India’s Communal Gamble

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Asif Sahib,

I have shown that the Quranic verses you cited to support your position on Blasphemy Laws are clearly quoted out of context. I then quoted 2 verses from Quran that clearly support my position on this issue. I also cited some of the most commonly known traditions of the dear Prophet (pbuh) that agree with this position.

Your only remaining argument is quoting, what I call, obscure and questionable traditions of the Prophet (pbuh). I call these traditions obscure and questionable because they are against clear Quranic teachings (primarily) and also against some of the most commonly known traditions.

You have not been able to rationally deny the strength of my arguments. The closest you came (on another board) was to bring up the issue of abrogation of Quranic verses. Here you have opened a can or worms, which changes the nature of this debate, and every debate related to any Islamic issue.

You continue to reject my views on basis that Sattar is not a scholar. Here are some thoughts on this issue: It is worth noting that Muslims have been divided in some 70+ sects, with a large number of scholars in each sect. These scholars have devoted their lives to studying Quran, Traditions, works of other scholars, and more. Then why do they continue to differ amongst themselves and call each other non-Muslims and more?

You raised the issue of abrogation of Quranic verses. Are all ullema in agreement that Quran is “abrogatable”? Are they unanimous on which verses to abrogate? Are there different versions of Quran, each with some or the other verses abrogated?

I am not totally rejecting the works of scholars here. Lifetime of study of an issue by a scholar is worth consideration, but only and only if it is not against Quranic injunctions. If a scholar abrogates some Quranic verses, in essence he is rejecting Quran and deriving guidance from some other source. This is bound to mislead him. I say this with utmost confidence since Quran claims to be the “Perfect Book”, and Allah has promised that He is the Guardian over this Book. Even some of the staunch enemies of Islam have admitted, albeit grudgingly, that they have not been able to find any evidence of tampering with Quran; it exists in its purest form, the way it was revealed to the dear Prophet (pbuh).

Statements like these, esp. from the enemies of Islam, fill my heart with joy. They provide clear evidence of fulfillment of the Allah’s promise to the believers, and further strengthen my faith in Quran. Truly, all praise belongs to Allah Almighty.

Then I turn around and see Muslim “scholars” abrogating Quranic verses. Now this really breaks my heart. We should be extremely joyful that Allah has revealed this Perfect Book to guide us, and He continues to protect it … for you, for me, and for all others. Why would you or anyone want to abrogate parts of this Blessing from our Sweet, Loving, Merciful Allah?

Asad

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Concerned about the color of tiles used in a toilet and giving it a religious tone - how much more paranoid can one get. This man is totally zilch. India is presently the only country where minorities can live in relative peace.The fact that you are able to spew venom against Indian policy and still be around is indication of the freedom of speech you get here ( had this been Pakistan or other repressive countries, you would have ended in a electric chair ).

Sattar2 sahib,

Its been interesting interacting with you but i still do not accept your point of view vis-a-vis the penalty for the insulter of the Prophet alayhisalatosalaam as I think the scholars position is much stronger. One work you might want to see is ``Gustaakh-e-Rasul ki sazaa`` by Hazrat Sa`eed Ahmad Kazmi.Another--in English--and the one by the 14th Century Hijri `s greatest alim is--in its translation called ``The Penalty For Insulting The Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam by Imam Ahmad Raza Khan [Raza Academy UK].

BTW,you cannot dismiss the hadiths you do not like as being obscure just coz you might not be familiar with them!As far as i am aware you are not a muhaddith!Anyway, lets agree to this agree!

May Allah guide you to the Ahle Sunnah!

Asif Naqshbandi Sahib (#441):

Your mullahs have stretched the context of the verses you quoted and have come up with a very barbaric understanding of Islam.

In Surah-e-Ahzab, in verse 60 Quran refers to hypocrites, people whose hearts are diseased, and those who cause agitation in the City (by spreading rumors etc.). In the following verse, these people are cursed and believers are commanded to slay them.

Your mullahs failed to note one important, critical detail here. The earlier verses of this surah make it clear that the Quran is referring to the times of war, when the enemy has united against Muslims and is conspiring to annihilate them. In this particular case, it was the time of the Battle of Ditches. Then, the kuffar of Quraish, some Bedouin tribes, and some Jewish tribes had united, attacked the Muslims, and conspired to finish them off. The title of surah, i.e. “Ahzab”, meaning “Confederates”, makes the context clearer. It is in such times that those who conspire against the Muslim community are to be slain.

