Military Action Begins in Afghanistan

RanaRansher #184

Thanks for the article. Being a Pakistani, I am well aware of the facts presented in this article... It is no secret that Saudi Arabia financed Taliban regime along with a huge network of deobandi/wahabi madarssahs in Pakistan with the help and support of ISI. Saudis wanted to create a ``wahabi`` state; sympathetic to Sauids in a very strategic part of South Asia... it’s a long story...

Americans pretend that they were unaware of the nightmare of Saudi Arabia. However, let me assure you that Americans knew about the despotic Al Sauds all along! That Saudi Arabia is essentially a racist society... That Al Saud family rules Saudi Arabia with an iron hand... that in Saudi Arabia dissention of any kind is punished by beheading... that even Muslims who do not share the narrow minded, puritanical interpretation of Islam as espoused by Saudis are considered infidels by Saudis. That, in Sauida, Muslims who do not agree with ``wahabi`` religion of Saudis cannot practice their ``Muslim`` faith freely.
But they didn`t give a sh-it about it until sept. 11.

To all you murdereous terrorists with disgust !
applies to all terrorist nations or anyone offereing rationale for terrorist acts. You know exactly who are the bunch of people who are spreading lies right now.

Saudi Royals and Reality From nytimes
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN


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hree cheers for Mayor Rudy Giuliani for returning the $10 million donation made by a Saudi billionaire, Prince Alwaleed bin Talal, after he toured the World Trade Center ruins, handed the mayor a check and then declared that it was time to get at the ``roots`` of this terrorism — which the Saudi royal defined as the U.S. failure to push Israel to make peace with the Palestinians and to stop Israel from ``slaughtering`` Palestinians.

No doubt there is deep Arab anger over U.S. support for Israel. I`ve gotten angry myself over the failure of successive U.S. governments to restrain Israel`s voracious settlement-building program. But to suggest that Israel is slaughtering Palestinians for sport, as if a war were not going on there, which Israel did not court, in which civilians on both sides are being killed — or to suggest that President Clinton didn`t spend the whole end of his term forging a real plan for a Palestinian state, which Yasir Arafat ran away from, with the Saudi government only a few steps behind him, because it required some fair compromises on Jerusalem — or to suggest that somehow Arab anger over any of this justified people blowing up buildings in New York — is just a lie.

Normally such casual lying doesn`t bother me. It`s a staple of Middle East politics, and in the end only hurts the liars. But this particular version is dangerous, because it masks a deeper lie that can hurt us. I call it ``the virgin birth problem.``

To listen to Saudi officials, or read the Arab press, you would never know that most of the hijackers were young Saudis, or that the main financing for Osama bin Laden — a Saudi — has been coming from other wealthy Saudis, or that Saudi Arabia`s government was the main funder of the Taliban. No, to listen to them you would think that all these young men had virgin births: they came from nowhere, no society is responsible for them, and no Arab state need reflect on how perpetrators of such a grotesque act could have come from its womb.

Attention, Prince Alwaleed: These young men came from your country, and while the Palestinian issue no doubt angers them, it does not compare to their hatred of what Mr. bin Laden called the corrupt, ``hypocritical,`` ``hereditary`` Arab regimes, starting with Saudi Arabia.

So if you want to do something useful with your $10 million, then endow an anti-corruption campaign in Saudi Arabia, or endow American Studies departments in all Saudi universities, or endow a center of Islamic learning in Saudi Arabia that would focus on the teachings of reformist Islamic scholars. Or give the money to Seeds of Peace, which brings Arab and Israeli youth together, or invest in development inside Saudi Arabia or Palestine, so young Saudis and Palestinians can find fulfilling jobs. Or persuade King Fahd to say publicly that if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, Saudi Arabia would lead the Muslim world into diplomatic relations with Israel.

But whatever you do, stop lying to us and to yourselves. Because we`re sick of it, and we`re not alone. So many Arab citizens, seeking a better future for their kids, are also starved for the truth. Consider this letter, written by a Sudanese, Hashem Hassan. It was published last week in the London-based Arabic daily Al-Quds Al-Arabi, and translated by the invaluable MEMRI research service.

``We must stop presenting [Mr. bin Laden] as a stepson of American and Western hegemony. He is the lawful son of Arab-Muslim helplessness. He is a completely legal son, to whom we, with our rigidity, gave birth — we the supporters of pan-Arabism, you the Marxists, you the Islamists and you, the other educated individuals. We undermined our homeland and our peoples to the point where they became easy prey to the interests of America, Israel and others. . . . Renouncing these prodigal sons and attempting to lay them at the door of the West is shirking responsibility. It would be better to admit our paternity, and [admit] that our primary mistake in the education that we gave them was that we closed our societies, our schools, and our media to freedom and knowledge, to the possibility of learning from mistakes.``

If you really want to honor the terrorists` victims, Prince Alwaleed, set up a newspaper and TV station in Saudi Arabia — not in London — that can freely publish such thoughts. Then we`ll start to feel that the roots of this tragedy are being addressed.

Until then, I`m with Rudy — here`s your money back.

Hold your horses, stupid Georgey boy. This is not the time to destabilze the LOC.

