India’s Communal Gamble

Some general comments on discrimination around the world.

Indonesia which happens to be overwhelmingly Muslim Javanese prohibits Chinese (Christian/Buddhist) from using Chinese names, adopting Chinese customs and learning Chinese language. It is not an Islamic republic. Turkey prohibited Kurds from using Kurdish names, practising their culture and using their language. You could not use the word ``Kurd`` till recently. Kurds were called ``Mountain Turks``. Turkey is a secular state. Imagine Indian security forces enforcing similar rules on Indian Muslims.

Sudan declared Islamic law in mid 1980`s and converted country into war zone. 2 million plus non-Muslims have been killed, starved to death etc. Worse the oil drilled in the non-Muslim territorry are used to finance the war. I am sure Pakistanis won`t see any mention of this in their newspapers.

Lebanon had a 50% Maronite Christian majority. They are down to 30%. Look for the percentage to drop below 10% in 20 years. Egypt had 20% Coptic minority in the 1955. They are down to 7%. Bangladesh had 25% Hindu minority in 1971. Thanks to religious persecution they are down to 10%. Call it low intensity persecution.

Having said the above I would not advocate any reverse discrmination against Muslim minorities.

Any attempt by Muslim minorities in India at secession and to practice Islam beyond the personal realm should be met with maximum force.

Of course that also applies at a lower level to the Hindu majority in India.

Reply Hobbyty # 171

Hobbyty

Yaar, kabhi kabhi chakkar aane lagthe hain yeh sabh parh ke.

“Rsridhar says that Muslims can earn the gratitude of Hindus if they let them have the Babri?”

I don’t agree with him on this one. I think that the case must be settled in the courts, and then the courts findings must be implemented, regardless of what they are.

“In other words, without evidence, admit they are in error - and the the implications for the next demand? The Hindu God is more valid than a Masjid? After all muslims are not really indian or they did actually steal the land, or that only they did, rape and pillage? Cuz you do realize the demands will not end just with this Babri business, do you not? Earn their gratitude? while they write a history in which Muslims are foreigners? Invaders?”

To be fair, Hobbyty, I’m sure that Sridhar did not imply any of this in his posts. One needs to read them fully before jumping to conclusions.

“Are your Father, mother and their parents, Turks??? Do you look like a Turk??”

Er…actually….I kinda do…but that is not the point, is it?

“TNT was a conspiracy against the great Hindu nation and Pakistan is an abomination???”

Vaisai, TNT was a conspiracy against Indian Muslims by their “leaders” – big fish in small pond syndrome. But how does this follow from your earlier point?

“No such thing as a great Muslim nation in India?? No such thing as Muslim culture in India??”

There is an Indian nation which includes people of different religions. Why is that hard to accept?

“Islam in India is expected to be responsible for the extreme or unpopular ideas or acts, is Hinduism responsible for Shiv Sena, RSS, Bajrang Dal, etc??”

People are responsible for these things, Hobbyty. Just like people are responsible for driving a plane into the WTC. Not religions. People.

“Do newspapers reveal this? Islam, the face of terror! but the demolition of the Babri, an abberation? an act by a handful of extremist?”

Hobbyty, how many mainstream Indian papers or major Indian politicians have said that Islam is the face of terror. On the contrary they continue to irritate Bajrang Dal types by repeating the mantra (eeek! Did I say mantra?) “Islam is a religion of peace, Islam is a religion of peace…”

“imagine Maulana Fazul Rahman winning an election on a platform that call for the destruction of some temple, is actually elected and appointed to the second most powerful post in government. Well, sure, it could happen.”

This presupposes elections.

“Has any Indian Muslim had the cojones to say that Hindus could earn the gratitude of Muslims if they pulled out of Kashmir, and then did X and Y and Z?”

Who are you to say that? No Indian would earn my gratitude by pulling out of Kashmir – aren’t I a Muslim? Btw, they wouldn’t earn Imam Bukhari’s gratitude either – even if you doubt my authenticity surely he is a mohallahvaala above reproach.

“… you remain unwilling to call a spade a spade - and it only this, this confrontation, however one chooses to define the confrontation, either electoral, or awareness raising, something that will allow the nation to take a breath and realize the danger of Hindu nationalism - after all, If Hindu nationalism is a valid commodity, why aren`t the nationalism of non-Hindus valid?”

