Afghanistan Reflections
Ras Siddiqui October 8, 2001
#49 Posted by manoj on October 10, 2001 10:34:58 am
a) If anyone thinks that democratic institutions can be established in Muslims lands , they are sadly mistaken. The thing which is needed most for democracy to flourish is tolerance. And indeed this is the thing that is absent in Islamic socities .( please dont quote what is written in Koran)
b) Attempts to establish some kind of democratic dispensation in Afganistan are also bound to fail.
c) Till there are petroleum reserves in the middle east, the regimes in Saudi Arabia etc will be propped by the Americans. The real downfall of Islamic nations will start when their oil reserves get depleted. The downfall of `Islamic rep. of Pukeistan` has however already started.
Where is the pop corn & soda?
b) Attempts to establish some kind of democratic dispensation in Afganistan are also bound to fail.
c) Till there are petroleum reserves in the middle east, the regimes in Saudi Arabia etc will be propped by the Americans. The real downfall of Islamic nations will start when their oil reserves get depleted. The downfall of `Islamic rep. of Pukeistan` has however already started.
Where is the pop corn & soda?
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#50 Posted by nameless on October 10, 2001 10:34:58 am
People your thoughts on this confession from Pakistan:
taken from Frontier Post:
http://www.frontierpost.com.pk/articles.asp?id=3&date1=10/10/2001
After Afghanistan, guess who is next?
Farhatullah Babar
Updated on 10/10/2001 11:19:50 AM
It is amazing how we seem to be quite oblivious of the looming dangers to Pakistan in the `Get Taliban and get Osama ` operation.
True, Pakistan had no choice but to reverse its decades old Afghan policy.
True also, that we had to be on the side of the international coalition in its war against terrorism.
But does it also assure us that the looming threat to our own security and integrity has been averted? Just on the second day of the strikes inside Afghanistan the US shot off two ominous warnings: The terror war will last for several years, and the strikes will go beyond Afghanistan.
The warnings have not been delivered in off-the-cuff remarks before reporters.
They have been formally conveyed in a letter sent to the United Nations.
Washington`s intention to strike the terrorists` hideouts beyond Afghanistan has been announced loud and clear.
Two sets of pictures published in the newspapers, one of fighter bombers raining fire on Afghanistan and the other of loaves of bread air-dropped, underlines a subtle message: we identify friends even if they are interspersed with the enemy.
Tomorrow, by the same token a search may be launched for foes among friends.
A great proof offered against Osama and Al-Qaeda and accepted by Pakistan and others is that once upon a time he publicly denounced Americans as the enemy of Palestinian and Arab Muslims and therefore liable to be killed.
With such evidence regarded as credible, it would not be hard to identify enemies of the United States allegedly sheltered among its friends.
In his interview with CNN last week, General Musharraf said that Harkat-ul-Mujahideen, whose accounts were frozen in the United States and Pakistan, had no offices in the country for it was operating inside Held Kashmir.
Next morning General Musharraf`s interview was juxtaposed in the newspapers with that of Harkat spokesman Amiruddin Mughal: ``Our offices are working as usual.
No one can close our offices because we are engaged in a just and legitimate struggle for the freedom of Kashmir from the Indian yoke.`` As if that was not enough, the Azad Kashmir Prime Minister Sardar Sikander Hayat said, ``The Harkat-ul-Mujahideen and other Kashmiri groups are doing jehad against Indian terrorism in Held Kashmir.
And to us not only those who are engaged in jehad but also those who help them are highly revered.`` On October 1, 29 people were killed when suicide bombers blew up a car outside the legislative assembly in Srinagar.
The Foreign Office did well to promptly condemn the attack as terrorism.
General Musharraf also rightly condemned it.
However, before the official condemnation, Maulana Masood Azhar of Jaish-i-Muhammad owned responsibility for the incident.
He even identified the suicide bomber.
Although later he denied having said this, the damage had been done.
Remember, Maulana Azhar Masood is one of the three persons whose release from an Indian jail was secured by the hijackers of an Indian plane hijacked to Kandahar in December 1999.
His utterances have been publicly denounced in the past by the Interior Minister Moinuddin Haider as most damaging to the interests of Pakistan.
When cruise missiles were fired at camps in Khost in Afghanistan in August 1998, six Pakistanis were also found among the dead.
When Bamiyan was captured, the United Nations reported that those taken prisoner also included some Pakistanis.
During the Kargil fight we claimed that the mujahideen sitting atop Kargil were not under our control.
But when the world pressured Islamabad, the same mujahideen descended from the mountains in no time.
In August 1999 a car bomb went off near the State Bank in Srinagar, killing 29 innocent people.
The Hizb publicly owned responsibility and warned of bigger strikes in the future.
Lashkar-e-Tayyaba even claimed that the car used in the operation had been arranged by it.
