A Decision to Regret

arjun_m # 27

Arjun, that is so horrible. I hope you did not mean to derive any perverse satisfaction from this despicable act committed by a bunch of animals.

An indictment of Powell as Secretary of State, and a `get tough` policy with Pakistan:

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/32215.htm

Tahmed:Your recent posts are a reflection of the terrible state of mind you are in these days.Please stick to interpreting the Quran and congratulate yourself to be the only mulla with a congregation numbering ONE(or zero?).

It is not unheard that those who seek refuge behind their own delusional ancestories are the ones dashing for cover under the oppressors` pantaloons.

Happy evolving!Please give my regards to the baboons,monkeys,langurs and hanumaans who dangled on your family tree.

fuzair:I did follow your post and your reply does betray that.Anyway,given your bland interest in the affairs of the ummah is it not worthwhile for you to focus your energies where you can `advance` & `progress` in tandem with the `civilised` ones.

Or is it ``Can`t love them or leave them`` syndrome....kind of like that other schizophrenic on chowk,hamidm.

Reply Tahmed # 24

“You will then have taken a step forward from being an animal and becoming a human being.”

Tahmed Saheb, you really take the civilising mission seriously.

urstruly sighted .....

......... did anyone see the latest al-jazeerah video ? ... i though i saw urstruly peaking out from behind osama and the mad doctor .........

....... thank god for small blessings .....

......and it really blows my mind to see the good pakistanis preoccupied with the plight of afghans and palestininans when our own house is in one big mess ...... swear to god, after this mess is over ( and, of course, we have kicked the horrible hindoos out of kashmir ) i will never look past attock in one direction and jehlum in the other ..... as for the palestinians - for all i care, they can descend to hell from the other side of the dome ...... let`s mind our own business and be horribly parochial for a change ........ there is nothing sillier than reading scholarly treatises on the future of afghanistan and chechnya when we should be talking about schools and sewers in akora khattak .........

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Ferzok,

IRRELEVANCE OF CHOWK CRITICISM,

So that is your gripe, why indians are not criticising indian govt actions on chowk. It is irrelevant, there are so many news papers, there are opposition parties, there are a whole lot of institutions devoted to it, unlike pakistan. On topics of major significance, they are never forgotten, they are consigned to lasting institutions.

Take babri masjid, people are still talking about it, there are enquiries still going on. So many hindu temples were distroyed in apparent `spontaneous` reaction to it in pakistan.

Now ferzok tell me the truth, have you heard about it.

Killing of the aussie priests shanes, I know in bangalore, there is a human rights award to be given every year in his honour. Now tell me ferzok, have you heard of any enquiry into the demolition of ahmadia temples recently.

Events of disgrace, pakistanis tend to hide, they want no one to know about it, while in india we want every one to know so that things improve.

Now tell me ferzok, why no pakistani worth his words on human rights dares to write an article on abdus salam on chowk, whlile articles on sher shsuri, and indian girl married to a dig abound.

It is called fatwafobia, it is not there in india, and that is why criticism of india on chowk is superflous. Pakistanis, even on chowk are afraid of ISI and fatwa, dare not even say that ahmadias are OK.

Each and every of your and other pakistani articles exude the fear of the ISI, afraid to accept the symboitic relationship of the taliban and the pak military, and that is why all that you and other write is trash about afghanistan.

You cannot accpet that the abandoning of taliban by the pak military is a prostitution of the country and islamic ideals. It is a `decision to regret``, more so a decision in disgrace for the pak military.

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Former Pak soldiers ask Indian defence minister for pension

SUMIR KAUL

Turtuk, October 22, 16:17









ounds not less than a wonder, but this happened in this far flung sector in the icy Himalayan terrain when two former Pakistani soldiers ``stopped`` Defence Minister George Fernandes and asked for pension from the government.

``Hazoor, hamara pension sharu karva dijye (Sir, please start pension for us),`` cried Ali Hassan and Abdul Rehman, both residents of Tykshi village in this sector. Hassan and Rehman were enrolled in Karakuram Regiment of the Pakistani Army and had retired from it in 1970. However, on December 16, 1971, the area was taken back by the Indian Army leaving the two residents of the village without any source of income. Interestingly, the Corps Commander of the 14 Corps Lt.Gen. Arjun Ray had provided the sons of these two people a job in the Ladakh Scouts.

Hassan had raised the matter with Union Home Minister Lal Krishna Advani, when he was on a visit here this summer. ``Advaniji had assured me that he would take up the matter with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf but nothing has happened so far,`` Hassan said.

