Afghanistan Reflections
Ras Siddiqui October 8, 2001
#155 Posted by fuzair on October 20, 2001 1:39:12 pm
Asif Nawaz, so I`ve heard from reliable sources, was one of the last of the pukka saabs in the Army (and I mean this as a compliment). I don`t know about the Anglicized Urdu part of it but I do know that when he lost his temper he would revert to Punjabi and you would be lucky to get out in one piece. All the generals of his generation had an official darbar/bara-khana speaking style (copied from their British Indian Army superiors) which was actually quite stilted and artificial but seemed to work well with the jawans. Perhaps that is what you heard.
Certainly his integrity was unimpeachable: I know for a fact that Nawaz Sharif`s father offered him a substantial bribe, done discreetly of course, and Asif Nawaz told him in no uncertain terms what would happen to him if he ever tried anything of this sort again.
PM is personally a very decent man (which is an extremely rare commodity in Pakistan at or near his exalted level), as is Jahangir Karamat and Waheed Kakar. The absolute worst things I`ve heard about PM are that he never bothers to think an idea through from start to finish (i.e., if it looks good in the first draft, lets go with it) and that he lacks the mental perseverance to see things through to the bitter end if the initial obstacles prove to be tougher than expected. I certainly do hope that he has decided to see this particular crisis through to the end!
Romair:
The VCOAS and DCOAS positions were never formally abolished. It was just that no one was appointed to them after Aslam Beg became chief. The CGS simply acted as the de facto DCOAS. While Usmani was theoretically in the running for VCOAS, the odds were against him since he wasn`t considered good enough (for whatever reason) to be given the job the first time around. In military parlance, while he was not exactly passed over, his promotion was under review and not just deferred, i.e., possible but not probable.
I don`t mean to imply that the Army leadership is generally stupid. I`ve met many stupider people in the Civil Service (where seniority will get you promoted) at the joint/deputy secretary level than I`ve met stupid brigadiers and major generals (the ``stupidest`` of whom have better professional qualifications than most of the time servers who become joint and deputy secretaries). All I meant was that most of the corp commanders and army chiefs are not people whom I would think ranked in the top 5-10% of their PMA course in the IQ department. I certainly agree with you that an IQ in the 90+ percentile range is NOT a prerequisite for a good general or a good chief but they do need to be, if not high average, above average!
Incidentally, Brian Cloughley thinks quite highly of PM and he wrote this well before PM became COAS!
Certainly his integrity was unimpeachable: I know for a fact that Nawaz Sharif`s father offered him a substantial bribe, done discreetly of course, and Asif Nawaz told him in no uncertain terms what would happen to him if he ever tried anything of this sort again.
PM is personally a very decent man (which is an extremely rare commodity in Pakistan at or near his exalted level), as is Jahangir Karamat and Waheed Kakar. The absolute worst things I`ve heard about PM are that he never bothers to think an idea through from start to finish (i.e., if it looks good in the first draft, lets go with it) and that he lacks the mental perseverance to see things through to the bitter end if the initial obstacles prove to be tougher than expected. I certainly do hope that he has decided to see this particular crisis through to the end!
Romair:
The VCOAS and DCOAS positions were never formally abolished. It was just that no one was appointed to them after Aslam Beg became chief. The CGS simply acted as the de facto DCOAS. While Usmani was theoretically in the running for VCOAS, the odds were against him since he wasn`t considered good enough (for whatever reason) to be given the job the first time around. In military parlance, while he was not exactly passed over, his promotion was under review and not just deferred, i.e., possible but not probable.
I don`t mean to imply that the Army leadership is generally stupid. I`ve met many stupider people in the Civil Service (where seniority will get you promoted) at the joint/deputy secretary level than I`ve met stupid brigadiers and major generals (the ``stupidest`` of whom have better professional qualifications than most of the time servers who become joint and deputy secretaries). All I meant was that most of the corp commanders and army chiefs are not people whom I would think ranked in the top 5-10% of their PMA course in the IQ department. I certainly agree with you that an IQ in the 90+ percentile range is NOT a prerequisite for a good general or a good chief but they do need to be, if not high average, above average!
Incidentally, Brian Cloughley thinks quite highly of PM and he wrote this well before PM became COAS!
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#154 Posted by rsaxena on October 20, 2001 1:30:48 pm
Re: bong-dongs
``Actually the place I work does a lot of work in S. America (Venezuela, Colombia, Brazil mainly). The joke is that no batchelor engineer who was sent down there has ever come back without someone in tow :-)``
True `dat. We have a Partner at the firm whose story is exactly that. From IIT geek shy of speaking to girls to a hottie in Ecuador who he would later marry after finishing business school in the US.