Who says religious nationalism of any kind is a good thing for India? The only nationalism there should be in India is Indian nationalism.

“This not about individual Hindus or individual Muslims, but rather about a ideological movement which is determined to stamp a Hindu identity upon India, now you are right that this the business of Indians, but please, please do not throw the rubbish about pluralistic , unique definition of secular democracy at us - it`s an insult to persons intelligence - by all means if that paradigm finds resonance or that ideal holds attraction, who are we in Pakistan to say, that is not valid, for you, just don`t tell us that is true for us as well.”

Yes, yes, that’s also a strong ideology in India, if it’s not true for you what is going to happen to your minorities?

“After all why is Ok to ban SIMI but not any Hindu organization involved in inciting communalism?”

Ban them all, I say.

“How secular is a government that wages a civil war aginst persons who choose to define their movement in religious terms? - Again, don`t get me wrong, why would a movement calling itself Islamic invoke such wrath in a supposedly ``secular`` polity? while movements that promote hindu values and identity provoke no such reflex?”

SIMI promotes the violent dissolution of the country, which is against the law. Muslim parties continue to function in India openly (and an Independence Party btw continues to function without let or hindrance in Indian Kashmir, unlike PoK) – but don’t seem to get much of a following from Indian Muslims. Now is it my fault that their ideology does not attract a following?

“Sadna has accused Asif and myself of attempting to bind Indian muslims in Ideological prostitution, you may even agree with this objectionable notion.”

Nobody’s offered to pay me yet. ISI saalaa check nahin bhejthe…

“Yet to say that unrest or an alienation among Muslims in India does not play into the hands of some in Pakistan would be less than truthful, however; this point of view completely disregards any sense of religious affinity and concern, it assumes all pakistani muslims who posit an opinion have nothing but Machiavellian motives. On the other hand, you are quite correct in saying that Pakistan as a whole cannot claim the right to speak for Muslims of India, however; it deny affinities is to deny reality.”

By the same token we have a natural concern about what happens in Pakistan – hence the comments on secularism, democracy, respect for minorities, etc. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

“Perhaps you are right but I cannot judge or come to conclusions with regard to the authors absence thus far. Tell me, what do results of the elections say? Faith in the inate goodness, fairness of the Indian electorate? perhaps this may sound like a cheeky question coming from a Pakistani, under military rule, yet, perhaps this will not disqualify it from consideration?”

People get the governments they deserve.

“Do not misunderstand me, I realize that india is big and complex, country but am I wrong in thinking that the magnitude of the problem (communal) has substantially increased? Actually, I am convinced it will continue to grow as india becomes a more complex economy, it`s built in to the structure of society and reflects in the constructs that animate it`s external relations.”

Yes and no. Some of the reactions to change and growth promote communalism. Other reactions to, and factors of, change and growth promote a secular approach to life. There is no one trend in any country – certainly as true of Pakistan as of India.

“Now if I may I should like to explain my impatience. Recently a couple of visitors were over, they had family in India and the conversation took that turn. They felt that I was not sufficiently aware of the wrath that their family and ordinary Muslims, most who they said lived as minorities in villages suffer when ever realtions with Pakistan are more tense than usual.”

This is true. But it’s not your responsibility. You should not have to mind what you say because we have failed to implement a fully secular policy in India.

“I informed them that a Bangladeshi friend of mine was in Bombay at the time of the riots and had told me of the kinds things Muslims suffered there.”

My grandmother and many relatives live in Bombay. You don’t have to tell me.

“My guests suggested that we in Pakistan need to be ever mindful of the vulnerablity that we expose our coreligionists and kin in India to, if we do not follow Indian leadership. I remain very upset that muslims in India are basically hostage and I find in attitude you are taking an acceptance of that hostage status.”

How so?

“Pakistan cannot do anything about it, but only Muslims in India can help themselves.”

Jee haan.

“It is clear to me that psychologically and culturally, they will find it very difficult to be Pakistanis, even if they had such a choice; one twelveth the size of India, Pakistani Muslims says don`t push us we will teach you a lesson to remember, while indian muslims, citizens of india, by all rights and privilage of heritage, Indian, are required to abandon their history and culture to ingratiate themselves and earn a place in line with other ``minorities``.”