The name Goerge Fernandez doesn`t mean a thing in the WEST. Control your mouth.

So just stay where you`re. This is not the time to rock the leaky boat of Musharraf.

Musharraf is indespensable right now for Pakistan and for -- India as well -- replacement will be India`s worst nightmare.

Let Musharraf deal (and deal he MUST) with his Islamic monsters and let`s pray he survives -- he does not need another BJP extremist Advani jumping in his boat.

So chill it BJP India.

hobbyty #189 Thanks for this refreshing news. The military in Pakistan (whatever one thinks of the mess it has made with martial laws) has been a great institution for social progress: uniformed personnel tend to drop whatever ethnic or religious hangups they may have and see each others as fellow soldiers. Now the PAF has struck a blow for getting rid of gender hangups as well.

Incidentally, army aviation has the combat and reconnaisance helicopters, and as I recall PAF used to have those oversized and underpowered Russian transport helicopters only (I could be somewhat inaccurate here). So, I assume army aviation will be next in inducting female pilots.

Re: hobbyty

``PAF female cadets all set to fly``

The law won`t protect them from honour killings, but flying is OK? Plus, don`t burkhas get in the way at those speeds?

I was told these are Kashmiris fighting in Kashmir for Kashmir. What is this I read about Lashkar e Toiba fighting for Pakistan? Very soon Lashkar e Killeroiba will be fighting to take over Pakistan.

From the Yawn

``Lashkar-e-Taiba vows suicide attacks against India:

SRINAGAR, Oct 16: Lashkar-e-Taiba vowed today to launch suicide attacks against India to avenge overnight firing on Pakistani posts on the disputed border. ``Special fidayeen (suicide) squads have been asked to carry out attacks against Indian security forces,`` Lashkar spokesman Abu Osama said, in response to the unprovoked attacks against Pakistan. ``Attacks by Indian army on Pakistani soil will cost India dearly,`` he told AFP. (AFP) (Posted @ 12:50 PST)``

Sarwari

from ``Dawn`` oct 16, 2001

``PAF female cadets all set to fly

By Our Cultural Reporter

ISLAMABAD – For the first time in the history of Pakistan Air Force, female cadets are now allowed to compete with male on open merit. In 2001 PAF made a challenging induction of 43 female cadets, who would be allowed to fly, though in a limited way. like flying slow flying aircraft such as light communication, transport and helicopters. That, according to PAF, is a great contribution towards gender equality policy of the government.

This was disclosed by Officer Commanding, Cadets Wing, while introducing the largest batch of female cadets chosen by PAF to the journalists at PAF Academy Risalpur.

The issue of female combat soldiers and pilots has remained a controversy for a long time, as according to the military traditions, women were inducted with a very slow pace only in administrative and health branches of the military, like doctors, nurses, psychologists, and some other ground administrative and secretarial posts.

Female officers were first inducted in PAF in 1977, with six female psychologists inducted into the cadre officers, out of which one was promoted to the rank of Group Captain, and is currently serving in the PAF. Then in 1993 PAF recruited women for other branches except GD(P) and ADWC. The first batch of four female cadets were inducted in the education and data Automation branches.

Though the policy was revised in 1997, removing the initial quota of female officers of only five per cent of the total PAF strength that was targeted to be achieved by the year 1999. So far, slightly more than 100 female cadets have been commissioned in various branches.

As the female cadets proved to be highly motivated and dedicated and thoroughly committed to the duties assigned to train them to PAF has taken up this new challenge to make them fly as well. Though this is a very long and slow process, but it is indeed the first step towards having female combat fighters and fliers in the military set-up paving way to dynamic change in the military policy of the country.

The present batch of 43 cadets reported on August 10, 2001, and is considered to be the largest till date.

These cadets will be imparted rigorous training in three dimensions, physical, military and academic. After successful completion of their training, they will be awarded the rank of flying officers and flight lieutenant. After completion of their demanding and challenging period, these female officers will be posted to all the bases and units of PAF to serve the nation.

A briefing was also given by the Director of Studies, College of Flying, PAF Academy Risalpur, about various departments of the Academy and the training procedures.

The induction of the new batch of 43 female cadets in PAF will open doors for all women wishing to join the military . It is high time, the Pakistan military takes some positive steps to include women in all ranks, as they are now consisting of more than half of the total population of the country and are working in almost all fields which were previously forbidden to them.``

Gowardhan #176
`` Pakistan`s foreign ministry has denied the interview. USA Today is immediately discredited. Proof that USA Today reporter was a paid Indian agent.``

Its proof of the Zionist-Hindu conspiracy to infiltrate the Western media for the sole purpose of defaming Pakistan.

Romair #174:

I know fencing the LOC is difficult... I was only responding (in jest) to Ali1`s comment that Pak should fence its border with Afghanistan, another impossible task, if I might say.

