India’s Communal Gamble

soysauce #251
`` The issue of hindus & muslims being able to live together is a complicated one from the pov`s of both hindus & muslims. The real question, i think, is can hindus & muslims live together as hindus & muslims?``

According to me at the basic level, its not. The parameters for `living` together are already broadly laid out in the Constitution : Hindus and Muslims are supposed to be perfectly equal in sight of law, we have the same fundamental rights, the same right to safety of life and limb, we are indistinguishable in everything except the personal law and control of educational/religious institutions(if I am right). Anyone who does not believe these fundamentals in the Indian Constitution is a Paki, as far as I am concerned.

Now the question arises about things not so `fundamental`.. Suppose, as Imam Bukhari has once suggested, there is a demand for reserved seats in legislatures for Muslims. Well, this has to be looked into as a possible `solution` this may solve some problems, though I am very much inclined against retooling the relations of Hindu-Muslims at this level. And how about affirmative action. I come from a state which has had affirmative action for Muslims for many years, as all affirmative action, its a remedy for a time and place and I think it should be seriously considered in states which donot have them. I think the BJP was considering a poll alliance with a `backward Muslim` party in UP with promise of reservations.

`` A lot of the serious obstacles are swept under and it`s the muslim indian who is accused of being in the way of enacting UCC. I suspect that to the muslim community talk of UCC is the first step in stripping them off their muslimness. You`d allow, i hope, that even many self-professed (there`s that term again, well, i do profess to be a secularist)secularists, want a UCC``

The UCC (working towards which is a directive principle of the Constitution) can happen only with a national consensus. I spent a lot of time on Sulekha convincing myself that the BJP, who brought up the UCC issue is not serious/sincere about it. I say this because it has not reached out to the Muslim community or public at large to build up the support base required for a Constitutional amendment. I have not heard of BJP contacting any Muslim organisations to exchange point of views or get their support, even progressive Muslim organisations which may be in favor of UCC. I donot see BJP reaching out to public at large to disseminate information on the issue. I have not heard of any concerted Muslim membership drives in the BJP, or efforts to make Muslims feel more welcome in the BJP. I believe a responsible political party with belief in its manifesto and determination to make things happen should do all this if it claims to be interested in the welfare of the Muslim community. All I have heard(as a member of ordinary public) is accusations against the minorities related to UCC. Never heard of a law passed by recrimination, is this how you work toward 2/3 majority in Parliament and consent in state legislatures?

Hence I have reached the conclusion that the Hindutva parties are as indifferent about UCC as any such-minded imam say, except in their hypocrisy about it. For the Hindutva parties who claim to be thinking about equal rights for `poor Muslim women`, the UCC issue is a false issue, a tool of accusation only, to put minorities on the defensive and put a gloss on themselves, as in ``if you donot agree with us you are less Indian than us``.

As far as I am concerned, I am not playing their game. A need for UCC must come from inside the communities affected, and as Indians concerned about other Indians, as citizens we have to work for it, but through throwing light on and understanding the issues and reaching out, not through accusations.

anNy #252
``pukistan indeed.. god bless and help you``

`Interacting` with many chowk Pakistanis on this board has led me to this honest conclusion. And I certainly hope I am one-sided, its better than being a hypocrite.

Reply Bapu #:229

Deepika/Lajwanti/Fatimah/whatever

“You are the one who has written about 10 posts on Sulekha deriding that Islam does not have INTROSPECTION,I dont believe that.”

You are obviously working under the assumption that if you throw enough muck it will stick. Apna aim sahi karthe tho shayad…

But now that you mention it, I thought the writing style of “American Psychiatrist” sounded very familiar. Was that you? Are you now posting under the name of “American Psychiatrist”?

More power to you if you are! I take it as a salute to the idea of academic achievement.

Zafar

PS Joke tho nahin thha? If so LOLROTFL (!!!) great sense of humour, you really had me going there.

Reply Hobbyty # 224

“After which my beautiful bride cleverly managed to change the subject to events and trends in Pakistan.”

Bhaijaan, if you chat with guests the way you sometimes post on Chowk I am convinced that Bhabhiji has her work cut out for her.

:-)

“So many Indians on these boards swear by their version of secularism. A version in which promises to create an Indian Identity but which from my perspective, is dedicated to creating culturally Hindu Indian identity.”

Hinduism IS part of India’s identity. But so is Islam, and Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Sikhism….of course kebabs are more important, but still.

“A cheap shot, Unworthy of you, because you could have dealt with the substance of my response not the validity of my right to a point of view.”

Nahin, dekhiye, ghussa math hona….uff, Hobbyty, ek hi panga mara poore post men…

“.. I honor the civil course you seek, yet I question if such a course will be efficacious against fascist thugs.”

If we allow fascist thugs to define our world views, they have in a very profound way won the contest to shape the world.

“ISI Check? - It`s in the mail.”

Thank you, thank you, sirji, thwadda paani seva karunga…

“…I may be no friend...”

Be ashamed Hobbyty. That was nasty.

