A Decision to Regret

sadna #150 ``Opposition leader Abdul Haq was hanged by the Taliban. Now was he not a good enough Muslim for them? `` You are even more stupid and tasteless than I thought. Mocking a man`s death!

shankar #82: I would debate with the devil himself, IF I read what the devil wrote and IF the devil had something worthwhile to say. Jay (and a handful of other chowk posters, I may add) is a monotonous single-beat ``hate pakistanis`` or ``hate islam`` drum. I have stopped reading his posts.

This was the first post from progressive that I have read on chowk, but I will take your word for it that he has a ``hate indians`` bent of mind that parallels that of Jay. If I read enough of progressive`s posts, I will therefore probably stop reading them too, given what you say. But as long as I read someone`s post, and if that post seems within the bounds of reason, then I think you will agree that it is worthwhile to debate that post if one disagrees with the conclusions.

Urstruly #88 This was an original idea, I will grant you. So original that it caused you to swing like a pendulum from ``All Indians Bad`` to ``All Pakistanis Bad``. Whether or not you caught a Hamidm fish to bite the bait I shall not comment on, but the Hamidm fish is only one of the many kinds of Paki fish in the ocean.

This post is an exception to my rule to ignore your posts, since I am a fair man and would give credit to the devil (as I was explaining to shankar below) himself if I felt the devil had come up with something original and was not merely singing the same old tunes.

Re: Sherdil

Yes, the Americans know what they are doing! ;)

Re: Jay

Jay, I think you have identified the problem, but in a slightly obligue manner. If you take a close demographic look at the people, who are protesting, you will find that the majority of them are Afghans. Karachi is an Afghan city and so is Peshawar and Quetta. Islamabad is an island within the Afghan zone of Rawalpindi and its surrounding areas.

What you suggested, sarcastically, is true and that is the political viewpoint of these Afghans in Pakistan.

I would like to state this on the record that it is about time that Pakistan throws these Afghans across the border in a military operation just like Zia-ul-Haq did to the Palestinians (sp?) in Jordan in 1970s.

I have no love for the Afghans. I do not care if they are Muslims, because their existence is not worth Pakistan risking its own future. Pakistanis who support the cause of the Afghans and wish to fight the jihad on their behalf are morons and they should be encourged to fight - the sooner they die, the better off Pakistan will be!. These moronic Pakistanis, who are willing to die for the Afghans should realize that if the situation was reveresed, not a single Afghan would do the same for these stupid Pakistanis!

Musharraf needs to erdicate the Afghans in Pakistan by declaring them persona non gratas and it is sincerely hoped that this winter most of these vermin will strave to death.

Like I said Jay, I love Pakistan and to me Pakistan is more important than some elusive Muslim brotherhood. If the Afghans want to fight a jihad against the United States, Allah will surely help and they really do not need Pakistan`s help. Afghanistan has never been a brother Muslim state towards Pakistan and we should stop fooling ourselves that Afghanistan is friendly towards us; it never was our friend!

Personally speaking, the United States needs to take its gloves off and use a few well placed nuclear warheads in Afghanistan to finish off the job.

Yes, it is a clash of civilizations and it is a clash of two civilizations in Islam within itself; a tolerant Islam and a militant Islam. This is a civil war within Islam itself for its future.

Pakistan has no friends in this world and the sooner we relize this, the better off we all be, because in the final analysis, we are our own best friends and our own worst enemies.