Drive down to Peshawar and you will notice billboards and wall chalking imploring the faithful to kill the leaders of infidels.
``Kufr key imamon ko qatal karo`` (kill the leaders of the infidels) exhort the wall chalkings, quoting what the Harkat claims is sanctioned by the Quran.
All these are ugly pictures, which we continue to ignore at our peril.
Most of our commentators are chanting hurrah.
They believe that the situation until recently, when India was wooed and Pakistan was treated as a pariah state by the US, had changed dramatically.
They see in it a great diplomatic triumph for Pakistan and contemptuously ridicule India`s bid to malign Pakistan and include `cross-border terrorism` also in the fight against terrorism.
We have led our people to believe that Islamabad has completely outwitted India.
This is most dangerous complacence.
Whether we like it not, there are dark signs on the horizon as the strikes are taken far beyond Afghanistan.
When the chips are down and the Taliban and Osama have been sorted out, somebody might dig out from the archives the State Department`s Patterns of Terrorism Report for the year 2000 citing Pakistan`s alleged support to the militants, their fund raising and recruiting new cadres in Pakistan and attacks on civilian targets.
It will be a poor consolation to be told then by the United States that Pakistanis are not our enemies as much as we are told today that the Afghans are not our enemies.
Are we prepared to face what President Bush promises to be a ``sustained, relentless and comprehensive`` war and warns of taking it beyond Afghanistan? I hope we are, but believe we are not.
taken from Frontier Post:
http://www.frontierpost.com.pk/articles.asp?id=3&date1=10/10/2001
After Afghanistan, guess who is next?
Farhatullah Babar
Updated on 10/10/2001 11:19:50 AM
It is amazing how we seem to be quite oblivious of the looming dangers to Pakistan in the `Get Taliban and get Osama ` operation.
True, Pakistan had no choice but to reverse its decades old Afghan policy.
True also, that we had to be on the side of the international coalition in its war against terrorism.
But does it also assure us that the looming threat to our own security and integrity has been averted? Just on the second day of the strikes inside Afghanistan the US shot off two ominous warnings: The terror war will last for several years, and the strikes will go beyond Afghanistan.
The warnings have not been delivered in off-the-cuff remarks before reporters.
They have been formally conveyed in a letter sent to the United Nations.
Washington`s intention to strike the terrorists` hideouts beyond Afghanistan has been announced loud and clear.
Two sets of pictures published in the newspapers, one of fighter bombers raining fire on Afghanistan and the other of loaves of bread air-dropped, underlines a subtle message: we identify friends even if they are interspersed with the enemy.
Tomorrow, by the same token a search may be launched for foes among friends.
A great proof offered against Osama and Al-Qaeda and accepted by Pakistan and others is that once upon a time he publicly denounced Americans as the enemy of Palestinian and Arab Muslims and therefore liable to be killed.
With such evidence regarded as credible, it would not be hard to identify enemies of the United States allegedly sheltered among its friends.
In his interview with CNN last week, General Musharraf said that Harkat-ul-Mujahideen, whose accounts were frozen in the United States and Pakistan, had no offices in the country for it was operating inside Held Kashmir.
Next morning General Musharraf`s interview was juxtaposed in the newspapers with that of Harkat spokesman Amiruddin Mughal: ``Our offices are working as usual.
No one can close our offices because we are engaged in a just and legitimate struggle for the freedom of Kashmir from the Indian yoke.`` As if that was not enough, the Azad Kashmir Prime Minister Sardar Sikander Hayat said, ``The Harkat-ul-Mujahideen and other Kashmiri groups are doing jehad against Indian terrorism in Held Kashmir.
And to us not only those who are engaged in jehad but also those who help them are highly revered.`` On October 1, 29 people were killed when suicide bombers blew up a car outside the legislative assembly in Srinagar.
The Foreign Office did well to promptly condemn the attack as terrorism.
General Musharraf also rightly condemned it.
However, before the official condemnation, Maulana Masood Azhar of Jaish-i-Muhammad owned responsibility for the incident.
He even identified the suicide bomber.
Although later he denied having said this, the damage had been done.
Remember, Maulana Azhar Masood is one of the three persons whose release from an Indian jail was secured by the hijackers of an Indian plane hijacked to Kandahar in December 1999.
His utterances have been publicly denounced in the past by the Interior Minister Moinuddin Haider as most damaging to the interests of Pakistan.
When cruise missiles were fired at camps in Khost in Afghanistan in August 1998, six Pakistanis were also found among the dead.
When Bamiyan was captured, the United Nations reported that those taken prisoner also included some Pakistanis.
During the Kargil fight we claimed that the mujahideen sitting atop Kargil were not under our control.
But when the world pressured Islamabad, the same mujahideen descended from the mountains in no time.
