India’s Communal Gamble

Eklavya:

So you are one! No wonder you are always trying to be Mr. Friendly to all the mullahs and pathans. Just watch out, they are proven backstabbers, but who knows you may enjoy that.

Soysause:

I am guessing, but that sentence sounds very fruity. May be you should ask Eklavya.

soysauce,

Could you clarify the point you made about members of different faiths being able to live together peacefully as members of those faiths? What, in your view, are the main difficulties?

Ref salwari #: 233

[In your post to YLH you seem to be mistaken about certain things.]

Not at all. I am trying to fill in the lapses in education that YLH has.

[History is filled with brutal rule of the strong over the weak.]

Good. Let us all accept that the heeng-laden hindoos are stronger than the saffron-eating Kashmiri Muslims and so the Kashmiris will have to stay under the heels of Indians. So stop shedding crocodile tears for the Kashmiris. I also notice that those tears are reserved only for the Muslims but not for the pundits who have been cleansed out of the Kashmir valley.

[And to an extent Indian History is out to demonize anything ancient and non-hindu.]

I am quoting factual evidence that you can see with your own eyes today. If that demonizes Islamic rule, tough sh!t.

[I feel that a foreign intrusion in those times were very important in building a stable and modern society today. Afghanistan was largely kept rural since the beginning, and faced no internal or external pressure to change, do better, and exploit dormant human or material resources.]

Exactly what kind of stable and modern society has been built in Pakistan for you to make this statement?

[There is a lot of cultural diversity in India today because of that.]

That cultural diversity exists by chance, not by design. The history of Islamic culture is not one of accommodation in India but the destruction of everything that existed in India. The latest manifestation of that is the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas. So, don`t try to whitewash historical crimes. These crimes were also the sole reason for the founding of Pakistan: the theory that there will be retribution at the hands of the hindoos for centuries of Islamic thuggery. So, don`t try to have it both ways.

[One more thing, Brutality is just that. It is not justifiable under any circumstances. If it has been done to your forefathers, quit getting a perverse pleasure out of being a victim because it is too far fetched.]

The only pleasure I derive is watching you contort yourself into strange shapes trying to defend the indefensible.

[Some really ignorant people think that Pakistan should hold and house every non-Pakistani who happens to be a Muslim in order to justify its existence.]

No, I just taunt the basic foundation of Pakistan`s existence. And there is and can be no reasonable response to my taunts.

[Your statements are a representation of a vast majority of Indians who have nothing but suspicion for the Indian Muslims.]

The vast majority of Indians don`t care two hoots about their fellow Indians. They are too busy trying to survive. So, imagine what you want about Indians.

[If a Pakistani would have said the same thing about Hindus in Pakistan, you would have made this an international issue of human rights violations.]

There ARE Hindus in Pakistan? Ha, ha, ha. That is a good one.

I understand that the few who remain call themselves Husain or Ali in public so that they don`t have to disclose their identity. Compare that to Zafar from India, who doesn`t call himself Kishanchand to survive.

Ref xxabbu #: 250

[We will not let the crimes of the DEAD revisit the LIVING. Get off playing the victim, for chrissakes. Its been a long time since.]

Well, in that case, is it too much to ask you and your cohorts not to talk about the Babri Masjid? Or, since the criminals are still alive, it is an issue that you can raise whenever you want?

YLH was ranting about the mistreatment of Muslims in India and I just gave him a comparison to show him that Indian Muslims are enjoying better rights that Hindus did under Muslim rule. With your own country in the state it is in, you should all shut up about the citizens of other countries and see what you can do about ahmadiyyas, shias and honor killings -- favorite topics for Jay.

[You arent doing anyone a favour by letting them live in India.]

We live under a system of laws in India. Our constitution permits everyone who was born in India after 1947, and those who were born before but have not renounced Indian citizenship, the right to live as a free citizen. I am not doing anybody any favor by letting them live in India. It is their constitutional right and I will defend that right.

My right to free speech also means that I can say what I want -- particularly, when it is factually correct -- and if you don`t like history lessons, go bury your head in sand. Sand from Arabia, I am told, is superior for this purpose compared to sand from the Thar desert.

[Now shoo, go back into the hole you came from.]

How about going back to your madrassah and training some more folks to fly into buildings?

Aisha:

``If a Pakistani would have said the same thing about Hindus in Pakistan, you would have made this an international issue of human rights violations.``

Not really. We would in fact take is as the norm. We don`t have any higher expectations from Pakistan vis-a vis the Hindus. In any case, why the hell should India care about Hindus rotting in Pakistan. They had a chance to come in 1947, and didn`t. Feel free to treat them as you will.

