A Time for Renewal

Janaab Minai,

Nice sentiments, but ask yourself this: If you knew nothing at all about the koran and did not have the benefit of being surrounded by wonderful muslims since you were born, and you picked up a copy of the koran, what kind of impression would it leave on you? Americans emptying out the bookstore shelves of the koran are probably interested to see what jihad is, for example, and what are they going to find? This is an ominous development for islam in its dealings with the west.

Nuanced interpretations work only for the subset (self-selected) believers who are looking for justification and inspiration for good deeds. They proabaly would have done well with or without the koran. The key is, as you have mentioned it yourself, that there is enough harsh stuff in there to antagonize unbelievers.

It`s ironic that you should mention catholicism as somehow similar, because catholicism has been criticised for its ``idolatry`` and its emphasis that the bible by itself does not constitute the religion. There`s the tradition and the church and the mystery and so on, which in their totality constitute the catholic faith. Islam on the other hand is unwavering and uncompromising in its dogmatism. I am not saying muslims are, but islam is. That`s the big difference. Anyone who is trying to discover islam apart from its practitioners is going to be shocked by the darkness of the dogma. (I know this the exact opposite of islam good, muslims bad thesis propounded here and elsewhere.)

A pretty good article along the same lines as those of Ronald K Rodebaugh and Urstrulys` recent articles. IMHO, this article also suggest Muslims to challenge extremism and blind faith by lifting selective quotes from the pages of Quran and following the ``glorious`` liberal and rational traditions that flowered once every 500 or so years among faithful Muslims. Waiting for the next ice-age, when the decadent western culture, the free society, the individual freedom and persuit of happiness in pluralistic traditions will all be buried by the ice sheets covering temperate region of decadent west? That will be the greatest victory of Islam helped by god and Muslim prayers for the destruction of enemies of Islam.

One very obvious avenue to freedom and rationalism, often conveniently ignored by Muslims is to look elsewhere-beyond Quran and Islamic traditions. How can any sensible person not take such a possibility seriously that better or much better ideas existed alongwith Islamic ones during the last 1400 or 2000 or 3000 years ago? Were all Indians, Chinese, native Americans and Africans living in caves at the height of Islamic/ Arabic culture and empires? Fact is that world was full of equally good or better alternatives to Islamic/ Christian/ Judaic philosophies of nomads of Jerusalem and Arabia. So I repeat my cheap and effective remedy or cure for the ills of Islam-decrease the importance of religion in personal, social, public and political life. All other alternatives require, a sort of genetic engineering, to change the thinking of most of the 1400 year of history of Muslims.

By the way, I was also working on an article along the same lines with the title, ``Delusions of Grandeur``. But now I feel, the issue has been thoroughly discussed lately and no need for my article.

P.S. V. S. Naipaul wins Nobel Prize for literature. Lets see who wins Nobel Prize for Peace? How about Abdul Sattar Edhi?

Ali Sahib:

Excellent thoughts and very well summed up at the end. Never was there a greater need to part ways with the fundamentalists. Let them go to heaven via fedex..er Kandahar while the rest of us show solidarity with the rest of the civilized world.

later

-sac

The best and worst thing about Islam is that it plays heavily upon dualities (It did borrow quite a few things from an earlier Persian faith...)

In that sense Islam tends to be ULTRA-INCLUSIVE. I havent read any other scripture like the Quran. Most books actually lay the line down by saying this is permissible, that isn`t...

For example, the Quran will say an eye for an eye is permissable but its better for us if we forgive. This satisfies both the moderate and the extremist and also makes both their opinions theologically correct.

Thus Islam is like the circle IN WHICH are found the yin and yan (or moderates and extremists)...

While this ultra-inclusiveness may reflect the wisdom of the creator, some suggest (like I) that those who are moderate are more intuned with the spirit vs letter duality.

Anyways I do not see any type of resurgance on the part of moderate Islam. I doubt it will happen in my lifetime, and personally I hope it doesnt. I hope humanity rises to a level where people become indifferent to one anothers opinions on an ineffable reality. That they join together to improve the human condition while putting race, religion etc on the back burner...

PS: While extremists are generally idiots, these days they make much more sense than the tyrannical waste of space that is America.

One more thing...

To the Moderates: KNOW and ACCEPT that extremists will ALWAYS be there, you will never root them out AND they are a fundamental part of Islam...

Fundamentalism is a movement which can be percieved as both good and bad. (Had the west african slaves listened to a preacher calling for war each friday, perhaps slavery would have ended sooner?)

These days its not the closet intellectual Im feeling, its the dirt poor, illiterate idiot on the street who`s burning an AmeriKKKan flag.

So called moderates have been too busy trying to gain the acceptance of the west...

-look at them on tv ``yessir I fully disagree with terrorism.`` Who`s gonna keep it real and tell them they BROUGHT THIS UPON THEMSELVES?-

So called moderates have not voiced their concerns on REAL terrorism. So called moderates should study American foriegn policy and the millions it has killed from S. America to S. Asia.

Maybe then there`d be less coolie SLAVES begging the west for forgiveness and more Malcolm X`s telling the white man the truth to his face.

I wonder if Tahmed would consider Ali Ahmed Minai to be a Hindu bigot.

Very good. Very impressive Mr. Minai. A detailed note will follow later but in this post I wanted to throw some light on Daniel Pipes, a name that Mr. Minai has mentioned in his article. I have been hearing several interviews and comments of Mr. Pipes on ABC lately. He seems to be a great proponent of turning the course of events into a new Cold War between too ideologies/civilizations. Please check his website and add to Mr. Minai`s thread.

http://www.danielpipes.org/

Ali Minai:

Beautiful!

I concur with your arguments; but I must point out, that each reader, will interpret this article, based on his leanings.

I guess one should thank Allah Taala for gifting the mankind with this tool, commonly known as, ``mind.`` :)

Ali Minai wrote:

``A liberal humanist Muslim can find
enough in the Islamic texts to justify a peaceful view of Islam --- and this is being done with great fervor these days``

Ali Sahib, I sure hope so (about the above) but remain in doubt. Many of our people have almost lost the ability to be reasonable about religion
and practice almost a fascist approach instead.
In this regard, they were certainly assisted by American foreign policy for a number of years.
In the case of Pakistan, many of these religious
fanatics care very little for the country, being that they have become a part of the Umma, and do not need the country concept anymore. And not only that but they frown on dissent and individual creativity (poetry and music etc.).
Pakistan was founded by liberal Muslims and the concept of religion forwarded by Sir Syed. Unfortunately I have to admit that as of today
some of our people (both here in the USA and in
in Pakistan) have lost their marbles.

Ras

Ras Sidd:

Excuse my intrusion here - I think you took a wrong statement from Ali Minai`s[Very Poetic Name reminds me of: Yeh, Gum`bad`ae` Min`ai]article to support your argument.

Many moderates, are hesitant to take that peaceful aspect into consideration, for various reasons. One maybe: they do not practice those peaceful teachings. Now, if they do not practice, then it`s pretty damn hard to talk about that aspect genuinely, with one`s heart and soul. I think as we become alert of our surroundings, we do learn to read genuine people for their genuinenss ;provided we have earned something in life.

