India’s Communal Gamble

So what ever happened to the perfect secular democracy of the day dreamers on these boards?

this fellow puts the same one-sided spin on everything that he accuses historians of...hypocrisy crystallized.

The sooner we forget most of the contrived history of medievel india better it is for the country.When you say muslim RULERS ,it does not mean 99.99999999999999999 % of muslims ever were royal or have any inheritence from it or been benefeciary of it.It only puts the muslim on an unsympathetic platform like the czars ,& all the royals who were butchered & deserved to be according to the new socialistic justice for all the persecution of past.

Regardless of kings & queens in india were muslims ,the majority of Muslims of India,NOW, are more close to lower strata of caste system or mainly unchanged from there agragarian livelihood from 100 yrs prior to independence & 54 yrs after the independence.

The few lucky ,talented & reselient who did make themselves into somthing in Calcutta,Delhi Mumbai ,Kanpur ,Jamshedpur,Bokaro,Ahmedabad,etc industrial belts ALL HAVE ONE TIME OR ANOTHER HAVE FACED DEVASTATING PHYSICAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAUMA OF ORGANIZED PRE MEDITATED PLANNED COMMUNAL DEMOLITION in the last 50 yrs somtime more than once.

It is said one should be thankfull in whatever bad situation one finds in.In that respect ofcourse Indian muslims have also air ,water,food,clothing ,health to thank full for .Of course they are better than the tutse tribe in Rowanda & under the gun of Mighty America ,Taleban,BUT THEN EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE.

The sooner we forget most of the contrived history of medievel india better it is for the country.When you say muslim RULERS ,it does not mean 99.99999999999999999 % of muslims ever were royal or have any inheritence from it or been benefeciary of it.It only puts the muslim on an unsympathetic platform like the czars ,& all the royals who were butchered & deserved to be according to the new socialistic justice for all the persecution of past.

Regardless of kings & queens in india were muslims ,the majority of Muslims of India,NOW, are more close to lower strata of caste system or mainly unchanged from there agragarian livelihood from 100 yrs prior to independence & 54 yrs after the independence.

The few lucky ,talented & reselient who did make themselves into somthing in Calcutta,Delhi Mumbai ,Kanpur ,Jamshedpur,Bokaro,Ahmedabad,etc industrial belts ALL HAVE ONE TIME OR ANOTHER HAVE FACED DEVASTATING PHYSICAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAUMA OF ORGANIZED PRE MEDITATED PLANNED COMMUNAL DEMOLITION in the last 50 yrs somtime more than once.

It is said one should be thankfull in whatever bad situation one finds in.In that respect ofcourse Indian muslims have also air ,water,food,clothing ,health to thank full for .Of course they are better than the tutse tribe in Rowanda & under the gun of Mighty America ,Taleban,BUT THEN EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE.

I began reading this article with great interest. After a couple of paragraphs I decided to drop it, thinking that the author was one of those whose ``opinions`` about India regularly show up in Pakistani newspapers, or a contributor to one of the objective websites such as Dalitstan.

Then I noticed the author actually lives in Delhi. That means just dismissing the article doesn`t do anybody any good. So, I will come back and read it, and respond. It is possible the author has something useful to say, and not merely breaking out into a rant that tells us more about him than about India as it stands today.

Welcome to Chowk Mr. Makhfi,

With all the people bashing you, I thought you`ll need a welcome.

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari

Gret men! weri gret!

India creats a lot of noise about being a victim of terrorism which is reality is a hoax created by the Indian establishment to hide its own record on terrorism and human rights.I have tried to do an analysis of India on these two criteria and would appreciate comments from all shades of opinion.

-India created, trained and supported the LTTE in srilanka,the most gruesome terrorist organisation the world has ever seen.

After LTTE fell out with India another terrorist group the EPRLF was created to destabilse Srilanka.

- India trains tibetian refugees in India and has created the VIKAS REGIMENT in ladakh which comprises soley of tibetians who want to wage war against China.This is a group which opposes the Dalai Lama who wants a peaceful resolution of the Tibetian issue.

- India created the Ikwan group in Kashmir which is responsible for gross human rights voilations ,rapes, custodial killings and massacres throughout the valley.(source Amnesty international)

- Indian Govt. actively supports and protects the Bajrang Dal and Shiv sena in india ,two groups which easily qualify as terrorist organisations.

- India supported the PLO when this group resorted to hijacking and terror tactics.Once PLO gave up voilence Indian support tilted towards Isreal.

- India supported Saddam Hussein and his Baath party before and during the Gulf war when his evil empire was massacring the shais, kurds and the kuwaitis.India still maintains contacts with Saddam if only to destabilise the gulf region.

- India supports the northern Allaince thugs in Afganistan, who were responsible for 60,000 civilian deaths, rapes and looting during their rule from 1992 to 1996.Tis was when Taliban had not been formed and this is the the reason America shuns this group now.

- Indian supported the Serbs and Milosovic during the Balkan war both convicted war criminals.

-Indian secret agency RAW carries out terrorist actions in Nepal,Bangladesh,Burma and of course Pakistan.

- India agencies support the Chakma rebels in Bangladesh and communists in Nepal two groups responsible for voilence in these two countries.

-India terrorist group SULFA in Assam has be implicated in massacres,rapes and human rights voilation in this north eastern state.

- India is the only country in the world where all its minorities ,muslims,sikhs and the christians have regularly suffered massacres and had their properties and places of worship destroyed.

- Indian democratic system does not allow adequate representation to its minorities and only a hindu brahmin can aspire for the top post.Minorities and lower castes usually are given cermonial posts like the president and vice president whcih in reality have no powers.



VIKAS REGIMENT: http://www.flonnet.com/fl1616/16160240.htm

Mindless Chinese provocation? In May, one of the most curious units of the Indian Army saw its first known combat deployment. The Vikas Regiment is commanded by Indian officers but its soldiers are children of refugees from Tibet. The Tibe tan soldiers are hired on fixed-term contracts and take orders from a special political office under the command of the Dalai Lama. In effect, India was doing exactly what it now complains that Pakistan engages in: funding, training and arming a force of foreign nationals with the purpose of waging war against a neighbour.

IKHWAN IN KASHMIR: http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kashmir/militias.htm

SULFA ASSAM: http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/ASA200142000?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%5CINDIA

BAJRANG DAL AGAINST CHRISTIANS. http://www.mcjonline.com/news/00/20000515c.htm

LTTE IN SRILANKA: http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/19971113/31750493.html

CHAKMAS IN BANGLADESH http://www.ipcs.org/issues/articles/293-ban-zarien.html

NORTHERN ALLAINCE IN AFGHANISTAN:

Read the joint indo -russian statement today and for northern allaince record read the amnesty report.

SADDAM AND INDIA:

Do I have to remind you that Mr.Gujral paid a visit to Iraq just before the gulf war and thats what a US senator mentioned in his report the other day in the US senate when he said that India supported iraq during the gulf war. (source New york Times)

Re: Eklayva

The daily Dung and Yawn write one of these articles everyday in Pakistan. Shouldn`t be anything new, right?

I guess my advice to the author is same I gave to some others. DOn`t like India, then go somewhere else. Afghanistan`s rulers are looking for a few good Muslims.

Muslims were great and tolerant, Hindus are bad and bigoted-that seems to be the general thrust of this article. Frankly, as somebody from Bangladesh, right now (post Sept 11)I am glad it is a ``Hindu`` India next door than a Mughal or other ``Muslim`` India.

At least in India there is court/magistrate and litigation. SOmewhere in ummah-land, they wouldn`t even have bothered with that nicety. Wanna know how disputes about archaeological-religious sites are settled in much of the Islamic world- take a look at Iran (Bahai and Zorastrian sites) or Libya (Roman sites) and of course Afghanistan. The only `litigation` there is the barrell of a tank cannon.

India can be a very communal and bigoted place for non-Hindus. Her record in Bombay, Punjab, and Kashmir reeks of that bigotry. But she is a far, far better than most of the denizens of Islamic `civilization`. And Amen for that!

Shahid,

A warm welcome and many thanks for writing on chowk. It is good to hear brave Indian voices like yours and Farzana Versey`s.

You are a brave soul indeed. In the next few days, you will be called an ISI agent, a Pakistan lover, an Islamic fundamentalist etc. etc. and will get offers of one way tickets to Afghanistan/Pakistan. All this happened to Farzana Versey when she first wrote here. If you are as unlucky as Farzana, you might loose your job/assignments, like she lost her column at Midday India.

I hope for the sake of your safety that you haven`t used your real name.

I will be as provocative as the article.

Fact: People respect only those things which they feel belong to them.

Fact: Muslims continually talk of ``Muslim rule.`` Similar to British talk of ``British Raj.`` Obviously, Hindus will feel that they have achieved liberation from both.

Fact: People hate colonial forces. So, Hindus naturally hate Muslim and British rulers and their monuments. So Kashmiri Muslims hate Hindus and Hindu monuments.

Fact: Their are only 2 possibilities. The whole subcontinent becomes completely secular or India becomes a Hindu state. History will decide.

Once again, typical Muslim victim complex.

Blame your ills on others and live in past.

I think the author has a point. Hindu society has been increasingly playing the religious card. That portends very dark clouds for India.

Personally, I think the BJP & its ideological mentor RSS, is a dangerous party. Militant hinduism is more dangerous to India than militant islam.

Since I left India in 81, my feelings at every visit, is that the standard of living has improved but Indian society as a whole has become less secular. That; in addition to ``wall to wall people`` means more & more communal problems in the future.

Not a good time to be a minority in India (never was), but its worse now.

Do I blame the muslims that many of them wanted a country that ensured they were in the majority?--ABSOLUTELY NOT! There is no doubt in my mind that, in that respect, a muslim would be better off in Pakistan than India.

On the other side of the coin; my feeling is that the creation of Pakistan has solved one problem; but only to replaced by others. There was a civil war between Bengalis & the W.Pakistanis; people are dying of secterian killings. Social problems, combined with religion in politics has created similar social upheavals in Pakistan.

So whats the moral of the story?! Human beings are inherently divisive creatures. In theory; if every single minority in India

was deported --then hindus will cease to be hindus. Then brahmins will fight with other castes, tamilians will fight with maharashtrians, punjabis with keralites & on & on.

Its a good thing Indians have Pakistan & they have Indians. It kinda keeps the two countries from fragmenting even more. Its better to fight ``them`` than to fight with ``one of us``.

Thank God human minds are crazy--it pays my bills. Hey, we shrinks have families to feed too, you know:)

interesting article. but i have to say, every majority religious group in history has been known to destroy minority values. so the Hindus are expressing their share of destruction.

it doesn`t make it right, but it`s also wrong to be so accusatory. Just like the fact that the actions of Muslim fundamentalists shouldn`t be used to judge Islam, the action of Hindu fanatics shouldn`t be used to judge Hinduism or all Hindus.

I really think more Hindus respect Muslim cultural influences in India than you think.

I agree with you on one point though. The Indian government is not as ``secular`` and ``democratic`` as

it pretends to be.

Nothing compared to the West.

Eklavya

`I decided to drop it, thinking that the author was one of those whose ``opinions`` about India regularly show up in Pakistani newspapers`

The articles by Indians I have read in Dawn, Fridaytimes and the News have been by the following writers:

1) M J Akbar

2) A G Noorani

3) Kuldip Narain

4) S Udaykumar

Can you please elaborate on your comment ? Doesnt help to throw out allegations in the air ... especially when its some one like you Raj, someone who has the respect from the otherside.

-YLH

I am rather shocked by comments of Rsaxena, ZZ etc. This guy seems to be a patriotic Indian citizen who is concerned about his own country...

Ironic isnt it that people like Hamidm are heroes to Rsaxena, but Mr Makhfi, Farzana Versey, and even studebaker are `hypocrites` for him. Yesterday some Indian told me that `Arundati Roy` was nothing but a whore... how sad is that? To the same Indian Asma Jehangir was the angel of the first class. The only hypocrites are people like Rsaxena, who clearly are guilty of double standards.

-YLH

Note to the Author:

``...There isn’t a single (Muslim, I presume) industrial house which figures among the country’s top 100...``

Factually incorrect -- Wipro (Azim Premji, Chairman) is the top Indian IT exporter and the most valuable Indian firm on BSE and NADAQ. Mr. Premji holds shares in nearly 70%(?) of company.

Details aside, the author should be commended for highlighting the potentially disastrous consequences of thoughtlessly stoking the communal/religious cauldron. It is time to move on beyond `reconstructing` ancient religious sites. If a wrong was done in the past, the way to correct it is NOT by repeating it in the present. It is time to let bygones be bygones.

Also, the author mentions Mehrauli (near Delhi) in the context of Qutab Minar and the site of the 2nd muslim ruler of India. Mehrauli is also the site of Prithvi Raj Chauhan`s (last Hindu ruler of Delhi) tomb and palace complex (now ruined). The choice of the earliest Muslim rulers to have chosen that location to build their palace may not be purely coincidental.

why do Indians get so angry and hostile when faced with self criticism?

i don`t think the writer hates India, he`s just expressing his take on some matters.

if Indians are so intellectually `liberated` as they claim to be, they should take this criticism (albeit a little one sided) well.

