A Decision to Regret

Re: Tahmed321

I agree with you; Pakistanis generals are better at conquering Pakistan than any other country.

Where I disagree with you is that Romair was comparing the fighting skills of the Germans and not their political acumen. The German army and its officer class, the Junkers, were professional soldiers who maintained a clear division between politics and military professionalism.

In fact, Gen. Ludwig von Bock tried to overthrow Hitler in a putsch, but was discovred and forced to commit sucide. Col. von Stuffenberg was the German officer who planted the July 20 1944 to kill the der Fuhrer, but was caught and hang from piano wires. Feldmarschall Erwin Rommel was implicated in a plot to overthrow Hitler and given the choice of a court martial or a firing squad. When it came to politics, the German generals were really naive.

No German general conquered a nation as you asked, but a Bohemian coporal by the name of Adolf Hitler did manage to hold a nation of 80 million Germans hostage and held on it like a wet dream till he shot himself after poisoning his Alastian, Blonde.

Re: anarayan

Point well said about Staingrad, but ask yourself the question what was the reason why the German army lasted so long against the Russians? The Germans were getting no reinforcements, had no effective air support, had no winter uniforms, Hitler was working over time against them, and yet they managed to keep the Soviet 64th Army of the Volga at bay for nearly 18 months.

What was the secret? Superior training; infact, if you study the US Army`s report, the German soldier performed better on the offensive, and he was better in the defence, he could fight effectively at night as well as the day and according to the Americans, who love statistics, he was 5 times better than the Russians; 2 times as good as the British and nearly 3 times better than the Yanks.

Yaar, the thing is that if you look at the battles of the Second World War, the conclusion is foregone, but still the German soldier fought on despite all the odds and from Monte Cassino to Normandy to Arnhem to Kasserine Pass the German soldier performed better even when the allies had everything going for them.

How many Medals of Honors have been given and how many Pour le Merit`s have been handed out?

I once met a German panzerofficier in Ottawa, Canada and we started to talk...turned out the old boy had two Knight`s Crosses with Diamonds, Swords and Oak Leave Clusters for battles on the Eastern Front!

The idols of the Israeli armored forces are von Manstein and Guderian! The Israelis train their armor officers like the Germans and use the German Panzer tactics, which means that you have to stick your neck out of the hatch so you see battlefield around you and fight. Ever wonder why the Israelis never opted for American tactics?

To paraphrase Tom Cruise in Risky Business, in war there is no subsitute for a German soldier!

Ciao

anNy,

{{dooor ho jao meri nazron sae}}

such badtameezi to my sis ! Its intolerable!

Zahra--SPANK HER!

Romair,

Since you are the resident military expert of Chowk, I`ll give you the benefit of the doubt re the ``perfect fighting machine``.

However, if I may humbly put forward some views from my considerably warm sofa:

--You can take the man out of the military, but you cant take the military out of the man.

Wars are not won or faught only on the battlefield anymore. The ability of a country to fight a war depends upon its economic & technological might. Other factors such as internal political stability, national will, industrial strenght, international diplomatic skills, ability to gather intelligence etc etc are vital in achieving victory in a war.

This has been getting increasingly true in the 20th century, & more so in the 21st century. Gone are the days when the marauding hordes of Attila the Hun or Gengis Khan`s Mongols could take over a country or change civilisations.

Alas, for the marital races, the world grew up & became a heck of a lot more complicated.

So, its possible for a country with the perfect fighting machine to never ever win a war.

--Now let me dig a little deeper in your mind. ``Deep, deep, down inside`` you have the same jingoistic chest thumping qualities of that pipsqueak ylh.

Now, before your fair Kashmiri face becomes all red with outrage, just hear me out...you can always say ``I NEVER SAID THAT & DONT MISQUOTE ME!`` :)

You believe that man for man the Pakistani military will kick the Indian military butt to smithereens. We can debate that issue till the cows come home; whether thats true or not. In the end, since you have military expertise, you can always proclaim that youre the expert & I dont know what the heck I`m talking about:) Besides, your military has been largely been armed & trained by the Americans. So, I`m sure you`ll find ready opinions from American Generals & airmen to substantiate your claims.

But look at the forest from the trees. For a military that has NEVER EVER won a war; boy you Pakistani soldier boys walk with one heck of a swagger! Yeah yeah, one Pakistani jawan in terms of strenght & training is equal to 5 Indian jawans--or is it 10? I`m not sure... MOOT ISSUE; BUDDY!