Moving on … I checked Quran translation by 3 authors. They have translated 51:11 as (1) cursed be the liars, (2) woe to the false-hood mongers, and (3) woe to the falsifiers. On the other hand, you translate it as “may the conjecturers be killed”. This again is a misinterpretation that you continue to follow blindly.

Other Quranic references in your post are meaningless. You have misunderstood them in the light of your misinterpretations that I have addressed above. You also quoted obscure, questionable traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) to support your argument. You have conveniently ignored some of the most commonly known traditions where the Prophet (pbuh) forgave his enemies and continued to pray for their well being. Such traditions also fit the overall message of Quran of mercy and compassion for all, and the traditions of all the prophets mentioned in Quran.

You have also ignored the clear Quranic commandments where believers are merely asked to sever social ties with those who blaspheme (4:140 and 6:68). Instead, you want to kill these people in the name of Allah.

You follow the corrupt, fanatic mullahs who have disfigured the message of Allah Almighty. They will only mislead you. Read Quran with an open mind. Have compassion and love for all of Allah’s creations … even those who blaspheme the dear Prophet (pbuh). Instruct them gently, with kindness and patience. Ask Allah to guide these people to the truth. If you are sincere, He will surely listen to your prayers and turn around the hearts of those who are misguided. It has happened in the past. You can make it happen again. Have faith in Allah’s help.

The answer is very clear. If you choose not to acknowledge it, it is your decision.

Regards, Asad

sattar2,

i hope this should convince you. but i doubt it.

consider this my last post in this matter. You will no doubt observe that the quotes are mostly fromthe QURAN. And truly guidance is only from Allah.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

startquote

The proof of the necessity of killing anyone who

curses the Prophet or finds fault with him

The Qur`an says that Allah curses the one who harms the Prophet in this world and He connected harm of Himself to harm of the Prophet. There is no dispute that anyone who curses Allah is killed and that his curse demands that he be categorised as an unbeliever. The judgement of the unbeliever is that he is killed.

* * *

Allah says, ``Those who harm Allah and His Messenger, Allah has cursed them in this world and in the Next, and has prepared for them a humiliating punishment.`` (33:57). He said something similar about those who kill the believers. Part of the curse on them in this world is that they are killed. Allah says, ``Cursed they will be. Wherever they are found, they are seized and all slain.`` (33: 61)

* * *

He mentions the punishment of those who fight, ``That is humiliation in this world for them.`` (5:45) ``Killing`` (qatl) can have the meaning of ``curse``.[6] Allah says, ``May the conjecturers be killed!`` (51:11) and ``May Allah fight them! How they are perverted!`` (9:30) i.e. may Allah curse them.

This is because there is a difference between their harming Allah and His Messenger and harming the believers. Injuring the believers, short of murder, incurs beating and exemplary punishment. The judgement against those who harm Allah and His Prophet is more severe - the death penalty.

Allah says, ``No, by your Lord, they will not believe until they have you judge between them in what they disagree about.`` (4:65) He removes the badge of belief from those who find an impediment in themselves against accepting the Prophet’s judgement and do not submit to him. Anyone who disparages him is opposing his judgement.

Allah says, ``O you who believe, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet and be not loud in your speech to him as you are loud to one another lest your actions fail.`` (49:3). Such an action only comes about through disbelief and the unbeliever is killed.

Allah says, ``When they come to you, they greet you with a greeting which Allah never greeted you with.`` Then He says, ``Jahannam is enough for them, an evil homecoming.`` (58:9)

Allah says, ``Among them are those who harm the Prophet and say that he is all ear,`` (9:61) and, ``Those who harm the Messenger of Allah have a painful punishment.`` (9:63)

Allah says, ``If you ask them, they will say, `We were only plunging and playing.` Say, `What, were you then mocking Allah, His signs and His Messenger? Make no excuses. You have disbelieved after your belief.``` (9:67-68) The commentators say, ``You have disbelieved`` refers to what they have said about the Messenger of Allah.