Regarding the Layman nick, I have explained on another board long ago that it is not because of the dictionary meaning, but something else. :-)

``What is India`s end-game in Kashmir? How long does it plan to keep its soldiers in there? Could somebody answer (thanks in advance)?``

India has no end-game in Kashmir. As I am never tired of saying, we are the status quo power. Our end-game, if it can be called that, is maintaining the status quo. The armed forces will be there as long as there is terrorism and as long as the local police / govt is unable to control law and order situation. Effectively, as long as Pak keeps sending its martyrs... The reason being that India does not have the capability to enforce a military solution to J&K issue on Pakistan. It can attempt a political solution internally (as it has been trying off and on) but that requires a change of heart locally and also at the Centre and a great deal of skill.

nasah

You too are maligning Pakistan. India is maligning Pakistan. The world is maligning Pakistan. Pakistan is maligning Pakistan. Ylh, sarwari, and PM are maligning Pakistan.

Pakistan`s foreign ministry has denied the interview. USA Today is immediately discredited. Proof that USA Today reporter was a paid Indian agent.

Long live Jhoothistan.

Long live Parvez Murabba

Long live Yawn.

layman ``India`s border and LOC with crapistan must be fenced right away.``

The definition of layman, according to www.dictionary.com is, ``A man who is a nonprofessional.`` Does this apply to you? :)

Fencing the LOC is an impossible task for either India or Pakistan. Pakistan is obviously not interested in fencing it. India is. However, the moment India starts fencing it, Pakistan will start blowing away the fencing with its artillery. So, it is a pointless task.

You need to keep in mind that while IOK is considered part of India, by nearly all Indians, it is actually considered disputed terrotory by the rest of the world (please take a look at the UN maps, if you do not believe me. If you do not believe the UN maps, then please read Nehru`s speeches in the late 40s and early 50s timeframe. If you do not believe him either, then please read Gandhis` speeches. If you do not believe him also, then please listen to the statements from the US state dept. If you are still not convinced, then please go ahead and attempt to fence the border personally. But I would advise you to watch out for flying canon balls, courtesy Pakistan Ordinance Factory Wah, while you are busy fencing :)).

Any issue that occurs in IOK or POK is not taken to the UN by India, due to the UN resolutions that are in effect, for plebescite. It is because of this reason, that India wants to keep this issue bilateral. This worked for India, in a non-nuclear South Asia, as India could threaten Pakistan across Sind and Punjab, in retaliation to Kashmir. However, now in a nuclear world, India cannot do so. That is why, it has been pressurising the US to act, outside the UN, and apply sanctions against Pakistan. These sanctions would burden Pakistan so much that it would bend on Kashmir, without the UN coming into play. This seemed to be working partially, until the recent change in US policy towards Pakistan.

Now India is stuck. Due to this, fencing an area that, according to the UN, belongs to neither India nor Pakistan will not work.

I think sooner or later, India will have to take this issue to the UN. Its only hope was to get the US to declare Pakistan some sort of a terrorist state, outside the UN. The US did not do so even during its lowest point of relations with Pakistan, it definitely will not do so, now. For the simple reason that Pakistan is not and has never been even close to being a terrorist state (if India was actually convinced that it was one, it would not hesitate to apply the UN anti-terrorism resolutions on Pakistan). Just ask Amnesty International. I forgot. AI is banned in IOK, also. So nobody is going to ask them.

As long as India continues to bypass the UN and HR organizations, its claims will never be take to be true (even if they are true). What is India`s end-game in Kashmir? How long does it plan to keep its soldiers in there? Could somebody answer (thanks in advance)?

``Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf has suggested that the US first ``take out`` Taliban supreme leader Mullah Mohammad Omar before targeting Osama bin Laden.

Gen. Musharraf will tell US Secretary of State Colin Powell during his visit to Islamabad that Washington must first target those sheltering terrorists.

in an interview with the daily newspaper USA Today and US television broadcaster CBS. Gen Musharraf said : ``Get Mullah Omar, and Osama won`t be able to operate. He`ll be on the run.``

``You must take out the center of gravity,`` he said in the interview.

Gen. Musharraf told USA Today that Pakistan does not know bin Laden`s exact location in Afghanistan but that its intelligence services were working hard to find him.

He also said the Taliban would not be able to ``muster enough strength`` to defeat US ground forces when they are deployed in Afghanistan, as widely expected.``

Interesting!

#164 nasah

Hasan, you make too much sense. America likes bombing civilians and so it shall. The elder Bush killed 2000-odd panamanians so he could catch an ex-CIA informant, Noriega, in an operation they should have named ``just `cause i`m no wimp``.

Re: Sadna #170

I do not know

Re: SameerJB #160

Thank you for the correction. You are, of course, correct about Tariq Ali. He is the son of Mazhar Ali, who was the chief editor--not the owner--of the Pakistan Times. Although a Lefty, Mazhar Ali, like Faiz Ahmad Faiz, had also served as an Army officer in WWII. Those were the days when the danger was that the Army was socialist, not whacko fundamentalist!

Regards.

shammi #119
`` A friend`s friend (ex-Wharton MBA) was on the 82nd floor of Tower 1, and on his second day in a new job on 9/11, after having just moved from California. His wife was still in California, packing household belongings. He was last seen outside an elevator stating that, `he will take the next one...`. His remains have not yet been found.``

Was your friend`s friend one of four brothers?