India’s Communal Gamble

correction #350: ``In my opinion, the only way they can get into political parties is through back doors, opened to them by people like NS, BB and Zia.``

should read

``In my opinion, the only way they can get into political power is through back doors, opened to them by people like NS, BB and Zia.``

Re: Eklayva

``Then, if you dig deeper and ask: if the term ``Islamic`` does not apply to the nature of governance, then does it describe some kind of a vision? What precisely are the practical dimensions of that vision? If you press beyond some vague prefacing, you will get as many different answers as the number of people you ask. I am sure you will find that on many dimensions of that ``vision`` India ranks higher than many so-called ``Islamic`` nations.``

There`s no need to complicate this further. You get my point, don`t you? Yes, many Indians are Muslim but India is not and never will be like the countries which are majority Muslim....those countries, with the exception of Turkey and to some extent Bangladesh, are the intellectual sewers of the modern world.

re shah 348

``Urdu is the pakistans national language how many of your thses gentle men know Urdu & schooled in Islamiyat.??``

A. WHy would Indians have to know Pakistan`s national language?

B. How many Pakistanis know ``Pakistan`s national language``? (my guess is slightly less than half can actually speak proper Urdu and less than a querter use is as their home verncular)

C. Why would those gentlemen want to be schooled in Islamyiat to prove their Muslim-ness?

RE: Reply #: 348 Shah

``Pakistan has successfull actyors more than 2 & industrialits too. May be not as rich as Prem ji that may b/c he has 7 times moe ppl. & 10 times larger economy .Incidently thses sucessful indian muslims are also ADDing to the sucess of India .So it is not one way Gift to muslim india as you indirectly argue.``

I mentioned those examples to refute Naqshbandi`s contention that Indian Muslims are in ``chains of slavery`` (a futile exercise, in retrospect). I never said that people like Premji were doing a favor to India. In fact they are the pillars of modern India. For every Premji who is in the limelight due to his phenomenal achievement there are countless ordinary Indian Muslims who, by sheer dint of their hard work, contribute to the Indian nation. More power to them. Rabble-rousers like Naqshbandi`s bring dishonor to these folk by their words.

Romair, Banjara, Shah

Some interesting comments. I will get back to you guys soon. Right now, I am expecting a bunch of hooligans to drop by :)

Sigalph343

Right on pal. The rest of the `ummah` can learn a lot from Turkey.

You cant have your cake & eat it too.

If you like what Turkey is or Pakistan,Egypt,Syria,you must not base your constitution on British or American model.Both thses constitution ,guarantees ,freedom of religion,pursuit of hapiness ,liberty & life .Non intereference or minimal interference by the govt.in day to day life of its subjects.Such democracies ,requires HIGH degree of tolerence.Rascism,discrimination is CRIME here .

There is nothing wrong in liking dictator specially benevolent dictators.You dont guarantee ,endless ,total & bizzare freedom seen in the west .But make up your mind .like i said in the beginning dont delude yourself into liking Western constituion & still wanting to censure certain ppl. you Dont like or dont agree with.

Re: banjaara

``Precisely what the muslims would also want and that way the Govt. in power would not be laying the ``ShilaNiyas`` or the Prime Minister declare to the nation about the ``Will of the nation`` or every Official Govt.Function start with Aarti,because that is what you expect in a democratic and secular country.``

What`s wrong with saying the ``will of the nation?`` How is that related to religion? As for your other points, I agree. Ban that $hit across the board. No aartis, iftar parties, or christmas lights at Vajpayee`s official residence. If he wants to do all this, he should get off of government premises and do it.

I get pi$$ed off when George Bush says ``God Bless America``...he should chant that nonsense in his bedroom and spare the nation. Even America is not perfect...if he said ``Jesus Bless America,`` there would be a lot of offended people...but no one cares about the sizable atheist population who gets offended when he says ``God Bless America``...

If one looks at things from a purely democratic point of view, then everyone and anyone has a right to come out on the streets. It doesn`t matter what they are coming out for. They could be religious lovers, or satin worshippers, klu klux klan members, or the BJP. What one does not have a right to do is to come out on the street and destroy property and carry out violence.

The worst action against any religious (or non-religious) group is to not allow them on the street. It is even worse to completely attempt to suppress them, as is being done in Egypt, Algeria, Turkey, and was done in Iran.

The results of such suppressions are obvious and open for everyone to see, i.e. massive counter reactions. Egypt has the most vicious and powerful militant religious groups in the world. Their is a storm brewing there (and in Saudi Arabia), against its pro-American govt. Primarily because whenever even the non-militant religous groups win elections in any of Egypt`s syndicates (legal, etc.), they are banned. It is not a coincidence the top two members of Al-Qaeda are Saudi and Egyptian, as were a majority of the hijackers.

In Algeria, the religious parties, out and out, won the National Election, but were not allowed to form the govt. Look what is happening there now. And in Iran, it was the Shah`s extremist anti-religion policies that lead to the counter Islamic wave. Even in India, the rise of the BJP may (or may not, I am not sure) have been a backlash to what many Hindus (rightly or wrongly) saw as suppression of their religion in anti-Hindu and pro-Muslim secularism. At least, this is the logic the BJP provides on its own website.

In Turkey, the govt. has gone out of its way, to ban everything that has anything to do with Islam. This in a country that has one of the highest percentage density Muslim of any country in the world. However, religious parties continue to pop-up there. If Turkey`s economy goes down to South Asian levels (it has had some major currency and financial shocks in its history), the religious parties will come out into the forefront. Turkey has an extremely poor human rights record in its handling of Kurds. It is in a state of war with more groups than is Pakistan. So it is not the model state people make it out to be. Countries do not become progressive by making it illegal to wear hijab in their equivalent of National Assembly. That is not different than forcing a female to wear a burqa. I start getting sick when Pakistanis point to Turkey (or Saudi Arabia) as their ultimate goal. It is a sign of an inferiority complex. Both are at the opposite extreme end of the spectrum.

