Afghanistan Reflections

Shammi

I had the leadership of the founder of Pakistan in mind.

Also the story about Gen Mahmoud and Omar Sheik - the story was picked up from Press Trust of India, therefore, I`ll reserve judgement on it`s veracity, till I see it confirmed by FBI or a legitimate US paper.

re Field Marshal(Hon.) ROmair`s babblings:

If you had an iota of self-respect you`d keep away from Chowk for a couple of months. Wasn`t there a 1000 word scholarly treatise from you(and some of your sypathisers) disputing my contention about the Islamic tendencies of the Army generals? The sidelining of the Islamist generals is the most important news coming out of Pakistan in the present imbroglio. The diehards won`t fade away into the night though. This is just the beginning.

later

-sac

P.S: Fuzair you mentioned ballroom dancing. You forgot to mention how the red light area was patronised by the officer corps since they couldn`t get dates even for official functions ;)

Could those people raise hand who were actively soliciting the idea that Paksitan will benefit economically out of this debacle? Are they still here? Excuse my uncouth eyesight but I dont see dollars running towards Paksitan. Debt is still there. Soon it will quadruple when Generals will start taking lions` share. Hello, any one out there? Or are you just too happy to see the murder of the innocent, the people you love to hate? Is that good enough for ya? anyone?

Banjaara

``You are either a dreamer or simply stupid``.

I plead guilty to both. Keep your faith, the underlying reasons for the lack of unity and hostility is differing visions based on what they have been exposed to.

Ras sahab says:

``But before all that happens, those responsible for the mass murder of September 11th need to face justice. ``

And who will be made responsible to throw Taliban type ppl on Afghanistan and kiling thousands of ppl? Pakistani general is still saying that Pushtoons r 60% of Afghanis. So his dream of imposing pathans on Afghans (as punjabis r on Pakistanis) is still continuing.

And this is not just todays`s policy. Ever since the soviet invasion, American arsenals r channeled to just pathans groups of ISI/CIA liking. In this endeavour, relations with Iran worsened. And in order to prepare more muscles, all sorts of religious schools cropped up in cities like Karachi. The ppl studying there have nothing to do with Karachi, but they r tehre to kill shias, courtesy Pakistani army and its intelligence agencies.

Stuka #21: The US will have difficulty in its anti-terrorism campaign because of certain self-contradictions. If we take the criteria of a terrorist to be someone who targets civilians, then the US has been the biggest terrorist of the 90s. This fact pinches pro-US groups, but it is a fact. The biggest terrorist of the 80s was the Soviet Union.

According to UNESCO, 300,000 innocent civilians have died in Iraq due to US actions. According to the Ramsey report, the figure is even higher.

``The annual number of deaths of children under age five grew more than tenfold from 1989 to 1999. Total deaths of children under age five from these selected causes alone during 1990 to November 1999 is 502,492.`` (Ramsey Clark, ex-Attorney General of USA, http://www.iacenter.org/rc12600.htm)

USSR killed over 1 million people in Afghanistan alone in the 80s. It used exploding toys, dropped from aircraft, to kill young Afghani kids. So by all definitions of terrorism, the US and USSR have been the two biggest terrorist nations. No if ands and buts about it. In human history, the superpowers of the time are always the biggest killers of innocent civilians, because they have to do so to maintain their superpower status.

This of course, does not justify the killings of WTC. However, it does put things into perspective, and points out some of the reasons behind the motiviations of the Arab terrorists. Until the US clears these contradictions, it will not be successful in its anti-terrorism campaigns. Bombing places is just going to intensify this campaign.

Due to this, the US needs to tread carefully. If it bombs any country outside Afghanistan, things will get out of control. Unfortunately, the people in the US state dept. are so naive when it comes to the rest of the world that they start believing their own media.

I am not quite sure how the US is going to handle Egypt and Saudi Arabia. It obviously cannot get rid of the govts., since they are strong US allies. At the same time, it cannot bomb those two countries. Assuming that they are the two headquarters of terrorism, bombing Iraq or Afghanistan isn`t going to solve the long term problem.

