India’s Communal Gamble

Note to the Author:

``...There isn’t a single (Muslim, I presume) industrial house which figures among the country’s top 100...``

Factually incorrect -- Wipro (Azim Premji, Chairman) is the top Indian IT exporter and the most valuable Indian firm on BSE and NADAQ. Mr. Premji holds shares in nearly 70%(?) of company.

Details aside, the author should be commended for highlighting the potentially disastrous consequences of thoughtlessly stoking the communal/religious cauldron. It is time to move on beyond `reconstructing` ancient religious sites. If a wrong was done in the past, the way to correct it is NOT by repeating it in the present. It is time to let bygones be bygones.

Also, the author mentions Mehrauli (near Delhi) in the context of Qutab Minar and the site of the 2nd muslim ruler of India. Mehrauli is also the site of Prithvi Raj Chauhan`s (last Hindu ruler of Delhi) tomb and palace complex (now ruined). The choice of the earliest Muslim rulers to have chosen that location to build their palace may not be purely coincidental.

why do Indians get so angry and hostile when faced with self criticism?

i don`t think the writer hates India, he`s just expressing his take on some matters.

if Indians are so intellectually `liberated` as they claim to be, they should take this criticism (albeit a little one sided) well.

Agreed, there are lot of things missing in social, secular and democratic fabric of India. But where are the suggestions to improve the situation?

Re: ylh

I see you`re aching for another lickin`...but heck, even I feel bad and will let it slide.

I suggest you read sigalph`s post carefully. Or is he not credible?

{{sigalph235

I guess my advice to the author is same I gave to some others. DOn`t like India, then go somewhere else. Afghanistan`s rulers are looking for a few good Muslims.

Muslims were great and tolerant, Hindus are bad and bigoted-that seems to be the general thrust of this article. Frankly, as somebody from Bangladesh, right now (post Sept 11)I am glad it is a ``Hindu`` India next door than a Mughal or other ``Muslim`` India.

At least in India there is court/magistrate and litigation. SOmewhere in ummah-land, they wouldn`t even have bothered with that nicety. Wanna know how disputes about archaeological-religious sites are settled in much of the Islamic world- take a look at Iran (Bahai and Zorastrian sites) or Libya (Roman sites) and of course Afghanistan. The only `litigation` there is the barrell of a tank cannon.

India can be a very communal and bigoted place for non-Hindus. Her record in Bombay, Punjab, and Kashmir reeks of that bigotry. But she is a far, far better than most of the denizens of Islamic `civilization`. And Amen for that!}}

Dear Shahid. . . your forte, it seems, is a very one-sided view on things historical and current.

Let us take one small example, of green tiles in toilets. On the other hand, the Indian Army wears green and all their vehicles are green. DTC buses are green. ``chowk`` on the other hand has saffron colour on its front page. What does any of that prove? When I drink a lot the evening before, next morning my pee is saffron in colour, oh horrible Hindoo?

On the demolition or weathering away of old buildings of all sorts from religions of all sorts to make way for new buildings of all sorts, well, so what? Should we sue Saudia for the crime of the Arabian Sea submerging the holy city of Dwarka? No, we get along with life and Tatas make one of their biggest industrial units there thus giving prosperity to the region. So is that good or bad? Ask the people who live there? No, you only want to study history, right?

Changing names of cities, towns, so what? How many names do historical cities have, name a few which have remained the same over, say, a few hundred or thousand years and I will name ten that haven`t and changed as often as the rivers changed their courses. On the other hand, why don`t you also mention that our BJP Prime Minister lives in an area bounded by Shah Jahan Road, Tughlak Road, Akbar Road, Prithvi Raj Road, Teen Murti Circle and Race Course Road? No, that is inconvienient to your history, isn`t it?

The Bahai Temple came up on land appropriated from the Kalkaji Temple and a no-name mosque operated by a Muslim person I knew dealing in heavy lift equipment, in the region of Okhla level crossing, so what? Do you understand that the commercial benefits to the mosque and temple managements were in multiples of what happened before the Bahai temple came? But of course, your history, kind sir, will gloss over what happened to the Bahais. Does your medeival history even start to mention what happened to the Bahais? Who that?

Would you, also, kind historian, like to talk about the way Indian society treats Jews, Ahmediyas, Bohras, Parsis, and other religions, including many which are part of Islam? No Sir, that is not convienient for your medieval history studies, right?