Re: Eklayva

``What specific changes would you suggest in Indian and Pakistani constitutions?``

Pakistan doesn`t believe in the concept of a constitution. How many times have they thrown theirs out or put it on hold? Before someone can make changes to it, it would help if it was actually upheld. No?

Mr. Makhfi

Welcome to Chowk.

I am extremely sorry about your (Muslim) predicament in India. Sometimes the faults of the forefathers come haunt the coming generations for centuries. Only time has told how right the concept of Two Nations Theory was and how right was the decision of our forefathers who chose to make Paksitan, rather than living with Hindus. I see that Muslims who chose to live with Hindus have been turned into living deads, who can not even complain about the tyrrany of Hindu. Those who choose to raise their voice against this tyrrany are summarily sentenced to death as in Kashmir. For a Muslim in India there is no judge, no jury, no conscience, no mercy, no law but the law of the gun.

My Indian Muslim brothers and sisters, as a Paksitani, I am standing in front of you, today, ashamed, broken, and beat. I have lost my own country to neo-colonialists recently. I am sorry, I can not be your savior, your Mahmood Ghaznavi, your Salahuddin. But I assure you that the phoenix will rise from its ashes; I assure you our mothers and sisters are not sterile to stop giving birth to another Mahmood, another Ghauri, another Salahuddin. The flame is burning. Only one candle, no matter how small it may be, is always enough for all the darkness of the universe.

seimpreciousme #264
`` ?.sigh?..tit for tat and you resort to name-calling?.very disappointing, especially coming from you?``

Join the club. You can use this to good purpose, I suggest that you`all hold a convention and collect money for childrens education back in your native countries or WTC victims or some such noble cause..

sadna

semipreciousme #185

{``and sadna, yes the biased, prejudiced and bigoted pakistani media is incomparable to the just, impartial and equitable indian media…the greatest thing since velcro….sliced bread even, right?``}

``Considering that I posted a number of posts dumping on the Indian media and Hindu-Muslim issues on the Ali Minai board, I donot plan to explain myself further to idiots.``

….sigh…..tit for tat and you resort to name-calling….very disappointing, especially coming from you…

jay #249:

``Pakistan disowns Harkat dead``

I think it is shameful. Crapistan did the same thing during Kargil, when it refused to accept the dead bodies of even its soldiers, not to mention the `mujahideen`. They have no pride, no shame. It was left to the Indian army to give the dead Pak soldiers an (Islamic) burial in the snow.

The Crappie govt thinks that if it denies, everyone will believe them. But then, this behaviour can be traced back to when Crapistan`s birth when `tribal lashkars` attacked and occupied what is now POK.

Reply Babu # 244

“Indian Muslims had one chance at secession. That was in 1947. A lot of other Hindu groups could claim that they never had a chance at self-determination.”

Now why isn’t living in a functioning democracy a realised chance at self-determination?

“Right now there are no Indian Muslims attempting secession.”

Let’s keep it that way. A good place to start would be to stop treating Indian Muslims differently from the way other Indians are treated. I also think that a functioning democracy is a good vehicle to resolve any problems a society experiences without violence.

Zafar

Reply Eklavya #: 246

“Zafar, in India we have a LOT of people (more Hindus than Muslims since the former constitute the majority) who share the cant-trust-the-other attitude. These people are the source of our greatest weakness. This weakness is internal, native, our very own. It is real. It is better, for me, for you, and for all Indians, to be cognizant of it than to underestimate it in any way, shape, or form.”

I agree Eklavya, but I think that asking people to examine WHY they hold certain beliefs is a good place to start.

Zafar

re asif n 231

I understand that Amir-ul-Momineen Mullah Omar, Conqueror of Statues and Master of a Hundred Wives is looking for an Economics Minister. Make sure you apply. Since they don`t have much of an economics, you`d have plenty of time to write your own Mein Kampf too. Good luck

Reply Soysauce # 251

Re: UCC

The acceptance of a UCC is often seen as an indicator of how Indian (or un-Indian) Indian Muslims are and wish to be – a largely symbolic issue. It may well be a symbolic issue for non-Muslim Indians or for Indian Muslim men, but for Indian Muslim women the lack of a UCC is something which causes concrete hardship. At its core it is a civil rights issue. This nebulously understood, and midievally defined, “separate Indian Muslim identity” is being payed for by the usual suspects and is being exploited for their own advantage by the usual suspects.

Zafar

Honestly, I thought I didn`t send the post, because the grandmother thing was not very deep. That was mean: Rsaxena is known to have O.J instincts. But, anyway, thanks for appreciating my post, though I don`t know which one you are talking about.