In August 1999 a car bomb went off near the State Bank in Srinagar, killing 29 innocent people.
The Hizb publicly owned responsibility and warned of bigger strikes in the future.
Lashkar-e-Tayyaba even claimed that the car used in the operation had been arranged by it.
Drive down to Peshawar and you will notice billboards and wall chalking imploring the faithful to kill the leaders of infidels.
``Kufr key imamon ko qatal karo`` (kill the leaders of the infidels) exhort the wall chalkings, quoting what the Harkat claims is sanctioned by the Quran.
All these are ugly pictures, which we continue to ignore at our peril.
Most of our commentators are chanting hurrah.
They believe that the situation until recently, when India was wooed and Pakistan was treated as a pariah state by the US, had changed dramatically.
They see in it a great diplomatic triumph for Pakistan and contemptuously ridicule India`s bid to malign Pakistan and include `cross-border terrorism` also in the fight against terrorism.
We have led our people to believe that Islamabad has completely outwitted India.
This is most dangerous complacence.
Whether we like it not, there are dark signs on the horizon as the strikes are taken far beyond Afghanistan.
When the chips are down and the Taliban and Osama have been sorted out, somebody might dig out from the archives the State Department`s Patterns of Terrorism Report for the year 2000 citing Pakistan`s alleged support to the militants, their fund raising and recruiting new cadres in Pakistan and attacks on civilian targets.
It will be a poor consolation to be told then by the United States that Pakistanis are not our enemies as much as we are told today that the Afghans are not our enemies.
Are we prepared to face what President Bush promises to be a ``sustained, relentless and comprehensive`` war and warns of taking it beyond Afghanistan? I hope we are, but believe we are not.
#51 Posted by ali1 on October 10, 2001 10:34:58 am
RE # 44
Conspiracy theory
Contrary to public pronouncements, the US actually wants Pakistan to get destabalized so that it gets an excuse to attack and take out the nuclear capability.
One way of doing that would be to encourage an ambitious general (behind the scence of course) to stage a coup. Gen. Mehmood was stuck in the US after 9/11 and got the chance to interact with a large number of US officials and politicians. He was recruited by the Americans to stage the coup.
After the coup, US would have declared that Pakistan has been taken over by Islamist generals and attacked!!
Musharraf pre-empted by firing Mehmood.
Sounds good??
Conspiracy theory
Contrary to public pronouncements, the US actually wants Pakistan to get destabalized so that it gets an excuse to attack and take out the nuclear capability.
One way of doing that would be to encourage an ambitious general (behind the scence of course) to stage a coup. Gen. Mehmood was stuck in the US after 9/11 and got the chance to interact with a large number of US officials and politicians. He was recruited by the Americans to stage the coup.
After the coup, US would have declared that Pakistan has been taken over by Islamist generals and attacked!!
Musharraf pre-empted by firing Mehmood.
Sounds good??
#52 Posted by shammi on October 10, 2001 10:34:58 am
From The News (sorry no persistent hyperlinks)
Ex-ISI chief victim of his over-ambition
News Analysis
By Shakil Shaikh
ISLAMABAD: Deposed ISI Chief Lt Gen Mahmood Ahmed became a victim of his ``over-ambition`` in the glory of powers he was enjoying as Pakistan`s super spymaster.
He tried to outmanoeuvre his seniors in hasty moves to grab the coveted office of Vice Chief of Army Staff, and at the end himself fell flat. Three key incidents were reported to have terminated his career, though many saw in the person of `retired` Lt Gen Mahmood as an emerging dark horse for the office of the Vice Chief of Army Staff.
Firstly he prevented President Gen Pervez Musharraf from visiting Kandahar for a one-to-one meeting with Taliban spiritual leader Mulla Mohammad Omar.
Secondly he misbehaved with almost all the key military and civil aides to the President and one of the service chiefs in a meeting held after his return from the United States in the second week of last month.
Finally he refused to accept President Gen Pervez Musharraf`s offer to become Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee and tried to influence the President to change his mind through common friends. (end of quote)
A persistent link to the story is available at:
http://www.rediff.com/us/2001/oct/10ny11.htm
Ex-ISI chief victim of his over-ambition
News Analysis
By Shakil Shaikh
ISLAMABAD: Deposed ISI Chief Lt Gen Mahmood Ahmed became a victim of his ``over-ambition`` in the glory of powers he was enjoying as Pakistan`s super spymaster.
He tried to outmanoeuvre his seniors in hasty moves to grab the coveted office of Vice Chief of Army Staff, and at the end himself fell flat. Three key incidents were reported to have terminated his career, though many saw in the person of `retired` Lt Gen Mahmood as an emerging dark horse for the office of the Vice Chief of Army Staff.