Another example will be: poetry recitations or qawwali sessions. Many times, the qawwali sessions involve religious fervor, and that gives a strength of expression to the qawwal. It`s not yelling; it`s bringing out one`s heartfelt emotions that can bring tears to the listeners` eyes and move their heart. How? Why? Because the qawwal is singing, keeping his inside, in front of him.

I believe, if you truly believe[practice alongwith the belief] in something, you can have immense power of convincing. For the sake of brevity, I would like to stick to the positive impact of that power.

In other words, there are so many things told in the holy book to look into, that unless we do not look into them personally, we cannot go and preach them.

Ironically, the real moderates(sarcasm intended)are not able to think outside of their rigid box(mind). They forget the concept of community and the shape of that community. Another example will be: I can be a lunatic, living in my own quarters, and as long as my lunacy exists with me, that`s fine. But when I go outside, with that ``virus,`` I can have a drastic impact on my surroundings. Realizing the power of that impact is the key. That realization comes with the sense of responsibility; and, I think, that`s what the writer is calling for.

Dear Minai Sahib,

This is an excellent piece, and expresses so well what most people in the world feel today. If what you say were somehow to come true, it would herald a new era of peace and understanding in the world.

-narain

Nothing has changed, the big plop in the ocean was covered up a few seconds after the meteor fell.

A great job, ali. You play the critical role of what Bilal Ahmed would call an ``organic`` change agent - a change agent from within. One need not be reminded that such people face enormous challenges when they try to put their ideas into practice.

An elementary cost-benefit analysis will show that it is far easier for a rational person to give in to prevailing dogmas than to resist them. But then mankind has always needed relatively fewer change agents. That is what makes them blessed, and sets them apart from the rest.

As for the good or bad interpretations of religion, here is a hypothesis that may well be a law:

Unless challenged by good people, bad religion will always drive out good religion over time.

re: MaheshG # 6

Hey Mahesh, what`s your beef against tahmed?

Mr. Minai:

excellent! To Ijtehad, add, Ijma and Shura.

Moderates, fundamentalists, etc are completely unhelpful terms. If Islam is misunderstood in the West, allow me to say that it is also misunderstood within Islamia itself.

Islam offers a universe of intellectual, spiritual, psychological and emotional tapestry and experience. To access it, a Muslim or non-Muslim, must first be armed with education.

Mr. Minia, Western or anybody else`s perception of Islam is not the problem; It is the ignorance of Islam(s) by the majority of persons who call themselves, Muslims, that is the biggest problem for Islam.

Read!, Recite!, yet a majority of Muslims cannot, not by chance, but by design. For the fear is that they may have doubt (Shob). But faith cannot exist without Shob; it is part of what defines faith and is an element of the mystery of that expanding and contracting experience. To love requires discipline and practice. Let those that bear the scares, cuts, smiles and satisfaction, testify to the mystery, the extacy of the creature`s need of his/her Creator.

Not to worry, Allah does not abandon his creation, in such times we should be mindful that even now Allah is carrying us in the palm of his hand, and we do shower in His Mercy and His Compassion, because he crafted us to animate his love. If I may, I would invite all to shun despondency and fear, to remember that the cords of Faith and Love entwine to form the essence of Hope, even as Reason and Liberty are foundations supporting the moral choices of Muslims.

It seems to be that the muslim world is getting ready for a renessaiance. It would be interesting to compare the state of medievial europe to the state of the Islamic world today to identify potential similarities and crucial differences between the two.

-narain

``Those who lament the fact that Islam today wears the face of militancy in

the eyes of the world should keep this in mind: When those who are moderate do not speak as loudly as the militants, the militants speak for them too. The only way to reclaim the enlightened aspect of Islam is to pursue it aggressively. Call it extremism in the pursuit of moderation. And that is no vice.``

We`ve seen the angry responses Pakistanis have given their fellow Muslims SameerJB and hamidm each time the latter have attempted to do this. Do you really think this is possible?

Soysauce

I am deeply disappointed by your post. Koran must be read with at least the following tools:

A analysis of the literary and lingusitic aspect

A awareness and anlysis of the historical context

a analysis of meaning using text and hadith.

Afterall, if a person was to read any religious text without these tools, what might be their impression? And indeed, what can we assume of the depth of their commitment to be educated about the subject? What can we tell about their intentions?

Anyway, reading a little or a lot, it is a beginning. We have see many verses taken out of context or mistranslated, to malign the Koran and the message of Islam and Muslims. These succeed only till someone comes around and puts then in context and a more appropriate translation.

Ali Ahmed:

You are the first one on Chowk who has put it so plainly- the path to be followed. I agree with you whole heartedly. But it is easier written than done. Anyway your intentions for the Muslim community cannot be faulted with. If you are going to interact actively, be ready to face some pan-chewing jihadis at chowk. They don`t have a gun, but they have internet; they know english. There are women too.

some nice lines from ur article(very similar to what I have writing on chowk since sept. 11th):

1. ``When those who are moderate do not speak as loudly as the militants, the militants speak for them too.``

2. ``Strictly speaking, it is no more correct to say that Islam is peaceful than to proclaim that it is violent.``

3.``It is time for a vocal and successful reformist movement within Islam.``

4. ``The swamp that must be drained is not

in the mountains of Afghanistan, but in the minds of hundreds of millions of Muslims. It is time for a new synthesis in Islam.``

5. ``All Muslims believe that the words of the Qur`an are eternal, but that is no excuse to freeze the process of their interpretation. If the words are to provide guidance in an ever-changing world, they must speak in ever-changing

ways.``

Sameer:

You are not a Pakistani, are you? I mean you are asking Pakistanis to take a few lessons from the Hindu culture! Man..it`s so heartening to know that ur identity is hidden by technology; else you would have been banished into

the dungeons of hell. You ought to have been a sufi with a tanpura singing bhajans and qawwalis. Carry on.....

Comment: Just as Al Jazeera was doing good job on parity with CNN.Bush wants natinal channels in USA to discontinue featuring it.Isnt that hypocrtical of America ,the so called land of Freedom ,which it wants to teach us charging arm & leg as tuition.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/archive.htm

AL JAZEERA LESSON FOR DD New Delhi, Oct. 9: Al Jazeera, the Qatari television channel whose exclusive footage from Kabul and Kandahar — mostly fuzzy images of streaking lights probably photographed by unmanned cameras and a scoop on Osama bin Laden’s reaction to the airstrikes — are being beamed by international networks, is a lesson for state-owned networks like Doordarshan. But while competition has given al Jazeera a cutting edge, it has also flirted with controversial subjects that have often threatened to inflame passions in the Arab world. Qatar, a monarchy, has its own state-run television station but al Jazeera, which was founded by the Emir, Sheikh Hamad Bin Khalifa al Thani, by a 1996 decree after he ousted his father, runs like a private company. Al Jazeera’s government subsidies run out in November. In preparation for the time when it will have to survive without state support, the channel has staffed its middle rung with trained personnel from BBC and Voice of America. Almost its entire coverage is being carried out by these skilled journalists. The pictures of the bombing of Kabul and Kandahar and the footage of bin Laden is the latest of the channel’s scoops. Al Jazeera has run into trouble often with most Arab governments barring Lebanon, Libya and Syria over interviews of leaders of banned organisations. Surprisingly, when CNN or BBC telecast such interviews in English they have proved to be less controversial. A report in the Mid East Times newspaper says the Qatari government has received complaints from every Arab government. “Our audiences are unused to having these kinds of things said in Arabic,” the paper quoted Video Cairo managing director Muhammad Gohar as saying. “They’ll listen to it on CNN, but when you put it in Arabic, that’s something else.” The frequent complaints against al Jazeera — even this afternoon the BBC reported from Oman that its telecast was provocative for many locals — is one of the reasons why many international networks have chosen to use its pictures but not its voice-overs.

