India’s Communal Gamble

Re Eklavya 177

``We can fight darkness only with light, not with darkness.``

But on a technical note, it is possible to fight darkness with darkness, thanks to state-of-the-art night vision technology. :)

soysauce #170
``Seriously, you could have simply pointed out that the charges that the author makes are genuine and that he could have bolstered his case citing an indian source rather than the NYT.``

I did, in two posts at least :#27 and #28.

semipreciousme #185
``and sadna, yes the biased, prejudiced and bigoted pakistani media is incomparable to the just, impartial and equitable indian media…the greatest thing since velcro….sliced bread even, right?``

Considering that I posted a number of posts dumping on the Indian media and Hindu-Muslim issues on the Ali Minai board, I donot plan to explain myself further to idiots.

soysauce #170
``self-professed secularist``
Where have I ``self-professed`` and who are you to judge? I have not understood whats your problem? I`m a messenger, too, of my own views. Why are you trying to shoot me?

Genghis Khan: ``All ye muslims. Allah has sent you Genghis Khan to fight. Are you ready?``

Isnt Genghis the chap who build a tower of muslim heads in Baghdad? The bloke whose soldier one stopped a muslim traders caravan and told them not to dare to move while he went and fetched his sword with which to decap them? So what`s the deal now?

re shailendar #143:

Excellent post I must say. Plz. contribute more.

later

-sac

P.S: Don`t worry about the usual suspects polluting the interacts. Its the price one has to pay in order to have an open forum.

Shahid Akhter Makhfi,

I read your article and you make some valid points but have some facts wrong that have been pointed out by other on this board. I don’t think that Green tiles in the bathrooms are offensive. My bathroom has green tiles too, it just the décor we chose. Muslims don’t have a copyright on the color green. That said, I don’t disagree there are some Hindu fundamentalists who would like to drive us out of our country like the Pakistani’s drove the Hindus out of their country, but the majority would like to preserve India’s secular fabric. Your article would have made more interesting reading if you had also mentioned what some Hindus are doing to help some Muslims, say like seva a overwhelmingly Hindu women’s organization that helps Muslim women weavers by marketing their products and giving them a much better price.

The article also has a ghetto Muslim tone to it. My family is doing well in India and has not faced any discrimination. You have to get out and compete, most if not all employers are interested in your performance not your faith.

Regards,

Faruk

Hindustan Times Editorial Platform (Oct 23 01)

Manufacturing a divide

Aslam Qadar Khan



Vir Sanghvi’s point in his column (Waiting for a Hindu backlash, October 14) that there are not enough moderate Muslim voices is well taken.

Yes, there are not enough such voices. More and more moderate and liberal Muslims must make themselves heard.

Having said that, however, there are two points one would like to make. First, the appeal for more moderate Muslim voices must not be restricted only to times of crisis. The Indian media must make a conscious effort to seek out moderate Muslim voices at all times.

Second, the sooner we accept the fact that there is no global Muslim identity, the sooner we will stop pushing Muslims to the wall every time there is some issue engulfing some Muslim country and providing ammunition to both Muslim and Hindu extremists. If these two things are not done, we will be manufacturing, rather than ‘waiting’ for a Hindu backlash.

It is increasingly difficult for moderate Muslims to find space for their voices. As Rajdeep Sardesai (Indian Express, October 16) writes, the media love a fundamentalist. In fact, this love affair is so much that the media seem to discourage liberal Muslim voices while actively seeking out — if not encouraging — extremist Muslim opinion. This is clearly evident by the disproportionate amount of time, attention and space given to extremist Muslims in the media all over the world.

When a handful of people listen to Imam Bukhari or wave a flag with Bin Laden’s face on it, Islam is seen as the problem. “Is Islam the face of terrorism?”, thunders a Star TV news programme.

But when thousands of kar sevaks pull down the Babri masjid, it is not the Hindu religion but extremism that is clearly seen as the face of such outrage.

It is a common complaint of moderate Muslims that their voices are never provided with adequate space during ‘normal’ times. Articles are not printed, meetings are not covered. But during times of crisis, when Mullah Bukhari starts ranting, the media are there to hold forth and listen.