``Graves ripped apart``. Apart from the British Government maintained war grave commission, which other graveyard in India is not ``ripped apart`` due to the march of humanity? Care to visit the Nizamuddin Area and see who is ripping up graves to set up small businesses of tyre re-sale, junk market and meat shops? Nahee-nahee, hamara medeival history is tarah kaa nahee hai!!

Muslims in India a terrorised lot, frustrated and burning in anger? I don`t think so. I know plenty of Muslims in India who don`t think so too. Yes, failed historians may be a frustrated lot and especially those who think 2001- 1947 is equal to 47 years!!

Rabid nonsense from somebody who has, it seems, decided that the best place to look for medeival history is to use his own nose to look up his own posterior.

For the rest at chowk:- Pardon my french, but I got to now go for breakfast at Good Luck in Pune and ask the owner if he is terrorised and frustrated as he serves me my standard keema and anda-paratha, sure we are not a perfect country but what b/s the author writes and what examples he pulls.

Forgive me for driving a purple car with an orange slash on the bonnet, but I do have a gree coloured light on the dashboard at night which the manufacturers, horrible Hindus called Suzuki, have given me a rheostat switch to dim it by . . . and all aeroplanes and ships have green lights only on side when there should have been both . . . and the green traffic light on the Indian streets is below the amber (saffron) one and if that isn`t an example of subjugating a complete religion then maybe they should ban the sale of green bedsheets in India, imagine infidels sometimes have sex on them green bedsheets!!!!

Ylh,

:)

You, my dear friend, don`t know that I have to work very hard to keep the reckless, hot-headed side of me in check. Most of my life I have been less Gandhi and more Jihadi!

But you are quite right about all those names. They are among the very best in the field of South-Asian journalism. I was frothing and foaming more about the articles written by some Pakistanis who never see any good in Indian secularism or in Indian democracy.

Farzana,

Where are you? You don`t want me to spill the beans now, do you? :)

Dear Mr. Makhfi,

My apologies for the rather harsh welcome (actually, it was harsher the first time I typed it out :)). You make some good points, and I am sure we will all have opportunity to discuss them.

Regards.

EK

Re: shrinker

``Since I left India in 81,``

Good riddance.

Ref nehru #8:

[SADDAM AND INDIA:

Do I have to remind you that Mr.Gujral paid a visit to Iraq just before the gulf war and thats what a US senator mentioned in his report the other day in the US senate when he said that India supported iraq during the gulf war. (source New york Times)]

You pathetic pea-brained idiot. India provided landing rights to USAF aircraft and provided fuel to them during the 1991 Desert Storm campaign.

Now, why don`t you repeat the canard that Mossad bombed the WTC Towers and warned the 4000 Jews who worked there so that they could stay away from work?

It is a fact that religious (and to a smaller extent ethnic) minorities in uneducated third-world countries will not be treated well. The pie is small, and everyone is going to use whatever leverage they have to keep it away from other groups. India (or Pakistan) is no exception.

However, there are a few factors in India that make the situation more dangerous than in other countries:

1) India has a gigantic Muslim minority. It also has a huge Christian minority. Countries like Pakistan, have very small religious minorities. As crude as it may sound, small minorities can be, ``controlled and suppressed`` without too much difficulty. However, 140 million plus 26 million people can cause a great deal of trouble, and have a large nuisance value, if they miss the economic boat.

2) From whatever I have read, the Indian Muslim minority is at the bottom of the economic todem pole in India. The first time this struck me was observing the near complete lack of Indian Muslims, in comparison to Indian Hindus (or even Pakistani Muslims), in the US IT industry, and in US universities.

I was listening to a radio broadcast recently, on the severly low percentages of East Pakistanis in Pakistan`s various govt. sector positions during the 70 timeframe. I later read an article at the Indian Muslim site, www.milligazzete.com, that pointed to similarly extremely low percentages of Indian Muslims in Indian govt. positions.

3) Bangladesh became an independent country when Pakistan was at the peak of its economic growth rates. It had left India way behind, in this area. However at the same time, economically, the gap between West and East Pakistanis was getting larger and larger. India is now in a similar situation, i.e. it is economically progressing, but the gap between Indian Hindus and Muslims is getting larger and larger.

4) Despite all the propoganda (some true) about the influence of extremist religious parties in Pakistan, none of them have ever gained more than 5% of the seats in the National Assembly (in the last election they ran on a combined platfrom and won 2 out of 217+). In India, an extremist Hindu party (please visit www.bjp.org) is now winning again and again. This indicates that India has moved from being a secular society and politic with a secular constitution, to a religious society and politic with a secular constitution. This fact is well accepted by secular Hindus, also. This is furthur flaming the fires of Hindu-Muslim hatred.