Firstly he prevented President Gen Pervez Musharraf from visiting Kandahar for a one-to-one meeting with Taliban spiritual leader Mulla Mohammad Omar.
Secondly he misbehaved with almost all the key military and civil aides to the President and one of the service chiefs in a meeting held after his return from the United States in the second week of last month.
Finally he refused to accept President Gen Pervez Musharraf`s offer to become Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee and tried to influence the President to change his mind through common friends. (end of quote)
A persistent link to the story is available at:
http://www.rediff.com/us/2001/oct/10ny11.htm
#53 Posted by amit on October 10, 2001 10:34:58 am
Re:Romair#44
Why did the Pakistani army choose to create and support the Taliban in the first place ? If they wanted to install a friendly regime in Kabul, they could have created and supported a moderate pro-Pakistan outfit. After all, the Taliban was a nascent force that was able to develop thanks to Pakistani support. Pakistan could have extended the same level of support to some moderate outfit. That would have given it the strategic depth while ensuring a stable Afghanistan.
This decision to create the Taliban casts fundamental doubts on the professional and modern credentials of the Pakistan army. I have personally known Pakistanis who have served in their army and airforce. They are indeed very polished, well educated people. However, one has to wonder what inspired the army to support such a venture in Afghanistan. People rightly suspect that there are a lot of closet fundos, who do not appear that way but sympathise with the fundo cause.
Why did the Pakistani army choose to create and support the Taliban in the first place ? If they wanted to install a friendly regime in Kabul, they could have created and supported a moderate pro-Pakistan outfit. After all, the Taliban was a nascent force that was able to develop thanks to Pakistani support. Pakistan could have extended the same level of support to some moderate outfit. That would have given it the strategic depth while ensuring a stable Afghanistan.
This decision to create the Taliban casts fundamental doubts on the professional and modern credentials of the Pakistan army. I have personally known Pakistanis who have served in their army and airforce. They are indeed very polished, well educated people. However, one has to wonder what inspired the army to support such a venture in Afghanistan. People rightly suspect that there are a lot of closet fundos, who do not appear that way but sympathise with the fundo cause.
#54 Posted by amit on October 10, 2001 10:34:58 am
Ras, the US should take this opportunity to destroy these terrorists operating in Afghanistan. At the same time, it is an excellent opportunity to sit down and resolve some of the issues like Israeli-Palestinian conflict and Kashmir. These problems require all sides to accept a compromise. Once people see the cancerous effects of these conflicts lingering on forever, they will see the need for negotiated solutions. Moderate muslims all over the world have to help out the west in order to achieve these negotiated solutions.
There is also a lot of room for creativity. For e.g. a post-war Afghanistan could be given tremendous foreign aid to rebuild itself. It could become a homeland for displaced muslims all over the world including Afghan refugees, Chechen refugees, Kashmiri refugees and even Palestinian refugees, as long as they are all committed to building a new nation. In other words, Afghanistan could be a place where muslims from all over the world build a prosperous nation with generous financing from the rest of the world.
There is also a lot of room for creativity. For e.g. a post-war Afghanistan could be given tremendous foreign aid to rebuild itself. It could become a homeland for displaced muslims all over the world including Afghan refugees, Chechen refugees, Kashmiri refugees and even Palestinian refugees, as long as they are all committed to building a new nation. In other words, Afghanistan could be a place where muslims from all over the world build a prosperous nation with generous financing from the rest of the world.
#55 Posted by nasah on October 10, 2001 10:34:58 am
An excerpt from the editorial by Najm Sethi in Friday Times -- Stand up and be counted.
``September 27 was billed as a day of national solidarity. On that day General Pervez Musharraf asked the people of Pakistan not so much as to choose between the Taleban and America as to stand up and be counted in the ranks of those who oppose extremism and reject narrow-minded isolation. Accordingly, notable rallies were held across the country.
Two salient facts about these rallies stand out. The religious parties were conspicuous by their absence. And the mainstream political parties, especially those who have incurred the military government’s wrath on more than one count like the Peoples Party and the MQM, were very much in attendance.
Thus while the mullahs are burning effigies and threatening jehad against the government for upholding the national interest, the politicians have set aside their quarrels with General Musharraf and are backing him to the hilt in this difficult moment for Pakistan.
There is a lesson in this for the wise men and women of General Musharraf’s government.
During a national security crisis, internal political differences should be sacrificed at the altar of the supreme national interest.
Our difficulties have just begun and the worst is yet to come. If the politicians have understood this point and demonstrated wisdom by supporting General Musharraf, the government should reciprocate by building a formal national coalition to steer the nation-state into safer waters.