If any of this information is not correct, please go back and change it using the back button. If you are satisfied with it please click here

A brilliant article ........

I completely agree with the author when he says that ``the interpretation of Islam can no longer be left to the most regressive segment of Muslim society.``

We as Muslims need to come together and educate others that one can be a good muslim and have respect for other religions and human life at the same time.

Religion can be used as a powerful tool to grow extremely productively in countries where injustice and poverty prevails. Though it is unfair to force it down anybody`s throat.

Re soysauce # 2

If Islam seemed as hideous or revolting to a common person then it would not have been the fastest growing religion in the world.

Minai Sahib:

You are on the right track. I particularly liked the part where you say that every political issue is turned into a millenial confrontation between Islam and others. Kashmir, Palestine etc. are all political issues. Let us treat them as such, and try to resolve them as best we can - but without bloodshed and calls for jihad.

You write: ``When those who are moderate do not speak as loudly as the militants, the militants speak for them too. `` Right.

Islam has been hijacked by the jihadis, and the way to put it back on track is simple: Separate politics from religion, and separate tradition from religion. What you have left is a code of conduct for the individual. The mullahs attempt to become the economist, the jurist, the lawmaker and the khalifah by hijacking Islam is over.

Frankly, this article is tripe. Not because I disagree with the author`s words condemning the extremists or the moderates lack of a spine (mea culpa), but because I disagree with the author`s basic premise that Islam has any relevance to the modern world. Now, don`t get me wrong here. I`m not condemning just Islam. I wish to condemn ALL religions to the same trash heap. To seriously think that the words of a 7th century trader or a 1st century carpenter have any real relevance to the life of a 21st century person is to be delusional to the point of dysfunctionality. To ask yourself ``WWJD?`` is much a sign of terminal stupidity as to pore over the hadiths of Bukhari to ask yourself what did the Prophet do about X, Y or Z.

I would make one broad exception to this categorization. If it puts your mind at ease to do such things, go right ahead. If it makes you a better human being by stopping you from acting selfishly or cruelly, then it has actually served a useful purpose. If you seriously want to structure a society by asking these questions, which people like Jerry Falwell or Mullah Omar do, then you are as much a sociopath as Pol Pot or Mao Zedong and the sooner we are rid of you, the better. Its only when we Muslims learn to get rid of Islam that we will ever be able to join the modern world.

Interesting article, but then, why make religion such an issue anyway?

we`d all be doing ourselves a favor by keeping religion where it belongs, in our homes, hearts, and places of worship. let`s get it out of the streets. THAT is the reform we need.

The last thing that we need is a Muslim Martin Luther preaching a reformed version of Islam. There is no limit to the different versions of religion that everyone follows according to their respective lives and upbringings. There are bound to be disagreements and conflicts. There are always going to be extremists.

Whether you are a moderate or a fundamentalist, wearing your religion on your sleeve is a recipe for disaster. Why do we need to explain our religion or faith to anyone? Why can`t we just keep our beliefs sacred and pure within our hearts and souls?

In that sense, I think Buddhists and Hindus set a good example. They follow their religion but don`t make a show of it, it`s not glamourized or preached extensively. They don`t need to `explain themselves` to anyone. Maybe it`s because they are a minority, but some of the best lessons to be learnt of tolerance are from minorities, especially religious minorities.

Organized religion, trying to turn religion into a political movement, has brought nothing but destruction and hatred in this world. Unfortunately, Muslims are the last people to learn this lesson. And judging by the way things are going, it will be learnt the hard way and with the loss of lives.

To those who believe in God, let`s stick to making God our religion, not religion our God. Let`s keep our relationship to God personal and direct.

Our clergymen, priests, rabbis and maulvis won`t die with us, we will die alone.

re: Fuzair # 23

Since you have spoken of all organized religions, let me agree with you wholeheartedly.

When the religion of X becomes dependent on the opinion of Y, we have a human tragedy. When the religion of large groups of people becomes dependent on the opinions of another small group of elites, we have a human calamity.

Re: Fuzair

``I wish to condemn ALL religions to the same trash heap.``

Right on! Organized religion has been a curse on mankind since it was invented. Maybe 500 years from now people will have realized it and banished it into oblivion. The world`s problems will be solved through education (science, math, art), rationality, and economic prosperity...not belief in fairy tales.

CHANGE FOR THE WORSE,

You say that many americans feel that things have changed, and my fear is that the change is for the worse. People heard of islam after the WTC, then if they go and read the book, the impression they get will be totally un-islamic. Some of the verses in the book can be directly linked to the WTC, and the conclusions could be damaging.

The most severe attack on islam is the award of nobel prize to NAIPAUL. He has written some really nasty things about islam, and his writings will be companion reading to koran in a WTC background. The damage that causes will be a lot more than flying planes into buildings.

At last a third rate writer gets the award, thanks to terrorism, and the stolkhome committee sitting on the legacy of TNT ( tri-nitro -tolueine) had to point to another TNT springing from islam.

hobbyty,

1.3 billion+ people practising islam in the whole wide world, atleast majority of them can`t go wrong in the way quran is interpreted and being practised. it doesn`t take a whole lot to understand that no one book is adequate however holy it may be. Tell me where muslims are majority (56 +countries) allow the non-muslims to freely practise their beliefs. I can think of 4 to 5 countries that`re moderate, even in those countries majority are becoming increasingly violent against non-muslims.

pakistan was part of india, and muslims carved out a land for themselves, how much of non-muslims make up pakistan`s population, 1% hindus, .5% christians. doesn`t that clearly show how tolerant islam and the muslims are.

prophet might have preached whatever he did, to unite people for some good cause, it might have been relevant then, its the muslims who can think and make it relevant to today/future`s context. faith is the one no one can question, everyone has a right to believe in whatever one chose to.

since the muslims are large in number, no doubt they can cause lot of trouble to everyone in their country or anywhere else, but there are other belivers in larger number who would like to see a change in islam and its followers and it can only happen if significant majority chose to.

Scout & Saxena,

Look, look! I knew there had to be some thoughts that you two could share! :)

``If Islam seemed as hideous or revolting to a common person then it would not have been the fastest growing religion in the world.``

When you are Ignorant and poor, all you do is breed. Islam is the fasted growing religion because of lack of family planning, NOT conversions.

