A Decision to Regret

Jay #73 ``Now you want advise from the devil.``

You flatter yourself. You mean rabid Pakistan-Hater.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch: ``An accountability Court here has formally indicted former Naval Chief Admiral (Retd) Mansurul Haq in a corruption reference wherein he was charged with causing damage of $ 3.369m to national exchequer.

The accused denied the charges after which the court directed the prosecution to produce witnesses in the court on next date and adjourned hearing till Nov. 1.``

Good job, Mushy.

Stukaji,

The references to Vietnamese massacres have tended to come from Vietnam Vets.I would gave them creedence in their gut reactions, and do not feel the license to invalidate those reactions as Mr. Imus et al, might. If they protest the killing of innocent civillians by comparing these events, its probably because they are trying to drive home very specific points. I have heard several comparisions of the US`s potential involvement with Afghanistan as ill advised as it`s military actions in Vietnam, all from Vets who are against the US`s current policy viz Osama and Afghanistan.

regards, Ms. Uppity

ARMCHAIR FIELD MARSHALL,

Pakistanis are all the time pointing out that a war with pakistan will result ina nuclear war. That is leaft unthinkable. How many bombs can pakistan drop, in a coalition against islamic bomb, what are the scenarios.

It is fairly obvious that taliban and others from afghanistan cannot operate with out the xplicit support of pakistan, being the interface with the economic and information system of the rest of the world. Every piece of equipment, military or other wise has to go through pakistan.

Pakistan also wa involved in chechniya till russia said they will start bombing. Kargill invasion is the clear example of a military jihadic nexus in modern times.

It terms of spreading jihad pakistan has taken an active role under the shaow of mush room clouds.

It is only a matter of time, give five years before the coalition against terrorism will have to snuff the clouds. Action in afghanistan is only addressing the symptom, the infrastructure and the support for it came from another country.

The generals and the field marshals and the ferzoks are talking about a nuclear war, essentially unbridles spread of jihad under the mushroom clouds, amy be it is time people start talikng about some capabilities and consequences.

An ideology similar to TNT in europe had to be quashed with a tremendous price, there may not be other options in south asia.

A couple of millions and it ended in europe, in south asia it is stii counting, should be nearly a million by now in the last fifty yeras on TNT account.

the worst BULLSH#T CNN report to date:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/24/inv.jail.death/

So the guy wasn`t involved in the terrorist attacks, but he made the front page of CNN.com since he was a Pakistani in jail?

I don`t get it.

Manoj

Some interesting points -

Where did the Ammo come from? Russia, via, Uzbek and Tajik and Turkmenstan. It has been smuggled in and smuggling is not a problem, for anything, on any of Afghanistan`s borders.

Paragraph that does not make sense to you : Please read Mr. Musharraf`s statements. He continues to stress that Pakistan supports the territorial unity of Afghanistan. he has consistently said this from the beginning of the recent action in Afghanistan. Whereas Putin, Iran and India are saying that no Taliban can have a place in the coming new Government. The backdrop of this the hydrocarbon potential of Central Asia, The prize remains whether the pipelines and the processing will be via and in Iran or via Afghanistan and processing and outlet in Pakistan. The Russian of course want a piece of the action and can secure it if Pakistan is out of the picture (because Pakistan will insist on American companies and provide security for the instalations. China is set to invest $100 Billion over the next 10 years in Xinjiang province, China shares a border with Afghanistan, Pakistan and offers it the opportunity to participate. Hoever, if Afhganistan`s territorial unity is jeopardized, that is to say that Uzbek and Tajik areas (Northern Areas) are seperated and the seperation enforced by Russian soldiers, then Central Asia will be destablized, effecting China and US economic interests. Iran would welcome this, but the strategic and ideological sumersault would put Mr. Musharraf`s 180 turn, to shame. I don`t think that would be a workable proposition. Does it make any better sense?



Trade : You miss my point, it was not Pakistan`s trade with Muslim countries but India`s trade that would suffer. You are quite correct that Pakistani diplomacy and especially economic diplomacy has not meant more that concessions, loans and out right aid, Imdad. The potential of trade and joint venture has always been poorly exploited. You know there is one more thing that I think plays a very important role, and that is leadership. Technology and organization are keys to prosperity and power. Study any transition or transformation, at it`s core you will find technology and organization to exploit the technology. Pakistan has been and unfortunately for some time longer, will continue to be a very weak State. Leadership I feel can really positively impact the weak State syndrome. Not big huge changes and big huge reforms, but a lot of little ones. History shoes that these ripple through and beyond society. Unfortunately for Pakistan and India, religious obscuritanism will take a good 5 to 10 years to be replaced by an emphasis on faith over beliefs.