People tend to rightly point out the problems Pakistan has/is facing with religious extremism. Luckily, Pakistan is now fighting these out openly, and we will soon know which side it falls on. However, in my opinion, by far the biggest battle on religion is going to shape up in India, due to the factors defined above. Inter-religious riots in Pakistan have never resulted numbers even close to the number of deaths as those in Indian riots. Pakistan can survive without being a secular state. It`s religious minorities are in small numbers, and thus cannot cause too much, ``trouble.`` However, I don`t think it is possible for India to survive without being a pure secular state.

To its credit, India was able to do so quite well (by third world standards, that is) for quite a while, in keeping religious harmony in its country, under very challenging circumstances. However, now I see the same situation developing between Indian Hindus and Muslims that occured between Bengalis and Pakistanis. For some reason, very few Hindu Indians seems to consider this a big problem. And when an Indian Muslim points it out, he is attacked from different sides.

If the current progress in India fails to carry its Muslim population along, I am afraid the situation in India could get polarized, beyond control. I am quite happy that East Pakistan was geographically isolated from Pakistan. This allowed it to separate, and in the end I think both East and West are better off (I think they should have been two countries to begin with). However, the Indian Muslims are spread out all over India. If this article is even 1/4th accurate, then India could be facing a huge problem (even if it is more secular and tolerant than all third world countries of the world; which it maybe).

Perhaps I am reading the situation completely wrong. But one of my Hindu Indian friends, did describe this as India`s ticking time bomb.

`` It cannot be denied that the caste- ridden Hindu society was overnight transformed into a cosmopolitan character with the influx of Muslims``
???

`` Some years back New York Times carried a special report highlighting extracts from transcripts of Bombay police radio conversation that clearly revealed police participation in arson against the Muslims. ``

I am surprised the author didnot mention the SriKrishna report which details the police and politicans complicity in the Bomabay riots in great detail.

``Today there is hardly any Islamic monument in India, from Taj Mahal to a totally unknown tomb that’s not a subject of controversy between the two communities and why muslims alone ?``

Can the author care to list these? India has hundreds of Islamic monuments, surely, what does author mean by `hardly`?

``On account of being educationally deficient they found it difficult to enter the civil services but the minority finds no place even in class IV jobs ! There isn’t a single industrial house which figures among the country’s top 100.``

On what basis does the author say that the minority finds no place in class IV jobs? Re top 100, whats the name of the guy who offered cheap generic AIDS drugs to organisations fighting AIDS in Africa ? WHat is the source of author`s statement about the top 100, please?

``The most commonly quoted example is the cricket scenario, where Muslims are looked down upon for cheering Pakistan. But can it be ignored that the Hindu community is no less happy with Pakistan’s defeat ? It is linked to psychology rather than fact which cannot be adequately substantiated. ``

Exactly. Thats why we would appreciate an adequate substantiation of the facts presented by the author.

`` In some places, riots are checked within hours while other places continue to burn for weeks inspite of the presence of the Defence Minister !!``

Again, please be specific which incident you are talking about regarding the Defence Minister so we can understand what you are talking about?

`` All beef eaters in India are termed as Pakistanis.``

This is where I really begin to wonder about where the author is coming from. So many Indians eat beef, I have never heard anyone being called a ``Pakistani``. Even Christians eat beef, Muslims eat beef. Why would a Hindu be called a `Pakistani` of all things?

My question to the author is : how long have you lived in India? Where did you do your schooling?

Srikrishna committee report on the riots in Bombay:
http://www.altindia.net/srikrishnareport.htm
Actuals names of police personnel against whom action is recommended are listed.

How can an Indian Muslim mentioning the Bombay riots and police complicity not know about this report and quote a comment in a New York Times article instead? This report has been in all over the news in that connection, because it has been a major source of contention between affected parties. The report was totally disawowed and discredited during the Shiv Sena period in Maharashtra and the constant refrain post-Shiv-Sena has been that its recommendations are not being acted upon with the required speed and commitment. I would expect an Indian Muslim to protest THAT, not merely `hint` at what is common knowledge.

I cannot believe that anyone taking an interest in this subject (the Muslim community and riots, specifically Bombay) will not know all this. Why, the police role in the riots was even picturised in a Hindi movie (named ?where Hrithik Roshan plays the affected Muslim)

Shahid,

You are a typical north indian muslim of the lost moghul variety. Progress today is only through education and hard work, dont sit and read the koran and wait for the hand outs to come. You claim to be a traveler, if you have ever travelled to kerala, you will find that more mosques have been built in the last twenty yearrs than all of your wretched moghul history that you you hank back.