Moderate Muslims are then asked to explain him, rationalise him and prove our distance from him. We are more than willing to do this, but how many times and how many of us need to do so? It is highly annoying and frustrating to have to defend ourselves from the ravings of extremist elements in the Muslim community.

And every time there is a ‘Muslim’ crisis — Shah Bano or the present one — extreme voices become not only more appealing but also more exciting for news consumption. It is far more difficult for moderate Muslims already on the defensive to be heard.

The issue of a pan-Islamic identity is clearly nonsense. It is mostly a media construction. It is raked up during times of crisis and conveniently forgotten at other times. A UP Muslim has more in common with a UP Hindu than he has in common with a Muslim from another state, let alone another country.

Muslims do not share some sort of an identity which overrides their national identities. There is no pan-Christian identity either. Muslim countries fight against one other. There are secessionist movements in Muslim countries too. Or are we forgetting Bangladesh? Did Iraq not invade Kuwait?

There are countless examples which reduce the idea of a pan-Islamic identity to what it is: a convenient propaganda tool in the hands of extremists. It is used by non-Muslim extremists to lay the blame on the Muslim minority in their country. It is used by Muslim extremists like Bin Laden to muster whatever support they can for their dubious causes. The success or failure of both such attempts is no proof for the existence of any pan-Islamic identity.

We cannot dismiss the notion of a pan-Islamic identity. But far too much is read into it. It has become the bane for Indian Muslims, used to question our nationalism and loyalty. “Are you an Indian first or a Muslim first?” is an absurd question to ask. We all live with multiple identities. It is as absurd as asking whether one is a man first or a father first or a husband first. Religion and nationality are two separate things and they cannot — particularly in a secular country — be in conflict.

There is very little Muslim support for Bin Laden from Muslims who have nothing to do with him. But there may be support to him from Muslim mullahs who have much to do with him. So one must understand that while there are Muslims responding to Bin Laden, they are also Muslims denouncing him.

Also, let us only worry about Indian Muslim support to Bin Laden — which is quite meagre to begin with. Finally, let us distinguish between supporting Bin Laden and expressing our deep grievances with the American policy in various parts of the world.

Let us all — liberal Hindus, liberal Muslims and the media — actively join forces to counter-extremism. Otherwise we may all have to bear some responsibility for manufacturing support to the Hindu right.

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re: Zafar # 156

Goes to show that in many parts we continue to live in the dark ages.

We can fight darkness only with light, not with darkness.

YLH:

Yesterday some Indian told me that `Arundati Roy` was nothing but a whore... how sad is that?

That is very sad. Hope you told the guy off. A statement like that needs to be condemned without reservation. However, while rising to her defence as an individual, keep in mind that Arundhati Roy is definitely Anti American, so I wouldn`t rise to a staunch defence off her views either.

This is an interesting point ;)

Any comments by the Pakistanis????

Fact: Their are only 2 possibilities. The whole subcontinent becomes completely secular or India becomes a Hindu state. History will decide.

Dear Chacha Nehru:

I checked out the reports on the Ikwan in Kashmir, as per the URL provided by you. The HRW people themselves say that the tortured people were Jamaat Islami activists. The Jamaat Islami is openly anti India and Pro Pakistan.

So, what is your point? Do you expect Indian Army to give laddoos to Jamaatis. Infact, in the HRW report, none of the Jamaat members were killed, only threatened and intimidated. I have a problem with that actually. Why were the Jammatis not executed? That inefficiecy of Indian Army must be investigated, and punished.

Zafar:

You had asked if Bapu Shah Bhardwaj Lazwanti had ever written introspective before? Well, I will reproduce his text. It may not be fully introspective, but it is the truth. Get past the hyperbole, and you will see the bitterness. I don`t know what the hell this guy is, of he`s Indian, Bihari stuck in Bangladesh whatever. I do know that this post is relevant, if not for him, than for the disfranchised Muslims of India. I take the liberty of reproducing it in its entirety.

