Military Action Begins in Afghanistan

re fuzair #212:

SameerJB may seem biased against the army to those who have been in the army (FM(Hon.) ROmair) or have had a close association with it(Fuzair I presume) due to family or professional ties. SameerJB criticizes the role of the army as an institution. I suspect that Sameer has no personal ties to the army(Sameer please correct me if I am wrong). Every institution has good and bad people and so does the army. The critical factor is how does the institution as a whole affected a praticular outcome. Just as there were Nazis who would be horrified by what Hitler did, there are/were generals who are morally as well as professionally upright. Unfortunately as an institution the army has brought nothing but ruin to Pakistan.

The present love affair of the `thinking` Pakistanis with Pervez Musharraf will not last for long. He is trying reform an institution that has brought Pakistan to its present day ruin forgetting that in the end he owes his allegiance to that very institution for his good fortune. Do I hear someone say Gorbachev?

later

-sac

nasah #203 ``I sometimes wonder as to why and how Pakistan has ended up being such an irrational Indophobe -- despite people like you, tahmed, krashid, Samina Shah and so many others.``

So kind of you sir to include me on the side of the angels.

More seriously, you raise an important issue: I think the problem is this - first, the government to government relations are no indication of the people to peoople relations (when people meet in real life, as opposed to the one-dimensional interactions on chowk). Person to person, we understand each other`s language, share the same history, and have no problem getting along. I have met a number of Indians of all religions who have visited Pakistan - not one of them has reported being received in anything other than in a friendly manner, and many have expressed surprise at the warmth extended to them by people on the street. So the basic answer to your question is: there is no problem among the people. Governments are driven by all sorts of political agendas and posturing and so forth. Our pathetic India-Pakistan fighters on chowk simply take their cue from the posturing of their respective governments and their press releases. We need to think for ourselves. Then the People Will Triumph!!

I wonder where krashid is though, havent seen a post from him in ages.

Romair:

``However, it is good to know the same occurs in the IAF :-)``

Oye, tussi jinna marzi alag kai lo, khoon tey ikko hee hai.

Ironically, when Jay calls all you guys Arabs, it is Kerala which actually had more interaction with the Arabs than the Punjabis. Interesting thought. Will come back to it.

All Pakistanis happy at having women being inducted in Armed Forces should have another think.

I have seen it first hand in India. First they join service, then after 2-3 years they get married to another fauji. The Mian-Biwi spend the next 20 years of their career bitching about field postings, and requesting P Staff at Army/Air HQ for transfer on compassionate grounds to wherever the spouse is posted. What a fraud on the Armed Forces and the tax payer.

Are the Armed Forces constituted to fight wars or be breeding grounds of social experiments. If women are to be taken in armed forces, then the rules should forbid fellow officers from marrying each other. You can`t treat the Armed Forces like a dating club.

Re: Shima

Thank you -- now I will have to try even harder to remain `objective and balanced`.

Zafar Al-Talib #209

``SHHHHHHHHHH! They aren?t supposed to know about the ZHCTITWMFTSPODP till the Magen David flies above the Minar e Pakistan.``

Oops! Theek kahthe hain aap, main ek measly acronym ka bhi raaz nahin rakkh saki..? Lead me to some chullu bhar paani.. And here I was looking forward to my Diwali/Hannukkah bonus...

Re: SameerJB and Hobbyty on Corp Commanders and War Lords

To the best of my knowledge, this metaphor about the Corp Commanders being the warlords which rule Pakistan was first made by Lt. Gen. Fazle Haq in 1978 or 1979 when he was both Corp Commander (Peshawar) and Governor of the NWFP. My father was present on the occasion that he described himself as one of the eight (seven commanders and the COAS, I think that was the correct number of corps then) warlords that ruled Pakistan. For all his faults, and he had no shortage of them, Fazle Haq could be brutally honest at times, especially if he had had a chotta peg or three.

While I agree that Sameer has a bias against the Army, it doesn`t mean that he is not worth reading or taking seriously. I`d rather read his stuff than that of most other posters on Chowk, present company excepted, of course ;-).

Regards.

saminashah #210

This was in todays newspaper:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/18/international/asia/18NOTE.html
In Quiet Corners, the Roots of Afghan Rebellion

``could this not be an auspicious moment for some of the thornier Kashmir issues be addressed? ``

I think its an auspicious time for jihadi organisations to seek glory or shahadat in the conflict in Afghanistan. I think we need to maintain a respectful silence and hold our thoughts till after :).