Agreed, there are lot of things missing in social, secular and democratic fabric of India. But where are the suggestions to improve the situation?

Re: ylh

I see you`re aching for another lickin`...but heck, even I feel bad and will let it slide.

I suggest you read sigalph`s post carefully. Or is he not credible?

{{sigalph235

I guess my advice to the author is same I gave to some others. DOn`t like India, then go somewhere else. Afghanistan`s rulers are looking for a few good Muslims.

Muslims were great and tolerant, Hindus are bad and bigoted-that seems to be the general thrust of this article. Frankly, as somebody from Bangladesh, right now (post Sept 11)I am glad it is a ``Hindu`` India next door than a Mughal or other ``Muslim`` India.

At least in India there is court/magistrate and litigation. SOmewhere in ummah-land, they wouldn`t even have bothered with that nicety. Wanna know how disputes about archaeological-religious sites are settled in much of the Islamic world- take a look at Iran (Bahai and Zorastrian sites) or Libya (Roman sites) and of course Afghanistan. The only `litigation` there is the barrell of a tank cannon.

India can be a very communal and bigoted place for non-Hindus. Her record in Bombay, Punjab, and Kashmir reeks of that bigotry. But she is a far, far better than most of the denizens of Islamic `civilization`. And Amen for that!}}

Dear Shahid. . . your forte, it seems, is a very one-sided view on things historical and current.

Let us take one small example, of green tiles in toilets. On the other hand, the Indian Army wears green and all their vehicles are green. DTC buses are green. ``chowk`` on the other hand has saffron colour on its front page. What does any of that prove? When I drink a lot the evening before, next morning my pee is saffron in colour, oh horrible Hindoo?

On the demolition or weathering away of old buildings of all sorts from religions of all sorts to make way for new buildings of all sorts, well, so what? Should we sue Saudia for the crime of the Arabian Sea submerging the holy city of Dwarka? No, we get along with life and Tatas make one of their biggest industrial units there thus giving prosperity to the region. So is that good or bad? Ask the people who live there? No, you only want to study history, right?

Changing names of cities, towns, so what? How many names do historical cities have, name a few which have remained the same over, say, a few hundred or thousand years and I will name ten that haven`t and changed as often as the rivers changed their courses. On the other hand, why don`t you also mention that our BJP Prime Minister lives in an area bounded by Shah Jahan Road, Tughlak Road, Akbar Road, Prithvi Raj Road, Teen Murti Circle and Race Course Road? No, that is inconvienient to your history, isn`t it?

The Bahai Temple came up on land appropriated from the Kalkaji Temple and a no-name mosque operated by a Muslim person I knew dealing in heavy lift equipment, in the region of Okhla level crossing, so what? Do you understand that the commercial benefits to the mosque and temple managements were in multiples of what happened before the Bahai temple came? But of course, your history, kind sir, will gloss over what happened to the Bahais. Does your medeival history even start to mention what happened to the Bahais? Who that?

Would you, also, kind historian, like to talk about the way Indian society treats Jews, Ahmediyas, Bohras, Parsis, and other religions, including many which are part of Islam? No Sir, that is not convienient for your medieval history studies, right?

``Graves ripped apart``. Apart from the British Government maintained war grave commission, which other graveyard in India is not ``ripped apart`` due to the march of humanity? Care to visit the Nizamuddin Area and see who is ripping up graves to set up small businesses of tyre re-sale, junk market and meat shops? Nahee-nahee, hamara medeival history is tarah kaa nahee hai!!

Muslims in India a terrorised lot, frustrated and burning in anger? I don`t think so. I know plenty of Muslims in India who don`t think so too. Yes, failed historians may be a frustrated lot and especially those who think 2001- 1947 is equal to 47 years!!

Rabid nonsense from somebody who has, it seems, decided that the best place to look for medeival history is to use his own nose to look up his own posterior.

For the rest at chowk:- Pardon my french, but I got to now go for breakfast at Good Luck in Pune and ask the owner if he is terrorised and frustrated as he serves me my standard keema and anda-paratha, sure we are not a perfect country but what b/s the author writes and what examples he pulls.

Forgive me for driving a purple car with an orange slash on the bonnet, but I do have a gree coloured light on the dashboard at night which the manufacturers, horrible Hindus called Suzuki, have given me a rheostat switch to dim it by . . . and all aeroplanes and ships have green lights only on side when there should have been both . . . and the green traffic light on the Indian streets is below the amber (saffron) one and if that isn`t an example of subjugating a complete religion then maybe they should ban the sale of green bedsheets in India, imagine infidels sometimes have sex on them green bedsheets!!!!

Ylh,

:)

You, my dear friend, don`t know that I have to work very hard to keep the reckless, hot-headed side of me in check. Most of my life I have been less Gandhi and more Jihadi!

But you are quite right about all those names. They are among the very best in the field of South-Asian journalism. I was frothing and foaming more about the articles written by some Pakistanis who never see any good in Indian secularism or in Indian democracy.

Farzana,

Where are you? You don`t want me to spill the beans now, do you? :)

Dear Mr. Makhfi,

My apologies for the rather harsh welcome (actually, it was harsher the first time I typed it out :)). You make some good points, and I am sure we will all have opportunity to discuss them.

Regards.

EK

Re: shrinker

``Since I left India in 81,``

Good riddance.

Ref nehru #8:

[SADDAM AND INDIA:

Do I have to remind you that Mr.Gujral paid a visit to Iraq just before the gulf war and thats what a US senator mentioned in his report the other day in the US senate when he said that India supported iraq during the gulf war. (source New york Times)]

You pathetic pea-brained idiot. India provided landing rights to USAF aircraft and provided fuel to them during the 1991 Desert Storm campaign.

Now, why don`t you repeat the canard that Mossad bombed the WTC Towers and warned the 4000 Jews who worked there so that they could stay away from work?

It is a fact that religious (and to a smaller extent ethnic) minorities in uneducated third-world countries will not be treated well. The pie is small, and everyone is going to use whatever leverage they have to keep it away from other groups. India (or Pakistan) is no exception.

However, there are a few factors in India that make the situation more dangerous than in other countries:

1) India has a gigantic Muslim minority. It also has a huge Christian minority. Countries like Pakistan, have very small religious minorities. As crude as it may sound, small minorities can be, ``controlled and suppressed`` without too much difficulty. However, 140 million plus 26 million people can cause a great deal of trouble, and have a large nuisance value, if they miss the economic boat.

2) From whatever I have read, the Indian Muslim minority is at the bottom of the economic todem pole in India. The first time this struck me was observing the near complete lack of Indian Muslims, in comparison to Indian Hindus (or even Pakistani Muslims), in the US IT industry, and in US universities.

I was listening to a radio broadcast recently, on the severly low percentages of East Pakistanis in Pakistan`s various govt. sector positions during the 70 timeframe. I later read an article at the Indian Muslim site, www.milligazzete.com, that pointed to similarly extremely low percentages of Indian Muslims in Indian govt. positions.

3) Bangladesh became an independent country when Pakistan was at the peak of its economic growth rates. It had left India way behind, in this area. However at the same time, economically, the gap between West and East Pakistanis was getting larger and larger. India is now in a similar situation, i.e. it is economically progressing, but the gap between Indian Hindus and Muslims is getting larger and larger.

4) Despite all the propoganda (some true) about the influence of extremist religious parties in Pakistan, none of them have ever gained more than 5% of the seats in the National Assembly (in the last election they ran on a combined platfrom and won 2 out of 217+). In India, an extremist Hindu party (please visit www.bjp.org) is now winning again and again. This indicates that India has moved from being a secular society and politic with a secular constitution, to a religious society and politic with a secular constitution. This fact is well accepted by secular Hindus, also. This is furthur flaming the fires of Hindu-Muslim hatred.

People tend to rightly point out the problems Pakistan has/is facing with religious extremism. Luckily, Pakistan is now fighting these out openly, and we will soon know which side it falls on. However, in my opinion, by far the biggest battle on religion is going to shape up in India, due to the factors defined above. Inter-religious riots in Pakistan have never resulted numbers even close to the number of deaths as those in Indian riots. Pakistan can survive without being a secular state. It`s religious minorities are in small numbers, and thus cannot cause too much, ``trouble.`` However, I don`t think it is possible for India to survive without being a pure secular state.

To its credit, India was able to do so quite well (by third world standards, that is) for quite a while, in keeping religious harmony in its country, under very challenging circumstances. However, now I see the same situation developing between Indian Hindus and Muslims that occured between Bengalis and Pakistanis. For some reason, very few Hindu Indians seems to consider this a big problem. And when an Indian Muslim points it out, he is attacked from different sides.

If the current progress in India fails to carry its Muslim population along, I am afraid the situation in India could get polarized, beyond control. I am quite happy that East Pakistan was geographically isolated from Pakistan. This allowed it to separate, and in the end I think both East and West are better off (I think they should have been two countries to begin with). However, the Indian Muslims are spread out all over India. If this article is even 1/4th accurate, then India could be facing a huge problem (even if it is more secular and tolerant than all third world countries of the world; which it maybe).

Perhaps I am reading the situation completely wrong. But one of my Hindu Indian friends, did describe this as India`s ticking time bomb.

`` It cannot be denied that the caste- ridden Hindu society was overnight transformed into a cosmopolitan character with the influx of Muslims``
???

`` Some years back New York Times carried a special report highlighting extracts from transcripts of Bombay police radio conversation that clearly revealed police participation in arson against the Muslims. ``

I am surprised the author didnot mention the SriKrishna report which details the police and politicans complicity in the Bomabay riots in great detail.

``Today there is hardly any Islamic monument in India, from Taj Mahal to a totally unknown tomb that’s not a subject of controversy between the two communities and why muslims alone ?``

Can the author care to list these? India has hundreds of Islamic monuments, surely, what does author mean by `hardly`?

``On account of being educationally deficient they found it difficult to enter the civil services but the minority finds no place even in class IV jobs ! There isn’t a single industrial house which figures among the country’s top 100.``

On what basis does the author say that the minority finds no place in class IV jobs? Re top 100, whats the name of the guy who offered cheap generic AIDS drugs to organisations fighting AIDS in Africa ? WHat is the source of author`s statement about the top 100, please?

``The most commonly quoted example is the cricket scenario, where Muslims are looked down upon for cheering Pakistan. But can it be ignored that the Hindu community is no less happy with Pakistan’s defeat ? It is linked to psychology rather than fact which cannot be adequately substantiated. ``

Exactly. Thats why we would appreciate an adequate substantiation of the facts presented by the author.

`` In some places, riots are checked within hours while other places continue to burn for weeks inspite of the presence of the Defence Minister !!``

Again, please be specific which incident you are talking about regarding the Defence Minister so we can understand what you are talking about?

`` All beef eaters in India are termed as Pakistanis.``

This is where I really begin to wonder about where the author is coming from. So many Indians eat beef, I have never heard anyone being called a ``Pakistani``. Even Christians eat beef, Muslims eat beef. Why would a Hindu be called a `Pakistani` of all things?

My question to the author is : how long have you lived in India? Where did you do your schooling?

Srikrishna committee report on the riots in Bombay:
http://www.altindia.net/srikrishnareport.htm
Actuals names of police personnel against whom action is recommended are listed.

How can an Indian Muslim mentioning the Bombay riots and police complicity not know about this report and quote a comment in a New York Times article instead? This report has been in all over the news in that connection, because it has been a major source of contention between affected parties. The report was totally disawowed and discredited during the Shiv Sena period in Maharashtra and the constant refrain post-Shiv-Sena has been that its recommendations are not being acted upon with the required speed and commitment. I would expect an Indian Muslim to protest THAT, not merely `hint` at what is common knowledge.

I cannot believe that anyone taking an interest in this subject (the Muslim community and riots, specifically Bombay) will not know all this. Why, the police role in the riots was even picturised in a Hindi movie (named ?where Hrithik Roshan plays the affected Muslim)

Shahid,

You are a typical north indian muslim of the lost moghul variety. Progress today is only through education and hard work, dont sit and read the koran and wait for the hand outs to come. You claim to be a traveler, if you have ever travelled to kerala, you will find that more mosques have been built in the last twenty yearrs than all of your wretched moghul history that you you hank back.

Muslim of kerala have achieved it simply because they are not part of your ilk of the muslims, always under the dread that what the ghouris have given to the hindus, the new BJP will give back to the muslims. What you are frightened about is the leagacy of the gaznavis and the ghouris, and if you have any affinity with the pakistanis for whom the above are heros, you may as well stew and die in that fear, you deserve it every bit.