``Actually the place I work does a lot of work in S. America (Venezuela, Colombia, Brazil mainly). The joke is that no batchelor engineer who was sent down there has ever come back without someone in tow :-)``
True `dat. We have a Partner at the firm whose story is exactly that. From IIT geek shy of speaking to girls to a hottie in Ecuador who he would later marry after finishing business school in the US.
#153 Posted by tahmed321 on October 20, 2001 11:11:57 am
Romair #357 ``he spoke Urdu with a very British accent, i.e. `Tum aatah haaaay, hum jaatah haaaay.` Maybe I just caught him on a bad day``
You caught him on a bad day (and I hope it wasnt because he thought you only understood broken urdu): I too chatted with Asif Nawaz once in real life, and recall him to be a regular chap who talked like a regular Pakistani (no British accents or pretensions, and plenty of natural dignity).
You caught him on a bad day (and I hope it wasnt because he thought you only understood broken urdu): I too chatted with Asif Nawaz once in real life, and recall him to be a regular chap who talked like a regular Pakistani (no British accents or pretensions, and plenty of natural dignity).
#152 Posted by anNy on October 20, 2001 11:11:57 am
Fuzair:
``PM, I`ve heard, has no lack of physical courage but is no Jahangir Karamat in the IQ department and that he tends to get discouraged and give up if the objective is not carried in the first assault.``
An uncle who knows him on a personal and professional level says he is a fine man BUT that his thought process is not very structured (whatever the hell that means) Another family friend in the top heirarchy of the ISI says he`s got what it takes to get us out of a great many messes if he wants to. He emphasized on the IF in a very ominious way.
I hope he does :)
``PM, I`ve heard, has no lack of physical courage but is no Jahangir Karamat in the IQ department and that he tends to get discouraged and give up if the objective is not carried in the first assault.``
An uncle who knows him on a personal and professional level says he is a fine man BUT that his thought process is not very structured (whatever the hell that means) Another family friend in the top heirarchy of the ISI says he`s got what it takes to get us out of a great many messes if he wants to. He emphasized on the IF in a very ominious way.
I hope he does :)
#151 Posted by Romair on October 20, 2001 4:28:26 am
Fuzair #145: Thanks for the info.
I always thought, that unlike the PAF, the Army did not have an official VCOAS position. I thought it was done away with after Zia. Usmani was promoted to DCOAS, which would have made him the second senior most after Musharraf(?). Wouldn`t that mean, he would have been in line for VCOAS?
I had a friend who worked directly for General Karamat, before he became the COAS. His comments were, ``General Karamat writes really well.`` He kept repeating this. So I guess Karamat is a good writer. He was on the US think tank/lecture circuit for a while, after retiring as COAS.
I actually met Gen. Asif Nawaz. Interesting guy. He is from the suburbs of Jehlum area. And is a Sandhurst graduate. Rumor was that he had an extremely good looking daughter. Don`t know if that is true. The interesting part was he spoke Urdu with a very British accent, i.e. ``Tum aatah haaaay, hum jaatah haaaay.`` Maybe I just caught him on a bad day, but it seemed like I was talking to one of those actors in Indian movies who portray British officers.
There was another General in the PAF I met. His whole family spoke English 24 hours a day. It was actually quite funny how all these old timers tried to act more British than the British. Musharraf falls into that same group. Some of them like Javed Nasir, Hamid Gul, Aslam Baig and M.M. Alam, somewhere towards the end of their careers, jump over to the other side. I don`t know why. I have been told that Javed Nasir was a notorious party animal in his younger Army days.
Many, ``intellectual`` Pakistani civlians tend to underestimate the capabilities of the officers who make it to the top of the Army. it is quite hard to make it up that far. Of all the Pakistanis who have been my colleagues in the military (PAF, Navy, Army) and in Silicon Valley and Lahore, the two most talented I have met are in the Army. One has a Ph.D. and teaches in one of the Army universities. Their management, people and intellectual skills are superior to those of even the successful Pakistani entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley, who are my friends. Unfortunately now, most of these guys leave the military the first chance they get, to join the Civil Services or to go abroad. However, during the good old days of Asif Nawaz etc., they used to stay in the military.
So the corps commanders, et al, aren`t as stupid as one might think. It`s just that they are too sure of themselves, and have little exposure to the world outside the military. The later two factors limits their skills to run a country. Musharraf seems to be an exception to the rule.
I always thought, that unlike the PAF, the Army did not have an official VCOAS position. I thought it was done away with after Zia. Usmani was promoted to DCOAS, which would have made him the second senior most after Musharraf(?). Wouldn`t that mean, he would have been in line for VCOAS?