If I were the US, I would do the following:

- Move troops out of Saudia Arabia, and let the events take there own course there. It is quite possible the Royal family will get overthrown. However, if it does, and their are American troops there at the time, the US will get the blame.

- Stop bombing Iraq, and lift the sanctions against them. These are the two biggest acts of terrorism currently being carried out in the world. How can the US expect anyone in the Middle East to listen to it on terrorism, when it is itself killing 5,000 babies a month in Iraq (Please read UN figures if you don`t believe me).

- Get the Ariel Sharons of the world to accept the peace agreements that were agreed to in Oslo, etc. These people keep replacing the soft-line Israeli leaderships, whenever peace gets close.

- Let democracy take its course in places like Egypt and Algeria. If Islamic govts. come into power (which they will in Algeria), work with them. They will only be hostile to the US, if the US attempts to stop democracy in their countries.

- Establish close contacts with Iran. It is the only genuine democracy in the religious Muslim world. It is also non-Arab. I think Iran and Pakistan are two good potential long-term allies for the US.

- Support Pakistan in the long term. It is still one of the most pro-US countries in the Muslim world.

Once the US does all of the above, not too many people are going to complain if it attempts to carry out its, ``crusades`` against the terrorists. However, until that time, there will be too many contradictions in the US stance, to be able to successfully carry out its counter-terrorism campaigns. It is just going to produce more terrorists.

Urstruly (34):

Forget the economy for now... I`m just glad some Talibs are getting a well deserved thrashing.. and that Pakistan has officially drawn the line on Islamic extremism and their supporters... Lets see how things progress.. theres alot more to happen in the coming days.

Romair

You’re lack of clear thinking never ceases to amaze me, but I guess one shouldn’t be surprised when listening to a person from a place as contradictory as pakistan.

Saying that the sanctions against iraq caused the WTC attacks is precisely why muslims are viewed as terrorists.

Although I concede that they probably haven’t been as effective as one would have hoped and that the allies should have killed saddam hussein during the gulf war, the sanctions were designed to prevent a tyrannous dictator from being a threat to neighboring countries – a dictator who, I might add, has butchered millions of his own people – some with chemical weapons – doing far more damage then what sanctions have done.

That muslims could blame a free and democratic america for islam’s failure to create paradise on earth is evidence of a severe psychosis throughout the muslim world. double think and the constant victim mentality of people in the muslim world, as demonstrated in your posts, is precisely why islamic peoples across the globe are in generally a miserably state. Stand up and take responsibility for your actions!

Now the real question is whether musharref is prepared to acknowledge that the pakistan-sponsored terrorists in kashmir are one and the same with the taliban and al queda and that they too need to be wiped out. If they can’t admit it, I’m sure india will press the point.

Bin Laden invokes ghosts of history

From L K Sharma

DH News Service

Washington, Oct 9

The most wanted man on the earth has done a fresh vanishing trick! He disappeared from the consciousness of the most powerful man in the world. Osama bin Laden did it with the same ease with which he had earlier entrenched himself into it.

President George Bush, who used to talk about this evil man ``wanted dead or alive``, has suddenly forgotten about the personification of the enemy. Now it is Osama, the unspeakable. This new development provoked questions and the White House spokesman had to explain that the war is not about Osama bin Laden.

The explanation made sense because on the same day, the US told the UN that it could attack countries other than Afghanistan. Mr Bush has done the right thing banishing Osama bin Laden from his chilling rhetoric. It takes care of all possible eventualities including new war goals. If bin Laden is killed or captured, will that be defined as ``success`` in the minds of Americans? And just in case he eludes the mightiest military machine, will it not be a great PR disaster, especially since Afghanistan has no other high-value assets to be demolished?

Osama bin Laden decided to retaliate for his exclusion by landing on the American small screen, addressing the nation, with a visible microphone in hand. No high technology there. A cave seemed to be the board room of what was officially described here as the holding company of Terrorism International. The backdrop was a rocky surface which could be real, unless, of course, some world-class designer had done it as a suitable prop when Osama was fighting another set of infidels, followers of the ``Godless`` communism.