What makes you think we have to abandon any portion of our history and culture? And how does our history and culture differ from other Indians` history and culture? Aren’t they the same? How are they different?

“Actually, I must apologise to you, I have been inconsiderate and the way you choose to see the world and yourself in it, is your business and none of mine.”

Kya kahthe ho bhai? At least you listen and dialogue rather than just scream insults. As the young people used to say about sixty zillion years ago: keep on truckin’.

Zafar

Reply Stuka, Bapu # 173, 178

“You had asked if Bapu Shah Bhardwaj Lazwanti had ever written introspective before? Well, I will reproduce his text. It may not be fully introspective, but it is the truth. Get past the hyperbole, and you will see the bitterness. I don`t know what the hell this guy is, of he`s Indian, Bihari stuck in Bangladesh whatever. I do know that this post is relevant, if not for him, than for the disfranchised Muslims of India.”

You’re right Stuka.

Bapu please accept my apology – sometimes you do write things which are insightful and it was wrong of me not to acknowledge that. (I still stand by what I said about introspection and the Islamic Renaissance, however.)

“AND PLZ SHOW ME ONE ASPECT OF HINDUISM WHICH IS INTROSPECTION OR SUPERIOR TO ISLAM.”

Bapu what does introspection by Muslims have to do with Hinduism?

Zafar

Reply Stuka # 167

Re: Hindutva

I agree that the right wing elite in India had no intention of actually giving political power to lumpens, but the fact is that having created a political vehicle fueled by these people the elite is less in control of them than it would like. That’s my point. Vaisai I agree that class is a greater functional determiner of power and affinity in India than religion or caste, at least for the elite.

Re:

Re: Mangley

It is a puzzle, and one we should think about, that communalism is alive and well in some of India’s most advanced states (Maharashtra, let’s not forget the Shiv Sena and the Bombay riots, after all, in India’s most “developed” city, and Gujarat) and is somewhat blunted in its poorest (Bihar). That’s why I think that communalism is not just an expression of poverty, but also of a disfunctional ideology.

What troubles me is that I do think that the BJP has some really sound things to offer India, but I think they’re a package deal (economic reform plus riots). If they’re going to change, they have to change from within and with the ideological blessings of the RSS.

Zafar

re: Hobbyty # 171

Hobbyty,

A very interesting post.

So what did you tell your Indian Muslim guests when they suggested that Pakistan needs to be mindful of the vulnerablity of Indian Muslims?

Reply Gowardhan # 135

Gowardhan – the article from Makhfi you posted is most interesting. A few things which perhaps people can clarify for me:

“Once said, it is believed and the belief is such that people may not cremate the dead for two months in the belief that the dead man is still alive but meditating, while the body in fact is decomposing.”

Hain? I’ve never heard of this. Has anybody else? Laash ko kahan rakhthe hain? Would there be anybody left to cremate the first dead person or would every one else have died from cholera?

“The Britishers are revered as the builders of Modern India, while the chief architects to lay the groundwork were the Turks.”

We were conquered by the Turks? Were we in the Ottoman Empire? Why didn’t anybody tell me??!!!

The Mughals would be the invaders least distant from Turks, being Turkmen speakers from Farghana, could this be what he was talking about? Very sloppy…

“The VHP through manipulation of historical research, in pursuance of its claim, has done a commendable job. Now members of the Bajrang Dal claim that they know the precise birth spot of Krishna that lies beneath the Idgah at Varanasi !”

Now my sneak previews of Amar Chitra Katha at friends’ houses (I wasn’t allowed comics, sigh) gave me to believe that Krishna was born in Mathura. True? Not true? Why hasn’t the Bajrang Dal been informed of this? (Given your handle I expect a FULL explanation of this point from you.)

“On the question of Ram temple, it seems that Ram has been monopolised by the Hindi speaking belt of North India.”

What? Ayodhya vaisai new invention hai kya? Ramlila men Ayodhya ka naam nahin likkha kya?

“A study of the Hindu history reveals that the temple worship was an alien of practice. None of the scriptures refer to them or lay on Hindus the duty of going to temple for worship of an image.”

My head is spinning now. What’s his point here?

“Mahabharata makes no mention of temple nor the word “Ayodhya” comes anywhere.``

Er...does the Mahabharata cover Ram`s story? I thought it didn`t...might that be why it doesn`t mention Ayodhya?