Muslim of kerala have achieved it simply because they are not part of your ilk of the muslims, always under the dread that what the ghouris have given to the hindus, the new BJP will give back to the muslims. What you are frightened about is the leagacy of the gaznavis and the ghouris, and if you have any affinity with the pakistanis for whom the above are heros, you may as well stew and die in that fear, you deserve it every bit.

If you want to help the muslims of your ilk in the north india, try and travel to kerala, or tamil nadu and learn something. There could be something different in those places than what is in the book.

regards and best wishes.

jay

By the way dont try to white wash the temple distructions of the past as norm of the day, it is per the book, continued even today, ask the bhumian budhas. Same with kafir killings, ask the shias of pakistan, and of afghanistan after taliban take over. Dont forget, teaching of the book is eternal, there are no revisions to the book. An islamic apologist from india is a disgusting creature, they look much normal and natural from pakistan. There are no fatwas in india, some parts of the book you can say is crap and move on, dont behave like a disgustinbg paki.

Oh boy I missed that one . . . lack of industries run by Muslims in India . . . I guess his medeival history doesn`t recognise most ``other`` kind of Muslims . . . and then ``other`` kind of Muslims in the Armed Forces, Police, civil services, private sector . . . hey, they don`t count!!

I think this writer needs to please first of all clarify his definition of ``Muslim``.

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The Anti-Muslim Circular issued by the Indian Union

Indian Express, Wednesday, March 1, 2000



Anti-Muslim circular is not just for prisoners of the past

ARUNA CHAKRAVORTY

FEBRUARY 29: The circular is apparent in its violation of the Constitutional rights of equality guaranteed to every citizen of the country, irrespective of religion, colour, caste, sex and place of birth. But it survived 40 years of active implementation. It is only now that the 1960 circular issued by the Deputy Inspector General (DIG) of Prisons (Maharashtra), blatantly differentiating between Muslim and non-Muslim prisoners, is being challenged in the Bombay High Court.

Interestingly also, the circular challenged by the prisoner-petitioner Hemant Janardan Kantak was chanced upon by his advocates when collecting papers for the petition. Though the circular does not bear directly on his case, it is being challenged simply because of the prima facie violation of the Constitution.

Finding it ``on the face of it, arbitrary and discriminatory``, Justice T K Chandrashekhar Das today directed the chief secretary of the state to file an affidavit on it within two weeks.

The circular, based on a letter issued by the then DIG (Prisons) on October 1, 1960 deals with the surety amount to be paid by prisoners released for their furlough leave (a short leave of around 14 days mandatorily allowed to them during the time they are serving term in prison). It instructs the superintendents of all prisons to ``obtain a surety bond for the amount of Rs

100 from the relatives of non-Muslim prisoners



and a surety bond for Rs 1,000 in respect of



uslim prisoners.`` The letter, however, adds that the IG (Inspector General) can increase the amount of surety to be taken on individual cases on their merits in respect of ``non-Muslim prisoners`` only.

The challenge to the circular is a part of a criminal writ petition filed by advocate Arfan Sait for his client, Kantak where Kantak -- sentenced to five years` severe imprisonment under section 3 of the TADA Act along with Section 25 of the Arms Act 25, serving sentence in the Nasik prison -- has been asked to furnish a personal bond of Rs 100 as well as two sureties of Rs 5,000 each from two relatives before going on his leave.

Arguing on his behalf, counsel for the petitioner, advocate N N Gavankar, has contended that for a short furlough leave of 14 days, a surety bond of Rs 10,000 is exorbitant and harsh. He has also argued there is no provision in the prison manual prescribing the value or amount of surety for the petitioner, and it is only on the basis of this circular that the surety amounts are being decided.

However, while this aspect of the petition remained inconclusive, the arguments against the circular that it was discriminating on the basis of religion and was thus violative of Article 15, met with instant response. Justice Das in his order noted that the circular was ``on the face of it, arbitrary and discriminatory``. The judge noted that the discrimination was ``quite startling and hits at the very roots of the concept of secularism promised in the Constitution of India.``

While the question to be asked is how the circular survived these 40 years, the bench directed the chief secretary of the state to file an affidavit in two weeks on the matter. The next hearing will take place after three weeks on March 21, 2000.

RSaxena,

{{Good riddance.}}

Yeah, right on!

Just when I thought things were hunky dory; RSS (R Saxena Sangh) decides to park his smelly butt in the US.

sigh...there goes the neighborhood...