We have already mentioned the consensus. As for the traditions, al-Husayn ibn `Ali related from his father that the Messenger of Allah said in respect of this matter, ``Whoever curses a Prophet, kill him. Whoever curses my Companions, beat him.``[7]

In a sound hadith the Prophet commanded that Ka`b ibn al-Ashraf be killed. He asked, ``Who will deal with Ka`b ibn al-Ashraf? He has harmed Allah and His Messenger.`` He sent someone to assassinate him without calling him to Islam, in distinction to other idol-worshippers. The cause of that lay in his causing harm to the Prophet. That indicates that the Prophet had him killed for something other than idol-worship. It was for causing harm. Abu Rafi,` who used to harm the Messenger of Allah and work against him, was also killed.

Similarly on the Day of the Conquest, he ordered the killing of Ibn Khatal and his two slavegirls who used to sing his curses on the Prophet.

In another hadith about a man who used to curse the Prophet, the Prophet said, ``Who will save me from my enemy?`` Khalid said, ``I will,`` so the Prophet sent him out and he killed him.

end of quote (extract from Qadi Iyad`s Ash-Shifa)

Re Asif Naqshbandi (#439):

When Quran tells me something in clear language, I am going to stick with it, no matter what you or your “ullema” say! You have ignored the Quran and continue to chase obscure, questionable historical records to support your fanaticism. Quran gives us perfect knowledge, and all else is questionable (read this sentence again, if you did not follow it). You have given preference to the works of jahil “mullahs” over the word of God. What good is Quran if you ignore it and do the opposite simply because of what a mullah says? As a side-comment, there have been Muslim scholars throughout the ages who have disagreed with your position on this issue. However this not the crux of my argument.



With jahil mullahs like you around, it is no wonder that the Muslims of the world are in their current pathetic state. Their theories of jihad, jurisprudence, social norms and more have become corrupt, and that’s why they have been subjugated by other nations in all walks of life. Quran did not fail them … rather they did not make the effort to understand Quran.

Such jihalat was rampant when fanatic “scholars” like you persecuted the Prophet of Islam (pbuh), when scholars declared Issa-ibne-Marriam an impostor, when scholars declared Gallileo a heretic. Majority has been clearly wrong in the past … and it continues to happen even today. You fail to understand even this basic point. Your dogma has completely blinded you and turned you into a dogmatic mullah.

There is no power in this world that can make you understand if you ignore the clear Quranic teachings and continue to chase obscure historical records and listen to corrupt mullahs.

Asad

What you are basically saying is that your interpretation of the qur`an--based on your own (lack of) knowledge is correct and ALL the scholars in Muslim history are wrong INCLUDING those the Sahaba, Taba`in, Taba` Taba`in, Salaf as Saliheen! Well that is what a person who is arrogantly deluded thinks. Tell me, what makes your understanding of the Qur`an better?! Do you know more about Islam than Hazrat Abu Bakr and Hazrat Umar? Hazrat Uthman? Hazrat Ali? Hazrat Abdullah ibn Abbas?..etc.

The scholars are all humans and can be wrong...but you CANNOT be wrong?! Any sane person would rather trust what experts over 1400 years have continuously been saying rather than what an upstart, who i bet doesn`t even know the Arabic language, believes to be right simply because it doesn`t agree with his ideology (which is obviously beholden to western thinkers!). Well, I thought i could have a decent, intelligent debate with you on this matter but obviously not. You have your mind made up. you are happy to consign 1400 years of the most pious muslims ever to the rubbish bin to prove your own position to be right!

And then you show faulty logic by using totally unrelated issues such as Galileo`s heliocentric theory of the solar system in your argument; what has that got to do with the issue AT HAND?!

that is not an issue of aqeedaH--the respect of the Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam IS.

When Allah says, ``We have EXALTED for you your fame.`` Wa rafa`na laka dhikrak!``

Anyway I see that discussing with you is pointless until you learn the correct Islamic adab of respect for elders and admit that there are and were people who know infinitely more than us about islam.

Asif Naqshbandi Sahib (Re #437):

The scholars that you refer to are humans … and are prone to errors. Preference should be given to the Quran over the works of any ``scholar”. Quran was revealed not only for the “scholars”, but for all the believers, who are commanded to study and practice it. Quran is explicit in punishment for theft, adultery, treason and more. It is also clear in commanding the believers to stop socializing with those who blaspheme. The answer is quite clear!

Now, Qazi Ayad and others may twist the meaning of some verses, incorrectly apply some obscure ahadith and equally obscure rules of Arabic language, draw questionable inferences, make obscure references, and come up with completely opposite teachings. These are their teachings, and not the message of Allah. Quran is very clear on where it stands on the issue of blasphemy. It would make more sense if you completely give up studying the Quran and instead limit yourself to studying the works of the ullema only. That is exactly what you are doing anyway.