``The sooner we forget most of the contrived history of medievel india better it is for the country.When you say muslim RULERS ,it does not mean 99.99999999999999999 % of muslims ever were royal or have any inheritence from it or been benefeciary of it.It only puts the muslim on an unsympathetic platform like the czars ,& all the royals who were butchered & deserved to be according to the new socialistic justice for all the persecution of past.

Regardless of kings & queens in india were muslims ,the majority of Muslims of India,NOW, are more close to lower strata of caste system or mainly unchanged from there agragarian livelihood from 100 yrs prior to independence & 54 yrs after the independence.

The few lucky ,talented & reselient who did make themselves into somthing in Calcutta,Delhi Mumbai ,Kanpur ,Jamshedpur,Bokaro,Ahmedabad,etc industrial belts ALL HAVE ONE TIME OR ANOTHER HAVE FACED DEVASTATING PHYSICAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAUMA OF ORGANIZED PRE MEDITATED PLANNED COMMUNAL DEMOLITION in the last 50 yrs somtime more than once.

It is said one should be thankfull in whatever bad situation one finds in.In that respect ofcourse Indian muslims have also air ,water,food,clothing ,health to thank full for .Of course they are better than the tutse tribe in Rowanda & under the gun of Mighty America ,Taleban,BUT THEN EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE``

Zafar

Which points in particular are you refering to with reference to Sadna and Rsridhar? The Srikrishna report not being included?, the nationality of the author being challenged?

Yes both claim there are problems - but problems exist evrywhere and this is not what I am suggesting is the problem - it is the magnitude of the problem, that I have a problem with - Yes, poorly worded. Rsridhar says that Muslims can earn the gratitude of Hindus if they let them have the Babri? In other words, without evidence, admit they are in error - and the the implications for the next demand? The Hindu God is more valid than a Masjid? After all muslims are not really indian or they did actually steal the land, or that only they did, rape and pillage? Cuz you do realize the demands will not end just with this Babri business, do you not? Earn their gratitude? while they write a history in which Muslims are foreigners? Invaders? Are your Father, mother and their parents, Turks??? Do you look like a Turk?? TNT was a conspiracy against the great Hindu nation and Pakistan is an abomination??? No such thing as a great Muslim nation in India?? No such thing as Muslim culture in India?? Islam in India is expected to be responsible for the extreme or unpopular ideas or acts, is Hinduism responsible for Shiv Sena, RSS, Bajrang Dal, etc?? Do newspapers reveal this? Islam, the face of terror! but the demolition of the Babri, an abberation? an act by a handful of extremist? imagine Maulana Fazul Rahman winning an election on a platform that call for the destruction of some temple, is actually elected and appointed to the second most powerful post in government. Well, sure, it could happen.

Has any Indian Muslim had the cojones to say that Hindus could earn the gratitude of Muslims if they pulled out of Kashmir, and then did X and Y and Z?

``What is on the two sides of the fence? I would appreciate an answer from you because this issue is really at the core of how people see the world, evaluate problems and envision solutions to these problems.``

The fence is the divide between a agreement as what the problems are and what mechanism can legitimately solve those problems and a disagreement about what the problems are and an insistence that they be solved in only one particular way. When I say to you till how long will you remain close to the fence, I want to pose to you, till how long will you keep your eyes closed to the proportions, the magnitude of the problem. You see, Pakistan, plays no role in this, from my conversations with Indian Muslims, I sense a growing awareness that while they cannot be Pakistanis, they are becoming radicalized and are open to the realization that the India is a large territory which can make room for more than one Muslim polity. Trust me that I realize you are not on this kind of course, yet you remain unwilling to call a spade a spade - and it only this, this confrontation, however one chooses to define the confrontation, either electoral, or awareness raising, something that will allow the nation to take a breath and realize the danger of Hindu nationalism - after all, If Hindu nationalism is a valid commodity, why aren`t the nationalism of non-Hindus valid? Courts of Law? How long has the babri case been in court? Justice delayed is Justice denied??? This not about individual Hindus or individual Muslims, but rather about a ideological movement which is determined to stamp a Hindu identity upon India, now you are right that this the business of Indians, but please, please do not throw the rubbish about pluralistic , unique definition of secular democracy at us - it`s an insult to persons intelligence - by all means if that paradigm finds resonance or that ideal holds attraction, who are we in Pakistan to say, that is not valid, for you, just don`t tell us that is true for us as well. After all why is Ok to ban SIMI but not any Hindu organization involved in inciting communalism? How secular is a government that wages a civil war aginst persons who choose to define their movement in religious terms? - Again, don`t get me wrong, why would a movement calling itself Islamic invoke such wrath in a supposedly ``secular`` polity? while movements that promote hindu values and identity provoke no such reflex?