If you want to help the muslims of your ilk in the north india, try and travel to kerala, or tamil nadu and learn something. There could be something different in those places than what is in the book.

regards and best wishes.

jay

By the way dont try to white wash the temple distructions of the past as norm of the day, it is per the book, continued even today, ask the bhumian budhas. Same with kafir killings, ask the shias of pakistan, and of afghanistan after taliban take over. Dont forget, teaching of the book is eternal, there are no revisions to the book. An islamic apologist from india is a disgusting creature, they look much normal and natural from pakistan. There are no fatwas in india, some parts of the book you can say is crap and move on, dont behave like a disgustinbg paki.

Oh boy I missed that one . . . lack of industries run by Muslims in India . . . I guess his medeival history doesn`t recognise most ``other`` kind of Muslims . . . and then ``other`` kind of Muslims in the Armed Forces, Police, civil services, private sector . . . hey, they don`t count!!

I think this writer needs to please first of all clarify his definition of ``Muslim``.

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The Anti-Muslim Circular issued by the Indian Union

Indian Express, Wednesday, March 1, 2000



Anti-Muslim circular is not just for prisoners of the past

ARUNA CHAKRAVORTY

FEBRUARY 29: The circular is apparent in its violation of the Constitutional rights of equality guaranteed to every citizen of the country, irrespective of religion, colour, caste, sex and place of birth. But it survived 40 years of active implementation. It is only now that the 1960 circular issued by the Deputy Inspector General (DIG) of Prisons (Maharashtra), blatantly differentiating between Muslim and non-Muslim prisoners, is being challenged in the Bombay High Court.

Interestingly also, the circular challenged by the prisoner-petitioner Hemant Janardan Kantak was chanced upon by his advocates when collecting papers for the petition. Though the circular does not bear directly on his case, it is being challenged simply because of the prima facie violation of the Constitution.

Finding it ``on the face of it, arbitrary and discriminatory``, Justice T K Chandrashekhar Das today directed the chief secretary of the state to file an affidavit on it within two weeks.

The circular, based on a letter issued by the then DIG (Prisons) on October 1, 1960 deals with the surety amount to be paid by prisoners released for their furlough leave (a short leave of around 14 days mandatorily allowed to them during the time they are serving term in prison). It instructs the superintendents of all prisons to ``obtain a surety bond for the amount of Rs

100 from the relatives of non-Muslim prisoners



and a surety bond for Rs 1,000 in respect of



uslim prisoners.`` The letter, however, adds that the IG (Inspector General) can increase the amount of surety to be taken on individual cases on their merits in respect of ``non-Muslim prisoners`` only.

The challenge to the circular is a part of a criminal writ petition filed by advocate Arfan Sait for his client, Kantak where Kantak -- sentenced to five years` severe imprisonment under section 3 of the TADA Act along with Section 25 of the Arms Act 25, serving sentence in the Nasik prison -- has been asked to furnish a personal bond of Rs 100 as well as two sureties of Rs 5,000 each from two relatives before going on his leave.

Arguing on his behalf, counsel for the petitioner, advocate N N Gavankar, has contended that for a short furlough leave of 14 days, a surety bond of Rs 10,000 is exorbitant and harsh. He has also argued there is no provision in the prison manual prescribing the value or amount of surety for the petitioner, and it is only on the basis of this circular that the surety amounts are being decided.

However, while this aspect of the petition remained inconclusive, the arguments against the circular that it was discriminating on the basis of religion and was thus violative of Article 15, met with instant response. Justice Das in his order noted that the circular was ``on the face of it, arbitrary and discriminatory``. The judge noted that the discrimination was ``quite startling and hits at the very roots of the concept of secularism promised in the Constitution of India.``

While the question to be asked is how the circular survived these 40 years, the bench directed the chief secretary of the state to file an affidavit in two weeks on the matter. The next hearing will take place after three weeks on March 21, 2000.

RSaxena,

{{Good riddance.}}

Yeah, right on!

Just when I thought things were hunky dory; RSS (R Saxena Sangh) decides to park his smelly butt in the US.

sigh...there goes the neighborhood...

Dateline Patna

MOSQUE CAPTURED BY YADAVAS

By Syed Mohammad Iqbal

Bihar, where the ruling Rashtriya Janta Dal (RJD) leaders swear by their concern for the cause of minorities, increasing cases of encroachment upon their religious places have caused resentment among a good number of Muslims in and around the state capital. The latest update has come from the Danapur subdivision, where the chief minister Rabri Devi`s caste men Yadavas have forcibly turned a mosque at Maner some 25 km from capital Patna into a cowshed after driving away the mosque`s caretaker .

The mosque, one of the oldest in Maner is being used by Yadvas as a cowshed, making it difficult for the Muslims to offer prayers there. When the caretaker of the mosque protested the nefarious move, he was threatened with riots, says an aggrieved Muslim of Maner. It is also alleged that the place is also being used for gambling and prostitution. The graveyard at Maner also seems to be in the process of being encroached upon.

A statue of late Congress MP Ramnagina Singh, has been installed on the graveyard land, which has aroused Muslim suspicions about the motive of late Singh`s followers. Yet another plot of graveyard land, situated on the outskirts of Maner has also been encroached, with a cinema hall having come up on the land nearby, to the anguish of Muslims.Though the matter is now in the court, the state government`s silence from the very beginning has disheartened liberal circles and the minorities of the Yadav-dominated Danapur subdivision.

Incidentally, a similar case of encroachment upon Qabristan land was reported from Fatuha, 30 km east of Patna a few years ago. Several missives were sent to the district administration seeking its intervention to free the graveyard but to no avail. Here it may be recalled that the RJD supremo Mr Laloo Prasad Yadav and Nitish Kumar, now Union Railway Minister, had together sat on dharna at Fatuha demanding immediate removal of encroachments from the graveyard. However, the same Mr Yadav maintained stoic silence on the issue when he had become the chief minister of the state later.

Mr Irshad Ahmad, general secretary of the Bihar Pradesh Muslim Conference at that time held the state government in general and Laloo Prasad Yadav in particular responsible for the wanton acts of yadavas during the last few years. He regretted that despite complaints lodged with the police station concerned, no step was taken to free the religious shrines. Mr Ahmad disclosed that the Bihar Pradesh Muslim Conference had drawn the attention of Mr Yadav during Iftar party in 1996 towards the forcible occupation of mosques, particularly in Maner, Fatuha and Patna city areas of the district.

However, he kept mum on the issue. Interestingly

Mr Ahmad alleged that Muslim ministers of RJD

government too preferred to remain silent. Another Muslim leader, who did not wish to be quoted, rued that while the RJD government talks about Muslim welfare and their leaders love to shout the slogan of M-Y combination, the Yadavas had launched a campaign of sorts to defile the holy places of Muslims. Many of the 40 mosques in the urban and semi-urban areas of the district are silent witnesses to encroachments by Yadavas and were being used as cowsheds.

Muslim leaders threatened to hold public shows throughout the state of video films on the mosques if the RJD government continues to ignore their religious feelings. Senior Janta Dal leader and former minister of state for finance, Faiyaz Bhagalpuri, meanwhile, has threatened to launch an agitation if the encroachments were not removed from the Muslims holy places soon. Mr Jawed a dynamic worker of RJD said that even for Mukhia election which was held recently only Muslims cast their votes to Yadavas but Yadavas never cast their votes to any Muslim candidate. They openly used to say that we never cast our vote to any community. q

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Removal of minorities names from voters list

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

By Zafar Agha

Behold! Another conspiracy is taking shape against Muslims of Uttar Pradesh. News have been received during the last few days from Rampur and many other districts that names of Muslim families are missing in new voter’s lists for the forthcoming elections.

This is a very serious matter because this is not simply a matter of chance but a well planned conspiracy being hatched by BJP and R.SS. Now their tentacles have spread so far that Indian bureaucracy is under their control. Even otherwise news had been making round from 1970’s onwards about Election Commission that election machinery was under their control. Now, most of the staff and managers on election duty are either members of the Sangh group or its sympathizers. In addition to this, members of the Sangh group have penetrated almost every branch of administration, including census department which collects all statistics about the country’s population. Their attitude is such that they visited all other houses of my locality but did not take the trouble of visiting my residence. Obviously they knew that a Muslim family lives there and when that family will not be mentioned in the census list, it is not at all difficult to remove its name from the voters list.

The news regarding Muslim families names missing from voters lists is making rounds in many districts and states for quite some time but these days such news are mostly coming from UP. Obviously, there are two objectives of this strategy. Firstly, the ratio of Muslims population should be reduced in the overall population of the country, and secondly, the names of as many Muslims should be removed from the voters lists as possible.

The most important problem for Sangh group is how to deprive Muslim voters from their voting rights. This is a very serious problem because a common man in this country may very well enjoy many constitutional rights but, in ordinary life he has one important right i.e the right to vote or to elect or remove a government. Now this RSS group, which includes BJP also, wants to deprive Muslims of their voting rights by hatching different types of conspiracies. The names of Muslims occupy the top place in the list containing the names and communities or classes who are prepared to be deprived of their voting rights. Dalits and other backward classes are also targeted for being deprived of their voting rights but for the present Muslims are their main targets for being deprived of voting rights for the UP elections.

The main reason for all this at present is that elections in UP are to be held shortly. The Sangh group feels that the earth is slipping from under the feet of BJP in UP, the most important state of India. The Sangh group, which includes BJP also, is extremely worried lest it may lose UP elections scheduled to be held early next year. And if BJP loses UP, the central government at Delhi will become shaky. This thought is giving them sleepless nights and they are trying their best to somehow or the other make BJP win the UP elections. For this they are prepared to employ any means. The first step in this plot is to somehow eliminate as many names of Muslims, ‘Dalits’ and other backward classes from the voter’s list as possible so that the numbers of these voters, who are generally opposed to BJP etc, may be reduced to the maximum possible extent. In other words, the Sangh in collaboration with BJP have planned to somehow hijack Indian democracy so that the Indian masses may not be able to remove BJP from power through elections.

It should be borne in mind that removal of BJP’s likely opponents from voters list is the first step of their conspiracy. The second stage of this conspiracy is to manipulate Hindu-Muslim tension and possibly organize riots in the states where elections are to be held. For example, preparations are in full swing to create Hindu-Muslim tension in the name of Ram temple. On the occasion of these elections, on one side their strategy is to rouse Hindu emotions in the name of Ram temple and to attract them towards BJP and on the other side, to spread rumour and create tension in and around Muslim localities just a couple of days before election day so that heavy police patrolling could be effected so that many people, specially Muslim bodies, may not dare to step out of their houses for casting absence, BJP supporters may cast their votes in favour of BJP candidates.

Another conspiracy has already been hatched to conceal this conspiracy in a different way. The government of UP has recently announced that Muslim backward classes will also be given reservation out of the quota of other backward classes. Firstly, this is not something new and secondly, a government which wants to destroy mosques and close down ‘madrasas’ on some pretext or the other, how once an expect of such a government to give reservation to Muslims? As a matter of fact the objective of this announcement is that there should at least be some logical reasons or bases to verify the bogus votes to be cast on behalf of Muslims and other backward classes who may not step out of their houses on account of the fear because of heavy police patrolling.

Another important objective of this new reservation policy is that the impression should be propagated through false opinion polls that normally are held and shown on the eve of elections that this time such and such percentage of backward classes of Muslims and other communities are inclined to cast their votes in favour of BJP which is because of the new reservation policy. Subsequently, when the elections are over, it should be shown in bold letters on TV and newspapers that in these elections such-and-such percent of Muslim votes were cast in favour of BJP and in this way BJP got the majority.

But there is no cause for worry. Muslims and other backward classes should carry on agitations along with their leaders for inclusion of their names in the voters list. Fort this purpose they should ‘gherao’ offices of election commissions. Again, the difficulties created on the eve of elections by creating tensions and police’ bandobast’ should be ignored and people should came out fearlessly, including womenfolk, and cast their votes against BJP.

Backward sections of India should remember that they have only one strong weapon at their disposal i.e the weapon of vote which the BJP and Sangh group is trying to grab from them. Educated people should educate the people about these sinister conspiracies. Teachers of institutions like Aligarh Muslim University can play an important role in this movement. These people should remember that if this weapon of vote is taken away from them, they will be destined to lead a life of slavery. (Translated from Urdu) q

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scout,

{{why do Indians get so angry and hostile when faced with self criticism?}}

now, now, please dont use sweeping generalisations. I`m just about as Pakistani as you are Mother Theresa:)

Suleman Bakery-accused Tyagi gets bail

By MH Lakdawala

Mumbai: The granting of bail to former police commissioner RD Tyagi proves beyond doubt that state government is not serious in implementing Srikrishna commission report or punishing those indicted by the Commission.

The ex-police commissioner was granted bail mainly on the grounds of parity: since his co-accused are out on bail, why not he? Since those who went inside Suleman Bakery and actually fired spent not an hour in custody, while the man who claims to have waited outside had to surrender? The defense argued. But the state did not put its case strongly to counter this argument.