After the terrorists struck America, experts pointed out that they had no specific demands and thus the attack was simply on all freedom-loving people. Bin Laden may have heard this on CNN. In his words directed against America, he came out with reasons for his war. He personified the enemy as the ``head of international infidels`` and raised the issues of injustice to Palestine, the dead and dying children of Iraq and the presence of the US troops in Saudi Arabia.

But more than that, he made a fleeting reference to forgotten history, not going back to the days of the Christian Crusades but to a much later event in the history of British imperialism. He said what America was tasting now is what Islamic nation has been tasting for more than 80 years. He also said ``the sword fell upon America after 80 years``.

What happened some 80 years ago? Bin Laden may have been referring to the division of the Arab provinces of the Ottoman Empire between the British and the French after World War I. In the British Library, they are said to be reading the text of the Sykes-Picot Agreement and also the Treaty of Sevres of 1920 which marked the end of the political order dominated by the Sultanate and Caliphate.

There was another historical reference in Bin Laden`s videotaped address to America. ``Let the whole world know that we shall never accept that the tragedy of Andalusia is repeated in Palestine``. This refers to the conquering of the Muslim Kingdom of Granada by Spain`s Catholic monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella.

All this shall remain in the realm of speculation till bin Laden explains it to Christiana Amanpour of CNN. George may pick Tony`s brains. The British have a better knowledge of all this and of the Middle East, once an area of influence of the Lawrence of Arabia.

The thick plottens.

Alliance staffer who took hijack call dead



TIMES NEWS NETWORK



EW DELHI: The Alliance Air employee who took an anonymous call which claimed a Mumbai-Delhi flight had been hijacked, died at his residence early Tuesday morning. Mohammed Shahnawaz Wani, 24, is suspected to have suffered a heart attack.

Wani, who had joined Alliance Air only in February this year, had been questioned by the police and other security agencies soon after the hijack drama ended on Thursday morning. Wani was the supervisor on duty at the airlines’ operations department when the call was received by him at 11.22 pm on October 3. He had passed on the information to his seniors, who finally got it relayed to the pilot of flight CD 7444, triggering a night-long drama.

Wani, besides working for the airlines, also held a pilot’s licence. To get such a licence, an absence of a history of heart ailment is mandatory, besides other requirements.

Wani’s death fuelled instant speculation on whether it had anything to do with ‘‘pressure’’ from security agencies soon after the call turned out to be a hoax. The police were quick to dismiss these speculations saying they had recorded Wani’s statement on October 6, and had asked him basic questions. ‘‘The only thing we were interested in was if he could recall any other detail which could help us to identify the caller,’’ a senior police officer said.

KAFERIAN LOGIC,

Till recently, the kafirs were worried about aircraft being hijacked. The detection devices focussed on the bomb, guns and big knives. Now it is a question of box cutters, scissors, and the attempt is to slam the aircraft to buildings. It is a new dimension, and the world is responding with bolted cockpits, sky marshals blah blah. In the earlier versions, the implicit value was that the hijackers really dont want to get killed. Now they are seeking death.

What the kafirs really need is to prepare for the next, and that is nuclear. The action required is obvious.

#: 39

kafir k khan

What the hell

Mamoo,Maa,Cousin,Mama,you talking about.

You are under delerium of Dhatura borrowed from your cousin MOMIN Rajput ,whose bastardized versions you are.

Or you had again Bhang Siddhi Charas & desi tharra that you are hallucinating garbage !!

Sac#30

Well, you can`t stop Romair to post his gem of posts in a democratic process. What you can do is to stop reading them, which I have done long time back once he posted his analysis on India-Pakistan defence needs. No wonder Pakistani Army is in such a dire need of change.

Just look for the scroll down bar.

The current passing over of two generals in the Pakistan military is quite interesting. Everyone has a theory. The obvious ones coming from India regarding connections with terrorism. Others coming from Pakistan`s local Chowk experts who achieved their expertise on the Pakistani military without having spent a day in it or having anything to do with it (these guys are amazing :-)). About as as unreasonable as people who yell and scream at the USA, without having spent a day in the US. One cannot debate with such people. One can only ignore them.