I had a friend who worked directly for General Karamat, before he became the COAS. His comments were, ``General Karamat writes really well.`` He kept repeating this. So I guess Karamat is a good writer. He was on the US think tank/lecture circuit for a while, after retiring as COAS.
I actually met Gen. Asif Nawaz. Interesting guy. He is from the suburbs of Jehlum area. And is a Sandhurst graduate. Rumor was that he had an extremely good looking daughter. Don`t know if that is true. The interesting part was he spoke Urdu with a very British accent, i.e. ``Tum aatah haaaay, hum jaatah haaaay.`` Maybe I just caught him on a bad day, but it seemed like I was talking to one of those actors in Indian movies who portray British officers.
There was another General in the PAF I met. His whole family spoke English 24 hours a day. It was actually quite funny how all these old timers tried to act more British than the British. Musharraf falls into that same group. Some of them like Javed Nasir, Hamid Gul, Aslam Baig and M.M. Alam, somewhere towards the end of their careers, jump over to the other side. I don`t know why. I have been told that Javed Nasir was a notorious party animal in his younger Army days.
Many, ``intellectual`` Pakistani civlians tend to underestimate the capabilities of the officers who make it to the top of the Army. it is quite hard to make it up that far. Of all the Pakistanis who have been my colleagues in the military (PAF, Navy, Army) and in Silicon Valley and Lahore, the two most talented I have met are in the Army. One has a Ph.D. and teaches in one of the Army universities. Their management, people and intellectual skills are superior to those of even the successful Pakistani entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley, who are my friends. Unfortunately now, most of these guys leave the military the first chance they get, to join the Civil Services or to go abroad. However, during the good old days of Asif Nawaz etc., they used to stay in the military.
So the corps commanders, et al, aren`t as stupid as one might think. It`s just that they are too sure of themselves, and have little exposure to the world outside the military. The later two factors limits their skills to run a country. Musharraf seems to be an exception to the rule.
#150 Posted by tahmed321 on October 20, 2001 4:28:26 am
Fuzair #154 The question of the IQ reminds me what I heard many years ago from a army psychologist at ISSB (InterServices Selection Board, for those who dont know): ``We are not interested in the thinking types joining the army - we need these people to kill, not to philosophize why they are to kill`` (``assaN banday marwanay naiN - os astay sochan alay di lor naiN.``).
Character is probably more important. I think you will agree that the past four COAS`s (counting PM) all displayed admirable character (including refusing to be bribed by Nawaz Sharif into converting the army into Nawaz Sharif`s personal force). And actually they were pretty smart chaps too (you need that to have character).
Character is probably more important. I think you will agree that the past four COAS`s (counting PM) all displayed admirable character (including refusing to be bribed by Nawaz Sharif into converting the army into Nawaz Sharif`s personal force). And actually they were pretty smart chaps too (you need that to have character).
#149 Posted by bong_dongs on October 19, 2001 6:56:21 pm
``Forget the neighbor`s wife, I suggest a trip to Caracas``
Actually the place I work does a lot of work in S. America (Venezuela, Colombia, Brazil mainly). The joke is that no batchelor engineer who was sent down there has ever come back without someone in tow :-)
Actually the place I work does a lot of work in S. America (Venezuela, Colombia, Brazil mainly). The joke is that no batchelor engineer who was sent down there has ever come back without someone in tow :-)
#148 Posted by fuzair on October 19, 2001 5:36:32 pm
Re: Tahmad`s post on COAS
After Aslam Beg (Muhajir) the Chiefs were Asif Nawaz Janjua (Punjabi), Abdul Waheed Kakar (Pathan, though not from NWFP), Jahangir Karamat (Punjabi) and finally Pervez Musharraf (Muhajir). Of these last four, Karamat is the only one known for his intellectual ability: I`ve heard him described as being a better professor than a General and also criticized for being prone to over analyze any issue/problem (analysis paralysis?). Kakar was a considered a complete nonentity in the Army (having neither a dominant intellect nor personality) but he surprised everybody by removing both Nawaz Sharif and Ghulam Ishaq Khan, so still waters run deep, I guess. Asif Nawaz wasn`t known for his swift intellect either BUT he was known for being able to make tough decisions quickly and not flinch in carrying them out. PM, I`ve heard, has no lack of physical courage but is no Jahangir Karamat in the IQ department and that he tends to get discouraged and give up if the objective is not carried in the first assault. Who knows if any of this is true but this is the scuttlebutt in the Army.
Regards.
PS: I included the ethnicity of the last few Chiefs as a counter to the usual propaganda that the Pakistan Army is a Punjabi Army.