The simple reason is that the Maharashtra state did not want them inside either. In the normal course of things, Tyagi,and 16 co accused, should have been arrested as soon as the FIR was filed u/sec 302 and 34 IPC on May 25.

How serious was the State government and STF can be gauged by the fact that they did not appealed against the bail granted to Tyagi’s 16 co-accused. During the hearing of Tyagi`s bail plea Judge Thipsay repeatedly asked the special public prosecutor (PP) whether the State had appealed against the bail granted to his co-accused.

In his order too, he pointed out that the granting of bail to them did not aggrieve the state. How could it be aggrieved when it had not opposed even their anticipatory bail application? The order makes it obvious. The order granting them anticipatory bail clearly states that the investigating agency, i.e., the Special Task Force (STF), did not even press for custodial interrogation. ``The very fact that the investigating agency did not find it necessary to take them into custody indicates that there is no apprehension of the applicants tampering with the evidence or absconding...``

In his brilliant arguments opposing Tyagi`s anticipatory bail application in the high court, Special Public Prosecutor P R Vakil had declared that thanks to the cover-up by Tyagi and his department, there was no evidence left to tamper with.

He had pointed out the complete lack of evidence to support the version put forward by Tyagi and his Special Operations Squad (SOS). He had even displayed the kind of arms with which the alleged terrorists were supposed to have escaped while surrounded by the STF, to show how absurd this claim was.

All these arguments applied equally to Tyagi`s co-accused. There was no question then of greater responsibility or lesser. Why then weren`t the same arguments made in the anticipatory bail application of the co-accused? Because Home Minister Chagan Bhujbal and Police Commissioner M N Singh didn`t want them to lose their jobs and then be left with a sullen police force to deal with?

Vakil had concluded his high court arguments by pointing out that there was enough evidence to necessitate custodial interrogation of Tyagi. He had to be asked what happened to the victims` clothes and the bullets embedded in two bodies. Normally, murder accused are interrogated in custody. If this accused is dealt with separately, it would be an injustice, he had said.

Despite this, the STF chose, just a few hours before Justice A B Palkar was to pass his order, to finish off Tyagi`s interrogation in their office.

Special Public Prosecutor Vakil has been an unenviable task. How can any PP forcefully oppose anticipatory bail or bail when his client doesn`t want the accused in custody? If Vakil fought with all his might against Tyagi`s anticipatory bail application, it was because public pressure forced the government to let him do so.

Even while hearing in magistrate`s court. STF fails to produce Tyagi. Reprimanded by magistrate for making no written application. Tyagi`s counsel insists that shifting Tyagi either to Arthur Road Jail or J J Hospital will be life-threatening. Though there`s no medical report saying this, PP keeps silent. He does not ask court to order medical examination of Tyagi by panel of government doctors.

Thus apparently state government projects itself as implementing the Srikrishna Commission report and committed to bring to justice those indicted by the Commission. But its deeds convey the fact that it is only interested in scoring political points even at the cost of Justice. q

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Dateline Jhansi:

Hate-mongers active

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Sang Parivar spreading hate against uslims in



Colleges!!

I`m a student of Bundelkhand Institute of Engg. & Technology, Jhansi. Recently an untoward event took place on our campus.

It is a matter of grave concern that Sangh Parivar has started arousing anti Muslim feelings in the ordinary citizens more vigorously in the wake of attack on US. They are trying to communalise the atmosphere.

In this regard now RSS personnel have started mobilsing masses by going to different institutions. And our college is one of them. I was shocked to know that on 18 September RSS men came with some teachers in one hostel (Vrindavan) of college and asked all the students to gather in the common room. There they blatantly incited the students by educating them about the ``evils`` of Muslims and false facts about Babri Masjid etc. and urged them to join the RSS. They even said that any Masjid or religious place of Muslims is a symbol of ``Ghulami`` (slavery) and they all will remain ghulam until they erase these symbols.

However, some students resisted their ideas but clearly such students were in minority and their views were overwhelmingly refuted by the majority of the people present. This clearly shows how the Sangh Parivar is growing rapidly and enlarging its working area and how they are inciting even those peoples who normally don`t want to indulge in any anti-Muslim activity. But at this moment what concerns me most is: how did our director allow RSS to hold a meeting in the institute?

(Name and address of correspondent provided)

BIET, Jhansi. q

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Mazar desecrated in Jahazpur



Bhilwara: In yet another incident of religious sacrilege in Rajasthan, a mazar (mausoleum) has been desecrated at Jahazpur by unidentified miscreants.

Sudhanshu, the collector, who visited the mazar of Adamali Shah, said that additional police force had been deployed there. The mazar was repaired, he added.

In the last two months, there have been as many as six incidents of sacrilege in the State, including the demolition of an old Qalandari mosque situated at Swai Bhoj temple complex at Asind and desecration of another mosque and burning of a holy book at Pander.

This was one of the four mazars in the town at an old fort, at a height of 450 feet, where two constables had been maintaining round-the-clock vigil since August 15, the collector said. He did not explain as to how the desecration happened despite the vigil.

re romair 26

The fundamental flaw with your analysis is that Indian Muslims are 13 %, at most, of India while Bengalis were 54 %, at least, of Pakistan. The yardsticks you use are intellectually not kosher.

vat? hamid? u abbuce nehru? Pisful! i lowe sadam

Shahid Mian:

It seems Hindu hocus pocus is being bought and splashed around in the west also. The following is from a Canadian paper. Care to comment on the veracity of the following observations?

``The Lies of Oprah

FrontPageMagazine.com | October 16, 2001

ON FRIDAY, October 5, Oprah devoted her program to ``Islam 101,`` which, I think, was supposed to be a crash course on the Islamic religion.

I’m still confused.

One of the guests, Dr. Maleeha Lodhi, the Pakistani ambassador to the U.S., explained that, ``There is nothing in Islam that does not accord women equal rights and respect. Islam encourages women to participate and be a productive member of society.``

Another guest, Professor Akbar Ahmed, who served as the Pakistani Ambassador to Great Britain and is now the Chair of Islamic Studies at American University in Washington D.C., stated that there was a ``commonality`` between Islam, Christianity and Judaism in the ``emphasis`` on ``family life.``

Oprah didn’t challenge these statements.

After the program, I was very traumatized. I tried to synthesize Oprah’s show with everything I have read in the Qur’an – and in other Islamic texts. I failed miserably.

I’m very confused.

In the Qur’an, Surah 2:28 tells us that men are superior to women. Surah 4:34 commands a man to beat his wife as soon as she shows any sign of disobedience to his orders. The verse reads, ``As for these women, fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart and scourge them.``

The Prophet Mohammed was kind enough to leave no misunderstanding on this matter in the hadiths, which are his Sunnah (sayings and doings) as recorded meticulously by his companions. They are considered to have the same authenticity as the Qur’an by the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world.

In his hadith in volume 3:826 of the Sahih Al-Bukhari, Imam Al-Bukhari quotes Mohammed’s order to the husband regarding his wife: ``Hang up your scourge where your wife can see it.``

The Prophet, however, was loving enough to command that, according to Imam Kitab al-Nikah’s hadith No. 1850 in The Book of Marriage, ``you shall not slap her on the face, nor revile her, nor desert her except within the house.``

It’s a good thing that some contemporary Islamic teachers are a little more liberal on this issue. Abdul-latif Mushtahiri is a prime example. In his book, You Ask and Islam Answers, he instructs on page 94 that, while he is all up for a good wife-beating, it is a good idea to stop short of any broken bones or shedding of blood. He patiently explains that, ``Many a wife belongs to this querulous type and requires this sort of punishment to bring her to her senses!``

I’m confused.

Is this the ``family life`` that Professor Ahmed was referring to on Oprah in regard to the ``commonality`` between Islam, Christianity and Judaism? Or was he referring, perhaps, to Prophet Mohammed’s instruction to husbands, quoted in Imam Kitab al-Nikah’s hadith No. 1850, that, ``It is that you shall give her food when you have taken your food, that you shall clothe her when you have clothed yourself``?

I wonder what comment Oprah’s guests would make about Al-Bukhari’s hadith, in volume 3:826 of the Sahih Al-Bukhari, that quotes Mohammed saying that women are deficient in mind and religion? Is this why Surah 4:3 allows a man to marry up to four wives at the same time, so that the other three can make up for the deficiency of the individual retarded one?

When the Pakistani ambassador told Oprah that ``Islam encourages women to participate and be a productive member of society,`` was she referring to Surah 2:223, which states that a wife is a sex object for her husband? It’s quite a poetic verse: ``Your wives are as a tilth unto you, so approach your tilth when or how ye will.``

Aside from having more than nine wives, the Prophet Mohammed married six-year old Aisha and consummated his marriage with her when she was nine. Al-Bukhari’s Sahih Al-Bukhari is filled with references (i.e. vols. 5:236, 7:64, 7:65, 7:88) to this inspiring ingredient of Islam that all Muslims must accept.

I’m very confused.

Is Oprah planning to have an ``Islam 202``? Is that when she will ask her guests about six-year old Aisha? Or is it when she will recommend the book Rage Against the Veil – the heartbreaking account about how Islam mutilates the lives and souls of women and children? The book tells the story of Homa Darabi, an Iranian female doctor and human rights activist, who committed suicide, by self-immolation, in a crowded public square in Tehran in 1994 to bring awareness to the nightmarish realities that, for some reason, were forced into invisibility on Oprah’s ``Islam 101.``

RE: scout

``why do Indians get so angry and hostile when faced with self criticism?``

This has nothing to do with self-criticism. Our newspapers are the most scathing critics of the GoI, as are most Indians.

The issue here is lies (shammi just exposed one)and one-sided spin by the author.

Perhaps Altaf Hussein should write articles on Pakistan here; we can then judge how tolerant Pakistanis are of ``self-criticism.``

Bad news for apologists of Jihad and Islamic terrorism. Even Europeans don`t want to tolerate it anymore...and they are far more tolerant than Americans.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/20/international/europe/20FRAN.html

Do we need further proof that the writer is a deluded Paki.

My the author lives in India.

He reeks of Pakistani ideology through and through.

What bullshit is this?

If the Hindus have desecrated every Muslim monument in India then the Muslim rulers have destroyed every Hindu temple and the Muslims have nothing but cruel rulers.

Two can play this game.

If the author wants to paint the whole society with a broad brush then why he does he find wrong what he accuses the Hindus of doing.

If you want to criticize India be objective.

Eklavya, can you be a sport and list the valid points the author makes. Please wean all the Muslims being India`s rulers and look how they are suffering kind of crap from the article.

I can`t get through the article without my blood boiling over.

I would appreciate a summary. Thanks.

Which alternate reality does the author live in ?

Perhaps this is proof of the many-worlds theories

of quantum mechanics ? Or the many universes of

superstring theory ?

-Arun Gupta

Shahid Mian:

It seems Hindu hocus pocus is being bought and splashed around in the west also. The following is from a Canadian paper. Care to comment on the veracity of the following observations?

``The Lies of Oprah

FrontPageMagazine.com | October 16, 2001

ON FRIDAY, October 5, Oprah devoted her program to ``Islam 101,`` which, I think, was supposed to be a crash course on the Islamic religion.

I’m still confused.

One of the guests, Dr. Maleeha Lodhi, the Pakistani ambassador to the U.S., explained that, ``There is nothing in Islam that does not accord women equal rights and respect. Islam encourages women to participate and be a productive member of society.``

Another guest, Professor Akbar Ahmed, who served as the Pakistani Ambassador to Great Britain and is now the Chair of Islamic Studies at American University in Washington D.C., stated that there was a ``commonality`` between Islam, Christianity and Judaism in the ``emphasis`` on ``family life.``

Oprah didn’t challenge these statements.

After the program, I was very traumatized. I tried to synthesize Oprah’s show with everything I have read in the Qur’an – and in other Islamic texts. I failed miserably.

I’m very confused.

In the Qur’an, Surah 2:28 tells us that men are superior to women. Surah 4:34 commands a man to beat his wife as soon as she shows any sign of disobedience to his orders. The verse reads, ``As for these women, fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart and scourge them.``

The Prophet Mohammed was kind enough to leave no misunderstanding on this matter in the hadiths, which are his Sunnah (sayings and doings) as recorded meticulously by his companions. They are considered to have the same authenticity as the Qur’an by the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world.

In his hadith in volume 3:826 of the Sahih Al-Bukhari, Imam Al-Bukhari quotes Mohammed’s order to the husband regarding his wife: ``Hang up your scourge where your wife can see it.``

The Prophet, however, was loving enough to command that, according to Imam Kitab al-Nikah’s hadith No. 1850 in The Book of Marriage, ``you shall not slap her on the face, nor revile her, nor desert her except within the house.``

It’s a good thing that some contemporary Islamic teachers are a little more liberal on this issue. Abdul-latif Mushtahiri is a prime example. In his book, You Ask and Islam Answers, he instructs on page 94 that, while he is all up for a good wife-beating, it is a good idea to stop short of any broken bones or shedding of blood. He patiently explains that, ``Many a wife belongs to this querulous type and requires this sort of punishment to bring her to her senses!``

I’m confused.