``It was more of a borrowed phenomenon from the practice of kins that people started going to temples to look at the image of diving potentate and to watch the ceremonials of his daily life, which were modelled on those of a king.”

Diving potentates? Nagarajas or scuba karne vaale?

Gowardhan Saheb, this man just seems peevish now. (Or the intellectual saathhi of our belowwwed Imam Bukhari.) But if I am wrong, please let me know. Otherwise I am EMBARRASSED that he is a Muslim. (God knows there’s plenty of room for criticism re: where Indian Muslims are today, but what provokes Chowk to publish stuff of this calibre when a simple look at an Encyclopedia would discredit the author’s ability to write knowledgeably on the subject?)

I must go and lie down now.

Zafar

Zafar,

Do you really think the Indian film industry is representative of the real India?

Do women really prance around half naked on the streets of India? Can Indian men still jump from 10 story buildings on their feet and their big poof hair styles intact?

That`s all the absurdities that I can remember as of now.

:)

Do you wish to retract your statement?

sadna, various posts,

Take a deep breath and relax. Anger won`t get you anywhere but to the path of physical self destruction (wrinkles on your pretty little face :).



Not once in any of my posts did I enhance Pakistan or patronize Indian Muslims. All I asked for was some appreciation of self criticism in response to this article.

As far as YLH and Sarwari are concerned, if they are unreasonably patriotic of Pakistan, they are vehemently critical of it as well.

Do you even bother reading anything written by Pakistanis other than what you WANT to read?

Soysauce, why are you finding fault with Sadna?

Her posts are valid. Have you seen her posts on complicity of Bombay police in the riots?

BTW, are you Indian or Pakistani?

And how come you are not finding fault with Zafar since he agrees completely with Sadna.

sadna various posts.

During the last three years that I have been

around this lunatic ward aka chowk,I have never seen you losing your cool inspite of personal insults heaped on you from all sides.I respect

your point of view and have observed your mostly

balanced views,but this time on this board you

have behaved unlike yourself.Relax and take it

easy.Things can`t be all that bad...unless your

monthly payments have been stopped by some Section

Officer in the MoD :))))

Regards

Sadna, you are a cool gal.

I am behind you 100%.

Ignore the nutcases I say.

Includes some Indians like Kiran. What drugs is he/she on?

sadna:

``thats what we Hindus plan for Pukistan.``

you stop referring to my beautiful country in this demeaning manner..i dont like it...

and its below you too

sigalph235 # 87

``When my grandparents moved from Murshidabad to Chittagong, trust me it was not as weekend tourists.``

Did you go to SPS ? When did you live there??

If you wish not to reply,I will understand.

Regards.

Semipreciousme #160,

Check again. Indian movies are banned.

Just because you can see Indian movies using smuggled video cassettes doesn`t mean they are not banned.

Semi, Sadna just called you an idiot

YLH:

In one of your interacts, you said that Indian Muslims are being terrorized and victimized in their daily lives.

Let me give you a little bit of an example. Hindu scriptures were never written down and were handed down orally from teacher to student, from generation to generation.

Your heroes, the Muslim sultans of Delhi, not only destroyed every single temple in Northern India, they terrorized the priests to such an extent that even in the tiny little temples that Hindus built to practice their faith surreptitiously, there were no pujas according to the scriptures for close to 30 generations.

The result is that worship in North Indian temples consist of showing the aarti (lighted lamp) to the idol followed by singing `Jaya Jagdeesh Hare`.

Go to South Indian temples and compare the elaborate rituals that are performed there to the pitiful state of affairs in North India.

Compared to this treatment of Hindus in their own land, you fcukers have been allowed to keep your Satanic Verses aka The Unholy Quran and your co-religionists have been running madrassahs all over India to propagate your religion.

Terrorizing the Mulim population would call for burning every copy of the Quran, demolishing every mosque, killing every maulana, and cutting off the tongue of anyone who dared to open his mouth to say `Bismillah`.

So long as that is not being done in India, your co-religionists have far more rights than the Hindus had for 1000 years under the heel of Islamic thugs.

So shut up about the treatment of minorities in India. They have your country to go to if they don`t like it in India but I don`t see a line in front of the Pakistan High Commission for visas.