The worst thing Pakistan can do is to kick out or ban religious parties from the political arena. If Pakistanis are so sure that their country-folk are, ``moderate`` Muslims, then they should have no fear of religious parties. I certainly don`t fear them. In my opinion, the only way they can get into political parties is through back doors, opened to them by people like NS, BB and Zia.

Let the religious parties come out on the streets. Let them present their points of views. Let them yell and scream and burn effigies of Musharraf (along with their other Army-hating colleagues). Only take action against them, if any of they commits violence etc., then take strict action.

On the whole, Musharraf seems to be doing the above, and is handling this situation extremely well. I have admired his ability to think, ``outside the military uniform.`` But his dealings with the religious parties, go beyond the political anlaytical abilities of even the most capable General. My feeling is he is being advised by various (non BB and non NS loving) politicians in the PPP and PML, etc. on how to handle the maulvis.

They only way to remove religious extremism from a society is to raise the living standard of the citizens. If Pakistan wants the followers of JUI et. al. to be reduced, it needs to provide jobs to the people who are participating in the protests. People who have jobs tend not to take part in processions, on a daily basis, on working days. If Pakistan attempts to take out any political religious party militarily or forcefully, it will turn into Egypt or Algeria. And if it attempts to force secularism down every Pakistanis throat, it will turn into an Iran without oil.

If Pakistan`s, ``silent majority`` members really wants to take on the religious parties, they need to come out on the Pakistani streets, in greater numbers than the religious supporters, in rallies against the JUI, JI etc. But sadly, the silent majority in Pakistan spends too much time instructing others to take-on the religious parties, and too little time taking any action itself.

Pradeep Kumar your Moms first crush on silver screen or your grand mothers whether you are in or out of college.

For some reason he got all the Raja ,roles like Shahjehan in Taj Mahal,Mere Huzoor,.Never liked the look .Oblong Face with crooked moustacheue .I dont know what ppl. those days considered handsome

Pradeep Kumar dead

PTI

Kolkata, October 27

Veteran film actor Pradeep Kumar, who appeared in lead roles in Hindi and Bengali films, died here on Saturday of a massive heart attack, according to Ramakrishna Mission Seva Pratisthan hospital sources.

He was 76.

Kumar is survived by his wife, son and daughter.

He was admitted to hospital on October 22 with cerebral vascular problem. Subsequently, he suffered multiple organ failure, the sources added.

RSaxena # 344

``As long as it is restricted to the believers` homes and minds and does not pollute government affairs or the public domain.``

Precisely what the muslims would also want and that way the Govt. in power would not be laying the ``ShilaNiyas`` or the Prime Minister declare to the nation about the ``Will of the nation`` or every Official Govt.Function start with Aarti,because that is what you expect in a democratic and secular country.

Regards.

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Saxena,

There is a general confusion here. By ``general`` I mean, it is not confined to you and me.

People use the label ``Islamic`` loosely. For example, an ``Islamic`` country could be Saudi Arabia, it could be Pakistan, or it could be Turkey. Thus, the label has little to do with the nature or structure of national governance.

Then, if you dig deeper and ask: if the term ``Islamic`` does not apply to the nature of governance, then does it describe some kind of a vision? What precisely are the practical dimensions of that vision? If you press beyond some vague prefacing, you will get as many different answers as the number of people you ask. I am sure you will find that on many dimensions of that ``vision`` India ranks higher than many so-called ``Islamic`` nations.

Therefore, I think that the current use the term ``Islamic`` state is highly problematic. India has more Muslims than all other countries but a few. Since there is no clear understanding of what constitutes an Islamic state, I dont see any reason why India, with its very large Muslim population, is any less Islamic than most ``Islamic`` states.

A functioning democracy can be Hindu, Musli, Christian all at the same time. And most (not all) Muslims will agree that democracy is quite compatible with Islam.

Re: Eklayva

``Let`s say India will never be a ``religious`` or ``theocratic`` country. I think that is what you meant.``

No. I meant exactly what I said.

``Sometimes in the give-and-take of Chowk, we Indians fail to emphasize what, IMO, all of us very strongly believe: Islam is a broader and completely different concept than captured in the state of Pakistan.``

I don`t care what Islam, or any other religion for that matter, is or is not. As long as it is restricted to the believers` homes and minds and does not pollute government affairs or the public domain.

``With the number of Muslims we have living in a working democracy, India is already more ``Muslim`` a nation that many others.``

What? You`re making no sense now, Eklayva...I am not talking about the number of Muslims in India...I`m talking about the stuff that afflicts the Muslim world outside of India and perhaps Turkey...dictatorships, religious police, lack of personal liberties, blasphemy laws, lack of religious freedom, membership in religious organizations like the OIC, etc. Yes many of countrymen are Muslim, but our country is far from the $hit I listed above...and it will stay that way.

re eklavya 341

``People of all religions should be encouraged to move their religions to their places of worship, their homes, and their hearts. Ofcourse, all those lovely processions and colorful festivals are a boon to the public. But otherwise, religion, whether Hindu or Muslim, has no business being on the streets. ``

Right on pal. The rest of the `ummah` can learn a lot from Turkey.

RSaxena,

Let`s say India will never be a ``religious`` or ``theocratic`` country. I think that is what you meant.

Sometimes in the give-and-take of Chowk, we Indians fail to emphasize what, IMO, all of us very strongly believe: Islam is a broader and completely different concept than captured in the state of Pakistan. With the number of Muslims we have living in a working democracy, India is already more ``Muslim`` a nation that many others.