website http://www.interfaithpeace.org online by the end of this week. I am also putting together some of the responses of thanks I have received from the Muslim Community, they are so touching and poignant, especially for such a small, small thing. If you would like, I will send it to you as well. I will warn you to expect controversy, much of it stemming from misunderstanding, and also concern over offending the Muslim community, I would like to say that I have yet to receive one negative response from a Muslim..and Muslim women who do not wear scarves are equally as thankful as those who do. I would also like to ask you to please be careful if you do choose to participate, while I have not encountered any harassment while wearing the scarf, the possibility is real and present.

I have also designed a graphic that you can use if and however you would like, it can be found at
http://www.hazara.net/forum/articles/symbol/symbol.html you can email me for an actual file copy of this or print it directly from the web. I apologize for not being able to include all religions, I wanted to keep it simple, and these three seem to have the most problems ``getting along`` if you will.

Jayaprakash:

``The only clear signs of hatred i can see on chowk are the articles trying to accomodate jihad. The dastardly tradition of the earlier times is to be dismissed as irrelevant, but the educated men and women of pakistan have come out from the cesspolls to defend, to reinterpret and to situate the vengeful tradition of the nomads.``

The above is a fair question. I hate to intervene but I need to. My apologies to Zeejah!

Jayaprakash: I did not say your views in the above passage were fair views. I said your question was a fair one. Please make a note of it. You have to understand what I am about to write by imagining yourself on the other side of the table.

It`s not about being defensive; it`s about being straightforward and thorough! It`s about explaining the concept. Well, why? Why not just condemn it to the best of your abilities - like you`ve suggested? Or curse it and etc.? Now, here are a few thoughts...If you believe in a religion, then you know the ins-and-outs of it pretty well or it`s incumbent upon you to have an understanding of the basics. Unfortunately, if you do not explain certain concepts(like jehad or other significant ones) and take a plea that oh, it does not exist in Islam at all, then you are denying the existance of jehad in the religion. Now, that will be a lie. Jehad had/has an existance and a lot of people who have come out with their perspectives like Shahgul, URS[the three types of Jehad. I have not read the rest of his arguments so I cannot agree/disagree with them], and Zeejah, are doing a favor(or I should say educating) by providing the nuances or intricacies of the concept than leaving it in limbo for further misunderstandings.

On another note, the explanation serves the purpose of exposing the liars and the munhoos elements who have taken a refuge under the garb of religion to fulfill their sick motives. So, the dissection of the term, Jehad, ended up serving many purposes: clarification of the term, exposing the ruthless act of the terrorists as their own mental disorder and not some kind of religious fervor, and enlightening the readers.

These were very simple points. And even as I was penning the above points, I did realize that it`s not going to be easy to digest this concept with an open mind. Due to the current topsy-turvy situation, it will be pretty damn hard for anyone to start focusing on the intricacies of Jehad. The natural tendency will be to condemn it!

We all have very different perceptions and insights. In fact, some have nothing in them when it comes to insights, but they are blessed with other attributes. Based on the differences in our composition and perceptions, what is good for me may not hold the same value for you and vice versa. So, our understanding of Jehad will never be the same. Let`s put it this way. In that case, it will be necessary for me or you to learn about the details of Jehad in order to be on the same page - provided we have the time. Now, if you do know something you are justified in your condemnation; but if you don`t know, then you do have to educate yourself before you go for any kind of condemnation.

Lastly, I think Zeejah has previously written on the concept of Honor Killing. So, your criticism on her choice of subject was pretty silly!

PS: There can be a few loopholes in my above arguments as I switch back and forth. If you catch them well and good! If you don`t that`s fine too :)

Third attempt:
Are private armies constitutional in Pakistan?