After Aslam Beg (Muhajir) the Chiefs were Asif Nawaz Janjua (Punjabi), Abdul Waheed Kakar (Pathan, though not from NWFP), Jahangir Karamat (Punjabi) and finally Pervez Musharraf (Muhajir). Of these last four, Karamat is the only one known for his intellectual ability: I`ve heard him described as being a better professor than a General and also criticized for being prone to over analyze any issue/problem (analysis paralysis?). Kakar was a considered a complete nonentity in the Army (having neither a dominant intellect nor personality) but he surprised everybody by removing both Nawaz Sharif and Ghulam Ishaq Khan, so still waters run deep, I guess. Asif Nawaz wasn`t known for his swift intellect either BUT he was known for being able to make tough decisions quickly and not flinch in carrying them out. PM, I`ve heard, has no lack of physical courage but is no Jahangir Karamat in the IQ department and that he tends to get discouraged and give up if the objective is not carried in the first assault. Who knows if any of this is true but this is the scuttlebutt in the Army.
Regards.
PS: I included the ethnicity of the last few Chiefs as a counter to the usual propaganda that the Pakistan Army is a Punjabi Army.
#147 Posted by rsaxena on October 19, 2001 3:29:37 pm
Re: bong-dongs & dost-mittar
``A nice chat with her in which you try to discuss something of more significance than the next sale at Macy`s would have helped you control your libido :-)``
Forget the neighbor`s wife, I suggest a trip to Caracas. Learn a bit of Spanish and you might pass as Raul Julio Rodriguez. And if you`re married and can`t pull something like that off, my sympathies...
``A nice chat with her in which you try to discuss something of more significance than the next sale at Macy`s would have helped you control your libido :-)``
Forget the neighbor`s wife, I suggest a trip to Caracas. Learn a bit of Spanish and you might pass as Raul Julio Rodriguez. And if you`re married and can`t pull something like that off, my sympathies...
#146 Posted by bong_dongs on October 19, 2001 12:01:52 pm
``I had once a neighbour with a Venezuelan wife, put the Biblical commandment to challenge!!``
A nice chat with her in which you try to discuss something of more significance than the next sale at Macy`s would have helped you control your libido :-)
A nice chat with her in which you try to discuss something of more significance than the next sale at Macy`s would have helped you control your libido :-)
#145 Posted by anNy on October 19, 2001 12:01:52 pm
yesyes scout...but i like mine lean and mean...lots of bharam..abhor shiny bumpy muscles...byukh..
tellme...ever had a halfpunjabihalfkashmiri? im not one for `this caste has this trait` `this race this feature` but maaaan these guys are delicious...rugged and jhanglee yet very very gentlemen like...also mohajirs...very classy..bohat scrumptous
:P
tellme...ever had a halfpunjabihalfkashmiri? im not one for `this caste has this trait` `this race this feature` but maaaan these guys are delicious...rugged and jhanglee yet very very gentlemen like...also mohajirs...very classy..bohat scrumptous
:P
#144 Posted by tahmed321 on October 19, 2001 10:39:11 am
Fuzair #145 Thanks for an informative post. So, in the line of succession we now have this Gen. Yusuf. In fact, after Zia disintegrated and after his useless successor Aslam Baig bumbled out of the army, the army has in fact had a string of four first rate individuals as COAS starting with Asif Nawaz, than Kakur, then ?? (his name slips my mind), and now PM. (I think I got that right in terms of the succession of COAS`s, but correct me if I am wrong).
#142 Posted by Lajwanti on October 19, 2001 10:39:11 am
Nuggets from the Urdu press
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Nasibo Lal in trouble
According to Khabrain, folk singer Nasibo Lal, while singing at Gujranwala Arts Council, allowed fuhush (obscene) dancers like Alisha, Khushboo and Lashana, to perform lasciviously in front of a local audience. People responded with great enthusiasm although the event was against the rules of decency. They repeatedly performed bhangra while ignoring ideology of Pakistan.
Milosevic and Osama
Historian of Afghan jehad Raja Anwar, writing in Khabrain, said that if Milosevic could be brought under trial in an international court why couldn`t Pakistan or any other state ensure that Osama bin Laden is brought before an impartial court? He could be punished only if found guilty. Raja Anwar wrote that Afghanistan had given nothing to Pakistan but kalashnikov culture and was not willing to make any concession, not even on the Durand Line.
Mufti Shamzai`s fatwa
According to Nawa-e-Waqt, Mufti Shamzai of Karachi`s Banuri Mosque issued the fatwa that when the Americans land in Pakistan his followers should immediately take over the country`s airports. Fifty thousand followers did bayat-e-jehad (pledge of war) on his hand. He said anyone fighting on the side of Christians against Islam would go to hell.
