India’s Communal Gamble

re: Sarwari # 115

Sarwari, a good one.

No one should undermine the importance of religion. It is very important. In fact, it is so important that it is a crime to mix it up in the affair of men, in political issues of the state, or in matters of love toward one`s neighbors or toward one`s nation. Cowasjee is certainly a great Pakistani, and that makes him a fabulous human being, worthy of universal respect.

Anybody who decides to think a bit deeply and honestly can see that all these various kinds of affective ties and identities are not mutually exclusive. In fact, a harmonized acceptance and celebration of these identities is the prerequisites to the establishment of trust between any two people, to the attainment of peace at the level of any human grouping, and to the stability and progress of any nation.

So here`s three cheers for all those Pakistanis who have my admiration, affection, and love, even though we may disagree on some issues.

To live is to differ. As the cliche goes, from thesis and anti-thesis comes synthesis. No wonder, those driven to remove differences end up removing life.

One more thing, it is a pity that the Indian author is so blind; but his description of Hinduism like that of a man who has never seen a banyan tree before and knowing only the oak and the pine, finds the banyan tree incoherent.

-Arun Gupta

AL-Talib # 93

[``That’s why it is vital that the (Babri Masjid) conflict be settled in court, in accordance with the law. And that the court’s judgement (whatever it turns out to be) is enforced.``]

I am surprised that the Indian pseudo seclarists can say this with a straight face. Miyaji, your hindu fundamentalist Prime Minister has declared that the construction of ram mandir at the site of the destroyed masjid is the ``national will``. VHP has declared several times that it will build the mandir REGARDLESS of the supreme court verdict.

kuch sharam karo... you are a bigger uncle tom than uncle tom himself. Accept it... India is a country for and of the Hindu bigots.

BTW, Can you tell us for how much are the trishul bearing Taj Mahals selling in Dheli?

sadna:

Why do you get into your name-calling routine (Pukis, ignoramuses etc.) whenever an Indian muslim exposes the hideous face of Hindu India? I can say things in return that will set the greying pubic hair afire, but I `ll wait.... Gather you thoughts and type a coherent response to the author. Let us read the Hindu point of view. Ignore the Pukis for now. Your previous responses create the impression of a bleating bakri in labor pains, head butting everything that comes close.

KENYA DEFAMING ISLAM!!!!!!

Kenyans have painted their sex education vans green!!!! Can anything be more offensive to Islam?!!!

See the picture, Be shocked. Be enraged. Another conspiracy by the West/ Jews/ Buddhists/ Hindus/ animists/ Red Indians/ Eskimos to defame the Holy Prophet.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_1613000/1613648.stm

Jihadis, rise, kill, murder, be shaheed (the more the better)!

Down with Kenya.

Down with sex education.

Down with anyone who manufactures, uses, thinks of green color.

Up with Mr. Makhfi.

See how I am burning with anger at these kafirs for using green color.

Next Jihadi assault will be on trees for using green for their leaves without asking Mr. Makhfi for permission. Those leaves fall and people walk on them!!! (my heart breaks). Dirty Kufr have bribed trees.

By the same author on another Pakistani (a country whose history is considered a joke by its own historians) Website

The Perils and Pitfalls of Indian History



By Shahid Akhter Makhfi

History,” Voltaire once wrote, “is a pack of tricks we play upon the dead.” Marx reaffirmed that the tradition of the dead generation weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living. And, just when they are in the revolutionary transformation of themselves. . . they timidly conjure up the spirits of the past to help them, they borrow their names, slogans and costumes so as to stage the new world historical scene in this venerable disguise and borrowed language.”

The Indian recipe for history is to begin with a myth, add a spoonful or two of bits and pieces of historical facts (picking up the desired ones only), steep them in folklore and allow it to simmer until it reaches boiling point.