Sadna has accused Asif and myself of attempting to bind Indian muslims in Ideological prostitution, you may even agree with this objectionable notion. Yet to say that unrest or an alienation among Muslims in India does not play into the hands of some in Pakistan would be less than truthful, however; this point of view completely disregards any sense of religious affinity and concern, it assumes all pakistani muslims who posit an opinion have nothing but Machiavellian motives. On the other hand, you are quite correct in saying that Pakistan as a whole cannot claim the right to speak for Muslims of India, however; it deny affinities is to deny reality.

``But don’t you think it’s a little unfair to discount all the questions people raise about the article without looking at the answers?``

No I do not discount that questions are genuine concerns or that the answers come from an equally genuine understanding.

``I don’t think that the author CAN believably answer the questions that have been raised. And that this explains his total absence from the board. Which says a lot about his confidence in his ability to defend his view. Elections will show what political ideology sells in India. It’s apparent which one sells on Chowk.``

Perhaps you are right but I cannot judge or come to conclusions with regard to the authors absence thus far. Tell me, what do results of the elections say? Faith in the inate goodness, fairness of the Indian electorate? perhaps this may sound like a cheeky question coming from a Pakistani, under military rule, yet, perhaps this will not disqualify it from consideration? Do not misunderstand me, I realize that india is big and complex, country but am I wrong in thinking that the magnitude of the problem (communal) has substantially increased? Actually, I am convinced it will continue to grow as india becomes a more complex economy, it`s built in to the structure of society and reflects in the constructs that animate it`s external relations.

Now if I may I should like to explain my impatience. Recently a couple of visitors were over, they had family in India and the conversation took that turn. They felt that I was not sufficiently aware of the wrath that their family and ordinary Muslims, most who they said lived as minorities in villages suffer when ever realtions with Pakistan are more tense than usual. I informed them that a Bangladeshi friend of mine was in Bombay at the time of the riots and had told me of the kinds things Muslims suffered there. My guests suggested that we in Pakistan need to be ever mindful of the vulnerablity that we expose our coreligionists and kin in India to, if we do not follow Indian leadership. I remain very upset that muslims in India are basically hostage and I find in attitude you are taking an acceptance of that hostage status. Reasonableness is not necessarily reflected in elections, and I suggest to you that a most unreasonable intellectual trend has taken hold in India. Calling it secularism is not going to change the reality of the experience(s)(Abandon an islamic or Muslim idenity or construct a hinduized muslim identity). Of course Pakistan cannot do anything about it, but only Muslims in India can help themselves. It is clear to me that psychologically and culturally, they will find it very difficult to be Pakistanis, even if they had such a choice; one twelveth the size of India, Pakistani Muslims says don`t push us we will teach you a lesson to remember, while indian muslims, citizens of india, by all rights and privilage of heritage, Indian, are required to abandon their history and culture to ingratiate themselves and earn a place in line with other ``minorities``.

Actually, I must apologise to you, I have been inconsiderate and the way you choose to see the world and yourself in it, is your business and none of mine.

#125 Sadhana

``who are you anyway?``

Agent S, don`t you remember me? I`m ZX3, 3rd row center in the year book picture, looking very much like an ISI double agent.

Seriously, you could have simply pointed out that the charges that the author makes are genuine and that he could have bolstered his case citing an indian source rather than the NYT. Instead you had to malign him by implying that he really is a pakistani (post # 50 something).

If the reaction of a self-professed secularist is to attack the messenger then indian secularism doesn`t have very much going for it. The only consolation is that real people seem wedded to secularism more strongly than cyber characters.