``Ab agar woh humko pension nahi de rahe hain to aap hi dijye (if Pakistan is not giving us the pension, then you give us),`` Hassan told Fernandes with folded hands and whispered in his ears: ``We are your countrymen.``

Acknowledging the fact that conditions for survival in India are very good, Hassan said: ``They (Pakistan) did not care for us and used this village only as a piece of land. But India has developed this piece and provided employment to the youth of not only this village but several others.``

Speaking highly of the Army, both Hassan and Rehman said: ``At least they provided some relief to us by recruiting our sons in the Ladakh Scouts and Guides.``

Habibullah Khan, son of Hassan, who was in the uniform was specially called by Fernandes and patted on the back. ``I feel very proud of serving my country and people,`` Khan said. The two sons of Rehman are at present undergoing training in Leh.

Rehman, who was even a prisoner-of-war, said that he was with the Karakuram Regiment for three years but left the Pakistani Army in 1971 after his native village, Turtuk, was taken back by the Indian Army.











``When I reached Kargil, I was detained and taken to Udhampur (Jammu region) for 10 months. After a decent interrogation, I was brought back to my native village and allowed to live like an Indian citizen,`` Rehman said while narrating his story.

Rehman feels that state or the Central government should provide them with some monthly relief if ``not a pension.``

However, their prayer is unlikely to be granted and even the defence minister, after giving a patient hearing to the duo, remained noncommital about the matter.(PTI)



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hobyty#16

Quite agree with some of your thoughts.

However, india stands to gain a lot out of the current situation in Af`tan.

a) Closure of all terrorist training camps in Af`tan where lot of `Kashmiri, Chechen freedom fighters` were being trained. Quite a few camps were relocated from Pakistan to Af`tan due to Intl presure. One of the reasons for Paki support to Taliban was for the fact that they provided safe training grounds away from Paki soil. This is not to say that all Paki camps were relocated. But now Pakistan will have to house all boot camps and the resultant possibility of complicity.

b) Intl communities suspicion of Muslim terrorist movements being carried out under various pretexts. In a hostile Intl enviornment, Mushy uncle cant talk about freedom movements and get away.

c) Psychological effect on `Kashmir freedom fighters` and `Hurriyat` on the fact that Pakistan ditched its own child to save its butt. Yesterday, you had pathetic Mushy trying to disown its own child `taliban` on PTV. To a question, he said we dont know how taliban got arms, ammunition, military training. He said that taliban ousted Northern alliance and got control of ammunition. This was the ammunition which was left by Soviets. The soviets must have left infinite supplies which have lasted the various forces for a good ten years!!! when the northern alliance retreated did they not destroy the arms dumps. Where did taliban learn to fly jets, choppers and where did they learn aircraft maintenance?? In Florida of course !!!

d) The recent events have provided a precedence to India to take the battle into the enemy camps. when we cross LOC :-) the call to restraint ( during Kargil) might not come.

e) We had a very interesting debate on ``islamic terrorism` at the local club some days back. As a rebuttal to the fact that terrorism by Christians is not labelled `Christain terrorism` and terrorism by tamils in Sri lanka not labelled as `Hindu terrorism` one of the speakers said that these groups do not invoke religion or religiious sentiments in their struggle. Tamils dont say that they are fighting a dharam yudh or the IRA does not say that it is fighting a crusade!!. However, the first thing that Muslim terrorist groups is to adopt a very Islamic name, immediately issue a call to Jehad, print propoganda material with Koranic verses etc etc, target religious minorities and this is precisely for this reason that there is `Islamic terrorism`.

arjun

Deluded? About what? Please explain.

Sorry for cut and paste job from Nation daily. But hussain Naqi writes very convinvingly.

The military and the mullahs

Husain Naqi

Military and mullah interference in politics has landed Pakistan in the present mess. The compulsions that forced the military regime`s volte face instead of choosing a rollback to the Stone Age is impossible for the mullahs to stomach. The regime also appears to be reluctant to dump, once and for all, what has been regarded by its intelligence outfits as the most dependable `strategic asset` to subvert democratic development.

The hysterical outbursts of the mullahs and their tools, the madrassah students, have come in handy for some political parties who have uses religion as their main political slogan with little electoral success. With them, there are a few retired veterans like Hamid Gul, Aslam Beg, Abbasi and others who felt no anguish when the US granted the title of jihad to their proxy war in Afghanistan. Since the Soviet withdrawal, these super-faithfuls played no role in negotiating peace between the Afghan warlords who all claimed they were fighting jihad. Instead they abetted and applauded the imposition of the Taliban as a `true Islamic` set-up and sought recognition for their regime as the legitimate Afghan government. They were happy when similar militant outfits were launched and pampered in Pakistan as being imbued with `true jihadi spirit`.