This is the potent drink with a fairly good market, which believes in anything, and everything. Once said, it is believed and the belief is such that people may not cremate the dead for two months in the belief that the dead man is still alive but meditating, while the body in fact is decomposing.

Under the shade of such a market, there is no dearth of merchandise, as long as the marketing strategy is intact. One shouldn’t be surprised if an attempt is made to unnerve Sri Lanka one day on the simple belief that the Sri Lanka of today was precisely the place reached by legendary Ram in order to defeat Ravana. The Indian marketing strategy should deem it proper to demand that Sri Lanka be taken away from the Buddhists and given to the harbingers of Rama.

Taj Mahal has always fascinated millions, including me. Few years back, I was there admiring its beauty when I witnessed a group of holy men (holy because their skulls were shaven, they wore loin cloth and thus I presume they had renounced the world) chanting slogans in Sanskrit and attempting to place a flame on the grave of Shah Jehan, the builder of the Taj.

The Sadhus were a part of the unruly mob, which had burst into the monument wishing to capture and convert it into a temple. Armed soldiers with rapid fire guns testified to the tension. The monument of peace and love that has stood for centuries and attracted millions of visitors from all corners of the world is now under attack by the bunch who have read history emanating from the Indian shelf that it was a Hindu monument and therefore, it should be converted.

It is a moot point, as the why the Bharatiya Janta Party should have to write a new history to call Hindutva’s forces to arms. Surely its complaints about minority appeasement and live issue-anti-national tendencies, aggressions at all time, temple destroyers - should be enough to rally its votaries. The past is a powerful persuader of the righteousness of present action.

Political movements have long understood the utility of harnessing knowledge to their causes. One of the easiest ways is to appropriate the past -- rewrite history.

Stalin was successful in erasing Leon Trotsky from the annals of Russian Revolution. The Britishers insidiously divided the Indian Hindus and Muslims by introducing text books that advocated the idea that Hindus and Muslims had never lived amicably together.

The teaching of history can often become a very political affair, especially when an attempt is made to impose it by those in power. The withdrawal of textbooks prescribed by the former Bharatiya Janata Party state government is just an example in the continuing debate over how children ought to learn about India’s past.

Gross factual distortion is a matter of great concern. Apolitical howlers are as amusing as they are misleading. One such text claims that Samudragupta built the Qutab Minar ! If communal tensions are to become a part of India’s past, unprejudiced schooling is something very essential. Since in most Indian schools history is learnt by rote and such biased stories get firmly imprinted in the child’s mind.

At the close of Muslim rule, India was rich and tempting enough to invite Europeans and by the time the English chapter closed, India was sucked dry. A layman’s comparison of Turkish and English rule will dispell the erroneous belief circulated in Indian history. Even Mahatma Gandhi used to say that the British had exploited and hurt India more than the Muslim rulers. But why the change in perception today ? The Britishers are revered as the builders of Modern India, while the chief architects to lay the groundwork were the Turks.

Though the Turks were foreigners, after a generation or two they were quite Indianised. Not so with the British. The Turkish period witnessed more wars, but the wealth remained in India. Not so with the British. In fact it was the Indian wealth that paved way for the Industrial Revolution in England.

Unfortunately, the scenario is quite different in the history texts. The Ayodhya issue to today was historically solved and settled more than a decade ago. Extensive excavations were carried out at Ayodhya, specifically to examine the Rama legend, but Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) site observation notebook drew a blank. No antiquities pointing to such a temple were listed. The ASI, the government, the press, educational institutions, maintained a stony silence and for more than ten years nothing appeared in the ASI reports. A diabolical silence indeed !

The scholars have brought to light Buddhist monasteries at Ayodhya that far outnumbered the Brahmanical structures at Ayodhya in the seventh century.