One can dedicate his life to studying an issue, and still remain a “jahil”. If the scholars deserve such high authority, then tell me why did such scholars oppose the Prophet of Islam (pbuh)? Why did such scholars declare Issa-ibne-Marriam an impostor? Why did such scholars condemn Gallileo for declaring earth revolves around the sun? You have kept silent on this issue. The answer is simple … these scholars were corrupt and they had twisted the teachings of the scripture. Same is the case with Qazi Ayad and others of his sort.



It is interesting to note the Blasphemy Laws in Pakistan were invoked when the nation was (and still is) at a low point … economically, socially, politically. The best the enlightened ullema could do at such trying times was to come up with Blasphemy Laws! Most of the country is still living in poverty with rampant corruption at all levels. There exists no infrastructure for education, medicine, R&D, urban and rural development, or any progress of any kind … these are signs that the nation is not following the message of Allah. Implementation of Blasphemy Laws further confirms absence of Islam from the society. I’ll remind you again that if Muslims of Pakistan and other nations were following correct Quranic teachings, they would not be in their current state of mess. Clearly Islam is the missing ingredient from the Muslim societies. This is the main reason of their downfall and this reason will keep them tucked in the bottom of the social order across the world. This is what happens when we ignore Quran and start following the teachings of these scholars.

Asad

sattar2 sahib,

if you had read the link i gave you will have seen that these scholars arrived at their verdicts [and ``these`` btw means virtually every single scholar from the time of the Prophet alayhisalatosalam till now] BASED ON THE QUR`AN and HADITH. you seem to imply that these scholars of religion did not read and understand the Qur`an properly-despite devoting their lives to it--and yet, you, 1400 years later, understand it more than all the hundreds of thousands of scholars before. Come on! The reason i didn`t paste the relevant section was that it is lengthy and i assumed you would at least be open-minded enough to read it.

Re Asif Naqshbandi Sahib (#435):

In your defense of Blasphemy Laws, you cited the support of the majority of Muslim scholars who agree with you. This issue should be resolved by using one’s common sense in the light of Quranic teachings, and not by a popular vote among “scholars”. Quran should be given preference over the works of any “scholar”. I hope you agree with me here.

It is worth noting that when Prophet (pbuh) started out on his mission to convey the message of Allah, majority of people and scholars were against him. When Gallileo declared that earth revolved around the sun, the majority of religious scholars condemned him. When Jesus Christ (pbuh) claimed to be the Messiah, the majority of Jewish scholars declared him an impostor. So, tell me … why should I ignore the teachings of Quran and follow the “majority” opinion in this case?



On at least two occasions Quran asks believers to sever social ties with those who blaspheme against signs of Allah (4:140 and 6:68), without prescribing any punishment for blasphemy. The dear Prophet (pbuh) forgave those who blasphemed against him on several occasions. Some well-known examples are the events of the city of Taif and at the conquest of Mecca.

You have ignored the obvious teachings of Quran and sunnah and instead chosen to follow these “scholars” who have passed verdicts counter to the Quranic teachings. If the Muslims of the world are following Quran properly, they would not be in their current state of misery. Think about it. Look at the condition of any present day Muslim country and you’ll see my point. Either Muslims of the world are not following Quran correctly, or Allah has forgotten His promise of success and glory for those who follow the message of Quran. Take your pick!

Quran teaches us the message of peace and patience. You, on the other hand, seem to be blindly following the mullahs who are giving you not the message of piety and patience, but the message of violence and barbarism … all in the name of Islam.

Asad

Sattar2 wrote:

[This is quite a contrast from earlier posts on other boards where you justified Blasphemy Laws on basis that the Prophet (pbuh) had people killed for blaspheming against him. In other words, anyone who blasphemes against the Prophet (pbuh) should be put to death according to your understanding of Islam.]