Hats off to Ali Minai. The article is extremely well written and deserves a much larger audience; it is better than almost anything I have seen on the subject.

#23 Fuzair, in a dismissive fit, trashes it as tripe and dispatches all religions to the dustbin. I think there is a core of human values that are reflected in most religions that is valuable (love, spiritual awareness, service, sanctity of life) and this can peacebly coexist with secular institutions and movements. What must be uprooted is the childish insistence on the superiority of ones belief system (say based on religion, race etc.)and the ethnocentrism and hostility towards others it engenders.

What I find remarkable is the degree of sympathy espoused for OBL/Taliban by english speaking, presumably upper class, Pakistanis on CNN/BBC. If they are in any way representative it is clear that most Pakistanis do not support action against OBL and Taliban. To neutral observers the islamist ideology is anachronistic and is succeeding in drowning out the more reasonable voices of moderation in muslim communities.

Warpster

Here is a quote from a sponsored ad in NYT:

Today, terrorism is a global social concern. As a long- term remedy, we need to educate the entire population of the world to:



•Value life itself more than religion, race or culture.

•Live the human values of friendliness, compassion, cooperation and a sense of belonging to all people.

•Honor diversity and appreciate all religious and cultural traditions, for the world will not be safe if even a small pocket of people is left ignorant or fanatical.

•Adopt practical methods to release stress and tension in life; stress is the root cause of all conflict and violence.

•Have confidence that we can achieve change through peaceful and non-violent means.

Force is inevitable to suppress terrorism in the short term; spirituality alone can root out destructive tendencies.

Know God is with us all,

Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

http://www.artofliving.org

Re: fuzair

It is ironic that the Desi vacillation between extremes is alive and well..... We are either an anglophile or an anglophobe..... a fundamentalist a an anti-religionist - the same intolerant fervor - for as the fundamentalist will butcher those who donot follow his cause - so will the anti-religionist..

The Pakistani wants freedom for Kashmir while killing more Muslims in Bengal, Sind, and Baluchistan to keep its hegemony....

The INdian wants to give the Kashmiris democracy by butchering and raping them....without giving them the right to decide.....

Is this the extent of hyprocrisy - that the Western immigrant ( Pakistani) - who depends on the genorosity and the largess of the West - uses this as a platform to prevent the Afghans who are fleeing misery in the homeland the security in filthy refugee camps....and then the establishment in Pakistan fleecing Afghan aid dollars for personal profiteering....

Its the season to blame religion - such is the prevailing wind......Maybe the Mother Teresas and
the Edhis must be agnostic.......

Yes it is the enligtened Muslim who prays to Allah 5 times a day - who says Islam is not blame - yet would not be caught dead sending his children to a seminary for the cause of Allah.....

So the guardians of religon come from the orphanages - poor , destitute and unwanted......

Yep it must be religion that caused Benazir to espouse Sindhi Nationalism while practising serfdom in her lands...

And yep it must have been Islam that Tikka Khan and Jehanzeb Arbab and host of others that raped and pillaged fellow Muslims in Bengal.....

And Yes it was their co-religionists - the Mullahs and the liberal elites that looked the other way......rather than bringing them to justice...

It must have been the love of secularism that - Indians practise democracy and untouchability without a blink......

Perhaps ``rational self interset`` reigns supreme - IN Pakistan I need a beard to move up - IN the US I need a can of heinekan.....

Regardless of your choice..... the difference between the first world and the third world is as clear as night and day.....

Pluerality, Tolerance, equity and fairness stem from Social conditioning - whether it has a basis in religon or the nation state....

And for so many who have lived here so long and yet behave like neaderthals - what do I say.....

Syed Ahmed
Is it Islam to drag India into a discussion of Islam?

ram-rahim,

its not just the lack of family planning, its also, by effectively suppressing other religion.

people are left with no choice but to follow what was forced on.

for any change in society women`s role is very important, they play directly or indirectly a vital role, by denying them the even basic rights and identity, effectively contained any change.

Re: Ram_Rahim

Judging form your infected name, I gather you are from India

``When you are Ignorant and poor, all you do is breed. Islam is the fasted growing religion because of lack of family planning, NOT conversions.``

Much obliged to have your much thought-out insights on life. This much explains why there are 1.14 billion Indians in the world.

Aisha

Scout 24.

Bravo!

Aisha

Reply Drumz # 4

“Maybe then there`d be less coolie SLAVES begging the west for forgiveness and more Malcolm X`s telling the white man the truth to his face.”

Hurrah! He’s back and tactful as ever. Good to “see” you on chowk again Drumz. Howzit?

Reply RSaxena #: 18

[``Those who lament the fact that Islam today wears the face of militancy in the eyes of the world should keep this in mind: When those who are moderate do not speak as loudly as the militants, the militants speak for them too. The only way to reclaim the enlightened aspect of Islam is to pursue it aggressively. Call it extremism in the pursuit of moderation. And that is no vice.``

“We`ve seen the angry responses Pakistanis have given their fellow Muslims SameerJB and hamidm each time the latter have attempted to do this. Do you really think this is possible?”]

Cyberspace is a good place to start.

Reply Fuzair # 23

“Frankly, this article is tripe. Not because I disagree with the author`s words condemning the extremists or the moderates lack of a spine (mea culpa), but because I disagree with the author`s basic premise that Islam has any relevance to the modern world.”

Politics is the art of the possible. What’s a realistic position to take which will contribute to enough people taking concrete steps towards a better world?

Reply Eklavya # 30

“Look, look! I knew there had to be some thoughts that you two could share! :)”

Funny, I had always imagined the subcontinental cupid to be from the South (one Mr Cupidanathan).

Ram-Rahim

``When you are Ignorant and poor, all you do is breed. Islam is the fasted growing religion because of lack of family planning, NOT conversions``.

Whereas you the product of an enlightened education? Someone say Hindutva?

A thoughtful, even-handed article. Much appreciated!

I think the problem with Muslims is as a Pakistani intellectual says is that Muslims try to be `PUBLIC MUSLIMS` and not `PRIVATE MUSLIMS`. The Muslims try very publicly to outdo others when trying to show their Islamic credentials. They try to shout `Jehad` most loudly, try to inform the whole world that they have performed `haj` by mentioning the fact in front of their names and name plates at home, try to get the mark on the forehead which shows that they have been performing the prayers very regularly etc.

It is time to remember what Bulle Shah or was it Paltu said `mathe ghis gaye par bane nahi namazi`.

( by rubbing foreheads and getting a mark on the forehead does not make a true believer)

Scout # 24

“Interesting article, but then, why make religion such an issue anyway?”

don’t you see a MASSIVE inconsistency in what you’re saying?! The creation of pakistan, the jihad in kashmir – causes I believe you support – hardly areas where religion has not been made an issue!