However, what did strike a layman was the presence of pillars in the Babri Mosque with non-Islamic motiffs. This was not a unique feature. In the first place none of the motiffs championed the cause of Rama or Vishnu iconography. Second, a salient feature of medieval buildings was to make use of elements from other structures, collected from far and near. Did Shah Jehan not plunder the remains of Tuhglaqabad Fort in order to collect materials for Shahjehanabad ? Abdur Rahim Khane Khana’s tomb is denuded today. The entire stones were used in the make up of Safdarjung’s tomb. The most spectacular example is the Bhaskereshwara Temple in Orissa with a peculiar curvilinear tower. A pity that a pillar carrying the peaceful message of Ashoka was chiselled to make way for a huge linga and in order to incorporate this, the temple architecture had to be altered. By the logic of returns the Buddists can claim it outright. History is replete with such instances, but why to boil down on a particular cast, that too steeped in legends and myths.

The VHP through manipulation of historical research, in pursuance of its claim, has done a commendable job. Now members of the Bajrang Dal claim that they know the precise birth spot of Krishna that lies beneath the Idgah at Varanasi !

On the question of Ram temple, it seems that Ram has been monopolised by the Hindi speaking belt of North India. As regards its history the BJP leaders till recently were not even sure about the spot where Ram was born. Atal Behari Vajpayee had admitted this as early as May 17, 1989. More significantly, Advani himself was reported to have said in Bombay, ``No one can prove that it (Babri Masjid) was the birth place of Shri Ram, but he could not wait for the court verdict as he felt it was a matter of belief. Likewise the Vishwa Hindu Parishad was shy of committing itself to court verdict.

And what are the credentials of the VHP, whose leaders had signed an agreement with Home Minister, Buta Singh, specifically promising to abide by the court verdict.

A study of the Hindu history reveals that the temple worship was an alien of practice. None of the scriptures refer to them or lay on Hindus the duty of going to temple for worship of an image.

Mahabharata makes no mention of temple nor the word “Ayodhya” comes anywhere .It was more of a borrowed phenomenon from the practice of kins that people started going to temples to look at the image of diving potentate and to watch the ceremonials of his daily life, which were modelled on those of a king.

It is must unfortunate that at the heart of the problem of India today, lies a history with various twists and turns. It is reasonable to ask if the Indian historian is going to allow his discipline to be wielded like a weapon in racial, communal, class or caste wars ? It is time for them to realise and take on the role of mentors of a misguided and misinformed nation.

Source:



by courtesy & © 2000 Shahid Akhter Makhfi

sadna #126

There is something strange.

Another so called archeologist also writing on social issues!! Earlier one still has place of prominence on front page of this site (even though his article is more than 16 months old).

I also noticed a set of articles written by annother archeologist with a different name but on almost same lines. Will find the URL again and post it here. It is certainly more than a coincidence!!

Or may be, as this author finds meaning in green tiles of Delhi toilets, I am also being paranoid.

Regards

`He and I have disagreed on many things but never been disagreeable with each other. Mainly because he doesn`t lie like you do.`

Rsaxena, my dear, why are you in denial. You are the only liar on these boards, and everyone here knows this very well. On the contrary other than your small coterie bigoted friends (ilk of Gowardhan, MaheshG, Devkant, AKash etc) no one will ever dare to call me a liar atleast if they are not liars themselves...

Wanna take a vote?

I say Indians only... how about Stuka, Shammi, Zafar al Talib, Dost Mittar, Eklavya ....

Fellas do you consider me a liar?

Lying Bigots Oh Lying Bigots:

(addressed to lying bigots inc. : Gowardhan, Rsaxena, Mahesh G, Jay Thackerey)

Have you ever been to Pakistan?

-YLH

Reply Shammi, Asif # 111

[``...rich and educated Muslims must then live together in little communities, trading with other Muslims and doing business with each other... In short you will have islands of Islam in an ocean of kufr``

“Absolutely brilliant! Why did I not think of it before? We should also evolve rules on how `rich and educated Muslims who live together in little communities` should become entirely self-sufficient…These little communities would not be complete without neurologists/cardiologists/architects/ accountants, who while practising various and sundry professions, would be tied together by a common religion. And of course, we will have to ensure that the colleges and universities that impart such professional education, are also entirely segregated -- Muslim teachers for Muslim students, Hindu teachers for Hindus, Sikh teachers for Sikhs...We shall struggle hard to fight mixing of religions, but we will not allow our `little communities` to become polluted.”]