This is a time to close ranks, a time for international credibility and not domestic accountability.``(FT)
``September 27 was billed as a day of national solidarity. On that day General Pervez Musharraf asked the people of Pakistan not so much as to choose between the Taleban and America as to stand up and be counted in the ranks of those who oppose extremism and reject narrow-minded isolation. Accordingly, notable rallies were held across the country.
Two salient facts about these rallies stand out. The religious parties were conspicuous by their absence. And the mainstream political parties, especially those who have incurred the military government’s wrath on more than one count like the Peoples Party and the MQM, were very much in attendance.
Thus while the mullahs are burning effigies and threatening jehad against the government for upholding the national interest, the politicians have set aside their quarrels with General Musharraf and are backing him to the hilt in this difficult moment for Pakistan.
There is a lesson in this for the wise men and women of General Musharraf’s government.
During a national security crisis, internal political differences should be sacrificed at the altar of the supreme national interest.
Our difficulties have just begun and the worst is yet to come. If the politicians have understood this point and demonstrated wisdom by supporting General Musharraf, the government should reciprocate by building a formal national coalition to steer the nation-state into safer waters.
This is a time to close ranks, a time for international credibility and not domestic accountability.``(FT)
#56 Posted by Romair on October 10, 2001 10:34:58 am
There has been an interesting debate going on Canadian television (quite a bit more mature than US television on international affairs) on the anti-terrorism resolutions/policies passed by the UN.
I think any country that wants the world to look at terrorism should not hesitate to cooperate with these anti-terrorism resolutions. It should work under these resolutions, and ask the UN to take a look at alleged terrorism being carried out in its areas.
If it is unwilling to do so, then I don`t think anyone will take its claims serioursly, and it should keep its mouth shut.
I think any country that wants the world to look at terrorism should not hesitate to cooperate with these anti-terrorism resolutions. It should work under these resolutions, and ask the UN to take a look at alleged terrorism being carried out in its areas.
If it is unwilling to do so, then I don`t think anyone will take its claims serioursly, and it should keep its mouth shut.
#57 Posted by Romair on October 10, 2001 10:34:58 am
``Pakistani Troops and Taleban Fighters Clash on Border VOA News
10 Oct 2001 05:52 UTC
Pakistani border guards are reported to have fought a brief gunbattle with Afghan Taleban fighters at a remote border area in northwestern Pakistan.
News reports quoted witnesses as saying the gunbattle that lasted more than two hours erupted in Pakistan`s Bajaur tribal district Tuesday, when soldiers stopped a group of Taleban fighters trying to enter Pakistan.
At least four Pakistani troops were wounded in the fighting - the first reported border clash between the Taleban and Pakistan since the U.S.-led military strikes in Afghanistan began on Sunday.`` (www.pakistandaily.com)
Pakistandaily.com is a good source of information.
If these were troops of the Pakistan Army, then I am afraid the Taliban have made a big mistake. Whatever sympathy they had within the Pakistan Army will be finished. Once a soldier of one`s own Army is wounded by another, then all sympathies tend to go out the door, amongst the other soldiers. Call it tradition or call it brotherhood, or call it craziness. But it is taken very seriously.
10 Oct 2001 05:52 UTC
Pakistani border guards are reported to have fought a brief gunbattle with Afghan Taleban fighters at a remote border area in northwestern Pakistan.
News reports quoted witnesses as saying the gunbattle that lasted more than two hours erupted in Pakistan`s Bajaur tribal district Tuesday, when soldiers stopped a group of Taleban fighters trying to enter Pakistan.
At least four Pakistani troops were wounded in the fighting - the first reported border clash between the Taleban and Pakistan since the U.S.-led military strikes in Afghanistan began on Sunday.`` (www.pakistandaily.com)
Pakistandaily.com is a good source of information.
If these were troops of the Pakistan Army, then I am afraid the Taliban have made a big mistake. Whatever sympathy they had within the Pakistan Army will be finished. Once a soldier of one`s own Army is wounded by another, then all sympathies tend to go out the door, amongst the other soldiers. Call it tradition or call it brotherhood, or call it craziness. But it is taken very seriously.
#58 Posted by Banjaara on October 10, 2001 1:21:48 pm
Jay # 43
``The thick plottens.
Alliance staffer who took hijack call dead ``
Maharaj!
Please dont be afraid.Control your self.Do not
cast aspersions on the good name of RAW.Let`s all
wait and see the``thickened plottens`` unfold in the
coming days.Dont worry about 24 year old Wani,he was only a Kashmiri muslim or do you prefer to call him hatoo.
Shubh kamna.
``The thick plottens.
Alliance staffer who took hijack call dead ``
Maharaj!
Please dont be afraid.Control your self.Do not
cast aspersions on the good name of RAW.Let`s all
wait and see the``thickened plottens`` unfold in the
coming days.Dont worry about 24 year old Wani,he was only a Kashmiri muslim or do you prefer to call him hatoo.