In my view, the stupidest thing India can do at this time is ``validate`` Pakistan`s jihadi paradigm of the last many years in Kashmir, at the same time that Pakistan is trying to handle the fallout of the same thing in Afghanistan.

Re Chechyna : Well, there is not only Chechyna, there are a half a dozen Central Asian Republics in which there are `Islamic` rebels on one side and elected/unelected leaders and regimes on another. There has to be a better way to do these things than have religious warriors claim to be fighting for `human rights`. I just hope all the facts are put out without bias when these other countries too fall prey to the same violence(I happen to believe they will, eventually).

Re US policies, samina, you should, if you can, watch Charlie Rose(11pmE PBS). Quite often in the recent days, many points have made there which perhaps you would like to hear being made.

Sadna

re: 193

Not only is winter coming and Afghanistan days away from an all out humanitarian crisis, but other considerations are brewing. I have heard that Col. Powell has indicated to Afghanistan and Pakistan that the new coalition govt. will be allowed to incorporate ``moderate Taliban members``...quite an interesting phrase...Chowkies, I throw this question out to y`all; Is there such a thing as a ``moderate Taliban politician``? What are the implications of their inclusion into Powell`s vision of a coalition?

Also, as Dost-Mittar pointed out, could this not be an auspicious moment for some of the thornier Kashmir issues be addressed? If so, hopefully Pakistan and India will be given the courage and wisdom to follow through...

Finally, how thrilled is Russia to have the US help them deal with Afghanistan? I`d say our Insanely Happy Barometer has broken it`s red needle in gauging just how happy... What with the 50,000+ Chechnyans murdered in the civil war in Chechyna-is there any indication that,if given independence before the terrible human rights abuses there courtesy of the Russia govt., Chechnya might have walked the moderate line of Tajikistan?

regards

P.s. I think my post responding to your al J one was lost. Quickly, I am troubled by the distinction that the al J journalist made in labelling Palestinian bombers as ``martyrs`` and the WTC monsters as ``terrorists``...also, you can bet your last dollar that the IRA is looked at in completely different terms by mainstream media-in fact that situation was handled by the US govt. in a completely different manner; by US mediated negotiations if memory serves...

Reply Sadna # 178

“Its proof of the Zionist-Hindu conspiracy to infiltrate the Western media for the sole purpose of defaming Pakistan.”

SHHHHHHHHHH! They aren’t supposed to know about the ZHCTITWMFTSPODP till the Magen David flies above the Minar e Pakistan. Sadnaji, kabhi kabhi aap tho sab ko sab highly classified secrets batha dethe hain…

Reply Hobbyty # 179

HT (anybody?)

Is women in the Pakistani military a new thing? Surely not.

Two of my grand aunts were doctors in the Pakistani army. Were women only allowed in the medical service?

re: nasah # 203

``aur ek hee sa kum nehana mangtey ho.``

ha ha..well, my dear nasah, I object. Main tau roz subah subah nehata hoon, thand mein bhi. On the other hand, if you met a couple of my friends... :)

SameerJB #197: After reading many of your replies, I have come to the conclusion you hate anyone or anything relating to religion attempting to get power, through any means. And you hate anyone having to do anything with the military, in Pakistan. And you blame the above two for not only all the past and present problems, but the future problems also.

I am assuming that you are currently be caught in a dilemma because it is the military which has finally taken on the responsibility of taking on the extremist religious parties in Pakistan. Something none of the political govts. attempted. Infact, it was Bhutto (even before Zia) who started this religious ball rolling. It was infact Benazir under whose leadership the Taliban came into power.

The solution to any problem is not to just criticize anyone and everyone. That is easy to do, and may make one popular. But it rarely solves the problem. The solution is to point out right and wrong, without any in-built biases. Otherwise, one can never see any good in the acts of people one is prejudiced against, and one can never see any wrong in the people one supports. This is actually the biggest cause of the problems in Pakistan. Everyone blames the, ``other group`` for all the problems.

``Fortunately their brand of tribalism helped by Islam remained cutaneous for majority of desi converts-less beardos, less homo, less vulgar with respect to women and less barbaric. ``

If I understand this remark correctly, you seem to consider Afghans to be homos, beardos, vulgar etc. Does this amount to racism?

``Why don`t they go and join their fellow ummah in Afghanistan and leave Pakistan to Pakstanis. A true Pakistani will be less hostile to India and a true Indian would be less hostile to Pakistan.``

It is quite unfortunate to blame every problem between India and Pakistan on religion. This is a very simplistic view. Pakistanis and Indians have been hostile to each other under all kinds of govts. Relgious parties have just come into power in India. And they have never come into power in Pakistan. Every war fought between India and Pakistan occured when both countries were under relatively secular and liberal regimes. Jinnah was running Pakistan and Nehru was running India when the 47 war occured, etc.