I don’t think you’re even aware of the glaring hypocrisy.

nice sermon ali. when do you come in from ohio to lead the silent majority on the streets against the extremist minority. reading your article reminded me of the terrorism ``experts`` on cnn pontificating about terrorists. what does it take to become a terrorism expert? reading a few books and then regurgitating what you read?

Anyhow let me know when you land, so I can pick you up!

shakir

re: minai, scout

It is a good article. The `moderates` should have the courage to speak out. But speaking out does not mean to compete with the fundamentalists on the interpertation of Quran, the meaning of this or that. This war cannot be won. The need to speak out means to tell these religious leaders to keep off the political scene ( as scout 24) says. There should be no mixing of religion with the State whether in governance, education, justice etc. Religion should be individuals private affair and a facilitator for one to relate with ones God, whatever form that may take. That is the only way forward.

Re: Jay, #27

You make an excellent point, especially about Naipaul. That award is a very not-so-subtle commentary on Islam by the West.

Scout,

I hope you now know why I asked you about terrorism in Kashmir.

This is the right place for this post to be.

As Veeresh said this article is just a plop in the ocean. The ripple will hardly last a day.

The so called Muslim moderates will nod their heads, pat each others backs, feel good about themselves then go back to lecturing the ``Hindu bigots`` on how peaceful Islam is.

While the jehadis hijack their religion and wage jehad against the infidels.

Ali Minai has commented that Daniel Pipes is ``unfriendly`` to Islam. Having no idea that such a person existed, I checked out his website.

I could grant that he is perceived to be ``unfriendly`` but a careful reading of the articles on his site indicates that he makes a clear separation between Islam as a religion/social movement and Islamism as a 20th century ideology that often attracts highly educated muslims. It is the latter (Islamism) to which he is strenously opposed. He has also remarked that in countries such as Egypt and Turkey there is a vigorous debated between the moderates and islamists but that this is mostly missing among muslims in the USA (where the discourse has been taken over by islamists, as maybe, in pakistan).

http://www.danielpipes.org/talks/19980630.shtml

is an example where he makes the distinction

He makes a persuasive case that islamism is no less threatening to westerners than nazism or marxism-leninism.

Whether organizations such as the CAIR are dominated by islamist ideologues is another matter. He provides evidence to suggest that they are and cites someone who claims that 80% of mosques in the US are run by islamists.

#32 Syed Ahmed

Chill out man, You could do with that Heineken 6-pack that will ensure you success in the afterlife or was it the USA? Or maybe you came up with this after downing a 6-pack :-)

Your ramblings do not a coherent position make.

These are some interesting observations on how clinging to limited to limited identifications and forgetting our common humanity leads to avoidable conflicts

http://www.artofliving.org/OneGodPart1.pdf

Dear Mr. Minai:

``When those who are moderate do not speak as loudly as the militants, the militants speak for them too``

True indeed.

But it`s also TRUE -- that some in the West have selective hearing defect -- only hear the high pitch notes of Islamic militancy -- not the low pitch music that moderate Muslims make.

Any US agency that wants to monitor Muslim public opinion -- can come to Chowk -- and find any time of the day or night -- that here on Chowk -- there are -- many more -- moderate -- Muslim Town Criers -- than the wolves, and wolverines -- of Islamic extremism -- howling in the wilderness on the edge of civilized habitat

Re: Fuzair

I am equally amazed how religions egg their followers to believe in all sorts of tripe (Catholics in Immaculate Conception, Hindus in Elephant- or Monkey-headed gods who can fly, Islam in...and so on...). If these fantastic creations of the mind give some solace, then so be it. That it blinds the mind to rationality is almost never considered. Many of these devotees who accept `miracles` as an article of their faith almost never question that their faith was never a matter of choice for them -- it was purely a biological stochastic process that determined which religion their parents happen to believe in. Did any of the strong propenents of any religious faith seriously look at other faiths before `choosing` them, and going on to evangelize them? Did Hobbyty ever seriously give Christainity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Taoism (am I leaving out any?) a chance? (Hobbyty, I am not picking on you, but you are indeed a committed religious person and have a thinking mind). I am sure that individuals pay a lot more attention when selecting used cars than they do in selecting religion.

The one thing that the West has figured out correctly is to keep religion confined to private life -- that is why even a highly `provocative` idea like bilogical evolution, that undermines the very basis of the Bible -- the Book of Genesis, is allowed to flourish and challenge religious dogma. Even then there are fundamentalist Christians who still study evolution with the ultimate aim of discrediting it. But, they are not allowed to prevent the widespread disemmination of its ideas. How many cultures would honor a person like Charles Darwin was with a ceremonial burial in Westminster Abbey -- the irony could not be more extreme -- recognizing a genius by according him a permanent resting place in the very institution that was (unintentionally) undermined by his work!

Always controversial and thought-provoking: VS Naipaul--an interview:

A wasteful Taj, an unthinking Gandhi, an unexcellent India…``Fractured past`` is too polite a way to describe India`s calamitous millennium (1000AD-2000AD). The millennium began with the Muslim invasions and the grinding down of the Hindu-Buddhist culture of the north…

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fname=naipaul&fodname=19991115&sid=1

Godot,

That may be reading too much into the award (I think). Naipaul has been an offensive person, period. It seems someone asked him why Hindu women wear bindi, and he quipped that it was supposed to mean that there was nothing inside their heads (wonder what he would have said about us Hindu men :)). He has also not spared the British, making some choice comments about the plebian Mr. Blair and such national icons as Charles Dickens. Very offensive but uniquely brilliant.

Zafar bhai,

Just trying to bring some peace and chaman to Chowk :)

Dear Readers:

You have been occupied lately in some serious and grim discuusions of the current affairs. I`m sure some of you can take time out and indulge in some light and entertaining reading. I`m attaching a fictional telephone conversation between the two great leaders of our familial countries - America and Pakistan. This piece is from `The Friday Times` of October 12, 2001. This may provide you an opportunity for some light banter and cheer up, which many of us badly need under the present circumstances. So go ahead and enjoy.

______________________________________________

Bush & Mush









Bush: Hello? Is that General Rajiv Gandhi?

Mush: Err, no. I think you`ve got the wrong number.

Bush: Are you the leader of the Pakistinians?

Mush: That`s right.

Bush: Isn`t Pakistan in India?

Mush: CERTAINLY NOT!

Bush: Ahm sorry. These jerks in mah office need to brief me much better than

they do.

Mush: How can I help you?

Bush: Ah was just calling to find out what happened to our secret proposal to

the Taliban.

Mush: What secret proposal?

Bush: You know, the one in which we proposed to the Taliban that they should

exchange Osama bin Laden for the heroine of the “Titanic”.

Mush: Oh that one! Yes, yes, I know all about that. Sorry to disappoint you, but

their answer is that they don`t want the heroine of “Titanic”.

Bush: Why naat, for Chrissake?

Mush: The Taliban are saying they already have heroin but might consider

your offer if the hero of “Titanic” is available.

Bush: Drat! They`re such a nuisance, these Taliban. You know, general, ah

really do fear for Pakistan`s security too. Ah hope you`ve got plans on the

ground to deal with any terrorist reactions you may have for standing with the

international coalition against terrorism.