Shubh kamna.
#59 Posted by Banjaara on October 10, 2001 1:21:48 pm
Amit # 49
``I have personally known Pakistanis who have served in their army and airforce. They are indeed very polished, well educated people.``
That`s why they are sent on early retirement or kicked out:)))
``I have personally known Pakistanis who have served in their army and airforce. They are indeed very polished, well educated people.``
That`s why they are sent on early retirement or kicked out:)))
#60 Posted by SameerJB on October 10, 2001 1:21:48 pm
Here is an excerpt from an article by Ikram Sehgal in day before yesterday`s ``The Nation`` daily. Ikram Sehgal is one of the most strongly supporter of Musharraf in Pakistani media.
[Mahmood has been one of his closest friends and a regimental colleague from 16-Self-Propelled Regiment (of Artillery). As Commander, Mahmood led the 10-Corps troops (111-Brigade) into the PM’s House (closely following SSG troops heli-lifted earlier from the Mangla Airfield on orders of the CGS Aziz) on the fateful 12 October 1999. It was Muzzafar Usmani as Commander 5-Corps Karachi, who took over the airport to allow the PIA aircraft in which the COAS was travelling, to land. Usmani has again being his close friend and colleague for many years, first as a student and then fellow instructor in both the Command & Staff College, Quetta, and National Defence College (then at Rawalpindi). Yousaf was probably the odd man out of the loop on the fateful day as Aziz as the CGS who masterminded the counter-coup, which brought Pervez Musharraf back as COAS, and de facto ruler of Pakistan. But when it came to replace Aziz (who needed experience as a Corps Commander) he chose Yousaf as CGS. Arguably, the CGS-slot is the most powerful in the Pakistan Army after that of the COAS, particularly because the elite SSG is under his direct control. Aziz was the one who denied control of GHQ to the new team hastily selected by then PM Mian Nawaz Sharif’s COAS-designate Lt Gen Ziauddin Butt.
Mahmood has always been a good professional soldier with a good reputation throughout his career. As DG ISI he stayed very much in the background as it should be and never threw his weight around as other DGs ISI before him. He is from my alma mater, Lawrence College, Ghoragali as is Amjad (formerly Chairman NAB), both quite insignificant characters as schoolboys. Generally, they have been clean except when putting their “Gallian” classmates (and chums) either into various lucrative slots (mainly square pegs in round holes), targeting people like Khalid Aziz (Additional Chief Secretary NWFP) just because he gave them a tough time in school as “head boy” and lastly, protecting some black sheep friends. Unfortunately, Mahmood has never heard a shot being fired in anger, having no combat experience at all. In a news analysis “
Muzaffar Usmani is an acute personal disappointment. Personally very fond of him, I got upset with my good friend and 34th PMA coursemate (and fellow Gallian) Maj Gen (now retired) Malik Saleem Khan when he held up Usmani’s wearing of the rank despite his being approved as Major General. Before that my close friend Ambassador Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat, Sitara-i-Jurrat had spoken of about an incident in Saudi Arabia where he felt Usmani would have been sent home on adverse report.]
Although the above excerpt speaks for itself but I would like to touch upon couple of points. Ist one deals with Khalid Aziz, additional chief secy NWFP. Some of us might recall, above an year or so ago, Bilal Ahmed brought his plight into our attention by reproducing a letter from his daughter to Pakistani newspapers above unfairly charging her father with corruption and keeping him in attock fort (jail) in solitary confinement and perhaps abusing also. I recall discussing his case with some chowkwallahs. Now read the excerpt and understand the reasons behind Khaled Aziz plight. Just another example of corruption free government by people whose ``only`` interest is ``serving`` Pakistan.
Second point is the lifting of SSG troops from Mangla prior under order from gen Aziz by helicopters to Islamabad on october 12, 1999. It also appears from the excerpt that it happened before 111 brigade started moving to conquer Islamabad (111 brigade followed SSG). Funny eh? Did ND fired Musharraf first or Aziz order to bring in SSG troops to Islamabad? I think, NS fired Mushy after seeing the begining of a coup against him by Aziz`s move to bring in SSG men (Mushy was core commander Mangla before appointment as COAS and trusts SSG more). It seems that firing Mushy had nothing to do with accumulating power or appointing more loyal Zia Uddin Butt but a last resort effort to stop coup from succeeding.