You are absolutely correct that 65 and especially 71 were disasters for Pakistan. And I don`t think that Kargil was a tactical disaster, but a political and public relations disaster, and therefore a strategic disaster. I don`t think that Pakistan will ever again be in position to initiate hostilites with India, unless, it has decided to view continued existence of India as a single state as a mortal threat. I realize this is an very dangerous position, but then nuclear weapons do not seem to sober us nor is there a vision where there is a bounty that has been identified and that can be accured to both.

Kashmir - Pakistanis are, I think very keen to come to some sort of a deal in which kashmiri representation and aspiration is satisfied, LoC, I don`t feel will sell, But time will tell I quess.Please also note that for all practical terms Indian military posturing in Kashmir has ended. The verbal joust will continue, but nothing serious. I am sure Indians are watching the American response to Israeli action and will take the right lesson from it. And mark my words, they will be talking summit or some sort of ministerial meeting in a matter of months.

Hamidm, 71

Solitude, JR, and you are the only people who have dared to be critical of pakistan in a substantive way. The first two have vanished, and you are the most vilified person on chowk, one hell of a lot more than me.

It must be terrible to be a honest pakistani, to say what one feels like, with out the censoring of the fatwafobia. I can understand why pakistanis like the term desi, so that they need not be pakistani.

It is pathetic that the educated pakistanis cannot accept a divergent view with out calling the person all sorts of names, this ranges from asif the local mullah to the allegedly youg YLH and sarwari, and the so called mature tahmed. Pakistan needs a doze of humour. Are there any jokes in the book, other than the entire book is a joke.

regards

jay

hamidm ji Re # 71

``......... the only thing you guys are good for is going out ......and using the b-word without which it is impossible to make a decent philosophical argument .........``

Objection Me Lord! This is Not TRUE.

Jay has never used this word.

I have never used this word

My husband never uses this word.....

``....... thanks for reminding me why, inspite of being a heretic and an apostate, i still hate the horrible hindoos with a passion that scares and shames me ........``

What! Here I am praying so hard that God blesses one and only one THe Great Hamidm, Bhisham Pitahmah of Chowk with a wonderful son so that if I ever get a daughter, I can send a proposal of marriage between the two to hamidm assured with the knowledge that he won`t blackmail my daughter to convert. What a Fall!

Dil toote toote ho gaya.

ref: Shammi #92

The thing is that if Pakistan and India could sort out their differences, the sub-continent would be a much better place. Unfortunately that seems unlikely to happen. Pakistan had made up its mind on that issue a long time back, and India also seems to be losing patience in trying to seek peace. So what remains is a fight to the finish. Which nation cracks first is the question.

-narain

ref: arjum_m #96

``Pakistan would be wiped off. India would still exist.``

...and how exactly is that any kind of consolation?

-narain

Things are getting interesting.

Everyone invades Afghanistan, thinking this time it will be different. But somehow or the other, it ends up being the same. Long drawn out battles with no end, eventually resulting in the invader getting tired, post-war infighting between the various Afghan factions, and third part countries` support for their favorite factions.

The Taliban have basically already fallen. That does not mean they are defeated. My guess is they will or already have retreated into the mountains, and are waiting to see how things turn out with the new govt. If the Taliban are given a stake in it, they will keep quiet. If not, then they will start attacking it.

What exactly are the CIA and Pentagon considering now and next? There is talk of bombing Iraq. Again. Someone mentioned using tactical nuclear weapons. I am now convinced the brightest minds in the US go into the private sector. Only those who cannot make it there, join the US foreign service, CIA and Defense dept. And amongst them, those who score at the bottom on the tests, end up on the South Asia and Central Asia desks (a position probably no one wants).

And what about good old Ariel. He needs to keep in mind that if he invades into Palestenian homes and territory any furthur, the govt. in Saudi Arabia may fall. Saudi Arabia is, after all, the second most extremist Islamic society in the world, after Afghanistan. And if Saudi Arabia has an Iranian revolution, starts considering USA the Great Shaitan, well then, the Middle East will become a whole new can of bakhlawa.

He also needs to keep in mind, that according to Alan Derschewitz, the famous Jewish law professor, in 70 years, there may be only 10,000 red-blooded Jews left in America (I think I remember the number correctly). Primarily due to their low birth rates and interfaith marraiges with Christians. And even Christian in the USA are acknowledging there are more Muslims in the USA than Jews, right now. So bless their four wives and sex drives, in 70 years, there will many times more Muslims in the USA, than today. Eventually one of these Muslims will make it past his post as 7-Eleven cashier, and become something big in the US govt.