Mush: Certainly. May I say that my government in anticipation of a terrorist

reaction to the US attacks on Afghanistan has readied plans to activate the

extreme contingency plan of banning pillion riding.

Bush: Gee whizz! (Aside) Didya hear that, guys! Tell the FBI I`m banning pillion

riding in the US as of NOW! Err, general, pillion riding on camels, horses and

elephants, right?

Mush: No, Mr President, on cruise missiles.

Bush: Cruise missiles? CRUISE MISSILES?! YOU MEAN T`SAY PAKISTINIANS

ARE GOIN’ AROUND RIDIN’ CRUISE MISSILES?! HOLY COW!

Mush: I TOLD YOU, WE’RE NOT INDIAN! We don`t worship the cow in

Pakistan.

Bush: Say whaat?

Mush: Never mind.

Bush: Another thing, general. Ahm worried about mah ground troops in

Afghanistan. Ah hear the place is infested with poisonous snakes.

Mush: Certainly. But what`s your point?

Bush: I just wanted to know from you if poisonous snakes are really

venomous....

GO TOP

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....... this time it took over fifty hours to get from islamabad to ny; i think i got gypped once again by the pia staff who collected a 600 rupee airport tax for a seat with a broken foot-rest; the immigration and customs officers were sheepish and apologetic as they went through ths silly motions of ``checking`` my luggage and welcoming me back ``home``....

....... i was there when the bombing started and did not see or meet any ``moderate`` muslims who thought the taliban were at fault ....actually, there seems to be a perverse admiration for these savages even amongst those who are appalled by their version of a joyless islam ........ sure there are some who are ``saddened`` by the loss of civilian lives on sept 11 but can barely hide their glee that america is finally being punished by allah who had been asleep at the job till he was prodded into action by al-qaeda....... rukhsana the pathan servant girl, a cousin who was recently given another star to put on his ghq-issued corolla, and gulzar sahib the bank manager are all convinced that the wtc bombing was the work of israeli yahudis ........ maristrate uncle from peshawar is convinced that the afghan refugees are responsible for the rising crime rate and drug addiction .... they are also responsible for the long hot summer as they continue to light their fires to cook the cow-stomachs and entrails discarded by butchers and ignored by stray dogs ....

.......the stray dogs are angry at the afghan children who beat them to the garbage dumps - by six thirty in the morning all the paper and cloth and metal has been picked up by the four, five and six year old`s who don`t pay any attention to the dogs or the sahibs on nikes who jog past them oblivious to the stench of human misery .......

......... i handed five hundred rupees to a five-six year old afghan girl with ruddy red cheeks and a load of steaming cow-dung on her head ..... she took it with without a smile or word, her sad eyes betraying no feeling ....... my daughter is still in bed - it is not right for a six year old to be up at six with cow-dung in her hair .........

........ so i went to the local masjid for asar prayers just to hear what the believers have to say - and i was not disappointed ....... the mullah, with his flowing prophet-like beard and arab robes, ranted and raved against the americans, general musharraf and the yahudis ..... he threatened to wage jihad and march on the abandoned parliament house a few miles away if the americans attacked our ``brothers`` in afghanistan .......the nimazis listened attentively and on their way out threw down a few rupees to the afghan children .......... i have had my fill of god and mosques and mullahs who want us to wage jihad ........ i think tonight i will have get drunk - it just didn`t seem right having a drink in pakistan ...............

Re: Shammi #54

Are you an atheist?

hamdim,

Welcome.

Sarwar,

Every religion I know of shares two characteristics:

1. it has, at some point or the other, described women as evil.

2. it has told women that it gives them greater freedom and rights than they will get anywhere else.

That women swallow that is related to the relentless socialization that is the fate of us all. I don`t think Islam is unique in that regard (at least the non-Taliban type of Islam).

Re Eklavya

You can blame Naipaul for his harsh words, perhaps an offensive personality, but you can`t take away the fact that he is truly a writer of the highest sort. He not only writes from the gut and tells it like he sees it, but he also gives a true outsider`s perspective. How much more an outsider can you be than an athiest who was Indian from a Hindu setting in a Caribean Island who moved to Christian England and then travels the world. In a very dismal one month period, the news of him winning the Nobel was truly a bright moment, something for me to celebrate.

Rdesikan,

Yup, that is true. He is a fabulous writer. Were it not for his prickly personality and controversial views, he would have, IMO, won the prize long ago.

``Friday Fear``.

I have always heard that prayer is to a man`s turbulent mind what water is to fire.

Prayer is supposed to bring tranquility, peace. It is supposed to calm down the waves of anger, discontent that simmer in one`s heart. Prayer is the language in which you communicate to God. After coming out of a temple or a church, I have

seen people silent,smiling; slowly making their way out to their parked vehicles;talking in low muffled voices. The calmness and the serenity of places of worship commune with our minds to create an environment of peace all around it.

It is also not surprising then that more people wait for alms at such places than anywhere else.

BUT in today`s Islam, the friday prayer is anything but all that we know about prayer. Come friday and security in front of all mosques is beefed up. Friday has become the best day to indulge in destruction,voilence and mayhem.

Thousands of people come out, not content or smiling, but seething with anger,gnashing their teeth for more jihad, more blood. Now if prayers do this to you, what recourse will you take to?

Across the world - people,tv channels, newpapers, politicians,generals,...and God, wait with baited breath, the coming of a friday. And when it finally comes, they say,``Oh No!It`s friday.`` (ONIF).



Pullu

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MaheshG, harish3,

Bringing up the creation of Pakistan and problems in Kashmir is not the issue here.

Speaking out against religious discrimination is necessary. I`m not a supporter of organized religion and I`m also not a supporter of organized oppression against a religious faction. As far as Kashmir is concerned, it`s their land. Pakistani Muslims and Hindu Indians shouldn`t exert their ideas onto them.

For people who question the existence of Pakistan, I question the existence of a free India. Indians were subjugated by the British Christians. If the creation of India due to this subjugation is kosher, so is the existence of Pakistan.

eklavya #30,

not really, he hates Islam and Muslims whereas I don`t hate Hinduism or any other religion.

by the way, don`t mention my name and his/her/whatever`s name in the same sentence.

so, how you doing? :)

Re: Chowk Readers

I thought many Chowk readers will enjoy reading the article below. It`s a piece of literature. Very well written.

``Two Tickets to Paradise`` by Peter Maass

PESHAWAR, Pakistan—Nawaf Alhazmi, one of the suspected Sept. 11 hijackers, left behind a letter that outlined last-minute things he should do and think about, such as not forgetting his passport and ensuring he was not being followed. The letter, according to the FBI, also included these lines: ``Keep a very open mind, keep a very open heart of what you are to face. You will be entering paradise. You will be entering the happiest life, everlasting life.``

It has become unfortunately common for suicide bombers to state, in eerie before-death videos that are released after an explosion kills dozens on an Israeli street, that they are looking forward to their fatal missions because they know they will reach paradise. That is questionable. The Quran forbids suicide and the killing of innocent people, so it`s more than likely that the 19 men who murdered more than 6,000 civilians last month will wake up in the last place they expected to be—hell.