Now why does this sound so familiar, Shammiji? Did the Broederbond collectively convert to Islam? Or perhaps the Gush Emunim have seen the error of their ways and are now finally fighting their ideological battle on the side of righteousness? Asifbhai, perhaps you could explain.

Zafar

Reply Hobbyty # 104

Hobbyty

“You must know by now that I wish you no injury, yet persistently, you offer injury to all those who point the absurd proportions of the sense of injury that very significant numbers of Indian Muslims feel.”

I do recognise it, Hobbyty, but I don’t think the author of this article’s views are balanced or representative. I find some of his statements ignorant (wilfully or otherwise). Rsridhar and Sadna have made some really good points – yet NEITHER OF THEM has in any way said that Muslims in India do not suffer discrimination, and neither of them has in any way said that India does not have some way to go to rectify this. Of course the author is free to have his opinions – but I’m free to think that his opinions shape his selection of facts, rather than facts shaping his opinion. If you think that I am unfair here, please tell me why – with reference to the points I’ve raised and which Sadna and Rsridhar have raised.

“I think I understand your politics, and many times appreciate the subtlty and nuance with which you have kept some at bay - till when will you remain so close to the fence?”

What is on the two sides of the fence? I would appreciate an answer from you because this issue is really at the core of how people see the world, evaluate problems and envision solutions to these problems.

“I generally felt sad at reading this article. you must know that it is confirmation for me, but I still hold your advice from earlier conversations and renew my respect for the patience some exercise, yet is difficult for me: how much longer this walking on egg shells? when will it be OK to call a spade a spade? when will enough be enough? when will someone stand up to say ``no more``?”

Hobbyty, it’s perfectly valid for you to say that your opinion is such and such, and that you find the author of this article more believable than other people. But don’t you think it’s a little unfair to discount all the questions people raise about the article without looking at the answers?

I don’t think that the author CAN believably answer the questions that have been raised. And that this explains his total absence from the board. Which says a lot about his confidence in his ability to defend his view.

Elections will show what political ideology sells in India. It’s apparent which one sells on Chowk.

Salaaams,

Zafar

Reply Hobbyty # 104

Hobbyty

“You must know by now that I wish you no injury, yet persistently, you offer injury to all those who point the absurd proportions of the sense of injury that very significant numbers of Indian Muslims feel.”

I do recognise it, Hobbyty, but I don’t think the author of this article’s views are balanced or representative. I find some of his statements ignorant (wilfully or otherwise). Rsridhar and Sadna have made some really good points – yet NEITHER OF THEM has in any way said that Muslims in India do not suffer discrimination, and neither of them has in any way said that India does not have some way to go to rectify this. Of course the author is free to have his opinions – but I’m free to think that his opinions shape his selection of facts, rather than facts shaping his opinion. If you think that I am unfair here, please tell me why – with reference to the points I’ve raised and which Sadna and Rsridhar have raised.

“I think I understand your politics, and many times appreciate the subtlty and nuance with which you have kept some at bay - till when will you remain so close to the fence?”

What is on the two sides of the fence? I would appreciate an answer from you because this issue is really at the core of how people see the world, evaluate problems and envision solutions to these problems.

“I generally felt sad at reading this article. you must know that it is confirmation for me, but I still hold your advice from earlier conversations and renew my respect for the patience some exercise, yet is difficult for me: how much longer this walking on egg shells? when will it be OK to call a spade a spade? when will enough be enough? when will someone stand up to say ``no more``?”