Too bad sword fencing is an anachronism. Maybe the proud martial Pakistani races could have slaughtered us banias on the battle ground.

Hell of a shame; aint it?!:)

--One last thing. It seems that the Americans have not just given Pakistan billions in economic aid, but military hardware & training too. On the face of it, Pakistan should be extremely greatful to the US. However,all one hears from Pakistanis (mostly) is how unreliable the US is, how the have deserted us in our time of need & how hypocritical they are.

So, my friend, before you migrate to Canada, just remember this. The US has done a more for Pakistan in 1 year than Canada has done in its entire history..

mr.gowy to zahra:

``If you are real woman, not total trash, not daughter of men you describe, do what you promise. Never come back. Get lost. First step in cleaning up Chowk. If you come back with tail between your legs, we will know who fathered you.``

why must you be like this? taking a case of harassment against her and using it to make sure she`s never around to kick your butt again..isnt that below even you? and DONT talk about her father like this..i dont care what she called you all...you just dont talk to a lady like this

Zahra, i suggest you come back forann forann and give him a firing (too); he`s not a bad person, just gets cranky and irritable sometimes

scout:

``don`t do this...(sobbing)``

dooor ho jao meri nazron sae

``Show me one German general who conquered a country of 135 million and held on to it like a teddy bear, and I`ll show you Four (count em, 4!) Paki generals``

Great line, tahmed -- very witty!

tahmad #431: ``In light of these findings, I trust that you will reconsider the composition of your Perfect Army. Thank You.``

I make my remarks after a lot of thinking. So there is no need for me to reconsider. I do however tend to live in the present and not in the past. So I am not quite sure why you are making references that are 30 years old, or around 200 years old, in case of Napoleon. Not to mention the fact, they are incorrect. But I will try to point out their incorrectness, anyways.

``I am sure you accidentally left out Indian POW guards (they took good care of our 100K braves back in 1971, wouldnt you say),``

I do not know of any POW gaurds in the world who can take care of 100,000 soldiers. Even if the gaurds possess the capabilities of Rambo (or Indians in your reference).

``and Bangladeshi freedom fighters (they did kick our butts back then, n`est pas?)``

There is no Army I know of in the world, that can take on a civilian population that is willing to die, for its cause. One cannot judge Armies in that context. The mighty US Army was humbled by the Vietnamese civilians. The Soviet Army was humbled by the Afghani civlians. Pakistani Army was humbled by the Bangladeshi civilians. The Indian Army is being humbled by the Kashmiri civilians. Armies can never be rated by how they fight civlians. The Americans could have nuked Vietnam. The Soviets could have nuked Afghanistan. Pakistan could nuke Bangladesh now. Indians could nuke Kashmir. Would that have made them better Armies?

``Show me one German general who conquered a country of 135 million and held on to it like a teddy bear, and I`ll show you Four (count em, 4!) Paki generals who have done that (happens to be their own country, but those are details). And how about Field Marshalls? Our chap promoted himself to Field Marshall.``

?. What is the point you are trying to make? My reference was only towards Lieutenants and Captains, and their fighting capabilities. They have a different task than Generals. If a civilian population wants to get rid of a General, it is not very hard to do. No General can keep 135 million agitated people under his thumb. They only remain under his thumb, if they know there is nothing better waiting around the corner, or if they are cowards. And we know Pakistani civilians are not cowards. This of course, has nothing to do with the fighting capabilities of Pakistani Jawans and Captains.

I hope your reply was supposed to be humourous, and not serious. In that case, it was quite entertaining.

tahmed321, ``You seem to be the kind of person who sticks her arm inside the tiger cage, pulling it out at the last minute. For kicks.``

now that`s an idea :)

but seriously, this tiger is a genuine sweetheart

shankar bhai #427,

go on, say it. i won`t say a word (i think)

anNy #428,

``scoutie beta..allow me to ditch you in full view of chowk``

don`t do this...(sobbing)

re: Banjaara # 437

I know, Banjaara. That is the reason why I have temporarily renounced the peace wow I took after I got into a major trouble in my college days. The uncouth way in which this monster has been harassing some ladies is enough to make me forget any thoughts of peace. If Stuka joins me, I am willing to break this Indian`s head.