But the question remains—why do Islamic suicide bombers believe they will go to paradise, and why are they so eager to go there? These questions are easy to explore in Peshawar, where it is hard to say a prayer without being overheard by a mullah. Peshawar, a conservative city in Muslim Pakistan, is near the Afghan border and gave birth to the Taliban`s ideas. Many Taliban leaders were trained at local madrasahs, or religious schools.

My exploration began by driving onto the manicured grounds of Peshawar University, which was built by the British during the days of the raj and still has a colonial feel. Students were playing cricket at dusk, and the campus atmosphere was more Oxford than Pakistan. I stopped at the white-washed residence of professor Qibla Ayaz, a leading Islamic scholar, and we were soon joined by professor Maraj ul Islam, whose expertise involves the interpretation of paradise.

Over tea and sweets, the Quranic discussion began. Paradise is explained quite vividly in suras (or chapters) 55 and 56 of the Quran, which note that those who enter paradise will enjoy ``abundant fruits, unforbidden, never-ending.`` There will be ``gushing fountains`` and everyone ``shall recline on jeweled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine.``

Wine? Islam forbids alcohol, but only in the earthly life. In paradise, alcohol is no problem at all. It is available not simply for the asking, but for the mere thinking. If you think you want a glass of wine, or anything at all, you shall have it. And that is not the only item forbidden in this life yet plentiful in paradise.``

Therein are bashful virgins whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before ... virgins as fair as corals and rubies,`` states sura 55. A few lines later, we are reminded of ``virgins chaste and fair ... they shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets.``

When I asked professor ul Islam, who has a doctorate from Leeds University, what the usefulness of these virgins might be for a male resident of paradise, he patted my forearm in a friendly way and said, ``You will know when you get there.`` His laughter was abundant; I got the joke.

But why does Allah offer luxuries in paradise that are sinful on earth? Free sex, alcohol, bejeweled furniture—paradise would seem a strangely un-Islamic place.``

You are put to the test in this world,`` professor Ayaz explained. ``If you pass, there are no bans in the next world. It is free.`` He went on: ``What is the meaning of life? Is life a big house, a good job, a comfortable bank balance? Muslims who believe in their faith are not trying to have a comfortable life here. They are trying to please Allah.`` An eternally comfortable life will come in paradise, which is the payoff for the hard times required by Allah on this side of the great divide.

Professor Ayaz raised, without prompting, the question of a typical suicide bomber.``What is the force that leads him to this act, leaving his family and friends? It is because he is convinced he is going to paradise.``Professor Ayaz does not believe suicide bombers, such as those responsible for the attacks in New York and Washington, will wake up in a roomful of virgins. Because those men committed suicide and killed innocents, they are going to hell. Professor ul Islam agreed but downplayed paradise as a motivating factor. He noted the presence in our world of suicide attackers who aren`t paradise-besotted Muslims—the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, as well as the fanatics who shoot up post offices or fast-food restaurants in the United States. ``They don`t do it for wine,`` professor ul Islam said. That`s certainly true, but the allure of paradise cannot be ignored. If it`s not important, why would bombers mention it?

In search of more answers, I drove a few miles down the road from professor Ayaz`s house, which is surrounded by a tranquil garden, to another universe, filled with tumult, smog, poverty, laughter, and anger. This is the main bazaar of Peshawar, where beggars and peddlers and cars and donkeys are in a war of noises. I visited a mosque presided over by Movlana Fazle Ahad, a mullah who is also a leader of the Sipah-e-Sahaba, a political party that strongly supports the Taliban. The mullah sat on a rug in a sparse room of the mosque, which doubles as a madrasah, and explained the most important aspect of paradise.

``Jihad``—holy war—``is the way of Allah, fighting against people who are harming Muslims,`` he said. ``In the Quran, Allah says that jihad is the best way for entering paradise.`` There are many ways of doing a jihad, he noted, such as donating money to the cause, but the best method, he said, is to risk and lose your life in battle.``

The West is very materialistic, and people believe only in this world, with all its luxuries,`` Fazle Ahad continued. ``They have no faith in the next life. But my students are very aware and confident of the next life. Because they are my students, they know about the reward of paradise in a jihad. They are not afraid.``

Fazle Ahad noted the injunction against killing innocents and condemned the World Trade Center attacks as atrocities. But in his view, suicide bombing, if committed properly, is Islamic. For example, he believes the suicide bombers in Israel aim to kill soldiers and that civilian casualties are collateral damage of an unfortunate nature, but not paradise-nullifying.

``It is my hope that [the Palestinian bombers] are going to paradise because they are on a jihad, working for Allah,`` he said. ``They are defending Islam and Muslims, so they must go to paradise.``

Nearly 50 boys attend Fazle Ahad`s madrasah, all of them from Afghanistan, and a dozen of them were sitting outside the room where the mullah and I were meeting. They were studying the Quran, which is, typically, the only subject at madrasahs. No social studies, no foreign languages or current events, just the Quran, constantly. The mullah`s interpretation prevails.

Just as life is not easy for most people in Pakistan, one of the poorest countries in the world, life is not easy for Fazle Ahad`s students. They sleep on a hard floor in a room that is unheated in winter and without air conditioning in the summer. They have no contact with females. The food they eat is not in paradiselike proportions. There are no chubby students at the madrasah, and their clothes are a few threads from threadbare.

I sat down with the pupils. Atta Ullah, who is 19 and was born in a village near the Afghan city of Jalalabad, offered me what he believes to be the most important bit of information about paradise: ``It is for those who go on a jihad, and if they are killed, they will go to paradise.`` And what happens up there? ``Life in paradise is whatever you want it to be—you can have all the fruit you want, all the beautiful women you want. All of these things are available in paradise.``

Looking around the sparse mosque, and noticing a pile of cast-off bread that seemed likely to compose the midday meal, I could understand the attraction of paradise, and I feared the malleability of the students` minds. That evening, reading the Quran, I noticed, in sura 56, the following lines about Muslims who go to hell: ``They shall dwell amidst scorching winds and seething water, in the shade of pitch-black smoke.``

Re: RSaxena

No -- agnostic is probably closer

Scout, okay you speak against religious discrimination.

Please tell me then why do you support Kashmiri ``freedom fighting`` in the same breath.

Kashmiri ``freedom fighting`` is a blatant case of religious discrimination.

Kashmiri ``freedom fighting`` finds no support among Kashmiri Hindus, sikhs and Buddhists?

Kashmiri ``freedom fighting`` has purged the valley of Kashmiri Hindus.

Please tell me how you can harbor two contradictory views at the same time.

Re: shammi

``Re: RSaxena

No -- agnostic is probably closer``

Cool. Isn`t that just an euphemism for atheist? Just kidding.

``For people who question the existence of Pakistan, I question the existence of a free India. Indians were subjugated by the British Christians. If the creation of India due to this subjugation is kosher, so is the existence of Pakistan.``

I fail to see the parallel here.