Ciao

tahmed321 #158
````Opposition leader Abdul Haq was hanged by the Taliban. Now was he not a good enough Muslim for them? `` You are even more stupid and tasteless than I thought. Mocking a man`s death!``

Called me stupid and tasteless? Happy now? I am not mocking anyones death just by asking questions about it. Why is it OK to kill fellow-Afghans to defend OBL who is an Arab?

shammi #167
You ought to have read www.truthindia.com like I recommended on the other board.

Sameer #160
`` If fundamentalists ever take over Pakistani State, it would be almost impossible to dislodge them by any means``

Sameer, its difficult to understand the mixed signals coming out of Pakistan`s officialdom/establishment/press on the strength (or even existence) of the fundamentalists.

The official Pakistani line seems to be ``Pakistan has nothing to do with groups crossing the LOC into Kashmir, they are Kashmiris trying to visit their families `` Or ``he denies any links between Pakistan and terrorists, and says he does not even believe that they exist.``

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=minai_oct1101&n=90#reply672

We also hear from news reports that the pro-Taliban demonstrations in Pakistan are mostly by members of religious organisations who are a miniscule minority and include Afghan refugees.

On the other hand, Najam Sethi seems to imply that those who donot accept that India must talk to Pakistan or these groups will takeover the Pakistani state are Hindu fundos.

Which signal should Indians believe?

Re: sadna # 171

Sadna, this is the first time that I heard a person, while quoting Najam Sethi, suggest that the protesters are extermist Hindus. I do not have the exact quote from Sethi, so I would not like to comment on this issue.

Secondly, the protesters are a mixture of Afghans, and Pakistanis. The violent aspects of the demostrations are the handiwork of the Afghans and if you look closely, the most violent demostrations are happening in cities, with a large Afghan resident population. Yes, there is a definate involvment of the religious parties in these demostrations and that has more to do with their political interests than to their religious obligations.

Remember, religious parties in Pakistan not pro-Pakistan, but are pro-power hungry and these religious parties have hitched their political wagons to this issue - United States bombing of Afghanistan - as a political rallying cry. Qazi Hussein (sp) is a Green Card holder and so is his family. He may preach religion, but the gentleman is a pragmatic materialistically motivated politican and his bark is worse than this bite.

Musharraf, from the scattered indications filtering through, will be forced to call their bluff once the United States continues its bombing campaign into the month of Ramzan. That is when these protests will turn anarchic and the Musharraf regime will have to finally confront the religious elements in Pakistan or withdraw its supports of the anti-terror coalition. That is not even an option to consider. Henceforth, there will be a serious confrontation between these religious groups and the government within the next few weeks.

Ciao

Ferozk #172
Feroz, I didnot say ``the protestors are extremists Hindus``.

The exact quote www.thefridaytimes.com
``...Hence what was kosher yesterday (talking with General Musharraf) is not kosher today, not in Pakistan and not at the UN next month.
This is misplaced strategy on the part of India. It means that the Hindu Fundos in India are unwittingly playing into the hands of the Islamic fundos in Pakistan. The Jaish-i- Mohammad, for instance, has upped its attacks on civilians in Kashmir in order to put General Musharraf on the mat. Other fundo organizations are openly trying to subvert the Pakistani army and unleash an Islamic coup. Their purpose is the same: create mayhem and rage, then try and seize the Pakistani state. ...``

shammi

The full story is as follows. It says for all to read: it appears to be a law and order problem because of nervousness. People may blow it up as a communal conspiacy but that is their problem.

How is it that after Friday prayers occurrences of violence go up? Isnt prayer for peace?

Saturday, 27 October, 2001, 11:30 GMT 12:30 UK

Anti-US protesters killed in India

India has seen a number of anti-US demonstrations

By Francis Harrison in Delhi

Seven people have died as a result of police firing on a demonstration against US strikes in Afghanistan, officials in the western Indian state of Maharashta have said.

More than 50 people received minor injuries.

A curfew has been declared in the area, and the deputy chief minister of Maharashtra, Chaggan Bhujba, says the situation is now tense but under control.

Reports say the trouble started when a group of Muslims returned from Friday prayer in the town of Malagal, some 250 kilometres (156 miles) from Bombay.

Large numbers of local police tried to prevent a small group of Muslims from distributing leaflets calling on people to boycott US-made goods and to oppose the American air strikes on Afghanistan.

Demo turns violent

When the protesters started shouting slogans, additional police were called in and the demonstrators started throwing stones at the security forces.

The police say they then baton-charged the crowd, which led to more people coming on to the streets. The police felt outnumbered and started shooting.

Three people were killed at first and more died later in hospital.