Is this the ``family life`` that Professor Ahmed was referring to on Oprah in regard to the ``commonality`` between Islam, Christianity and Judaism? Or was he referring, perhaps, to Prophet Mohammed’s instruction to husbands, quoted in Imam Kitab al-Nikah’s hadith No. 1850, that, ``It is that you shall give her food when you have taken your food, that you shall clothe her when you have clothed yourself``?

I wonder what comment Oprah’s guests would make about Al-Bukhari’s hadith, in volume 3:826 of the Sahih Al-Bukhari, that quotes Mohammed saying that women are deficient in mind and religion? Is this why Surah 4:3 allows a man to marry up to four wives at the same time, so that the other three can make up for the deficiency of the individual retarded one?

When the Pakistani ambassador told Oprah that ``Islam encourages women to participate and be a productive member of society,`` was she referring to Surah 2:223, which states that a wife is a sex object for her husband? It’s quite a poetic verse: ``Your wives are as a tilth unto you, so approach your tilth when or how ye will.``

Aside from having more than nine wives, the Prophet Mohammed married six-year old Aisha and consummated his marriage with her when she was nine. Al-Bukhari’s Sahih Al-Bukhari is filled with references (i.e. vols. 5:236, 7:64, 7:65, 7:88) to this inspiring ingredient of Islam that all Muslims must accept.

I’m very confused.

Is Oprah planning to have an ``Islam 202``? Is that when she will ask her guests about six-year old Aisha? Or is it when she will recommend the book Rage Against the Veil – the heartbreaking account about how Islam mutilates the lives and souls of women and children? The book tells the story of Homa Darabi, an Iranian female doctor and human rights activist, who committed suicide, by self-immolation, in a crowded public square in Tehran in 1994 to bring awareness to the nightmarish realities that, for some reason, were forced into invisibility on Oprah’s ``Islam 101.``

Re: studebaker`s post on Zakaria brothers

Much of the Jehadi Muslim world does not like Fareed Zakaria. Pakistanis probably don`t like him much either. He is an Indian Muslim who does not come from the Farzana Versey school of thought.

Ironic isnt it that when Sigalph says something good about Pakistan (or myself or Aisha Sarwari), Rsaxena calls him an Islamic bigot and fundamentalist, but when Sigalph says something good about India, Sigalph becomes the Gospel of truth!

Hypocrisy and Double standards continue.

-YLH

PS all I am trying to say is that just like you have people like Shahid Akhtar Makhfi who tend to overdo the faults with India, there are people in Pakistan who overdo the faults of Pakistan. But this is a necessary process of growth.

I can pick up sentences from this article and I can then back them by amnesty International reports but I would rather not... no country is perfect, but we waste a lot of energy pointing fingers at each other...

So I appeal to the bigots from across the border ie rsaxena, gowardhan, mahesh G and especially the Bigot in Chief Jay thackerey to give up their diatribes against Pakistan and concentrate on your own country.

Eklavya

`I was frothing and foaming more about the articles written by some Pakistanis who never see any good in Indian secularism or in Indian democracy.`

Maybe if you could check the Pakistan-Obsessed Indian writers ,who out-number the India-Obsessed Pakistani writers by 100 to 1 and have nothing better than to Bash Pakistan, the Pakistani writers would start looking for something good.

Why the double standards?

I hope chowkwallahs will join me in condemning Mannyd`s post as the epitome of Hindu fanaticism and Bigotry. I can at this point disect the Vedas and indeed any other holy book that Hindus might have to show you why Islam is atleast 5000 times more egalitarian, but I`d rather not. I have no desire to indulge in exchanges of Bigotry. The truth is out there for everyone to see. So Oprah Winfrey is a liar. Maybe John L Esposito is a liar as well... even Bernard Lewis. The only epitome of truth are sinyasis from Hind...

sigalph235: ``The fundamental flaw with your analysis is that Indian Muslims are 13 %, at most, of India while Bengalis were 54 %, at least, of Pakistan. The yardsticks you use are intellectually not kosher.``

One should not become jealous or defensive if someone highlights the fact that other communities in the world have been or are being marginalized in the same manner (or more intense manner) as the East Pakistanis were in 1971. East Pakistanis do not have a monopoly on being the only community that was marginalized. As I stated earlier, in third world uneducated societies, every powerful group attempts to marginalize other weaker groups. Even within Bangladesh, this is going on, right now. As well as within India and Pakistan.

The only yardstick I used was, ``similarly extremely low percentages of Indian Muslims in Indian govt. positions`` in proportion to the total population. I did not mention any exact figures, but was speaking in terms of percentages. If you think that % wise Indian Muslims are better represented in the Indian govt. then East Pakistanis were in Pakistan, then please enlighten me (I could be wrong). Becuase I have never been to India, and am only basing my information on what I have read in Indian Muslim newspapers.

Mine was an attempt to highlight the marginalizations of the East Pakistani at a time of economic boom for Pakistan, and to highlight the marginilazitions of Indian Muslims at a time of economic progress for India. If your only aim is to accuse me of using intellectually non-kosher yardsticks than I am afraid nothing one says can please you. It`s a, ``damned if you do, damned if you don`t`` situation. Those, like me, who point out the mistakes Pakistan made with respect to East Pakistan (in no way to please you or any other Bangladeshis, but to just attempt to highlight Pakistani mistakes in an honest manner) are not intellectually kosher, if they highlight that other countries are now making similar mistakes with respect to other groups. While those who state that Pakistan did no wrong in East Pakistan are considered colonists.

I still stick to the fact that Indian Muslims are getting as marginilized, if not more, in the Indian society as East Pakistanis were in Pakistan. The fact that they are only 13% of the population as compared to 54% for East Pakistanis, actually adds to the marginalizations because this puts them in a weaker position than the East Pakistanis, i.e. it is much easier to dominate a 13% weak group than a 54% weak group. Also religious discriminations are far more intense than ethnic discriminations.

The second point I was trying to make is that since Muslims are spread out all over India, and not localized in one geographical area like East Pakistan, their discontentment will have a far higher impact throughout India.

The movie in which the Indian Muslim character facing baddie Hindu cops in Bombay during the riots is played by Hrithik Roshan was `Fiza`.
A review:
http://www.islamonline.net/English/ArtCulture/2001/09/article2.shtml

btw, this movie was banned in Malaysia, the reason given was that some Malaysian Muslims there were inciting violence against Malaysian Hindus on the basis of the picturisation of Hindus during the communal violence in the movie.

And btw, the Srikrishna report has been raised in Parliament several times, and has been an election issue apart from being given a lot of coverage in the press.

A patent ignorance of all this displayed by the author is analogous to a person writing about Indo-Pak talks and choosing to refer to the events of `71 while igoring the recent Agra Summit. This leads me to believe that the author cannot have been in India for very long(if he is in India at all), he seems to have recently migrated(if at all) to India from a country which doenot report Indian news in any authentic way and bans Indian movies. Now which country can that be? Let me think.

shankar bhai #36, ``now, now, please dont use sweeping generalisations. I`m just about as Pakistani as you are Mother Theresa:)``

I can`t help it. Don`t tell me you don`t read the interacts posted by most of the Indian interactors here?

Seriously, if I even criticize the color of grass in India, sadna sweets will pull out an article on how the grass is greener in India, and twenty internet references to try and prove it.

Saxena #44,

Yeah, I agree the author is one sided, but he has some valid points to make. One being that India is less secular in nature than it pretends to be.

You cannot deny that fact. Now don`t retaliate by bringing up a omparison of Pakistan with India to make yourself feel good.

Just think about it as an Indian concerned with India only.

sadna #57,

so now you`re turning to Bollywood trash to prove how secular India is?

pathetic

Those who perform the noble act of demolishing mandir or masjids etc are simply following the advice of the some oft-quoted punjabi pir.

Mandir dhaa dey masjid dhaa dey...etc

pur kissay daa dil naa dhanveen etc (whatever)

Such acts can only be carried out only by non-hindus,non-muslims or secularists.It is generally claimed by such that demolishing places of worship is ok because it has never broken any hearts anywhere.Laying claim to be a moderate & liberal has its privileges.It allows them to shift with the tide and always be at the right place at the right time.It is to such kind that the spoils of war go and it is they who are seem to be having fun-----but do they?

Drunkards,debauchers,gamblers,hookers,homos,porno-promoters and other insurers of throbbing healthy hearts know that such demolitions do not break any hearts.

There is another oft-quoted saying by some Panjabi:``Ghairat aannee jaanee shai vay,bunday nooN dhit honaa chaaeeda aye``....A very western concept indeed.

Re: ylh

``Ironic isnt it that when Sigalph says something good about Pakistan (or myself or Aisha Sarwari), Rsaxena calls him an Islamic bigot and fundamentalist, but when Sigalph says something good about India, Sigalph becomes the Gospel of truth!``

tsk tsk tsk...lying again, I see. Would you point out where I have called Sigalph that? Heck, let`s ask Sigalph if I have called him that.

He and I have disagreed on many things but never been disagreeable with each other. Mainly because he doesn`t lie like you do.

Re: ylh

``I hope chowkwallahs will join me in condemning Mannyd`s post as the epitome of Hindu fanaticism and Bigotry.``

Uhhh, genius, Mannyd did not write that. It is from that Canadian news magazine (FrontPage Magazine) and is not written by an Indian or a Hindu.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/columnists/glazov/glazov10-17-01.htm

Will Chowkwallahs join me in condemning ylh`s post as the epitome of idiocy?

Dear Shahid,

Welcome to Chowk, and I hope you would participate fully with the interacts that your article will have generated. I share your anguish about the deteriorating tolerance levels in India, as undoubtaedly other chowkies do. I find myself equally disgusted at the shameless saffron politics going on.

But in your post you make some staggering generalizations, and I must say, display a litle paranoia. The picture of hindu zealots overrunning the nation is hard to digest; it certainly doesnt gel with what I nkow about India and Inidans. I must conclude that you are one of the diminishing breed of what some chowkies have in the past called ``dispossessed Moghuls``. Thankfully most of this breed migrated to Pakistan a while ago, but some continue to remain in India, and continue to view the world through the ``lost glory`` glasses.

The question I want to ask is - where is your sense of balance? For a student of history, really, you show very little perspective. Its the typical victim complex, unable to assume responsibility for ones own situation. Of course I am not implying that the minorities` problems are all of their own making. We definitely have a problem on our hands, as you will certainly agree. Its a multi-faceted problem, and playing the victim and the siege mentality will not go very far in addressing it, IMO.

Its very important that thinking Indians constantly raise the issue, as you have done in your post, but your effort has been undermined by your lack of balance. Its a shame, cos what could have been a long overdue opportunity for stock-taking by Indians, will now stray into point-scoring. This is Chowk you know - it takes only a single opinionated piece of cr@p to throw the whole thing off, and I can see several in your piece.

Regards, xxabbu

PS i didnt know abt the green tile thing. What colour tiles do Pakistanis use? I have green tiles in my bathroon, and the pot is also green. Is that real bad?

Nice article.

A word on polygamy: Most muslims find it difficult

to hold on to one wife. Some can not afford even

one wife. Some relish more than one wife. The

religion is blamed for polygamy. This is unfair

criticism of Islam. Allah (s.w.t) allows muslims

to have more than one wife upto the maximum of

four, PROVIDED HE TREATS THEM EQUALLY. Is the

equal treatment possible? Of course not. This

is Allah`s way of asking muslims to be contented

with one wife, just as drinking alcohol was

prohibited by Allah (s.w.t). Muslims were asked

not to pray while they were intoxicated. This

led to the prohibition of drinking alcohol, since

muslims were losing prayers.

Osama bin Laden Toilets, Green Latrines, and some peoples Islam

http://www.dawn.com/2001/10/21/letted.htm

Is this `civilization`?

The other day a a satellite TV channel reported to its viewers that a product is having a record sale in the US. It is a toilet paper which has pictures of Osama bin Laden printed on it. A sample was shown to the camera, and so was the process of its production.

President Bush and his friends are calling the tragic WTC incident an attack on `civilization`. True. But I want to know if it is this `civilization` that was attacked ?

Drawing human figures is not encouraged in Islam, let alone worshipping, respecting, hating or desecrating them. So it might not matter, whether you draw a picture or not, and to whatsoever use you put it. But, how would the `civilized` world feel and react if the pictures of Mr Bush, Mr Blair, Mr Sharon and others were treated in the same way?

The mass-production and the popularity of this item shows the mind-set of the people at large.

One wonders if such a `civilization` is worth promoting.

LAKIAREE

Jamshoro

`btw, this movie was banned in Malaysia`

How is this relevant to Pakistan?? Because I remember last year walking into PACE Mall Lahore, The Point Mall Karachi, and half a dozen other locations from the remote towns like Jauharabad and Khushab and being subjected to the horrible music of that movie `Fiza`.