Stuka, want to join me in challenging this basta@d for a fight anywhere, anytime?

Regarding German Colonels and the pakistani ex-Captain (aka Romair):



At stalingrad, the Germans had 350,000 troops who battled the rugged Russians till only 100,000 Germans were left. Then they surrendered.

In Bangladesh, Pakistani troops lost only 4000 before the rest 93,000 surrendered - a world record if you consider the ratio.

Manekshaw gave Niazi 48 hours to surrender (till 9:00 AM). After mouthing a lot of `fight till death` for a couple of days, Niazi called in at 8:50 AM to surrender.

Happy dreaming Kap-taan saab!

scout #424 You seem to be the kind of person who sticks her arm inside the tiger cage, pulling it out at the last minute. For kicks.

Romair: ``My ultimate fighting force would have well-trained Afghani soldiers, Pakistani Lieutenants and Captains, German Colonels, American Generals (they are the only ones who think on international and even outer-space scales), Vietnamese resilience, Pakistani/Israeli fighter pilots, American technology, budget and defence industry complex, British military traditions and politico-military leadership, and Japanese patriotism.``

I am sure you accidentally left out Indian POW guards (they took good care of our 100K braves back in 1971, wouldnt you say), and Bangladeshi freedom fighters (they did kick our butts back then, n`est pas?). And while you ar at it, where is your patriotism man? Pakis only as Lieutenants etc.!! Show me one German general who conquered a country of 135 million and held on to it like a teddy bear, and I`ll show you Four (count em, 4!) Paki generals who have done that (happens to be their own country, but those are details). And how about Field Marshalls? Our chap promoted himself to Field Marshall. The last time anyone proved capable of doing that in the West was too hundred years ago with Napoleon. Of course, Napoleon Bonaparte put a crown on his cutie`s head (Josephine) and then another on his own head, and our chap just put those little brass thingies (epaulets) on his shoulders. And nothing for the missus.

In light of these findings, I trust that you will reconsider the composition of your Perfect Army. Thank You.

Stuka # 411

``Oh well, anything is a pleasant change from an Indo-Pak slug-fest.``

But it is an IndoPak slugfest.The 12 headed monster is Indian who is bugging the Paki girls.Why dont you take care of your wackos,eh:)

Regards.

Romair # 416

``My ultimate fighting force would have well-trained Afghani soldiers, Pakistani Lieutenants and Captains, German Colonels, American Generals (they are the only ones who think on international and even outer-space scales), Vietnamese resilience, Pakistani/Israeli fighter pilots, American technology, budget and defence industry complex, British military traditions and politico-military leadership, and Japanese patriotism. Now that would be something, wouldn`t it.``

And no place for the Indian soldier/officer,who have kicked our butts a couple of times in the past? Romair saheb underestimating the enemy has

been our greatest weakness.The sooner we snap out of this the better for all concerned.Sorry to burst your bubble.

Regards.

Reply #: 417

``Voting a Hindu fundamentalist party into power and keeping in power a man who as premier has said that the destruction of the Babri was an expression of national will, to me suggests a general antipathy towards Islam. then of course there is the matter of captive Kashmir.``

Hobbyty,

I for one am fed up. People like you hide your prejudices well (within those finely constructed sentences and seemingly sophisticated arguments) but sometimes these prejudices come to the fore.

India has not voted a single party but a synthesis of more than 20 parties to power, all with a common agenda. Many of regional parties in this coalition are secular.

BJP is not fundamentalist in the same way as a Nazi party is. It certainly is nationalistic and tries to instil pride among Indians. Majority of Indians being hindus, that pride has, for many, become synonymous with hindu pride. There is nothing wrong with that. The concept of ``hindutva`` which Sangh Parivar espouses has a lot to do with assimilation of minorites culturally, something that latter find scary. At no time are the minorities threatened by a Nazi-style holocaust. Such a thing is unthinkable. So, you really need to come with a better definition of what you mean by ``fundamentalism``. Taliban is fundamenatlist. Can you speak of BJP and Taliban in the same breath then?

Destruction of Babri Masjid is not the common will of Indians but building a Ram Mandir is(at least for majority Hindus).

Just heard the news that a lot of christians were killed while praying in a church in Pakistan. May i suggest that this is a time for introspection for all Pakistanis. India,despite all its failings will survive. Pakistan`s very survival as a nation is at stake.

Sridhar

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