``Dial an insult? Be brave, say it here in open forum. Rule 0 of discussion forums : Donot ask those whom you are cursing to mail you for more.``

I thought you are the one who complained about me telling you off on a public forum? :)

Later,

Aisha

DostMittar, Zafar

I did not mean it to apply to predominantly Christian, Jewish Hindu Buddhist, etc. countries, but to Pakistan specifically and Islamic countries generally.

“Wouldn`t it be enough if secularism is based on just universal moral principles without reference to any religion?” An example of the Subjective secularism, a profanation. (And a dead give away of our opposite approach) (And a call for a new religion?)

Dost, recall that the experience of secularization is not a new one. It was thought that religion would not survive secularization in the West. In Euro-Asia, a tragic experiment of secularization without religion was effected for some 70 years, if my numbers are correct. As soon as the experiment was over, religions not only emerged intact, but also look at the growth of the Orthodox Church and Islamic revival. Or look at the strength fo religion in the US. Something about religion creates an attachment, something about a spiritual void. Does it have to be an organized religion or spirituality? well, a rose of any other name, is the attitude I take with reference to that notion. After all, why has Hinduism, after multitude of changes, bending, flexing, branching, rationalized, intellectualized, demystified, still an powerful appeal to it’s adherents? It must be fulfilling some void that regardless of whatever challenges it faces, it reinvents, recasts itself and is again relevant to significant numbers of lives. This appeal is the spiritual voids it fills. Try and kill religion all you like, has not worked before or ever. Even your question “just universal moral principle” is call to fill that spiritual void; consider, where was such language and concepts first developed if not in religion?

Of course You have not asked me how minorities would fare, if we deviate from objective secularism and concentrate on Subjective secularism, that is profanation - I know you were saving this for later. I wish to make two interrelated points:

1. My contention that the emphasis on subjective secularism is used against Islam, in India. This is because it is susceptible to it, given its structure as an Abrahamic faith and the genus of secularism from within an Abrahamic faith. Hinduism is not susceptible similarly, as it does share the structure of the Abrahamic faiths. Indeed, to the degree that it can be said to be organized, a rather convincing argument can be made that it does not have a structure or that it has a very fluid structure. The same cannot be said of any Abrahamic faith. In the US, it is objective secularism that finds emphasis, with ACLU type organizations, performing both a watchdog and promoter of Subjective secularism role, curiously to ensure the differentiation in Objective secularism. In The Indian context, in my opinion, calls for cultural nationalism are precisely an attempt to marginalize Islam and the Indian Muslim experience. Profanation is inherent in the secularizing experience, yet it is the degree of such infiltration that is culturally important, as is reflected by the author.

I don’t want to be misunderstood on this point, Therefore, I want to emphasize that I am simply expressing an opinion and not a prescription for Indian society, culture, group or whatever. No offense intended to anyone.



2. This is a most interesting question and if you agree, lets set aside an approach from a view of religious pluralism, salvic pluralism leading to religious tolerance as a religious and societal value. Lets look at this again in the context of Objective and Subjective secularism.

Secularism is an example of modernization (a response to increasing complexity), in which differentiation of religion from economic and political institutions. This differentiation can also apply to the separation of religion from culture and conscience. Therefore there can be two meaning of secularism or alternately we can view it as a dichotomy of Objective versus Subjective secularism. On a psychological and cultural level, what was once sacred both in the psychological and in the cultural sense is now open to the profane.

What space then does religion or the sacral in this context occupy? Religious revivalism is effort to anticipate, adjust and respond to changes linked with the dichotomy and a response to profanation. Given the increasing complexity and the compartmentalization of experience, religion will not again be the same force or play the same role it did in society and in person’s lives. Therefore, you witness, an evolving religiosity, deeply private and yet ecumenical (Ummah). Revivalism is an apt description, because the renewed emphasis on purpose, order, justice, and salvation. Nevertheless, Why? With increasing complexity of life, religion offers it adherents a melieu to seek answers to the question of meaning in their lives. Perhaps, Perhaps, secular differentiation of institutions may be a function of religion (Kernel without the husk?)

Dost, I realize some of this is rambling but perhaps you will ideas to refine the thinking.

Zafar - please view my statement about the indian version of secularism win the context of the Objective and Subjective and tell me if it makes sense to you, Do you find any validity in as an analytical tool?

``Bhaijaan, if you chat with guests the way you sometimes post on Chowk I am convinced that Bhabhiji has her work cut out for her.``

I`m affraid it`s true. Need to change focus or go to school or something -