Sharif brothers part ways
According to daily Din, Nawaz Sharif and Shehbaz Sharif fell apart in their hideaway in Saudi Arabia and that Shehbaz Sharif had bought a residence of his own separately from the family still led by Abbaji. The paper opined that since Shehbaz had decided to part ways with the family he may lose Saudi financial help.
Pakistan`s paradox
Renowned columnist Nazeer Naji wrote in Jang that Pakistan had a strange history of upheavals. Bhutto, a liberal, chose a fundamentalist officer General Zia for promotion to army chief, who overthrew him and converted Pakistan into a fundamentalist state. Bhutto was a secularist but spent more time banning alcohol in Pakistan and apostatising the Ahmedis to please the mullahs. The initial paradox was that Jinnah was a secular leader who was opposed by the mullahs, but later Pakistan was to be moulded in the vision of not Jinnah but mullahs. Then General Zia chose Nawaz Sharif as his heir but in 1997 he was elected for his economic policies; instead he chose to enforce shariat after coming to power. But for a man devoted to shariat he chose General Musharraf, a non-Islamist, to head the army. General Musharraf who toured the cantonments to defend Nawaz Sharif for sacking an earlier chief, was later to remove Nawaz Sharif. And an Islamist army was now ready to get rid of the jehadi mullahs and rid the state of fundamentalism. Nawaz Sharif was opposing his anti-Taliban policy from Saudi Arabia although his brother chief minister Punjab Shehbaz Sharif had clearly said during his tenure that the Taliban were training the terrorists targeting Pakistani leaders.
What will Pakistan give?
Famous columnist Irshad Haqqani wrote in Jang that Pakistan and the US had discussed the matter of Pakistan`s offering landing facilities during the invasion of Afghanistan but there was no discussion on territorial rights. But General Hameed Gul, through a letter, said that he had trimmed his anti-Musharraf position when assured by him that neither land nor landing facilities would be granted to the American troops.
US to take intelligence help
Famous columnist Hussain Haqqani wrote in Jang that during the Afghan war the Americans used Pakistani intelligence to fight the Soviet Union but this cooperation was not really beneficial; but this time, he hoped, it would be more fruitful. This was a crucial point of time in the Pak-US relations.
Osama wanted me killed!
Leader of the PPP Ms Benazir Bhutto said in daily Din that Osama bin Laden paid Nawaz Sharif of the PML ten million dollars to topple her from government through the device of a no confidence vote. She said that Osama also planned to get her killed, but his plans failed twice.
Present land holding against Islam
According to daily Din, Council of Islamic Ideology came to the conclusion that the present land holdings in Pakistan were against Islam and must be undone because the child born in the house of a feudal lived in luxury while the one born in the house of a poor man was deprived. In the past, land reforms were undone by the Federal Shariat Court on the question of annexation of land without payment of market price.
Beaten up for singing `mahiya`
According to daily Pakistan a police officer ASI Shameem Gondal of Malka Hans had the habit of following a lady school teacher singing the mahiya songs of Mansoor Malangi loudly to seduce her into thinking of love. But the school teacher suddenly took off her burqa and started beating him up with her shoe. Other school girls accompanying her joined in and also beat him up with their shoes. After the beating it was discovered that one tooth of the thanedar ASI was broken but he was allowed to go only after he swore on a copy of the Quran and made the school teacher his sister.
It is not aunt`s home!
According to Nawa-e-Waqt, ex-ISI chief General Hameed Gul said that after the Taliban shot down two unmanned spy planes of the United States, the Americans were bound to run away from the battle field. He said all would soon be well because defeating the Taliban was not khala ji ka ghar (easy as being in one`s aunt`s home).
Zia wanted Afghanistan
Quoting a journalist once close to General Zia, Maqbul Sharif, daily Pakistan wrote that General Zia did not want the Russians to leave Pakistan at the end of the Afghan war. He wanted the question of a new government in Kabul resolved before their exit. In fact he wanted to send Pakistani troops to Kabul in the same manner that India had sent its troops to East Pakistan.
Jehadi organisations are fake
Quoted in Jang, ex-ISI chief General Javed Ashraf Qazi said that 90 percent of the organisations engaged in jehad in Kashmir were fake. Hew said leaders like Maulana Fazlur Rehman and Maulana Samiul Haq were interested only in amassing funds and advancing their political ends. If they were sent to Afghanistan to fight they would jump out of the bus and run away. He said in the past the Taliban were warned many times that because of them Pakistan was being labelled a terrorist state but they did not listen.
Israel did it!
