India’s Communal Gamble

harimau sahib.... *thanks * :-)

yeh, people often jump to conclusions; I have been guilty of that too in the past. But hey, we can always learn from our mistakes :-)

One of the great tragedies of Islam in this day and age is that it is greatly misunderstood; and the media only uses those people who will conform to the stereotype rather than allowing the *real * scholars of Islam to air their views. Having said this, at last, after september 11th, in the USA and the UK at least, real scholars of Islam like Shaykh Hamza Yusuf have been given quality air time...it is perhaps too little, but it is a start...

but most media people would rather interview an idiot like omar bakri muhammad making stupid statements just cause it makes for better viewing figures...

Not just Islam suffers from this. Most people nowadays just don`t read. They`d rather be spoon fed information and accept it as gospel. And Islam specifically stipulates that once you reach the age of puberty you are responsible for finding out about your religion for yourself. you are no longer considered under the religion of your parents...of course, Allah says in the Qur`an that if you do not know, ASK THOSE WHO KNOW [ie. the traditional ulama].

take care

asif

Re: Tahmed321

``Paper currency... And do you remember the reason for shifting the capital? ...``

I don`t know much about the paper currency bit (perhaps it failed because people would not put their faith in the government, and trusted gold/silver coins instead -- same reason as to why people prefer the US$ or Swiss Fr over Iraqi dinar s today).

Tughlak`s reason for shifting the capital flew in the face of strategic logic. Delhi`s location is important because it is in the crossroads of the northern plains between the Gangetic and the Indus river systems, and is protected by hilly ridges on 3 sides, and the river Yamuna on the 4th. Tughlak wanted a more `central (ie. to penninsular India)` location, and his choice of Daulatabad happened not to be on any major trade routes, far away from likely invasion routes (NW), and generally a terrible location. But worry not, Akbar made a similar mistake (though not on such a huge scale) when he shifted his capital from Agra to Fatehpur Sikri nearby. Akbar`s mistake was less colossal because Agra, Sikri and Delhi are nearby, not 1000 miles away like Daulatabad.

Even in Tughlak`s time, according to Battuta`s accounts, the writ of the government extended to only a few miles outside Delhi. Battuta`s royal caravan was looted within a day`s march from Delhi, when he first set out for China. He had to return in ignominy (that is why Battuta never returned when his fleet sank off Kerala!).

Ref wholly-precious-you #: 407

[harimau # 384

….two intelligible, non-hateful posts in a row???….who are you and what have you done with the real harimau?…:) ]

I have decided to become worthy of you ;-)

shammi #402 (or anyone else on chowk): Didnt Mohammed Tughlak also introduce paper currency? I vaguely recall that he did, and that the paper currency idea did ot work either, just like the shift in capital. And do you remember the reason for shifting the capital?

Ref Asif Naqshbandi #: 404

[So you see, we do not believe in one law for ourselves and another for others.]

I am sorry you had to clarify this point. One could see that most Chowkies just jump to conclusions.

You and I may have a lot of differences on religion, Naqshbandi Sahib, but I must say that you have earned my respect by being an honest person.

People like Urstruly, YLH and quite a few others have a lot to learn from you.

harimau # 384

….two intelligible, non-hateful posts in a row???….who are you and what have you done with the real harimau?…:)

Shah #387:

``Layman#36

``Pakistan is a great country.``

Come again?



Layman,

Didnt you hear the man?

If you Dont mistake BIG with better .

Just now you were reasonable when explaining your misperception & you turn around ,& wont even acqnowledge tyour ignorence``

My misperception? On what? I was talking about how people in South and North India percieve each other.

Acknowledge my ignorance? Of what? Of how Pakistan is a great country? Would you care to enlighten me on that subject?

Some time ago I had asked (to clear my ignorance) Pak Chowkies to point out significant aspects of their culture that was uniquely Pakistani (not pan-Muslim, not pan-desi) - guess what, they came up with zilch. Now culture is not the only thing that makes a nation great (eg the US of A), so don`t lose hope. Maybe sometime, someday, Pakistan will become (a part of) a great country.

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sigalph mian,

[I wonder how much they`d scream if Europe and N America instituted canon law and decided to treat non-Christians as some kind of dhimmis whose rights were not equal to the majority Christians. LEt me tell you what will happen then: Asif mian and his `liberal` hating cohorts will make a bee line towards the courts, ACLU, parliaments, what not to `redress` their grievances. Not surprisingly all these entities are products of a `liberal democratic` set-up which scoffs at the idea that any religion is better than others. Lets see how these people react when Rome says that no mosques and no non-Catholics in that city, a la Mecca.