There have been several anti-US demonstrations by Indian Muslims since the bombing began in Afghanistan, but this is the first time anyone has died.

It appears as though this was mainly a law-and-order situation that got out of control because of police nervousness.

ferozek

``Personally speaking, the United States needs to take its gloves off and use a few well placed nuclear warheads in Afghanistan to finish off the job.``

........ i couldn`t agree with you more, but i would suggest we make sure the wind is blowing in the other direction - away from pakistan ......

as bad as it looks, this might be a god-given opportunity to take care of the fundamentalist problem in pakistan ...... for example, why couldn`t we let the 8,000 tribesmen from malakand cross over to afghanistan and then let the infidel B-52`s take them out ..... the pakistan army has been fighting an on-again off-agsin war in malakand agency for the past twenty five years ...... and why can`t liaqat baloch, mufti mahmood`s despicable offspring and the wizard of mansoora be killed in a police encounter - the lahore polce should have done it decades ago when baloch was a gun-toting badmash at the university ........ this evil needs to be nipped in the bud ........ in a nation of 140 million no one will notice if a few thousand disappeared ......... regardless of all the hoopla to the contrary, argentina and chile are a lot more civilized today because someone took care of the problem ......

...you can`t make halwa without breaking a few eggs

Poor Abdul Haque -- died in the futile search of that illusory oxymoron creature -- the ``moderate`` Taliban -- yet another variety of Talibani fiction -- created by Pakistan`s FO.

With double crossers like Sattar as advisor -- US is in real TROUBLE in Afghanistan.

Samir JB # 160

``, besides Abdul Haque was not enough pro-Pakistani to be propped up by Pakistani junta. He was more of a Saudi man-a pro-west semi-Islamist.``

As far as your description of Abdul Haq is concerned you are way off the truth.He was neither

pro saudi,pro west nor anti pakistani.He was a shrewd and successful businessman,who knew how to

make use of an opportunity,apart from his deep love for his country and his legendary bravery.Let

the man rest in peace.

Regards.

semipreciousme # 165

``…as for zamzamma, i think the karachiites will have more then just choice comments about that…..anNy, whaddya say?``

If I may butt in,he is probably talking about the

Kipling gun Zamzama at the Mall Road,Lahore rather than zamzama of the Defence Society in Kar.

But who knows,you may be right:)

Regards.

nasah # 176

``Poor Abdul Haque -- died in the futile search of that illusory oxymoron creature -- the ``moderate`` Taliban -- yet another variety of Talibani fiction -- created by Pakistan`s FO.

With double crossers like Sattar as advisor -- US is in real TROUBLE in Afghanistan.``

Nasah saheb, I dont know why you hate Pakistan so much, nor I care.However,I would like to tell you that it is always good to know about the enemy and

your knowledge of the enemy is abysmal...

-Taliban is the creation of ISI and not the F.O.

-Abdul Sattar is the foreign minister and not an

advisor.

Wishing you more power in your hate,

Regards.

Re: hamidm

``...you can`t make halwa without breaking a few eggs``

yuck

Dear bhai tahmed sahib:

What did I say -- 2 weeks ago -- about American`s Stupid Strategy(ASS)?

Despite your over optimism here what today`s WP has to say on the subject:

A Week of Setbacks Tests U.S. Patience and Its Plan of Attack

By Thomas E. Ricks and Karen DeYoung

Washington Post Staff Writers

Saturday, October 27, 2001; Page A01

(excerpts)



The execution of a leading opposition figure by the Taliban, coupled with the errant U.S. bombings of an International Committee of the Red Cross warehouse in Kabul and the apparent retreat of rebel forces in the north yesterday, capped a discouraging week for the U.S. war in Afghanistan.

As the campaign enters its fourth week, with the Muslim holy month of Ramadan and winter fast approaching, the Bush administration has begun to hunker down and admit to itself what it has repeatedly insisted in public -- that the war against the Taliban and the terrorists it shelters will be neither short nor easy.

Indeed, some administration officials say that despite 20 days of punishing -- if limited -- airstrikes, the U.S. military has yet to really engage the Taliban.

``We`re kind of like wrestlers, with totally different styles,`` said one official, referring to the United States and the Taliban militia that rules most of Afghanistan. ``We`re still trying to figure out where the leverage point is on these guys. We haven`t found it yet.``

Time may not be on the administration`s side, especially as key Muslim allies in the anti-terrorism war, most notably Pakistan and Egypt, begin to demonstrate open impatience with the pace and results of the campaign.

The United States has about 20 days before the advent of Ramadan could begin to seriously constrain its bombing campaign. Many Muslims have been calling for a cessation of military activity during the holy month, appeals the Pentagon has so far rejected.

After that, the onset of winter could slow military operations, especially in the mountains, where clouds, fog and winds will complicate helicopter operations and laser-guided bombing.