Few among our so-called Islamists identified the dangers those distortionist outfits posed within Pakistan and elsewhere. Instead they endorsed the spilling of our youths` blood in places as far away as Chechnya. This inflated their egos and coffers, and their clout with the establishment. Pakistani promoters of Taliban all the time stressed on the world to `engage` them while they were engaged in distorting Islam, demolishing Afghan heritage and oppressing the populace, especially women and minorities. Till now Pakistan is the sole regime recognising the Taliban regime. Now it feels compelled to distance itself from Taliban `holy` warcries. But there are thousands if not hundreds of thousands, who perceive the Taliban and their jihadi guest Osama bin Laden as engaged in `holy` pursuits.

In Pakistan, there is a need to clear the cobwebs of confusion both about the role of Osama and his Al-Qaida as well as the Taliban regime that shelters them. Those vocally, in fact violently, supporting Osama and his hosts, argue they are serving the cause of our Muslims` faith and seeking justice for the causes of Muslims worldwide, especially where they are victimised. Nothing could be more fallacious. No evidence other than Osama and his outfits` involvement in violent crimes is available. Osama and his outfit as well as their hosts, have rendered no service to Muslim peoples or countries. They have only been involved in indoctrinating and training them to commit violent crimes, mostly against innocent people. With all the riches Osama and many of his cohorts are reported to possess, little if anything has been invested for the development of the people and their country. For the last five years he and his `holy` men are staying in Afghanistan but there have been no reports of any institution of higher learning, any health facility or shelter and food for drought-stricken Afghan people being provided by them. There have, instead, appeared reports that he made funds available to the Taliban for purchase of arms and commanders, including in Kabul and in different provinces. In Pakistan, he is alleged to have funded both sectarian killers and politicians to topple Benazir`s government.

The indoctrination Osama and his Al-Qaida are engaged in has grievously harmed Muslim youths engaged in higher education in developed countries (including a large number of Pakistanis). Muslim nations` interests have been hurt and even irreparably damaged by the fanatical motivation for waging war on the `infidels` and to resurrect the so-called Khilafat. To call violent crimes that result in killing thousands of innocents `holy` is blasphemous. It is the most lethal way of scandalising the Islamic faith of a billion Muslims all over the globe. It needs to be nipped in the bud by Muslims inspired by true Islam.

Politicising any faith, be it Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism (even thought it is not a faith) has always proved dangerous and harmed the faithful. In the present time, it would be all the more lethal and block the development of Muslims and their countries. Faith needs to be a private affair, which was why the Quaid-i-Azam clearly stated it should not interfere with affairs of state, just on the eve of Independence. Circumstances appear to have compelled the military-dominated bureaucratic Establishment to face this truth, now. It is still reluctant to admit its deviations and distortions. That may result in further destabilisation of Pakistan if the mullahs with their madressah mobs continue to enjoy license to disrupt public life and engage in violence while the ban on rallies and public meetings by democratic parties stays.

The regime`s policy to restrict space for political activities, of which public meetings and rallies are the conventional form, while tolerating the misuse of mosques and markets by the mullahs, will not take long to degenerate into mob violence. The angry unemployed youth finding no other outlet may join the crowds and indulge in arson and looting. The government direly needs to engage the moderate and liberal democratic parties in tiding over the crisis. So far, it has failed to do so. On their own the democratic parties which enjoy massive electoral support in both urban and rural areas have denounced the criminal terrorism in the US and sought an end to the Taliban-provided safe haven. Leaders of mainstream parties have also urged withdrawal of the Pakistan government`s patronage to the Taliban and promoting their inclusion in the future Afghan set-up under the false impression that the Taliban represent the Pushtoon majority. The truth is that the Taliban represent only a tiny bigoted minority.

Pakistan`s misruling elite has traditionally used the ethnic majority cover for its perpetuation in power and oppression of ethnic minorities has blocked the functioning of the federal system. Its vocal opposition to Afghanistan`s Northern Alliance that represents the ethnic minorities of Afghanistan has much to do with the continuation of Taliban misrule and failure of efforts, involving the UN, to establish a broadbased set-up in Afghanistan. However, now, after repeated spurnings of suggestions made to the Taliban regime, Pakistan seems agreeable to US-supported efforts by ex-King Zahir Shah while, at the same time, making its own proposals for a convention of leaders from different Afghan factions. There is little leverage left for our establishment to promote Taliban `moderates` to appease the native clergy.

A break from its unenviable past, particularly since the Zia dictatorship, will be more in order. The armed forces in general and the Pakistan army and its paramilitary forces in particular need drastic reforms to restore them as forces of the Pakistani nation. Restoration of the Quaid`s motto of Unity, Faith and Discipline needs to guide the armed forces instead of iman, taqwa and jihad fi sabeel illah imposed by the hypocrite Zia. And while urging the US to seriously consider the root cause of terrorism, the military-dominated establishment would be better advised to also admit the root cause of the crisis that Pakistan has been faced with.