The integrity of these gentlemen(or lack thereof), stalwart in majority and mickey-mouse in minority, never fails to baffle me.

I will have more respect for their sharia cries when they readily agree to live under canon law in Christian countries, the Laws of Manu in India, and Confucian teachings in Japan.]

I cannot speak for anyone but myself and so let me tell you a) that I don`t ``hate`` liberals.

b) If the courts in Europe and the USA decided to introduce the laws you say I will not mind a jot.You see, I am a believer in fairness. If I want shari`at law in islamic countries then i am totally prepared to allow the countries you mention, or indeed any country, to introduce whatever laws they like. I am a citizen of the UK and by that alone I have to agree to respect British Laws, whether i agree with them or not. that too, good sir, is also a part of traditional islamic sha`riat, in case you didn`t know. If the situation ever arose where i felt i was not allowed to practise my religion freely anymore (and the UK authorities have complete rights to introduce whatever laws they like--it is their country after all! who am I to object?!) I would simply do what shar`iat says (you see, instead of being narrow, shar`iat has principles to cover all human situations): I would emigrate to another country. And if I wasn`t allowed to emigrate, whatever happened to me I would accept, insha Allah, as the will of Allah.

Having said that let me tell you that most Muslims, myself included, are law-abiding citizens of the UK and will not break the law even though we might disagree with government policy (the current war on afghanistan being an example); and i am totally prepared to accept, fully, the right of these people to choose any law they want no matter how adversely it may affect muslims.

So you see, we do not believe in one law for ourselves and another for others.

http://www.indian-express.com/ie20011031/top1.html

Re: Zafar

``...I can’t comment on Tughlaq, except to say that he was considered quite mad…and his decision to move the capital to the Deccan caused a lot of hardship. (Plus he had his mother killed – or was it his wife?)``

Zafarji:

Contemporary historians are lucky to have the account of Ibn Battuta who lived in Delhi for 14(?) years and travelled all over India during Tughlak`s reign. I have read Battuata`s book, and his account corroborates your observations, especially about the move to the Deccan. Apparently, a crippled person and a mentally-ill man were the only ones found wandering the streets of Delhi on the morning of the move after Tughlak`s order to have the capital moved was carried out. Tughlak had the men tied to the back of the caravan, and upon reaching Daulatabad, only a hand or a limb was left of these unfortunate souls. The move ultimately backfired because there was not enough water to support a city in Daulatabad.

Battuta himself was too afraid to return to Delhi to meet Tughlak`s wrath after his fleet sank off the coast of Kerala, and was happy to get away.

re Asif N posts

What bothers me so much about the likes of Mian Naqshbandi is that they want all the civil rights and liberties for Muslims in non-Muslim countries but are loath to provide the same treatment in reverse. I wonder how much they`d scream if Europe and N America instituted canon law and decided to treat non-Christians as some kind of dhimmis whose rights were not equal to the majority Christians. LEt me tell you what will happen then: Asif mian and his `liberal` hating cohorts will make a bee line towards the courts, ACLU, parliaments, what not to `redress` their grievances. Not surprisingly all these entities are products of a `liberal democratic` set-up which scoffs at the idea that any religion is better than others. Lets see how these people react when Rome says that no mosques and no non-Catholics in that city, a la Mecca.

The integrity of these gentlemen(or lack thereof), stalwart in majority and mickey-mouse in minority, never fails to baffle me.

I will have more respect for their sharia cries when they readily agree to live under canon law in Christian countries, the Laws of Manu in India, and Confucian teachings in Japan.

re shah

Funny, no reference for the article posted, no names of individuals cited, and no date given. And then the evergreen

``A retired military type, bushy moustache and all, was regaling us with his experiences of 1971. This character advises Khaleda on security issues and had the plum job of military attache in the Bangladeshi mission to a key neighbouring country during her first innings in power. Interestingly, though he fought on the West Pakistani side in that ‘liberation war’ and was a prisoner of war in India, he made no secret of it. ``

No names, no ranks, no official position. Don`t blame people if they suspect this `military type` is a result of the author`s overdose in Scotch at Dhaka Club!