Talking to daily Pakistan, Sipah Sahaba chief Maulana Azam Tariq said that those who attacked New York and Washington should be sought in Israel and India because Osama bin Laden was blameless. He said if Afghanistan was attacked he would issue fatwa for the murder of Americans and Israelis. He said America wanted to attack Pakistan`s nuclear installations while pretending to attack Afghanistan. He added that there would be civil war in Pakistan if Islamabad continued to support the Americans.
Hekmatyar will join Taliban!
Editor Ausaf Hamid Mir wrote that if Pakistan were to sever relations with the Taliban in the wake of similar action by the UAE and Saudi Arabia, it will force two offended Afghan leaders, Hekmatyar and Sayyaf, to join the Taliban and make an anti-Pakistan alliance. This new alliance will stop the advance of the Northern Alliance but Pakistan would be forever deprived of the friendship of its precious Afghan brethren.
Allah will answer Mulla Umar`s call!
According to Khabrain Mulla Umar of Afghanistan had prayed to Allah for special intervention against the American attack, as a result of which Allah had sent down a storm off the coast of Karachi as a sign. Before this, Salahuddin Ayubi had also prayed like Mulla Umar and his prayer was heard and a Christians army was caused to be gharq (sunk) by Allah.
A Lahori heir to Afghan throne speaks out!
According to daily Din, Ashraf Durrani of Lahore was discovered to be in the line of descent of Ahmad Shah Abdali Durrani who established the first Afghan empire. Ashraf Durrani formally laid claim to the throne of Afghanistan and stated that the Afghan people were not satisfied with the government of the Taliban. He also laid claim to the diamonds presently owned by the Queen of England and said that the diamond had belonged to his ancestor Shah Shuja.
Allama Iqbal`s joy
Famous historian Dr Safdar Mehmood wrote in Nawa-e-Waqt that Allama Iqbal would have been overjoyed to see that the civilisation of the West was no longer obsessed by women but by a bearded man called Osama bin Laden.
Ms Mazari is anti-America
According to Ausaf, former chairman of the state-run Institute of Strategic Studies in Islamabad, Mr Niaz A. Naik, wrote to the Foreign Office saying that the present chairman of the institute, Dr Shireen Mazari, was anti-American and was harming the interests of Pakistan by writing against the United States. The paper said that upon an inquiry made by the Foreign Office, ex-foreign minister Agha Shahi stated that she had criticised the United States while defending the interests of Pakistan.
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Nasibo Lal in trouble
According to Khabrain, folk singer Nasibo Lal, while singing at Gujranwala Arts Council, allowed fuhush (obscene) dancers like Alisha, Khushboo and Lashana, to perform lasciviously in front of a local audience. People responded with great enthusiasm although the event was against the rules of decency. They repeatedly performed bhangra while ignoring ideology of Pakistan.
Milosevic and Osama
Historian of Afghan jehad Raja Anwar, writing in Khabrain, said that if Milosevic could be brought under trial in an international court why couldn`t Pakistan or any other state ensure that Osama bin Laden is brought before an impartial court? He could be punished only if found guilty. Raja Anwar wrote that Afghanistan had given nothing to Pakistan but kalashnikov culture and was not willing to make any concession, not even on the Durand Line.
Mufti Shamzai`s fatwa
According to Nawa-e-Waqt, Mufti Shamzai of Karachi`s Banuri Mosque issued the fatwa that when the Americans land in Pakistan his followers should immediately take over the country`s airports. Fifty thousand followers did bayat-e-jehad (pledge of war) on his hand. He said anyone fighting on the side of Christians against Islam would go to hell.
Sharif brothers part ways
According to daily Din, Nawaz Sharif and Shehbaz Sharif fell apart in their hideaway in Saudi Arabia and that Shehbaz Sharif had bought a residence of his own separately from the family still led by Abbaji. The paper opined that since Shehbaz had decided to part ways with the family he may lose Saudi financial help.
Pakistan`s paradox
Renowned columnist Nazeer Naji wrote in Jang that Pakistan had a strange history of upheavals. Bhutto, a liberal, chose a fundamentalist officer General Zia for promotion to army chief, who overthrew him and converted Pakistan into a fundamentalist state. Bhutto was a secularist but spent more time banning alcohol in Pakistan and apostatising the Ahmedis to please the mullahs. The initial paradox was that Jinnah was a secular leader who was opposed by the mullahs, but later Pakistan was to be moulded in the vision of not Jinnah but mullahs. Then General Zia chose Nawaz Sharif as his heir but in 1997 he was elected for his economic policies; instead he chose to enforce shariat after coming to power. But for a man devoted to shariat he chose General Musharraf, a non-Islamist, to head the army. General Musharraf who toured the cantonments to defend Nawaz Sharif for sacking an earlier chief, was later to remove Nawaz Sharif. And an Islamist army was now ready to get rid of the jehadi mullahs and rid the state of fundamentalism. Nawaz Sharif was opposing his anti-Taliban policy from Saudi Arabia although his brother chief minister Punjab Shehbaz Sharif had clearly said during his tenure that the Taliban were training the terrorists targeting Pakistani leaders.