E-mail queries and comments to: naqi@nation.com.pk

nasah #29 You are clutching at straws in support of your point that the US is being incompetent in Afghanistan, my dear Mr. nasah :-)

The ``fog of war`` is a well-known phenomenon and no one is immune from it - it could be a pilot error in this case, it could be a communication gap whereby the ground position of the Northern Alliance was not communicated to the US forces, who knows. In his book ``Brazen Chariots`` concerning the tank warfare in North Africa in WWII the author (I forget the author`s name, who fought there) talks about British 8th Army vs. British 8th Army tank battles taking place at times due to the same ``fog of war``: and these were tanks on the ground from the same army!!

Re: Jay # 40

Jay, my question to you is simply why do you hate Pakistan; it because of the reasons you have given in your post # 40?

If you are so sure about it, why don`t you finish the job you Indians could not do since 1947? If you have the evidence about cross-border terrorism, why don`t you invade Pakistan? If you want to attack Pakistan, why do you keep harping threats on Indian media and why don`t go actually invade it?

If your cause is so right, the world will support you. What is India afraid of? Pakistan?

I agree with you on all the points you have raised and yes; Pakistan needs a lot to account for itself in the past 54 years. There is no denying that fact. You ask me what is the problem? I will tell you it has nothing to do with India or any other international conspiracy. Pakistan`s problem has been that its leaders have left a lot to be desired. Yes, there have been leaders after Jinnah, who could have made a difference, but they did not. There is no sense crying over missed opportunties. Pakistan needs to break with the past, and the question that Pakistan needs to answer right now is whether it has the courage to do so.

You talk about fatwaphobias and you have a valid point. Pakistan has never answered the question, whether it should be a theocracy or a secular democracy. It does not matter what Jinnah wanted Pakistan to be. Jinnah is dead and cannot influence anything. The leadership failure in Pakistan has been in the post-Jinnah leadership. Religion has been used as a political tool to quell dissent in Pakistan by the politicans. Pakistan has no insititutions worth mentioning and if you ask me, I will tell that Pakistan was never allowed to develop as a nation.

In many ways, Pakistan is still grappling with the issues of national developement and has been held hostage to the political expendencies of the situation. Where is the fault? Does it reside in the leadership or in the people? Maybe, it rests with the both of them.

Extermism breeds extermism. I do not know if you know this or not, but Pakistanis have a Masada Complex, when it comes to India; we are ready for a war with India and we do not mind dying as long as we kill a few Indians along the way.

So Jay, go ahead and threaten Pakistan and all it will do is marginalize the moderates and create conditions, that will make Afghanistan seem like a pleasant dream. Every time India threatens and bullies Pakistan, it gives the military one more excuse to keep the reins of power in its hands on the pretext of ``national neccesity``.

Yes, Pakistan has problems and most Pakistanis are trying to solve them as best as we can. Will Pakistanis be able to succeed in this endeavor? I honestly do not know, but I know that remaining where we are presently is not an option anymore. The last 54 years of rot cannot be changed within a forthnight or a year or more. It will take time and whether we have the luxury of time, I do not know. If you ask me, there are more questions than answers on this issue. Unlike you, I do not have a crystal ball, which tell me all the answers I need to know.

So if you want to hate Pakistan, please go right ahead and hate Pakistan to your heart`s delight. If you decry Pakistanis for not being perfect politically, I doubt there is a Pakistani who will disagree with you. We are not asking you to sympathize with us; empathy would be a lot more helpful, because we are not saying we do not have problems, but we saying do not make the situation any worse.

I will be honest with you and other Indians on this board. I love Pakistan and what I hate is not the people who hate Pakistan; neither do I hate people who do not want to help Pakistan, but I do hate the people, who have nothing constructive to say about Pakistan. If you can offer us nothing, then please do not offer us your comments if they are not constructive. There is too much negativity in Pakistan to add your comments to the balance.

I welcome your comments, if instead of belittling Pakistan constantly you can offer advice on how we can do a better job. Do not tell us what our problems are, because we know what they are; tell how we can solve them.

Ciao

PAK MILITARY MOTTO

``Restoration of the Quaid`s motto of Unity, Faith and Discipline needs to guide the armed forces instead of iman, taqwa and jihad fi sabeel illah imposed by the hypocrite Zia.``

The above is from the article by naqui, posted by sameer. Many always wondered, how the pak army executed the kargill invasion with the help of the jihadists.

Now we know, jihad is the motto of the army, and that also explains what happened to the first indian soldiers cought by the pak troopps in kargill, as evidenced on their dead bodies.

Obviously, pak miloitary appears to be operating now under the zia motto. Who added pimping to the motto then.