Hobbyty, it’s perfectly valid for you to say that your opinion is such and such, and that you find the author of this article more believable than other people. But don’t you think it’s a little unfair to discount all the questions people raise about the article without looking at the answers?

I don’t think that the author CAN believably answer the questions that have been raised. And that this explains his total absence from the board. Which says a lot about his confidence in his ability to defend his view. Elections will show what political ideology sells in India. It’s apparent which one sells on Chowk.

Salaaams,

Zafar

I agree with author on some things that he wrote. To some extent this is true. But overall I think the author is someone who is a religious person and is cannot think beyond religion. Its unwise to blame it all on Hinduism. I am totally against all kinds of religions as I feel there is no place for religion in today`s world and it can only add to problems of that are faced by world today. Be it Hinduism or Islam or any other religion. Society will change ...maybe after few hundred years.

Why not is there a place for religion? Good question.

Because relgion was a necessity when people were uncivilized and needed something to police them.

People needed to know whats wrong and whats right. They needed answers to the questions that nature posed to them. And as they did not know answers they put it on something called `God`. Without going further into this I would stick to the point that I want to make.

Its not that Islam is great and Hinduism is bad or Budhism is perfect. Its the people who make it.

Religion itself gets defined over peoriod of time depending upon its interpretation by different people at different times.

Its stupid to compare things that are attributes of people (like ignorance, superstition, false sense of superiority etc) to religion.

Indian society as it is today needs lots of reforms and one of them is necessarily making people move away from religion and move more towards morals. I wish if people spend as much time telling their children whats wrong and whats right as they spend on telling them what lord Rama (Some small time prince made God by people who wrote about him at the time when people traded using grain or goods) did or what Mohammad (some 6th - 7th century wise man who was definitly wise and intelligent by the standard of that time but we should realize that things written by someone in 7th century cannot be applied today) said.

People need to be taught to improve and contribute to the civilization instead of looking in past for every answer. If our ancestors had done so we still would have been hunting animals and eating grass.

Reply Stuka # 102

“More than caste, religion etc, the bedrock of India is the class system.”

Wise words.

“The lumpens of Hindutva will never be allowed real power.”

To some extent I believe that sections of the elite have tried to Hindutva as their route to power – and now find that they are riding the tiger. Hindutva as an exclusionary ideology will not be stopped by the elites, but by the support of other ideologies by the janatha.

Zafar

Reply Shah # 89

“You think muslims dont have INTROSPECTION.You have to study islam more than what they did not allowed you to study in India purposely.”

Lajwanti etc.

Please show me ONE POST from you which is introspective and self searching when discussing something religious or spritual. Show me JUST ONE.

I stand my statement that when Muslim’s first reaction to events like 9-11 is introspection and self-searching (as opposed to frantically trying to pin the blame on Mossad, RAW, Julia Roberts, etc.) then the Islamic Renaissance will have begun.

Zafar

Reply Sigalph # 87

“Now I am lost. What Muslims had to `leave` because of Bengali Muslims?”

Biharis? Perhaps this gentleman is from that group of people?

Reply Sadna # 86

“The second part of the complete reality towards which we Hindus are working is that PAKISTANIS will be terrorized, humiliated, brutalized and marginalized also. And on that part of the program, both RSS-types and liberal Hindus have exactly the same views and no one-man commission or paper reports will come to your rescue. I have tried to warn you about it repeatedly, but you are like a stuck record on Indian Muslims.”

Sadna, humour is wasted on idiots. If they had the aql to comprehend that, they wouldn’t be thinking the way they do, now would they?

Reply Sadna # 85

“I pity those Indians who consider these people from Pukistan to be their spokesmen.”

Not even that buffoon Bukhari does that.

Imagine this ad’ in the work wanted section of your local newspaper: spokespeople urgently seeking janatha to represent. Must be unable to speak on their own behalf and willing to be stalking horses for unpadh ideologies. Conditions apply. The braindead are encouraged to apply.