And sooner or later, 1 out of the 56 Muslim countries in the world, will make it out of the third world and take a leadership position, in the Islamic world. Muslims are stupid and illiterate (apart from those Muslims who dislike Islam and love secularism, the Beatles, and Bhulley Shah, of course). But come on....1 out 56 isn`t too big of a long shot. Then what happens to Israel. Without a US umbrella, if every ignorant filthy, ``Aairab`` faces Israel and urinates, it will drown.

Not that I have anything against Israelis. They write the second best software in the world, after the Americans. And have the second best fighter pilots, after Pakistan. Heck, I even had a Jewish roommate in college. But one can only tolerate Apaches and Cobras bombing civilians, for so long.

Here`s a piece of advice for Mr. Sharon: make a deal on Palestine, while you are still in the driver`s seat. I gave similar advice to Atal ji, two years ago. He didn`t listen, and look at the mess he is in now. Mushy is exchanging jokes with Larry King, while ABV is avoiding the tehelka.com reporters.

Is a clash of the civilizations about to erupt? I never thought it would happen in our lifetime. But, now it is only one tactical nuclear weapon away, if you ask me.

Here is an idea: the USA presents its evidence against OBL to the Taliban and to international crminal court(s). Who knows the Taliban may keep their word, and hand him over, to a third country. At the very least, we will all know whether he carried out the WTC bombing, once the international courts hold his trial. Even if it is in absentia.

My own guess is that OBL did mastermind other terrorist attacks against the US, but not the present one. Otherwise, the US would not hesitate to forward the evidence to any kind of international justice institution.

Reply Humsab # 88

“Sorry for interfering but I believe calling anybody Chuurra (North Indian word for Sweeper class) is also a cognizable offence and I know for sure that such complaints are registered and action taken. Law is there and fauth can be in implementation.”

Actually….(aur yeh hamari Dilli ki baath hai)….if anybody in Delhi is foolish enough to call somebody a bhangi (which is I believe an extremely unpleasant word) nobody would bother calling the cops BUT this misguided person would soon be made to see the error of their ways. (Haan ji, un ke daanth thod ke hi chhodthe). But the law is also a good thing, doubtless.

Zafar

PS Stuka – this confirms all I that have long suspected about how much more cultured people from other cities are. What to do, yaar? Mera jeevan kora kaagaz etc.

jay #105 ``Pakistan needs a doze of humour. `` You provide it. Only you dont know it.

Manoj

For your reading pleasure:

October 25, 2001

ESSAY

Bush`s Mideast Charade

By WILLIAM SAFIRE

WASHINGTON

To read the headlines, you would think a major rift was growing between the U.S. and its only dependable ally in the Middle East.

Our State Department ``demands`` that Israel end its forays into West Bank terrorist centers and promise never to respond punitively again. Israel ``rebuffs`` this angry order and ``defies`` the U.S. spokesman. Then Colin Powell brushes aside President Bush`s cautious ``as quickly as possible`` and escalates the call for withdrawal to ``immediate.``

But the Bush administration knows full well that Israel cannot turn the other cheek when one of its cabinet ministers is assassinated. And it knows that at a moment when the U.S. is dispatching bombers and soldiers to kill the assassins of 6,000 of our citizens harbored by the Taliban in Afghanistan, it is the height of hypocrisy to demand that our ally refrain from hunting down killers harbored by the P.L.O.

Bush`s advisers are also well aware that to insist publicly that Ariel Sharon do as we say, not as we do, begs for a ``rebuff.`` Even Israel`s dovish former foreign minister sees through it: ``Imagine now that Sharon says, `Well, all right, I withdraw,` `` notes Shlomo Ben-Ami. ``Then what will be the image of Israel in the Arab world? Its deterrent capability, its steadfastness would be seriously eroded.``

If the U.S. order to withdraw is both patently hypocritical and certain to be rejected, why are Colin Powell and his spokesman sent out to beat up on the Israelis?

One answer is obvious: This is supposed to show the Arab ``street`` that the U.S. is not pro-Israel, that we are evenhanded brokers of Palestinian peace. Our message is that it`s O.K. for Pakistanis, Egyptians and Saudis to be with us against the bin Laden terrorists in Afghanistan because the U.S. does not blame Arafat when suicide bombers kill Israeli teenagers.