Zafar

sadna,

``its hard for me to ignore that you`re the one of those who turns up to defend ali1 after his beautiful and classy posts. However, this will not prevent me from replying to him whenever he deserves it.``

have i asked you not to answer ali`s posts? no i have not.. all i asked was for you to stop referring to my country as pukistan..like i also pointed out, its below you..if ever there was any doubt about your one sidedness, its this..pukistan indeed..

god bless and help you

#236 Sadhana

``But according to me, Indians speaking to each other or on the communal issue in India, have to accept the basic premise that Hindus and Muslims can live together. I consider whose who donot accept this basic premise are Pakistan-sympapthizers or Pakistanis at heart, irrespective of their religion. I have called Hindus who seem to reject this premise (of Hindus and Muslims being able to live together) Pakistanis or Pakistani/TNT sympathizers, and I donot see why I should not call Muslims that too, if they donot accept this basic premise at the core of the Indian nation(though I would do that with much more circumspection I assure you).``

I have seen you make this point elsewhere also. The issue of hindus & muslims being able to live together is a complicated one from the pov`s of both hindus & muslims. The real question, i think, is can hindus & muslims live together as hindus & muslims? To many hindus (an alarmingly increasing number) it is possible provided muslims aren`t quite, ahem, muslim. Many of these (by & large well-intentioned, not RSS, VHP types) believe that a uniform civil code is a necessity. This i think is the result of increasing polarization/politicization at the subconscious level. The problems are who frames that code, how much of the muslim code (personal law, common law, etc.) would be included in such, etc. A lot of the serious obstacles are swept under and it`s the muslim indian who is accused of being in the way of enacting UCC. I suspect that to the muslim community talk of UCC is the first step in stripping them off their muslimness. You`d allow, i hope, that even many self-professed (there`s that term again, well, i do profess to be a secularist)secularists, want a UCC. In many ways india faces difficulties that no other nation has faced in trying reconcile divergent cultures under a single flag. I don`t know what the answer is. I think tho that ``anyone who doesn`t believe that hindus & muslims can live together is a paki`` is a bit too facile. There are always conditions laid down for such a coexistence at the conscious or subconscious level and they are not the usual social contract thing either.

Harimau #189

``Your heroes, the Muslim sultans of Delhi, not only destroyed every single temple in Northern India, they terrorized the priests to such an extent that even in the tiny little temples that Hindus built to practice their faith surreptitiously, there were no pujas according to the scriptures for close to 30 generations.``

``So long as that is not being done in India, your co-religionists have far more rights than the Hindus had for 1000 years under the heel of Islamic thugs.``

We will not let the crimes of the DEAD revisit the LIVING. Get off playing the victim, for chrissakes. Its been a long time since. You arent doing anyone a favour by letting them live in India. Now shoo, go back into the hole you came from.

xxabbu

LIVE TRUTH AND DEAD JIHADIST

It has become quite common fpr the pak army, to disown their own. Return of the kargill invasion.

Pak disowns Harkat dead

Mubashir Zaidi and Agencies

(Islamabad/New Delhi, Oct 24)





Despite an official ban by Islamabad against letting in the bodies of 35 Pakistani militants killed by US airstrikes in Afghanistan, eight of the corpses were on their way to Rawalpindi and Karachi for burial on Wednesday night.

All the dead were members of the terrorist group Harkat-ul-Mujahideen

re: dost-mittar # 238

Dost-mittar,

If Hobbyty has some concrete ideas to suggest, we ought to gladly listen to him. Your query, therefore, is a valid one.

re: Faiza # 225

Faiza,

It is not easy to take many people along. It is very very difficult, particularly for those of us who have animalistic passions raging within us. The instinctive response is to hit back harder than the other can take, to demean, to destroy, to asperse, to generalize, to descend into questioning the legitimacy of the other`s birth, or doubting the morals of the other`s spouse, worse, mother.

I don`t know how others manage to maintain their cool, but for me, it is a constant, unending struggle. I don`t always succeed. Those who do have all my respect.

re: Zafar & Harimau

Harimau, I do not know you well enough to judge where you are coming from. So the following may not (probably does not) apply to you.

Zafar, in India we have a LOT of people (more Hindus than Muslims since the former constitute the majority) who share the cant-trust-the-other attitude. These people are the source of our greatest weakness. This weakness is internal, native, our very own. It is real. It is better, for me, for you, and for all Indians, to be cognizant of it than to underestimate it in any way, shape, or form.

re: hobbyty # 224

Hobbyty,

I agree with you that Indians, in general, have not thought more deeply about the issue of religion. How, in your view, can India and Pakistan better organize their polities to reflect and promote the kind of secularism you advocate? What specific changes would you suggest in Indian and Pakistani constitutions?

Re: sarwari

``If I was your grandmother I would make sure you get married to someone as unpleasent as Rsaxena so that only one house gets messed up insted of two.``

I`ve already contacted your local animal care center to offer you and your hubby-to-be a free neutering...public service measure.

gowardhan 211

Zafar Al-Talib 219:

My statement was ``Any attempt by Muslim minorities in India at secession and to practice Islam beyond the personal realm should be met with maximum force.``

My statement was in context of the bad examples set up by a wide range of contemporary Muslim states ranging from secular Indonesia/Turkey to Islamic Sudan/Saudi Arabia.

My point was two fold - secession and religion in public life.

Indian Muslims had one chance at secession. That was in 1947. A lot of other Hindu groups could claim that they never had a chance at self-determination.

Hinduism and Hindus have done a relatively good job of adapting to modern public life all around the world in spite of casteism and other social practices. (United Kingdom, USA, Malayasia, Singapore) Even when injustices are done like in Sri Lanka, the LTTE does not invoke religion to wage war. Religion and politics are kept separate. Muslims in the Islamic heartland (Morocco to Indonesia) seem to have major problems. There are a few exceptions like the PLO, Kurds, Berbers etc.

Right now there are no Indian Muslims attempting secession. In the future if there are grievances they must make sure

1) never call be the first to call for secession

2) keep religion out of any legitimate struggle

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re: InYourFace # 234

How can I know that until I have met you and examined your backside?

#234 InYourFace

Completely out of curiosity - is that established gay talk?