Although there is little evidence -- yet -- that the U.S. approach is succeeding, officials at the Pentagon and the White House said yesterday that they are sticking with their original strategy. It isn`t time to think about ``Plan B,`` a senior administration official said, because the administration is still at the beginning of implementing ``Plan A.``

``People are looking for a quicker victory than Kosovo, it seems to me, and I think this is harder and will take longer,`` the official said, referring to the 78-day U.S.-led air campaign against Yugoslavia in the spring of 1999.

``I would say that, at least for now, what we`re trying to do is make this plan work,`` the official added. ``If we come to a conclusion that something radically different is necessary, maybe we`ll look at that.``

In what has become an administration mantra, President Bush emphasized the ``long struggle`` theme again yesterday, telling a group of trade and business leaders that ``we`re slowly, but surely, dismantling`` the Taliban.

``The American people are going to have to be patient, just like we are,`` Bush said. ``They`re going to have to be determined, just like our military is.

And with that patience, and with that determination, we will eventually smoke them out of their holes, and get them, and bring them to justice.`` (as Ghalib would say: kaun jeeta hai teri zulf ke sur hone tuk -- certainly not the poor Afghans)

The White House is not yet hugely concerned about the lack of visible military success, another senior official said, noting that the American people remain solidly behind the administration.

``I`ve never been in any meeting where everyone was thinking, `Oh my God, the public is going to turn on us,` `` the official said.

Essentially, the U.S. plan (now hear this ``ASS``)is to use limited airstrikes to loosen the Taliban`s hold on Afghanistan. To do that, U.S. jets are targeting members of the al Qaeda terrorist network led by Saudi-born militant Osama bin Laden -- who the administration blames for the Sept. 11 attacks -- as well as military units associated with al Qaeda and hard-core Taliban leaders.

Pentagon officials say that bombing those three sets of targets will have three important effects: improving the situation for the anti-Taliban opposition, depriving the Taliban of the ability to fight effectively and crippling the Taliban`s ability to rule the country.

On a separate and equally important track, the administration is seeking to assemble a viable alternative to the Taliban that would unite the country`s many ethnic groups (another ASS).



This effort suffered a big blow yesterday when the Taliban captured and executed Abdul Haq, a tribal leader who had entered Afghanistan on a secret mission to win over fellow ethnic Pashtuns to the anti-Taliban cause (now this is called counting the chickens before the eggs are hatched.

Whether this plan is succeeding is anyone`s guess. ``I don`t think we`re at a stage where we can claim we have any clear evidence of anything,`` one administration official said.

Senior administration officials insisted yesterday that they were not disturbed (naturally -- for an ASS).

While acknowledging that they were far from destroying the Taliban`s ability to survive, they said the objectives had been met in what one called ``the disruption phase,`` the overall goal of which was to ``disrupt [Taliban] supply lines, their communications, their ability to hit us.``

There was little dispute that Abdul Haq`s killing and the bombings of the Red Cross warehouse compound in Kabul -- the latest in a string of errant airstrikes that have cost the campaign support in the Muslim world -- were setbacks.

Some administration officials are beginning to acknowledge that the tasks they set for themselves are proving more burdensome than they first thought. ``The focus we had on Sept. 12 has gotten a little blurry,`` an official said. ``The goal is still the same, but how to accomplish it has gotten a little bit more complicated.``

Outside the administration, experts on military affairs, foreign policy and Afghanistan are beginning to worry more openly.

It is clear that ``some of the upbeat, earlier assumptions have given way to more downbeat`` assessments, former ambassador to the United Nations and Balkans negotiator Richard C. Holbrooke said in an interview with CNN yesterday.

The diversion of public and political attention to the anthrax scare at home (ie ANTHRAXISTAN-new name for US), along with congressional reluctance to appear unsupportive of the war effort, has muted what might have been more extensive questioning.

But some on Capitol Hill are beginning to wonder, at least among themselves.

``I think it`s pretty clear that things are not going very well at all over there,`` said one top Senate aide. ``We`re bombing the hell out of them. And every time we hit a bus or a hospital, it destroys our position there.

The Taliban are getting stronger, if anything. We`re no closer to finding bin Laden. The allies are getting nervous.``

At the same time, noted Robert Pape, a University of Chicago expert on the use of air power, the negatives are beginning to accumulate. There has been an apparent increase in destabilizing refugee flows as civilians have fled Afghanistan`s major cities. Wayward American bombs have killed an undetermined number of civilians.



And the United States has had a helicopter fired upon in the supposedly friendly nation of Pakistan....(WP)