If British Christians subjugated all Indians equally how does this explain the existence of Pakistan?

Scout,

``As far as Kashmir is concerned, it`s their land. Pakistani Muslims and Hindu Indians shouldn`t exert their ideas onto them. ``

When you refer to Kashmiris do you mean Kashmiri Muslims or all Kashmiris?

from Sir V.S.Naipaul:





....Persia had a great past; it had been the rival in classical times of Greece and Rome. But you wouldn`t have believed it in Iran in 1979; for the Iranians the glory and the truth had begun with the coming of Islam, Pakistan was a very new Muslim state. But the land was very old. In Pakistan were the ruins of the very old cities of Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa. Fabulous ruins, the discovery of which earlier this century had given a new idea of the history of the sub-continent. Not only pre-Islamic Ruins; but possibly also Pre-Hindu. There was an archaeological department, inherited from British days, which looked after the sites. But there was, especially with the growth of fundamentalism, a contrary current. This was expressed in a letter to a newspaper while I was there. The ruins of the cities, the writer said, should be hung with quotations from the Koran, saying that this was what befell unbelievers.

The faith abolished the past. And when the past was abolished like this, more than an idea of history suffered. Human behavior, and ideals of good behavior, could suffer. When I was in Pakistan, the newspapers were running articles to mark the anniversary of the Arab conquest of Sind. This was the first part of the Indian sub-continent to be conquered by the Arabs. It occurred at the beginning of the eighth century. The kingdom of Sind—an enormous area: the southern half of Afghanistan, the southern half of Pakistan—at that time was a Hindu-Buddhist kingdom. The brahmins didn`t really understand the outside world; the Buddhists didn`t believe in taking life. It was a kingdom waiting to be conquered, you might say. But it took a long time for Sind to be conquered; it was very far away from the Arab heartland, across immense deserts. Six or seven Arab expeditions foundered.

At one time the third caliph himself, the third successor to the Prophet, called one of his lieutenants and said, ``O Hakim, have you seen Hindustan and learnt all about it?`` Hakim said, ``Yes, O commander of the faithful.`` The caliph said, ``Give us a description of it.`` and all Hakim`s frustration and bitterness came out in his reply. ``Its water is dark and dirty,`` Hakim said. ``Its fruit is bitter and poisonous. Its land is stony and its earth is salt. A small army will soon be annihilated, and large one will soon die of hunger.”

This should have been enough for the caliph. But, looking still for some little encouragement, he asked Hakim, ``What about the people? Are they faithful, or do they break their word.`` Clearly, faithful people would have been easier to subdue, easier to lighten of their money. But Hakim almost spat out his reply. ``The people are treacherous and deceitful,`` Hakim said. And at that the caliph did take fright—the people of Sind sounded quite an enemy—and he ordered that the conquest of Sind was to be attempted no more.

But Sind was too tempting. The Arabs tried again and again. The organization and the drive and the attitudes of the Arabs, fortified by their new faith, in a world still tribal and disorganized, easy to conquer, the drive of the Arabs was remarkably like that of the Spaniards in the New World 800 years later—and this was not surprising, since the Spaniards themselves had been conquered and ruled by the Arabs for some centuries. Spain, in fact, fell to the Arabs at about the same time as Sind did.

The final conquest of Sind was set on foot from Iraq, and was superintended from the town of Kufa by Hajjaj, the governor of Iraq. The topicality is fortuitous, I assure you. The aim of the Arab conquest of Sind—and this conquest had been thought about almost as soon as the faith had been established—the aim of the conquest had always been the acquiring of slaves and plunder, rather than the spreading of the faith. And when finally Hajjaj, the governor of Iraq, received the head of the king of Sind, together with 60,000 slaves from Sind, and the royal one-fifth of the loot of Sind, that one-fifth decreed by the religious law, he ``placed his forehead on the ground and offered prayers of thanksgiving, by two genuflections to God, and praised him, saying: `Now have I got all the treasurers, whether open or buried, as well as other wealth, and the kingdom of the world.``` There was a famous mosque in the town of Kufa. Hajjaj called the people there, and from the pulpit he told them: ``Good news and good luck to the people of Syria and Arabia, whom I congratulate on the conquest of Sind and on the possession of immense wealth ... which the great and omnipotent God has kindly bestowed on them.``

I am quoting from a translation of a 13th-century Persian text, the Chachnama. It is the main source for the story of the conquest of Sind. It is a surprisingly modern piece of writing, a good fast narrative, with catching detail and dialogue. It tells a terrible story of plunder and killing—the Arab army was allowed to kill for days after the fall of every town in Sind; and then the plunder was assessed and distributed to the soldiers, after the fifth had been set aside for the caliph. But to the Persian writer, the story—written 500 years after the conquest is only ``a pleasant tale of conquest.`` It is Arab or Muslim imperial genre writing. After 500 years—and though the Mongols are about to break through—the faith still holds; there is no new moral angle on the destruction of the kingdom of Sind.

This was the event that was being commemorated by articles in the newspapers when I was in Pakistan in 1979. There was an article by a military man about the successful Arab general. The article tried to be fair, in a military way, to the armies of both sides. It drew a rebuke from the chairman of tile National Commission of Historical and Cultural Research.

This was what the chairman said:. ``Employment of appropriate phraseology is necessary when one is projecting the image of a hero. Expressions such as `invader` and `defenders` and `the Indian army` fighting bravely but not being quick enough to `fall upon the withdrawing enemy` loom large in the article. It is further marred by some imbalanced statements such as follows: `Had Raja Dahar defended the Indus heroically, and stopped Qasim from crossing it, the history of this sub-continent would have been quite different.` One fail to understand``—this is the chairman of the Commission of Historical and Cultural Research—``whether the writer is applauding the defeat of the hero or lamenting the defeat of his rival.`` After 1200 years, the holy war is still being fought. The hero is the Arab invader, bringer of the faith. The rival whose defeat is to be applauded—and I was reading this in Sind—is the man of Sind.

To possess the faith was to possess the only truth; and possession of this truth set many things on its head. To believe that the time before the coming of the faith was a time of error distorted more than an idea of history. What lay within the faith was to be judged in one way; what lay outside it was to be in another. The faith altered values, ideas of good behavior, human judgments.

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Godot, great post.

The Koranic paradise must as crowded as bazaars of Calcutta or Karachi. There must be thousands of Iraqi’s martyrized by Iranis and thousands of Iraqi’s martyrized by Iranis. One can also visualize bearded Talibans reclining on jeweled couches waiting for fine wines and bashful virgins. The Sept 11 terrorists may regret this over-crowding (alas-- they cannot go back to Florida or Germany)

``Religion is the scourge of humanity, which dampens down our fantasies and our lust to think and experiment``
--- a great author

re: Shah # 77

You are losing it. But it is good to know that there are Pakistanis who are India lovers. Thanks in part to these India-loving Pakistanis there are many Indians who do not bear ill-will toward Pakistan. So, there is still hope.

How unfortunate for you.

i really feel saddened by the way things are turning out . so called educated and intelligent people at chowk are busy throwing dirt at each other . how are we different f