What will Pakistan give?
Famous columnist Irshad Haqqani wrote in Jang that Pakistan and the US had discussed the matter of Pakistan`s offering landing facilities during the invasion of Afghanistan but there was no discussion on territorial rights. But General Hameed Gul, through a letter, said that he had trimmed his anti-Musharraf position when assured by him that neither land nor landing facilities would be granted to the American troops.
US to take intelligence help
Famous columnist Hussain Haqqani wrote in Jang that during the Afghan war the Americans used Pakistani intelligence to fight the Soviet Union but this cooperation was not really beneficial; but this time, he hoped, it would be more fruitful. This was a crucial point of time in the Pak-US relations.
Osama wanted me killed!
Leader of the PPP Ms Benazir Bhutto said in daily Din that Osama bin Laden paid Nawaz Sharif of the PML ten million dollars to topple her from government through the device of a no confidence vote. She said that Osama also planned to get her killed, but his plans failed twice.
Present land holding against Islam
According to daily Din, Council of Islamic Ideology came to the conclusion that the present land holdings in Pakistan were against Islam and must be undone because the child born in the house of a feudal lived in luxury while the one born in the house of a poor man was deprived. In the past, land reforms were undone by the Federal Shariat Court on the question of annexation of land without payment of market price.
Beaten up for singing `mahiya`
According to daily Pakistan a police officer ASI Shameem Gondal of Malka Hans had the habit of following a lady school teacher singing the mahiya songs of Mansoor Malangi loudly to seduce her into thinking of love. But the school teacher suddenly took off her burqa and started beating him up with her shoe. Other school girls accompanying her joined in and also beat him up with their shoes. After the beating it was discovered that one tooth of the thanedar ASI was broken but he was allowed to go only after he swore on a copy of the Quran and made the school teacher his sister.
It is not aunt`s home!
According to Nawa-e-Waqt, ex-ISI chief General Hameed Gul said that after the Taliban shot down two unmanned spy planes of the United States, the Americans were bound to run away from the battle field. He said all would soon be well because defeating the Taliban was not khala ji ka ghar (easy as being in one`s aunt`s home).
Zia wanted Afghanistan
Quoting a journalist once close to General Zia, Maqbul Sharif, daily Pakistan wrote that General Zia did not want the Russians to leave Pakistan at the end of the Afghan war. He wanted the question of a new government in Kabul resolved before their exit. In fact he wanted to send Pakistani troops to Kabul in the same manner that India had sent its troops to East Pakistan.
Jehadi organisations are fake
Quoted in Jang, ex-ISI chief General Javed Ashraf Qazi said that 90 percent of the organisations engaged in jehad in Kashmir were fake. Hew said leaders like Maulana Fazlur Rehman and Maulana Samiul Haq were interested only in amassing funds and advancing their political ends. If they were sent to Afghanistan to fight they would jump out of the bus and run away. He said in the past the Taliban were warned many times that because of them Pakistan was being labelled a terrorist state but they did not listen.
Israel did it!
Talking to daily Pakistan, Sipah Sahaba chief Maulana Azam Tariq said that those who attacked New York and Washington should be sought in Israel and India because Osama bin Laden was blameless. He said if Afghanistan was attacked he would issue fatwa for the murder of Americans and Israelis. He said America wanted to attack Pakistan`s nuclear installations while pretending to attack Afghanistan. He added that there would be civil war in Pakistan if Islamabad continued to support the Americans.
Hekmatyar will join Taliban!
Editor Ausaf Hamid Mir wrote that if Pakistan were to sever relations with the Taliban in the wake of similar action by the UAE and Saudi Arabia, it will force two offended Afghan leaders, Hekmatyar and Sayyaf, to join the Taliban and make an anti-Pakistan alliance. This new alliance will stop the advance of the Northern Alliance but Pakistan would be forever deprived of the friendship of its precious Afghan brethren.
Allah will answer Mulla Umar`s call!
According to Khabrain Mulla Umar of Afghanistan had prayed to Allah for special intervention against the American attack, as a result of which Allah had sent down a storm off the coast of Karachi as a sign. Before this, Salahuddin Ayubi had also prayed like Mulla Umar and his prayer was heard and a Christians army was caused to be gharq (sunk) by Allah.
A Lahori heir to Afghan throne speaks out!