[Mahmood has been one of his closest friends and a regimental colleague from 16-Self-Propelled Regiment (of Artillery). As Commander, Mahmood led the 10-Corps troops (111-Brigade) into the PM’s House (closely following SSG troops heli-lifted earlier from the Mangla Airfield on orders of the CGS Aziz) on the fateful 12 October 1999. It was Muzzafar Usmani as Commander 5-Corps Karachi, who took over the airport to allow the PIA aircraft in which the COAS was travelling, to land. Usmani has again being his close friend and colleague for many years, first as a student and then fellow instructor in both the Command & Staff College, Quetta, and National Defence College (then at Rawalpindi). Yousaf was probably the odd man out of the loop on the fateful day as Aziz as the CGS who masterminded the counter-coup, which brought Pervez Musharraf back as COAS, and de facto ruler of Pakistan. But when it came to replace Aziz (who needed experience as a Corps Commander) he chose Yousaf as CGS. Arguably, the CGS-slot is the most powerful in the Pakistan Army after that of the COAS, particularly because the elite SSG is under his direct control. Aziz was the one who denied control of GHQ to the new team hastily selected by then PM Mian Nawaz Sharif’s COAS-designate Lt Gen Ziauddin Butt.
Mahmood has always been a good professional soldier with a good reputation throughout his career. As DG ISI he stayed very much in the background as it should be and never threw his weight around as other DGs ISI before him. He is from my alma mater, Lawrence College, Ghoragali as is Amjad (formerly Chairman NAB), both quite insignificant characters as schoolboys. Generally, they have been clean except when putting their “Gallian” classmates (and chums) either into various lucrative slots (mainly square pegs in round holes), targeting people like Khalid Aziz (Additional Chief Secretary NWFP) just because he gave them a tough time in school as “head boy” and lastly, protecting some black sheep friends. Unfortunately, Mahmood has never heard a shot being fired in anger, having no combat experience at all. In a news analysis “
Muzaffar Usmani is an acute personal disappointment. Personally very fond of him, I got upset with my good friend and 34th PMA coursemate (and fellow Gallian) Maj Gen (now retired) Malik Saleem Khan when he held up Usmani’s wearing of the rank despite his being approved as Major General. Before that my close friend Ambassador Brig (Retd) Saeed Ismat, Sitara-i-Jurrat had spoken of about an incident in Saudi Arabia where he felt Usmani would have been sent home on adverse report.]
Although the above excerpt speaks for itself but I would like to touch upon couple of points. Ist one deals with Khalid Aziz, additional chief secy NWFP. Some of us might recall, above an year or so ago, Bilal Ahmed brought his plight into our attention by reproducing a letter from his daughter to Pakistani newspapers above unfairly charging her father with corruption and keeping him in attock fort (jail) in solitary confinement and perhaps abusing also. I recall discussing his case with some chowkwallahs. Now read the excerpt and understand the reasons behind Khaled Aziz plight. Just another example of corruption free government by people whose ``only`` interest is ``serving`` Pakistan.
Second point is the lifting of SSG troops from Mangla prior under order from gen Aziz by helicopters to Islamabad on october 12, 1999. It also appears from the excerpt that it happened before 111 brigade started moving to conquer Islamabad (111 brigade followed SSG). Funny eh? Did ND fired Musharraf first or Aziz order to bring in SSG troops to Islamabad? I think, NS fired Mushy after seeing the begining of a coup against him by Aziz`s move to bring in SSG men (Mushy was core commander Mangla before appointment as COAS and trusts SSG more). It seems that firing Mushy had nothing to do with accumulating power or appointing more loyal Zia Uddin Butt but a last resort effort to stop coup from succeeding.
#61 Posted by shammi on October 10, 2001 2:08:37 pm
Re: Romair #35
``...Let democracy take its course in places like Egypt and Algeria. If Islamic govts. come into power (which they will in Algeria), work with them...``
What is good for the goose, should also be good for the gander. But, not if your prescription above is compared to what you frequently cited as criticism of the NS regime. You were, if you recall, justifying the unconstitutional removal of NS on the grounds that he was about to introduce the Shariat Bill in the Assembly. Be consistent in your convictions.
``...Let democracy take its course in places like Egypt and Algeria. If Islamic govts. come into power (which they will in Algeria), work with them...``
What is good for the goose, should also be good for the gander. But, not if your prescription above is compared to what you frequently cited as criticism of the NS regime. You were, if you recall, justifying the unconstitutional removal of NS on the grounds that he was about to introduce the Shariat Bill in the Assembly. Be consistent in your convictions.
#62 Posted by Romair on October 10, 2001 2:08:37 pm
ali! #56: Your conspiracy theory is pretty good:-)
Here is another one:
Musharraf had personally appointed Mahmood and Usmani at their respective positions, after the coup. They were close friends of his, specially Usmani. These are well-known facts.
However, during Mahmood`s visit to Afghanistan, he was indoctrinated by the Taliban. He was so impressed by Mullah Umar, that he became a disciple, right there and then, and vowed to disown Musharraf and Pakistan (a person for whom he had risked his life in a coup, and a country for which he had fought a war).