Actually it is not my understanding of Islam which says that the insulter of the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam in an Islamic state should be killed if found guilty. That has been how traditional Sunni Muslims have *always * understood it from the Prophet`s own blessed era right through till today. And since Sunnis have always been in the vast majority, that means most of the Muslims have felt the same. In fact, I believe even in classical Shi`ite religious texts the punishment for the insulter of the Prophet alayhisalatosalam is also death. Even, Ibn Taymiyya, with his heterodox views on many issues--who is the scholar whom the Wahabis look to ideologically--on this issue is totally in agreement with mainstream Sunni orthodoxy. He wrote a book on this topic entitled, ``As-Sayf al Maslool `alaa shaatim ar-Rasul`` [The Unsheathed Sword Upon the Insulters of The Messenger]. * * In short my point is that this is not my personal opinion but what Muslims have traditionally believed from the early days of Islam right across the spectrum of Muslim sects * * * . The sole exception has been the handful of secularised modernists who have appeared in the 20th century and who want to secularise Islam to make it more compatible with the ideology of their Western heroes. They will be less than 1% if counted--if that!They do not represent mainstream Muslim thought. Those whom I have listed do.

For a scholarly and intelligent discussion of this issue which covers all the angles I guide you and anyone else to the excellent exposition by Qadi Iyad al Maliki al Yahsubi in his seminal work ``Ash-Shifa bi ta`rif Huquq al Mustafa (alayhisalato wa thanaa) which has been excellently and painstakingly translated into English by Aisha Bewley. The detailed article which is *the * classical orthodox exposition of this issue is available online at



http:// www.masud.co.uk

click on the section entitled, ``In honour of The Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam)``. Then scroll down till you come to the article I just mentioned. It is called, ``Excerpts from the Shifa` of Qadi Iyad: Part Four:`` and has 10 sections.

Of course I agree with the view elucidated in that article by Qadi Iyad [d. 1149 CE] that the insulter of Allah`s Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam is to be killed as this is the view of the orthodox Muslims.

And it is therefore, you, who is mistaken on this view. May Allah guide us all.

Gowardhan #428 ``Are Pakistanis confused? ...Now this Pakistani is crying that his only son was killed by terrorists and his back is broken.``

Pakistanis may or may not be confused. But you are definitely scum. No half-way decent individual would cooment in this manner about a father mourning for his son.

Sridhar,

I will make two quick comments, and come back later to expand on them, if you would want me to do so.

1. The concept of ummah is NOT a justification for anything, by Muslims or by non-Muslims. It is not a concept shared equally by every Muslim. Not by a long shot. I am well aware that some effort has been made recently to turn this somehow nebulous community of Ummah into a world-wide standing army of men, but there is no way that effort is going to go anywhere. Why? Because it does not make sense, and has never really made sense to Muslims. Just like Hindus are not just Hindus, Muslims are not just Muslims. Yes, from some close interaction with Muslims I can say that they do have a certain feeling of kinship and community, just as you and I may have a feeling of kinship with Hindus in Fiji or in Jawa. But that does not imply collective marching into an abyss. Please think about it; despite the fact that the talk of ummah creates some apprehension, we shouldn`t let it cloud our vision.

2. Sridhar, it is not a matter of which country is greater. See, all of us feel that our country is great. Many Pakistanis will naturally find the branch and tree analogy you suggested offensive. Wouldn`t you, if you were a Pakistani?

Sridhar, I dont recall exactly what ``complex`` Ferozek mentioned a few days ago, but he made an interesting point that the last thing Pakistanis want to feel is to be dominated by India. We have to understand historical reasons for it, and take into account national sensitivities. Even if you feel/we feel like a big brother, then we should learn to behave like one.

My opinion is that Pakistan is facing a great many problems - a fact many smart Pakistanis themselves realize. It is a country with more potential than it has had to show for its fifty plus years. The same charge could be made convincingly against India, though you and I, being Indians, will argue that we are a bit ahead. But that is not such a big deal. Countries go through ups and downs. For all you know, Pakistan may soon be sitting atop a few cool American billions, and you and I will be tearing our hair in jealousy! :)

Are Pakistanis confused? They tell us that terrorists are freedom fighters. Now this Pakistani is crying that his only son was killed by terrorists and his back is broken. Lock him up for treason and bringing Pakistani Islam in shame.

http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/02/letted.htm

An appeal

My son, Adnan Abid, 23, was a final year student in the Medical Academy of Bishkaka City, Kyrgyzstan.

On August 25, he was murdered by terrorists there. Adnan was my only son and was the hope for my old age. The death of my son has broken my back.

I request the president of Kyrgyzstan to bring the terrorists who killed my son to book.

ABID HUSSAIN

Gujranwala