Note to the Author:

As I have previously mentioned, the article makes the important point of highlighting Muslim concerns/insecurities in India today. Despite certain factual mistakes, which do not detract from the overall thrust of the article, it is important that Hindus do not subject Muslims in India to the tyranny of the majority -- something that even democracies can mistakenly commit. An example was the Shah Bano case which was elevated all the way to the Supreme Court in the `80s. The Supreme Court ruling -- i.e. to grant alimony to Shah Bano from her ex-husband in contravention of the Muslim Personal Law, could easily have been construed by the Muslims (especially the orthodoxy) as an assault on Muslim rights. The merits of the case notwithstanding, Shah Bano`s case and the Supreme Court judgment certainly had the potential to galvanize the orthodoxy. Although, I was originally opposed to Rajiv Gandhi`s decision to amend the law to overturn the Supreme Court judgment, I now believe that Rajiv did the right thing. It was certainly not an egalitarian decision, and was probably politically expeditious -- but, it was probably still right because Rajiv recognized that the impetus for change in the Muslim Personal Law should come from the Muslims themselves, and not from the outside, even if it has some short-term costs (e.g. denial of Muslim women`s rights, etc.).

I do hope that personal laws (Hindus, Muslims, Christian, etc.) are all put aside one day (as the Directive Principles of State Policy in the Constitution make it clear) -- and when that happens, citizens will be measured by the content of their character, and not by any religious affiliation. By the same token, the author should take note that it is ironical that a socio-political agenda that calls for denial of any rights to Shah Bano, is also simultaneously responsible for impeding the attainment of the full potential of the Muslim community in India. The balancing of these competing claims requires exceptionally strong leadership -- which unfortunately was more committed to creating Pakistan in the `40s, than addressing these basic issues. The Partition (accompanied by the flight of the N. Indian Muslim middle class to Pakistan) has left the community leaderless, a situation from which recovery has been very slow and is only now beginning to improve.

Re: Romair

``...a few factors in India that make the situation (of sizeable Muslims) more dangerous...``

There are a few factors that also make the situation far more stable, enriching and moderate:

a) Indians have a choice over spirituality and matters of faith -- helps to keep the lunatics in any religion from straying too far off the middle path (you are not a leader if there are no followers principle). Thus, no Talebans or Tikka Khans or Khmer Rouge. While at the atomic (individual) level, we may have fanatics who would embarras the Taleban, we will NEVER have the Taleban (or their Hindu equivalent) in positions of power. The system is stacked against the religious fringe elements

b) Intermingling and exchange of ideas is a source of strength -- not weakness -- from architecture, music to diplomacy. Exposure to our rich cultural heritage from all all faiths is a source of joy, not anguish. No where else in the world will you have the largest Bahai temple, the exiled spiritual head of the Lamaist Buddhist religion, the most stunning Islamic architecture anywhere, the oldest Christian Church east of the Suez, the most important temple for the Sikhs, the world`s largest Parsee community, a Christian community that outranks most European countries in size, and Hindu philosophy and architecture reflecting all its variety, co-located in the same country. While we certainly have our warts, we also have a tremendous inspirational heritage to make every Indian proud. We, unlike you, see the glass as being half-full, not half-empty.

c) We have more Muslims than the entire Arab world and Iran put together -- and we accord them greater political representation than the Arabs/Iran. I had a Palestinian (from Kuwait) room-mate in undergraduate college in India who lamented -- `we Arabs speak the language, follow the same religion, yet could not forge one nation, while you speak 19 major languages, have different religions, and yet are a united, democratic nation`. I had never, ever thought of India in those terms -- but when I heard him say that, it took a while for the implications to settle in. I felt PROUD. We still have a long way to go, but we will get there.

YLH

`` I can at this point disect the Vedas and indeed any other holy book that Hindus might have to show you why Islam is atleast 5000 times more egalitarian, but I`d rather not.`` The above is a quote from YLH post and I suspect he continues, with out the key strokes, `` what is the good of comparing the books, what is important is the practice of the religion, it is in that context I like to point out what pakistan has achieved. It is a country created exclusively on the basis of religion and what the institutions of pakistan have achieved is exemplary for the rest of the islamic world. I have to emphasise, there are individual flaws every where, but the legal and institutional frame work of pakistan that you have to focus on``

As a continuation of the same line of thought, YLH asserts, with the key strokes contribute by me, `` The infidel british never recognised the islamic treatment of women, so we in pakistan have legally sanctioned honour killing. As a glowing tribute to the equality in a country created for islam, a woman was killed in broad daylight in the office of a famous human rights activist, and the killer was not charged with any crime, simply because that will be illegal in pakistan. A couple of honour killing is the routine life task of any respectable pakistani, and that should be the proof enough of the essential equality of a religion that forms the foundation of pakistan. One should not forget that the supreme law is sheria in pakistan, and if the honor killing legality were at variance with sheria, sheria court would have asked for a review, like the case of riba, interset rates, in pakistan. Hounor killing laws upheld by the lahore high court, and not quashed by the supreme sheria courts are the testimony to the practical aspects of the equality in pakistan, and is in accord with the book, as interpreted and upheld by the scholars and judges of the pak sheria court.``

regards and best wishes to YLh with the typical ylh ending

jay pakistan,

jay sheria courts

jay jay

Re: Mannyd #42

Mannyd, you have posted the words of Jaime Glasov. From what I have read of him he has consistently attacked Islam - for reasons best known to himself. The `confusion` expressed in his article arises from selectively quoting the verses. I realize you are posting someone else`s article, but I get the impression that in posting, you are expressing similar confusion (I apologize if I am wrong) All the questions posed in the article have been answered many times over by very capable scholars and by people who have made it their life`s task to interpret the Quran.

A while ago I had posted an article, addressing these exact questions. I realized the instant I posted it that I had made a mistake. That was not the time for it. Because I felt the timing was wrong, I requested Chowk to remove the remaining three parts. Given the surge of interest in Islam, now may be the time to revisit the article and answer the questions you have posed.

There is only one requirement for understanding: and that is an open and unprejudiced mind and heart. It is also the most difficult requirement.

Islam is not a religion of soundbites. Therein lies the problem we face today. Islam is portrayed in a media that revels in soundbites and what they take from Islam in that form simply cannot portray Islam. This is the challenge for us : How to talk about Islam to a people who understand small bits of commentary?

Rather than reprint the article here, I`ll select a few passages, but I have to remain mindful of the fact that I am doing what the post has done: which is to selectively quote :)

Most people who question Islam, bring up the question of women, and also as you have done regarding Aisha, the girl he married when she was only 6. She had already been betrothed, that being the custom in Arabia at the time. She was then formally given to Mohammed (swth) in a ceremony in which she was not present.

But the wedding itself took place when she was 9, an affair that was conducted with the bare minimum of fuss. Aisha herself had no idea she was getting married, and continued playing with her friends on a see-saw. After the brief ceremony itself, the marriage made little difference to Aisha`s life. Because she was so young, she continued to live with her parents and not with our Prophet. The marriage was consummated after she reached puberty (and not when she was nine years old, as you have indicated).

Aisha continued her playful lifestyle with her friends. If her friends left when they saw Mohammed (swth), he would go and bring them back - it pleased him to have them there for Aisha`s sake. Westerners express shock at the age difference between the two, but they do not attempt to look at the time period these events took place. Keep in mind that present day society with careers in management or corporations did not exist back then. There are many of us today whose mother`s were of 13 or 14 years of age when they got married. Today`s changed world affords many more opportunities, so we have to look at reinterpreted customs with today`s ramifications. The way Mohammed (swth) treated his wives is remarkable. With his wives and family he was no longer the Prophet of God. Hazrat Umar objected to this: ``How you spoil them!``, he exclaimed.

An interesting example is Hafsah, who was was afraid of Umar, but because of the easy tolerance of Mohammed (swth) Umar said the Prophet (swth) had made her cheeky . Umar used to ask his daughter: ``What is the matter? Why are you so proud?`` Hafsah, a widow, was ill-tempered and not good looking at all. Umar made every effort to find a husband for her, but no one would marry her. In order to unburden him of his responsibility, the Prophet (swth) sought her hand in marriage. This homely (to put it kindly), ill- tempered widow always created a fight for the Prophet (swth) and always embarrassed him by her shouting. The Prophet (swth) adjusted to her and their whole life they lived together compatibly. He treated all his wives with these amazing qualities of great patience, courtesy and humility towards others. The westernized impulse to condemn polygamy stems from an inability to understand the social role it can play.

It is far too easy to abuse it, and then to point to the abuse of it.

The media is full of accounts of the `exploitive` or `abusive` nature of Islam. In starting to write about it I remembered someone in another board (I think it was sridhar) who asked about Hajj. Hajj brings to focus the aspect of women in a clear manner:

The Quran states: To Allah belongs the east and west -wherever you turn, you will be facing Allah.

When praying outside of Kaaba you must face it. Any structure except Kaaba directs north, south, east, west, up or down. Kaaba, an exception, is facing all directions while it is facing none. Toward the west of Kaaba there is a semi-circular short wall which faces Kaaba. It is called Ismail`s Hajar. Hajar means skirt, and this semi circular wall resembles a skirt. Sarah, the wife of Ibrahim had a black Ethiopian maid called Hajar, who was extremely poor and humble, to such an extent that Sarah did not object to her bearing a child for Ibrahim.

This semicircular area of the skirt of Hajar was the area in which Ismail was raised and the house of Hajar is there. She is buried near the third column of Kaaba. No one, not even prophets, are buried in mosques but in this case, the house of a black maid is located next to the Kaaba. There is a narrow passage between the wall (Hajar`s skirt) and Kaaba. For the Hajj to be accepted by Allah, the hajji`s must go around the wall (not through the passage). The hajji`s must touch this skirt when circumambulating the Kaaba, and they also circumambulate the grave of a black African maid and a mother.

The One Reality is all alone. He needs no one and nothing. Yet among all His creations on earth, He chose one, mankind, as the viceregent.

From among this humanity: a woman,

From among all women: a slave.

And from among all slaves: an Ethiopian maid.

The weakest and humblest of one of His creatures was given a place at His side and her grave is in the shadow of the Kaaba. The rituals of Hajj are a memory of Hajar. The word Higrah (migration) has

its root in her name as does the word Mohajir (immigrant). ``The ideal immigrant is the one who behaved like Hajar,`` said our prophet Mohammad (PBUH). Higrah is what Hajar did. It is also a transition from savagery to becoming civilized and from disbelief to Islam because in Hajar`s Ethiopian language her name means ``the city`, symbolic of civilization. The Hajj itself becomes the migration toward civilization.

Re: Shahid Akhter Makhfi`s article

Mr Makhfi,

Welcome to chowk.

Noone is saying that muslims do not face a lot of challenges in India. Such challenges are faced by other minorities, untouchables, adivasis and so on. What we have in India (what most countries in the neighbourhood lack)is a vibrant democracy, a free press and fundamental rights including right to free speech and practice one`s religion. Muslims first need to get out of this ``seige`` mentality. Your article speaks in a tone which conveys the feeling that Indian culture is synonymous with hindu culture. Let us look at the following sentence that you wrote:

``The Muslims too did not remain unchanged. Indian culture was bound to influence them and no king or courtier was an exception.``

Does it not convey to some of us that you think muslims in India are not historically part of India. It is as if you are saying that muslims are here by accident. Instead of always bemoaning your fate, why not make use of the freedom that you enjoy in India (something not seen in most muslim countries)to further the interests of muslims. What muslims need to do is to fight it out. Last 50 years has not seen even one muslim leader who speaks for India and who has muslim interest in mind. We only hear the likes of Shahi Imam now and then. Where are the muslim intellectuals?

You have written at length about destruction of Babri Masjid. It was a shameful thing to have happened. Muslim intellectuals, leaders should get together and present a common front to address this problem in a peaceful way. Let us not forget that all Hindus consider Ram as God and not just a mere ``warrior king whose exploits are illustrated in the Ramayana (the epic) exemplifying the manipulation of Hinduism for political purposes`` as you put it. How much ignorance of the epic and of the hero of this epic you show in your above statement? Millions of Hindus, rightly or wrongly, consider the birth place of Ram to be exactly at the place where the Babri Masjid stood. Is it not surprising that there is no big temple at such a holy site? There must have been, before it was destroyed by muslim rulers. The question now is: was that temple at the exact site where the masjid stood. This question can never be answered satisfactorily and the matter is with the court. Muslims in India can earn eternal gratitude and goodwill of hindus if they were to say that they will be happy to allow the Ram temple to come up at that site in deference to the wishes of the majority. After all SriRam`s message was one of peace and amity. Besides, this mosque as we speak, is not being used for namaaz.

What muslims fear is that this is only a beginning and more such destruction of masjids may come. They need to realise that a free court and a free press are powerful tools. Besides, millions of secular Indians are not in favor of such demolitions. But ask any average hindu, he will tell you the temple at Ramjanmabhoomi is special. (For records,I am strictly against building a temple at the exact site where mosque once stood).

rgds,

SRidhar

Sadna

Excellent points in your posts. The lack of response is…illuminating.