The problems between India and Pakistan are overwhelmingly based on Kashmir. Just look at the replies on Chowk. People need to accept this, and work towards some sort of a solution. If they keep blaming Pakistan`s fishing policies, India`s cricketing policies, the BJP, the JI, and whatever else for these problems, the problems will never get solved. The later are only a by-product of the core problems. And if Indians and Pakistanis really want peace, they have to have the courage to accept their respective faults, on the core issue of Kashmir.

hobbyty #200,

Bitter truth hurts. But just do not discard Sameer`s post branding him malicious and hateful. The true patriots in this board are Sameer, Hamidm, Shankar, Shammi, Dost-mittar, Eklavya and Zafar. These people question what obviously are wrong in their respective countries,culture, and this is definitely the first step before one can offer any remedy. Sameer and Shammi always post well researched, well thought posts. Try to see them in their own lights. Having said that, you are free to see things in your own light as well ..:)

Dear Sameer:

It`s always a pleasure to read your scholarly posts. You`re such a level headed, rational Pakistani.

I sometimes wonder as to why and how Pakistan has ended up being such an irrational Indophobe -- despite people like you, tahmed, krashid, Samina Shah and so many others.

You are so right. It should be so simple, so natural and so inexpensive for the Pakistanis and Indians to shake hands with each others as brothers and good friends and live happily ever after -- like the Canadians and the Americans.

Hindus are , gentle, warmhearted, colorful, artistic people -- make great friends -- of course with some exceptions -- like the Hindu Talibani Bal -- chokraa Thackrey -- but then again who dosn`t have these weirdos -- of all coutries Pakistan shold be the last to complain.

As someone in US commented -- ``tum log ek sa khana khatey ho -- ek sa gana gaatey ho -- aur ek hee sa kum nehana mangtey ho`` -- then what is difference bwtween the Indians and Pakistani --``they all look alike``.

Yes, Mazare Sharif has not fallen (more aptly risen) yet -- (that was the news flash from a Russian ``news agency``) -- but it may soon -- an anxiously awaited moment for the women of Mazare-Sharif. May God end their persecution soon.

regards

Romair

Just the possibilities we were talking about. While this article states that they have 650 vendors world-wide, let me tell you that in my interaction with embassy staff here, I was told that POF prefers to sell directly. I brought the incident in England, where they made a deal with some reporters, to their attention - they were unmoved - If only we can get these civil servants out of business. -- additionally, you may be interested in a article in Business Recorder about how corporate farming has become a football between Board of investment and CBR - Amazingly, the strategy is to tax entrepreneurial activity, and not profits - One day, some day, Pakistanis will throw out these idiots, on to the streets. BTW - did u get my post about info on FC1 project info?

``30 countries buying conventional weapons from Pakistan

ISLAMABAD : Pakistan Ordinance Factories (POF) has 30 countries on its export list for conventional weapons, said Chairman POF Board Lieutenant General Abdul Qayyum. Addressing a seminar on ``Role of POF in defence production and national growth``, organised by College of Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Rawalpindi, Lieutenant General Qayyum said negotiations are in progress to bring other nations into to the net of POF exports.

He said among those nations with whom the business talks are on, the material buyers could be Oman, Malaysia, Turkey, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Kuwait and Egypt in the near future. He said POF has enormous production potential and the surplus products from the. requirement of the country`s armed forces are being exported to various countries.

He said the POF Board strictly adheres to the international rules and regulations with special regard to the UN charter for exporting the weapons.

He said in a number of spheres the POF has indigenised the production which helped save over Rs 500 million in foreign exchange during the last fiscal.

Spelling out the new dimensions of their policies, Ll. General Qayyum said the interaction with private sectors has proved a milestone to achieve further goals in various sectors of arsenal manufacturing

He said with the help of private entrepreneurs, international links would be pondered to enhance the exports of the factory.

In the coin minting sector, he said the parleys with the Ministry of Finance are on to win the contract for Rs 5 coin blank minting.

He said that a Saudi-based firm Almisel has bought 20% shares of Wah Nobel - a subsidiary of POF that manufactures commercial explosives.

Another Saudi-based company Al-Sultan and Company has shown interest in launching a joint venture with POF. The company`s chairman recently paid a visit to POF Wah and discussed various proposals about the initiating of the joint venture.

Answering a question, he said that the POF has 650 vendors all around the globe and they are also helping to expand the POF`s business net abroad. -APP