Mahmood then started to influence Usmani. And within two days, their personailities completely changed. They were no longer the same people that Musharraf knew before Sep 11, 01. They turned into fanatics, overnight. Usmani even started to let his beard grow out.
Musharraf then decided to appoint Aziz as the new ISI head. However, tehelka.com had already declared Aziz to be a fanatic. This, of course, definitely makes him one:-) And his beard was a Navy stypled beard like Ayaz Amir`s, which makes him a bigger fanatic than Usmani (who has a shorter beard). And almost, but not quite, as big a fanatic as ZZ Top (the rock group which has longer beards than anyone). However, how could tehelka.com be wrong? That is impossible. They know the personalities of the Pakistani generals, better than their own wife and kids.
This placed Musharraf in a pickle? How did all his colleagues who helped him carry out the coup, become fanatics overnight. He had known them for thirty years. Due to this, he decided to, ``purge`` the Army of all fundamentalists by superseding these two guys. He also decided to renew his membership of tehelka.com, so that he can keep an eye on his close friends.
Either these two guys were the only fanatics in the Army, in which case they made a mistake of assisting in overthrowing NS, who was about to pass the Shariat Bill. If they only would not have assisted in the coup, there beloved Shariat Bill would have been a law. Or tehelka.com and other papers (and many Pakistani contributors on Chowk) project themselves to know more about the internals of the Pakistani military, than they actually do. Or Pakistan Army is still filled with fanatics (who for some reason never become COAS), and soon they will recruit ZZ Top as their new leader.
Here is another one:
Musharraf had personally appointed Mahmood and Usmani at their respective positions, after the coup. They were close friends of his, specially Usmani. These are well-known facts.
However, during Mahmood`s visit to Afghanistan, he was indoctrinated by the Taliban. He was so impressed by Mullah Umar, that he became a disciple, right there and then, and vowed to disown Musharraf and Pakistan (a person for whom he had risked his life in a coup, and a country for which he had fought a war).
Mahmood then started to influence Usmani. And within two days, their personailities completely changed. They were no longer the same people that Musharraf knew before Sep 11, 01. They turned into fanatics, overnight. Usmani even started to let his beard grow out.
Musharraf then decided to appoint Aziz as the new ISI head. However, tehelka.com had already declared Aziz to be a fanatic. This, of course, definitely makes him one:-) And his beard was a Navy stypled beard like Ayaz Amir`s, which makes him a bigger fanatic than Usmani (who has a shorter beard). And almost, but not quite, as big a fanatic as ZZ Top (the rock group which has longer beards than anyone). However, how could tehelka.com be wrong? That is impossible. They know the personalities of the Pakistani generals, better than their own wife and kids.
This placed Musharraf in a pickle? How did all his colleagues who helped him carry out the coup, become fanatics overnight. He had known them for thirty years. Due to this, he decided to, ``purge`` the Army of all fundamentalists by superseding these two guys. He also decided to renew his membership of tehelka.com, so that he can keep an eye on his close friends.
Either these two guys were the only fanatics in the Army, in which case they made a mistake of assisting in overthrowing NS, who was about to pass the Shariat Bill. If they only would not have assisted in the coup, there beloved Shariat Bill would have been a law. Or tehelka.com and other papers (and many Pakistani contributors on Chowk) project themselves to know more about the internals of the Pakistani military, than they actually do. Or Pakistan Army is still filled with fanatics (who for some reason never become COAS), and soon they will recruit ZZ Top as their new leader.
#63 Posted by tahmed321 on October 10, 2001 2:08:37 pm
Jay #43 ``The thick plottens``
And hate makes Jay speaking forgottens...
And hate makes Jay speaking forgottens...
#64 Posted by harimau on October 10, 2001 2:47:19 pm
Re Banjaara #: 32
[``Musharraf, the wily Delhi-born Muhajir that he is, has made all the right moves, at the right time.``]
Guys, you got your dream. We have a guy eligible for Indian citizenship under Indian laws ruling Pakistan.
Oops! I guess you guys want a Pakistani to rule from Delhi.
Sometimes, you got to change your dreams.
[``Musharraf, the wily Delhi-born Muhajir that he is, has made all the right moves, at the right time.``]
Guys, you got your dream. We have a guy eligible for Indian citizenship under Indian laws ruling Pakistan.
Oops! I guess you guys want a Pakistani to rule from Delhi.
Sometimes, you got to change your dreams.
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- bubba: Hey dude, this is... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- bubba: Hey dude, this is... Mumbai Attacks: Shocking
- anil: Re: # 45 HP sahib: "...Is... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- jayp: Among the doom and... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- harish_hyd: #45 by HP The evidence... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- jayp: BERLIN: Germany agreed Sunday... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- HP: #41 Posted by anil "Pakistan... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- rf786: Its all about economics. Operation... Karachi Riots! Who is