The article seems like a midieval opinion (we have agreed not to dignify this pov with the name “Mughal”)looking for convenient facts. (With inconvenient ones not mentioned, of course, integrity not being particularly valued here.)

Zafar

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Lot of things in India are not only to be taken with a pinch of salt but as freaks of nature

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/oct/20rhino.htm

Water Rs 12 a litre, rhino urine Rs 250 a litre!

Krittivas Mukherjee in Calcutta Criminal minds will never cease to innovate. But, even in these times when one`s familiarity with crime is more than a passing nod, this one racket will leave most stumped -- making money from rhinoceros urine. Calcutta Police seem to have burst a flourishing illegal trade in rhino urine in the city zoo. The Alipore Zoo has two rhinos that are allegedly being made to relieve themselves `numerous` times a day for their `prized` urine which sells for as much as Rs 250 a litre. According to joint commissioner of police Raj Kanoria, rhino urine was being sold outside the zoo for its supposed curative powers by quacks. Gullible buyers are being told that rhino urine is an important ingredient in Chinese and Unani systems of medicine. The racket`s chain begins inside the zoo where unscrupulous elements make the animals urinate, allegedly by using drugs, at night. The urine is then collected in plastic bags and stored in the zoo staff quarters. According to figures provided by zoo authorities, the two rhinos relieve about 10 litres of urine everyday, but investigations now reveal that racketeers could be doping the animals to make them relieve more often. The packed urine is then sold as medicine for as much as Rs 250 a litre. Kanoria said police were trying to ascertain how the animals were being made to relieve so many times a day. The whole operation takes place around midnight near the staff quarters opposite the zoo. Police began inquiring into the racket after receiving complaints from residents of the area. Zoo authorities have said three staff members look after the zoo`s two rhinos. Police suspect the involvement of zoo staff in the racket. Rhinos are a protected species and sale of rhino urine is prohibited under wildlife laws. It is a popular belief that urine of tiger and many other animals, including rhinoceros, have medicinal value, but wildlife experts denied this. ``There is no medicinal property in the urine and faeces of the rhino, tiger and other animals. A section of unscrupulous people just make money out of such claims,`` according to wildlife expert Atanu Raha. Police have so far questioned four people in the case, but it was not yet known if any arrests had been made. Indo-Asian News Service Back to top Tell us what you think of this report

Reply Scout # 19

Scout

``why do Indians get so angry and hostile when faced with self criticism?``

Umm...I think it`s our egos (like everybody).

Also, the forum probably makes us somewhat defensive (again, like people from you know where).

In this case the article seemed somewhat unfair and presentation biased (selective use of facts, ignoring some important things, mentioning the colour of urinals in Delhi for chrissake...)

``i don`t think the writer hates India, he`s just expressing his take on some matters.``

I don`t think he hates India either - if he did I think he`d get a much less strident response. It`s the ideas behind the Indian union which he doesn`t seem to think much of (as shown by his selection of facts for presentation) and this is what excites Indians.

``if Indians are so intellectually `liberated` as they claim to be, they should take this criticism (albeit a little one sided) well.``

Who said we claimed to be `liberated`? We`re as chauvinistically nationalistic as Pakistanis any day!

I guess what it boils down to is:

Fact A would lead one to a certain inference.

Fact A and Fact B, considered together, would lead one to another inference.

So leaving out Fact B seems to indicate either malice, or ignorance explained by dishonesty about where the author lives, or both.

In saheb ka agenda kya hai?

Zafar

PS You get plenty of critical posts about India from Indians on chowk (Eklavya, Shankar, sometimes even me). Generally they don`t get a really hostile response from other Indian chowkies. Why are we reacting differently to this article? Can you see the difference?

one gets an impression from reading the article as if life is miserable for muslims living in india . as a muslim , i think it is far from truth .

In the past decade , there has been a defnitely rise in communal feelings across india but still the majority of the people are tolerant .

I have observed people link the rise of BJP to the rise in communal and anti muslims feelings . but it is not so the rise of BJP was more so because of downfall of the congress and inability of the congress to provide a leader of the masses . Even so BJP has so far failed to secure an absolute majority in the parliament and i doubt they will ever be able to do so . As of now people see them as no different from congress .

shahid saab mentions the color of toilet tiles and i think it is simply an idiotic point . please do refrain from stooping so low .

I agree the muslims representation in govt jobs is low but then i would ask him to quote the number of muslims with qualifications that have applied for such jobs ? i have seen muslim students in the first year of college had only one ambition to go to middle east or US . even before trying they think they will be disciminated in india . nowadays i see muslims organisations realising this mistake and helping muslim students to prepare for competetive jobs and exams . i am sure with sustained efforts inshallah muslims will make a mark in india .

i do agree that government is too soft on people like Bal Thackeray . but that is becaue it may lead to unnecessary riots and his followers making him a hero. This strategy has paid dividends now and his influence is slowly but surely diminishig . Also, the supreme court has taken voting rights from him . and i am sure srikrishna report will see the light of the day soon . i believe justice might be slow but it will be done .

People like Gowardhan and harimau maybe too vocal about their hatred for muslims but please do not assume it is voice of all indians .

Thanks

Problems facing Muslims in India are similar to those facing African Americans in USA— lack of education, poverty and distrust by majority community.

There is a small class of affluent Muslims; many are politically well connected, some run Bollyhood and some are successful businessman. This class sends their children to convent schools in India and colleges in US and Europe. The middle class includes white-collar workers and small businessmen who live in big and small cities. Many send their children to local language schools, as they cannot afford English language schools. As compared to the Hindu middle class, the Muslim middle class is very small. Most of Muslims fall in poor class who are working very hard just to get by. Many times, rich Muslims and religious groups use Muslim poor class to further their own agenda.

Muslims hold about 2% of IAS and IPS posts. This is mainly due to lack of education as these slots are filled using competitive examinations and there are no reserved slots for Muslims (however, 30% plus are reserved for so called ‘backward’ classes).

In engineering schools (IITs and others), Muslims student populations is less than 5%. Again, this is not due to discrimination but lack of preparation in middle and high schools.

A few Hindus unfairly regard Muslims as Pakistan sympathizers or worst. Muslim are no more traitors to India than Hindus are. The call of Jihad from Pakistan does not help Indian Muslims.

What India need is affirmative action for Muslims which will help them to get better educational and economical opportunities. RSS/BJP demagogy will not let it happen.

Secondly, Muslims should lean from American blacks about power of ballet box.

RE: Reply # 49 macgupta

[``Which alternate reality does the author live in ? ``]

Seems like there are alternate realities indeed.

The reality of the Indian muslims, terrorized, hounded, humiliated, brutalized and marginalized.

Then there is the alternate reality in which the Indian expatriates live, both the RSS sympathizers/chanda givers and the well meaning liberals. The RSS types believe that muslims and christians are getting what they deserve and the liberals think that falana commission and falani report will actual make a difference in the miserable lives of Indian minorities.

Quit whining about the Babri masjid criminals like Advani and his ilk.

The worst enemeies of -- Indian Muslims -- or as dost-mittar says -- Muslim Indians are -- their madrasas and the masjids -- and their bhukhari imams.Period.

I would be interested in knowing whether the following scares anyone in India? While it is common for everyday folk to attempt to threaten the places of worship of other religions, it takes on a whole new level, when the ruling party makes such a claim. For example, I would get very wary, if Musharraf were to get up today, and state at a corps commanders meeting that Pakistan needs to tear down a temple. Even Fazl-ur-Rahman doesn`t make such statements.

This is not an attempt to get into a, ``we are better than you,`` contest (to avoid that, lets assume from the get-go that Indians are better and more civilized than Pakistanis). However, I am interested in why Indians seem so concerned about religious extremism in Pakistan, but not too concerned about the changes in their own society (which will have far larger negative and violent consequences, in my opinion).

``Back to Ayodhya

At a Special Session, the BJP declares that it is poised to forge ahead with its own agenda, despite the compulsions of coalition politics, reports Venkat Parsa

New Delhi, October 21

The BJP adopted an important resolution, which brought on board both the Ayodhya issue and the party decision to go nuclear......

The BJP resolution signalled the party`s resolve to press ahead with a paradigm shift in the national policy-framework. Long-cherished policies like secularism and nuclear disarmament get short thrift......

Significantly, the BJP National Council raked up the Ayodhya issue. Union Home Minister L K Advani spoke highly of BJP`s role in leading the Ayodhya agitation. The BJP National Council adopted a resolution on the occasion, justifying the Ayodhya agitation and eulogising its role in shaping the party`s future......

Union Home Minister L K Advani was highly vocal on the Ram Temple Card and defended the decision of the ruling BJP to give an agitational thrust to the Ramjanmabhoomi issue, as part of the program of cultural nationalism. But for the Ayodhya agitation, Advani said, the BJP would not have grown to its present position.....(Tehelka.com... http://www.tehelka.com/channels/currentaffairs/2001/oct/21/ca102101jubilee.htm)

A few thousand unemployed youth burning American flags, behind Fazl-ur-Rahman is one thing. The Prime and senior ministers of an elected govt. making the above statements, in a country with 140 million Muslims is another. Since I do not live in India, I am not too effected by the social changes in India, but just for educational purposes, would like to know whether the above scares anyone in India?

Any objective comments from Indians (specially Indian Muslims) will be appreciated.

After Ayaz Amir and Khalid Hasan -- here is the Friday Times editorial on -- institutionalized cheating -- by the ``corruption crusaders`` of Musharraf Brigade.

Disgraceful

Editorial by Najm Sethi

(Friday Times)

To prove a point, one of our reporters cast four votes in the “presidential” referendum yesterday, all in favour of General Pervez Musharraf, in four different polling stations within a kilometre radius.

Another outwitted her by stamping six votes in the general’s favour.

The story is much the same across the country. One could vote as many times as one desired and many did.

This is adult franchise taken to preposterous limits for dubious ends. Think of it, 71 percent turnout of which 97.5 percent voted ‘yes’. So much for the credibility of the exercise.

If ever there was a case of deliberate institutional rigging, this was it.

No formal ID was required for voting. There were no constituency lists. The opposition wasn’t allowed to canvass votes against the referendum.

Billions were doled out to hire crowds for pro-Musharraf rallies and lug pro-Musharraf voters to the polling stations.

The number of polling booths was increased tenfold.

And the voting age was reduced from 21 to 18 years so that millions of new voters without any memory of the military’s disastrous interventions in 1958 and 1977 could be added to the kitty.

Worse, much worse, tens of millions of low and middle level civil servants, factory workers, school teachers, peons, janitors, jail inmates, soldiers, paramilitary troops, policemen etc were ordered by private and public employers to shape up or ship out.

This is unprecedented even in Pakistan’s flawed electoral history.

Just think of it. Wardens ordering prisoners to stamp “yes” on ballot papers. Department heads taking roll calls and lining up subordinates at special polling station on the premises.

Policemen on the streets and rangers on border patrol, even as their votes were being stuffed in ballot boxes and winging their way to headquarters.

The most appalling aspect of this sordid affair was the despicable role of the private sector. Of capitalists, bankers, factory owners, school/college owners/principals, traders and businessmen ordering their employees to queue up for General Musharraf.

Of multinationals that went overboard in rustling up their workers. “Captive” voters in the hands of capricious elites. Disgraceful. If April 30 was a sad day for democracy, the complicity of civil society should not go un-remarked.

Why did General Musharraf go for an overkill when every pundit with even a remote memory of the farcical presidential referendum held by General Zia ul Haq in 1984 had advised against it?

The question of legitimacy haunts every dictator and General Musharraf is no exception, however benign his attitude towards the press or however cooperative his response to the international community’s war against terrorism.

Thus the common perception is that an overwhelming “yes” in the presidential referendum should give General Musharraf a degree of civilian legitimacy that is sorely lacking in him. This is buttressed by the fact that the Supreme Court of Pakistan has said that he is perfectly entitled to hold such a referendum. But the facts belie this argument.

The Supreme Court has not said that this referendum is a constitutional substitute for a presidential election.

In fact, it has left that issue to be resolved by the parliament that comes into being after the next general elections in October.

Nor does a referendum, however credible or successful, under a provisional constitutional order legitimizing a military coup (which is the legal umbrella under which General Musharraf is currently operating), eliminate the requirement for a parliamentary endorsement after the constitution has been fully restored.

Indeed, every action that General Musharraf has taken in the last three years will require a constitutional sanction by means of a two-thirds majority in the next parliament.

So what is the point of a referendum today if, in the ultimate analysis, General Musharraf’s fate lies in the hands of a parliament that is yet to be born?

The answer is that the referendum was never meant to be an exercise in acquiring legitimacy.

Instead, it is an attempt to flex muscle and browbeat intransigent political opponents to join the Musharraf camp so that a King’s Party or Alliance can be cobbled to win the next general elections and become a dutiful parliamentary appendage to President General Musharraf.