Another answer is ``coalition building.`` For example: Because Iran is angry at being used as the route for the Taliban`s heroin exports, and because its clerics also despise Iraq`s Saddam Hussein — then maybe if we publicly castigate Israel and privately condone Iran`s support of Hezbollah terrorism, ``moderate`` ayatollahs will not oppose our terrorist hunt in Afghanistan.

The charade in Washington is accompanied by a wink toward supporters of Israel in the U.S.: this ``demand`` supposedly helps Sharon politically. By making it possible for him to strike a courageous pose of standing up to the U.S. pressure, we help Sharon solidify his hard right, cool the dissension on his soft left and increase his popularity among embattled Israelis in the center. At the same time, columnists of my ilk are sent word that — Powell`s ostensible tilt toward Arafat to the contrary — the president`s hawkish heart is still in the right place.

All this diplomacy by deflection is too clever by three-quarters. Just as corrupt Arab potentates try to protect themselves from the fury of their downtrodden subjects by fanning hatred of the U.S. and the West, we are trying, through our charade of selective antiterrorism, to deflect that hatred over to Israel exclusively. (Don`t blame us, it goes — see how we`re pressuring the Jews on your behalf?)

Such buck-passing won`t work. With logic, followers of Osama bin Laden will say, ``By killing thousands of Americans, we got the U.S. to put pressure on Israel. In the same way, by panicking Americans with the threat of germ warfare, we will force the infidels to abandon their Jewish ally. And then . . .``

The consequence of our misbegotten diplomacy of deflection would be intensified attacks on America. The way to discourage war on our homeland is to show no weakness, to demonstrate forcefully that atrocities committed here gain no victories in the Middle East or anywhere.

This year Arafat invited the terrorist Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine to move from Damascus to the West Bank. The P.F.L.P. proudly claims that its hit men murdered the Israeli cabinet minister, an act of war. Israel is obliged to go after his killers just as we are duty bound to go after the killers of Americans.

The troops will withdraw in a couple of days. But the proper response to our ally`s self-defense is to understand Israel`s lonely anguish and applaud its resolve. Such a principled expression of presidential steadfastness should be, in Secretary Powell`s word, ``immediate.``

FerozK # 46

Bravo Feroz. That was the most honest, erudite and sensitive reaction I have seen offered against a pamphleteer Jay has chosen to be.

Jay has insights that would have been valuable had he bothered to leave out his noxiousness. He is somebody devaluing his own intellect, and given to too much gloating about the achievements of his own generation in India.

And, though not generally prickly with ``negativist`` views as many are, I do think vacuous negativity is as insufferable as vacuous positivity. I like to think some youngsters on chowk are passionate practitioners of the later, but they have age on their side. There are also some venerable ones, but hamidm, Zafar and Veeresh blunt their boredom with sophistication, wit and horse sense.

Can`t say that of Jay. Besides, he is more of a filibuster than somebody interested in proctracted debate. He is happy having baited.

Hobbyty

I am not sure that the amount of ammo required could be procurred through smuggling across borders. Even if we accept your point that the ammo is smuggled, it raises very pertinent questions

a) What is given in exchange of ammo during smuggling. ? Drugs ...right. How are the true , Muslims, Islamists, Allah fearing that Taliban proclaim to be are neck deep in drugs. Now please dont argue that Taliban sells dry fruits in exchange of arms, ammo??

b) what about maintenance of equipment, choppers, planes ?? surely the Pakis are doing that

c) Why does Pak Army maintain significant presence of advisors in Af`tan. Surely, they are not teaching taliban how to grow vegetables.

d) Whats your take on the killing of HUM activists & Pak govt refusal to allow the bodies?

The point I was trying to make is the Mushy uncles assertion that it does not aid , arm, abett Taliban is a total hoax. And he is the only one who probably believes that story. Colin Powell`s statement today about ` Pakistan should not repeat its mistakes in Af`tan...` is an honest statement.

Kashmir - Pakistanis are, I think very keen to come to some sort of a deal in which kashmiri representation and aspiration is satisfied, LoC, I don`t feel will sell,

Pray what does Kashmiri representation & aspiration mean? Do you include Kashmiri Hinuds, Sikhs, Buddhists as Kashmiris? Is Pakistan also planning to find out Kashmiri aspirations or is that a settled issue? When did last did Paki Kashmiris get a chance to express their aspirations? LOC will not sell, so is Pakistan hoping to get some territory? Will Pakistan will be satisfied if India gave some land to Pakistan in the Thar desert or is it the valley you covet??

Would really appreciate pointed answers.