It goes directly in line with what I have been saying all along. People had suggested that Musharraf is in control of some sort of fanatics in the military. That he was in control of his corps commanders. I had always stated that it quite easy for the COAS to supersede and pass-over generals, who work for him. This is exactly what happened.

One only needs to look at the personalities of the Chiefs of the Army, Air Force and Navy to get an oreintation of the type of people who rise in the military. How exactly have people like Musharraf been able to make it to the top?

People somehow or the other tend to confuse military strategy with personal tendencies. This would make Alexander Haig and Ronald Reagan the biggest Mujahideen since they were the strongest supporters of the Afghan Mujahideen. Bush Sr. actually supported Saddam Hussain and Osama. It is always interesting when people start equating Pakistanis with Talibans, just because Pakistan has supported Talibans. There is a huge difference between supporting some policy strategically and being like someone.

Musharraf, in my opinion, is cleaning house on the people who support Pakistan`s old Taliban policy, and are unwilling to change. Out of a high command of around 12 Lt. Gens. this includes two or three Generals. This, of course, does not make these people themselves to be Taliban or fanatics (unless one considers Clinton a fanatic for supporting the Taliban initially also). The easiest way to do so is to supersede them. They, according to the Army tradition, automatically volunteer for retirement.

My guess is that Musharraf wanted to get rid of the CJCS responsiblity from his shoulders. So he had to pick someone. Since he could only pick one person, a few others would retire. He chose Gen. Aziz (the person who the Indian media has pointed to be an extremist, due to his Navy style beard; or because the Indian journalists know him personally :-); take your pick). This meant that Gen. Mahmood and Usmani retired. Pretty simple. I personally thought he would have picked Usmani, since they are the closest. And Aziz is considered more of a hardliner.

The only interesting part is the resignation of Mahmood (and the fact that Musharraf has replaced Muhajirs with non-Muhajirs; both Mahmood and Usmani are Muhajirs). My guess is that Mahmood was the sole voice who wasn`t on board completely with Musharraf (this, of course, makes the whole Army fanatics, in the eyes of some; in actuality it just means one person did not agree with supporting the US completely; as does Ayaz Amir). After all, it was Musharraf who appointed this guy.

Now only if the Pakistan`s political parties, beaurecracy etc. were able to make decisions based on merit and policy. One way to look at these changes is that somehow Musharraf has cleaned house of religious fanatics in the Army. Quite a ridiculous concept, since these people helped Musharraf in carrying out the coup, and were appointed by him in the first place. Did they become religious fanatics in one month? Religious fanatics rarely if ever make it past PMA; the few odd Generals who have become religious were more in line with JI, i.e. not fanatic. And they usually become so after becoming quite senior in the military; born again Muslims. The other is to realize that the military still is run by people like Musharraf, and consists of strong enough traditions where people can be superseded when not following policy. These people then resign (and don`t become OSDs) in line with tradition.

Take your pick. I personally don`t believe in conspiracy theories. But the genuises who claim expertise in Pakistan`s military, through third hand knowledge, will of course stick with the conspiracy theories. Primarily because that is the image that suits their interests. I feel sorry for such conspiracy theorists.

Why is it that people like Musharraf end up running the military, and not the religious fanatics, whom conspiracy theorists suggest are looming around freely in the Army. One would think at least two or three would have made it to COAS, in the Army, Navy or Air Force. The only one who made it was Zia, and he was a product of Bhutto, not a product of the military.

kafir khan #39 ``Taliban is baby of Pakistan. ``

You are genius my friend. How you find out this secret. I think only ISI know secret. And now you two and everyone on chowk three. Please, please dont tell RAW. OK.

Also: Does India have baby with beard? Hunh? India produce baby with no beard. Ha! Ha! Pakistan baby with beard!! Pakistan baby make India baby cry all over chowk. Ha! Ha!

Reply Karakoram # 38

``... I`m just glad some Talibs are getting a well deserved thrashing.. ``

heyyyyyyyyymaineaapkakyabigaaraajeeeeeee?