According to daily Din, Ashraf Durrani of Lahore was discovered to be in the line of descent of Ahmad Shah Abdali Durrani who established the first Afghan empire. Ashraf Durrani formally laid claim to the throne of Afghanistan and stated that the Afghan people were not satisfied with the government of the Taliban. He also laid claim to the diamonds presently owned by the Queen of England and said that the diamond had belonged to his ancestor Shah Shuja.
Allama Iqbal`s joy
Famous historian Dr Safdar Mehmood wrote in Nawa-e-Waqt that Allama Iqbal would have been overjoyed to see that the civilisation of the West was no longer obsessed by women but by a bearded man called Osama bin Laden.
Ms Mazari is anti-America
According to Ausaf, former chairman of the state-run Institute of Strategic Studies in Islamabad, Mr Niaz A. Naik, wrote to the Foreign Office saying that the present chairman of the institute, Dr Shireen Mazari, was anti-American and was harming the interests of Pakistan by writing against the United States. The paper said that upon an inquiry made by the Foreign Office, ex-foreign minister Agha Shahi stated that she had criticised the United States while defending the interests of Pakistan.
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#141 Posted by SameerJB on October 19, 2001 10:39:11 am
dost-mittar: How come so many Punjabis ended up in Mumbai? Movie Industry? By the way Hydrerabadi Hashmi is Tabbu and instead of proud Rajput, I meant really honorary Rajput.
Yes Punjabans are bulkier than rest at all the right and sometime wrong places. But their loose dressing up, unlike sari-clad women, they successfully hide the fatty acids. Most Punjabi women shed lots of weight beyond 40s and 50 years of age.
Yes Punjabans are bulkier than rest at all the right and sometime wrong places. But their loose dressing up, unlike sari-clad women, they successfully hide the fatty acids. Most Punjabi women shed lots of weight beyond 40s and 50 years of age.
#139 Posted by fuzair on October 19, 2001 7:50:15 am
Re: Romair #122
Actually, Gen. Usmani`s departure was a foregone conclusion. The Army hierarchy goes like this:
COAS (General)
Vice-COAS (also General)
Deputy-COAS (Lt. Gen.)
In the absence of an officer specifically posted as VCOAS/DCOAS, the CGS is the de facto acting DCOAS. The VCOAS and DCOAS posts were both created by Gen. Zia to take some of the workload off him and were both unfilled since Aslam Baig became Chief since the Chiefs after him had no job other than his military one.
When Usmani was posted to GHQ, quite a few people expected that he would be promoted to General and made VCOAS. When he was neither promoted nor appointed VCOAS, it became clear that either there was some sort of an internal tussle as to who was to become number 2 and/or that PM wasn`t sure who he wanted as his number two and was basically clearing the decks for a reshuffle in the slightly more junior positions.
So Usmani`s departure was not a big change in so far as he was simply marking time in his new posting until PM decided how the Army high command was to be handled. However, the timing of the departure may have had something to do with the current crisis and the American`s insistence that some housecleaning be done.
Gen. Yusuf, who is not Punjabi but a Ranghar although the Ranghars are now de facto Punjabis so the distinction is moot anyway I suppose, is Musharraf`s clear heir apparent for the time being. In case anything happens to Musharraf, the VCOAS will automatically become Chief since there is no President or PM to sack him and appoint someone else. Or at least thats how it worked for Aslam Baig.
Regards.
Actually, Gen. Usmani`s departure was a foregone conclusion. The Army hierarchy goes like this:
COAS (General)
Vice-COAS (also General)
Deputy-COAS (Lt. Gen.)
In the absence of an officer specifically posted as VCOAS/DCOAS, the CGS is the de facto acting DCOAS. The VCOAS and DCOAS posts were both created by Gen. Zia to take some of the workload off him and were both unfilled since Aslam Baig became Chief since the Chiefs after him had no job other than his military one.
When Usmani was posted to GHQ, quite a few people expected that he would be promoted to General and made VCOAS. When he was neither promoted nor appointed VCOAS, it became clear that either there was some sort of an internal tussle as to who was to become number 2 and/or that PM wasn`t sure who he wanted as his number two and was basically clearing the decks for a reshuffle in the slightly more junior positions.
So Usmani`s departure was not a big change in so far as he was simply marking time in his new posting until PM decided how the Army high command was to be handled. However, the timing of the departure may have had something to do with the current crisis and the American`s insistence that some housecleaning be done.
Gen. Yusuf, who is not Punjabi but a Ranghar although the Ranghars are now de facto Punjabis so the distinction is moot anyway I suppose, is Musharraf`s clear heir apparent for the time being. In case anything happens to Musharraf, the VCOAS will automatically become Chief since there is no President or PM to sack him and appoint someone else. Or at least thats how it worked for Aslam Baig.
Regards.
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