``This is the new Bangladesh. People who scoffed at the idea of a Bangladesh in 1971 are now more comfortable, even boasting of their links with the pre-liberation regime. Though converted to their new-found nationalism, they do respond to ‘fraternal’ vibrations emanating out of ‘old Rawalpindi’. This is bad news for India.``

Yeah? A former minister and MP, Jehangir Adel, is facing sedition charges right now for having a Pakistani flag allegedly flying from his house on the eve of some cricket victory.

Yes, the BNP is a more broad-based party than Awami League. But only fools (and the artcile showed plenty amongst Indo-Pak policymakers)will assume to much. It is still the party founded by shaheed General Ziaur Rahman, the Hero of 1971 and the announcer of Independence. Nor will this talk of ISI-philia find much sympathy with Gen Z A Khan, Gen Mir Shaukat, Col Akbar Hossain, Major Haziz, Shahjahan Siraj, and Sadeq Khoka, all ministers now and all veteran freedom fighters.

This guy, whoever it is, needs to step out of the Dhaka Club and visit Bangladesh if wants to write honestly about it. Nothing against the Club(it is a precious little place), but it ain`t Bangladesh`s heartland!

Naqshbandi #377 ``Some amongst them, like Aurangzeb Alamgir are considered wali e kaamil [perfect sufi saints, friends of God] by us``

Only trouble is, these ``friends of God`` will not be around to come to your aid on Judgement Day (the Quran is very explicity on that) when you will face the music for your mischievous ways. In fact, they will be too busy trying to protect their own hides...

RE: Reply #: 377 Asif Naqshbandi

``Some amongst them, like Aurangzeb Alamgir are considered wali e kaamil [perfect sufi saints, friends of God] by us. I did not choose them because they (supposedly) were bad to Hindus but because they ruled according to Shar`iat. I think Muhammad Tughluq was another such ruler.WE can argue about different versions of history for ever....:-)``

If these are the kinds of leaders that are looked up to by sub-continental Muslims, then I am not surprised at the pathetic state they are in.

Reply Asif Naqshbandi # 377

Asif Mian

“I will contest your view that the leaders I chose were scourges to Hindus. They were all practising, pious, Sunni Muslims. Some amongst them, like Aurangzeb Alamgir are considered wali e kaamil [perfect sufi saints, friends of God] by us. I did not choose them because they (supposedly) were bad to Hindus but because they ruled according to Shar`iat. I think Muhammad Tughluq was another such ruler.WE can argue about different versions of history for ever....:-)”

Yeh hi hai Chowk ka maza…er..I mean, of course these are debatable. Aurangzeb’s decision to knock down that temple in Kashi and build a mosque there was debated even then, with some ulema of the day saying that this destruction was against sharia. I can’t comment on Tughlaq, except to say that he was considered quite mad…and his decision to move the capital to the Deccan caused a lot of hardship. (Plus he had his mother killed – or was it his wife?) In any case, I wouldn’t use either of them as paragons of Muslim behavior. But as you say, we can dispute these things for a long time…and to what end?

“I am not calling for the destruction of the idolators. Neither does the Qur`an call for the destruction of unbelievers [except when they are the aggressors in a war]. I fully believe that orthodox Islam is a tolerant faith.”

Subhanallah! Sometimes, Asifbhai, you really put us close minded liberals in our place. We should all learn NOT to assume things about other people’s beliefs. You’ve shown us up this time – good for you.

“I thank you for your advice. I agree totally with you that Muslims desperately need scientific education but this does NOT have to mean abandoning traditional islamic thinking or doctrines. In other words we should learn science but not scientism--the belief that science has the answer to all our questions alone. As a practising scientist I reject that view totally.”

More good sense. May not agree with you on some details, but there’s nothing I can argue with here.

Now…I’m not sure that I will be able to keep up with you here, but what is current Sunni traditionalist thinking about ijtehad? Are there any sources on this that you would recommend? I’ve learned some from Tahmed sharing some of his knowledge (I alone am responsible for all misunderstandings!), but more is always good.

Thank you also for your reading suggestions about the Prophet.

Best wishes,

Zafar

PS “And if you can read Urdu...”

Sadly my Urdu is pretty rudimentary. My mother insisted on teaching me to read and write the language, for which I am grateful, but Shafiq ur Rahman was the profoundest I ever managed and from long years of disuse I’m afraid I couldn’t even read him properly any more.