Indeed, General Musharraf admitted as much when he said that he was conducting this exercise because he wanted “to get the fence-sitters off the fence”, alluding to the many political stalwarts in the country who had not yet deserted the two mainstream parties led by Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif.

Has he succeeded in his objective of ensuring, as he put it once, an “upper hand in parliament”?

No.

Whatever the government may claim, the opposition will certainly be emboldened by the referendum’s lack of credibility at home and abroad.

Indeed, an element of defiance could creep into the main opposition parties, forcing General Musharraf to adopt repressive policies, which in turn would hurt his benign image and undermine his credibility further.

The fear is that in the ensuing tussle for the hearts and minds of Pakistanis in the run-up to the October elections, General Musharraf may be erroneously advised to postpone the elections on some pretext or the other or try and rig them massively to thwart his opponents.

In the event, the loss won’t be his only. It will be Pakistan’s too.(FT)

And here is our Irfan Husain with his personal experience of referundum and his incomparable analysis.

Hold the champagne

By Irfan Husain

As the official media bombards the nation with statistics indicating a massive victory in the referendum for General Musharraf, both the opposition and the public are questioning the validity of these claims.

Speaking for myself, all the polling booths I saw in Karachi last Tuesday were practically deserted, and I must have driven past at least a score of them on my way to and from work.

When I went to vote in the morning, there were half a dozen men in line ahead of me, and none of our thumbs were marked with any kind of ink.

Clearly, the sudden MQM boycott in Karachi had been highly effective in keeping voters away.

The pattern in the rest of the country was fairly similar.

However, the government managed to garner a heavy turnout in state organizations, factories and prisons. The problem is that public and media perceptions have been shaped by the forlorn polling stations and the bored election staff.

And in politics, it is perceptions that count.

Thus, in a stroke, Pervez Musharraf has suffered a sharp loss of credibility, his most precious asset.

Unfortunately for the general, the damage has been entirely self-inflicted.

Although his victory was a foregone conclusion, this referendum was always about the size of the turnout: Pakistanis remember all too well Zia`s farcical referendum of 1984 in which barely 5% of the electorate bothered to vote, and the government claimed that 60% of the voters had supported the dictator`s bid to hang on for another five years.

Now we are faced with a situation in which the results are again controversial with a corresponding loss of credibility.

According to newspaper reports and independent observers, many incidents of bogus voting were seen.

One young man claimed to have voted 18 times; a school teacher stamped 350 ballot papers because, according to her, she had been given a target of 500, but only 150 women turned up the whole day, so she made up the difference; scores of cases of underage boys voting at several booths were reported.

_____________________________________________

One reason it was so easy to stuff the ballot boxes is that as there were no competing candidates, there were no polling agents present to protect their candidates` interests.

_______________________________________________

With this background in mind, those in power should go easy on the champagne while celebrating this Pyrrhic victory.

Indeed, perhaps in a day or so they will count the cost of the whole exercise, and I do not mean the horrendous expenditure incurred on this entire surreal business.

Apart from the inflated numbers being put out by the Election Commission, Musharraf has suffered a serious erosion of respect and affection through his bizarre campaign. Most people wondered why he was aping the very politicians he professes to despise when he had no opponents.

Surely his long, convoluted televised speech in early April was enough to set the stage for the referendum: if anything, his rallies, with their forced requisitioning of public transport, their rent-a-crowd and their attendant inconvenience to the public, switched voters off.

Another major loss General Musharraf has suffered is that his long honeymoon with the press has come to an end. Ever since he seized power through a coup in October 1999, the independent print media has been highly supportive of the general and his reforms.

But this crude circumvention of the constitutional process to elect the president has alienated many of his supporters.

Predictably, the Supreme Court has legitimized the process, thus living up to its reputation in public eyes as well as in the legal fraternity.

Since September 11, General Musharraf has been the darling of the West. His support to the US-led `war against terror` won him many friends in Washington and other western capitals.

From being a pariah, he became a welcome friend overnight. This goodwill has stilled some American criticism of the referendum, but the western press has been almost uniformly hostile to the whole concept.

How long it will take for this disenchantment to work its way into policy will be determined in part by the needs of the battle against al-Qaeda and the Taliban, but clearly, Musharraf`s image in the West has lost its sheen.

Both internally and externally, Musharraf was perceived as a straight-talking, well-meaning soldier who was very different from the politicians who have caused so much damage to both the economy and to whatever institutions that had remained intact.

In short, he held the moral high ground. But if the real results of the referendum are perceived to be at odds with those announced by the Election Government, a crisis of confidence could well shake the seemingly firm foundations of the military government.

Even assuming that the general has won by the stated majority of around 98% with a turnout of 44 million, what next?

With general and provincial elections due in October, a very strained relationship between the president and the elected prime minister and his party seems inevitable.

Indeed, given the low credibility of the Election Commission after the referendum, it is doubtful that the opposition will accept its supervision of the October polls.

The tensions and strains that will surface will hardly lead to a more stable Pakistan, although that is Musharraf`s goal.

Until the army chief announced the referendum three short weeks ago, most Pakistanis were quite happy to let him continue.

He had handled the economy well; he took the only sane route open to him in the aftermath on the terror attacks on the United States last September; and his generally liberal approach was welcomed by the majority.

But by opening the Pandora`s box of the referendum, he took a big gamble that might backfire.

One major cost we cannot quantify immediately is the unification of virtually every political party across the spectrum on the anti-referendum platform.

Now that Musharraf has openly stated his intention to stay for at least five more years and completely dominate the scene, he has left the entire political class no option but to oppose him.

In the words of an editorial in the current issue of The Economist of London:

``....It would be better, for clarity`s sake, for Mr Musharraf to remain the dictator he is, and step down when his job is done, than indulge in this bogus referendum.

Such exercises serve only to give democracy a bad name.`` (DAWN)

Zafar Al-Talib #78, scout #60 ylh #68
This article (and the braindead responses like scout #60 and ylh #68 and ali1 as always) typify the problems India faces in the Hindu-Muslim issue.

Firstly, that the very legitimate grievances/concerns of Indian Muslims donot get the objective and factual airing which they so urgently need and deserve. This because of the airtime demanded by the larger `agendas` which consider facts are secondary to ideologies of hatred.

Secondly, some of the children of these larger agendas/ideologies aka hatreds like the ignoramuses from the Land of the Pure. They jump up and down in their efforts to pose as spokesmen for Indian Muslims about whose real problems they have absolutely no clue (apart from the fundamental one, namely the highly regrettable existence of Hindus).

I pity those Indians who consider these people from Pukistan to be their spokesmen. For example, the Pukis(I never appreciated the term so much) havenot recognised the Srikrishna report even though they are being hit in the face with it, it will be a few centuries (and a few nukes dropped on infidels) before they even realise that India`s secualr credentials require that it be acted upon(which it isnot currently, but hey its obvious they neither know nor care).

I really understand now about Nehru, he knew what he was doing. Nehru Zindabad!


scout #60
`Fiza` can be used to prove India is secular? I didnot know, you tell me, I havenot seen it except for a few scenes here and there. I am surprised the author hasn`t seen it, though, neither the movie Bombay. He seems to read only the New York Times.


ylh #68
``How is this relevant to Pakistan??``

Ignorance is relevant to Pakistan. The author isn`t from Malaysia, thats for sure.

ali1 #84
`` The RSS types believe that muslims and christians are getting what they deserve and the liberals think that falana commission and falani report will actual make a difference in the miserable lives of Indian minorities.``

`` The reality of the Indian muslims, terrorized, hounded, humiliated, brutalized and marginalized.``

ali1, in your stupidity you donot realise, the reality of the Indian muslims, terrorized, etc is only the first or beginning part of the reality.

The second part of the complete reality towards which we Hindus are working is that PAKISTANIS will be terrorized, humiliated, brutalized and marginalized also. And on that part of the program, both RSS-types and liberal Hindus have exactly the same views and no one-man commission or paper reports will come to your rescue. I have tried to warn you about it repeatedly, but you are like a stuck record on Indian Muslims.

re arrested development

I think you`re upset because I called your bluff about Jinnah being Governor and Prime Minister. MOst of your post addressed to me makes little coherent sense. The point about the percentages of Muslims in India vis-a-vis Bengalis in Pakistan was to illustrate(to another interactor)the imprudence of comparing such vastly different statistical samples. Nonetheless, you`ve chosen to create a ``Bengali Muslim`` thing out of it(creative, I must admit). Which leads me to refute a few glaring things in your post.

``Bengali muslims were concentrated in one corner of East Bengal ``

Huh? Bengali Muslims were all over Bengal, mostly in East Bengal but I doubt `concentrated` in any portion of East Bengal in particular.

``...,they never became refugees ,yet twice they got there wish.Once East Pakistan & then 72 Bangladesh .What about the muslims from rest of the India ,``

Bengali Muslims DID become refugees in the hundreds of thousands. When my grandparents moved from Murshidabad to Chittagong, trust me it was not as weekend tourists. In that regard they were no different from millions of Muslims and Hindus and Sikhs all over the South Asian sub-continent.

``Twice they became REFUGEES.Once when they were in E.Pakistan & then again when they had to leave it BECAUSE of bengali muslims.``

Now I am lost. What Muslims had to `leave` because of Bengali Muslims?

re jay 71

That sometimes your passion outruns your grasp of balanced facts is evident from the part on honor killings. Yesterday, the Lahore High Court sentenced a man to death for a double honour killing case. In this instance, the high Bench was revewing and revising a lower case judgement of seven years. That does not negate the same High Court`s earlier and shameful silence on a previous honor killing case. But it does tell me that you can be selective in your facts.

The rest of your post is full of hypotheses and innuendos and plain intolerance. I never shy away from strongly questioning the practices in many Islamic/Arab countries or India. Attacking a national group or faith tradition ad hominem, however, is something that smacks of border-line bigotry as is clear from your

``A couple of honour killing is the routine life task of any respectable pakistani, and that should be the proof enough of the essential equality of a religion that forms the foundation of pakistan. ``

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Reply Ali1 # 84

Arre abh suraj kahan se nikala?

Reply Reason # 82

I agreed with almost everything in your post, but must say that Gowardhan does not hate Muslims.

Reply Rsridhar # 75

Sridhar

To be honest I find it hard to believe that Makhfi is from Delhi – the holes in his knowledge about Indian affairs and Hinduism are just too great. (Frankly it’s on a par with an article I read on Chowk comparing India’s Brahminical Raj with Pakistan’s secularism, written by some uninformed Italian clown whose alleged enrollment at Rutgers reduced my respect for the institution.) You un-necessarily dignify the article with your attempt to discuss the issues with him.

Re: RJB/BM – like most Indians, most Indian Muslims are concerned with day to day roti kapda makan type issues. Conflicts over places of worship (the one thing which India has no shortage of whatsoever) do not overshadow our lives (though they are a convenient vehicle for frauds like Bukhari to defend their status as big fish in small uneducated ponds).

These issues only become relevant if they are indicative of how Indian Muslims themselves are viewed and treated in India. (When they are “proxy wars”, if you will, and they often are.) That’s why it is vital that the conflict be settled in court, in accordance with the law. And that the court’s judgement (whatever it turns out to be) is enforced.

Zafar

PS Frankly I find RJB/BM a totally false issue – nobody’s life is going to be improved by it reverting to mosque or temple. In my opinion the site should be made into a school or a hospital – or failing that, a parking lot.

Reply Romair # 74

Romair

“I would be interested in knowing whether the following scares anyone in India? While it is common for everyday folk to attempt to threaten the places of worship of other religions,”

It is not common. (Urstruly says otherwise but has been unable to provide facts to back up his pov so far.) That’s why when it happens there is (very rightly) such a fuss.

“…it takes on a whole new level, when the ruling party makes such a claim.”

True. It is appalling and worrying.

“This is not an attempt to get into a, ``we are better than you,`` contest (to avoid that, lets assume from the get-go that Indians are better and more civilized than Pakistanis).``

Aap ke munh men ghee shakkar!

``However, I am interested in why Indians seem so concerned about religious extremism in Pakistan, but not too concerned about the changes in their own society (which will have far larger negative and violent consequences, in my opinion).”

But we are. And also, what happens in Pakistan also affects India, so of course we`re concerned.

Zafar

Reply Scout # 58

“Seriously, if I even criticize the color of grass in India…”

Now please leave our drugs out of this.

“…so now you`re turning to Bollywood trash to prove how secular India is”

Unfair, Scoutji. Bollywood trash is vulgar, crass, tasteless, crude, ugly, and..er..trashy, but it IS an accurate reflection of what’s happening in Indian society and to India’s aspirations. (Hai, yeh main ne kya kaha…)

Zafar

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Zafar for Prime Minister!

A banned Marxist group bombed a Coca Cola

plant in Andhra Pradesh, protesting the

American bombardment of Afghanistan.

The New York Times (Oct 22) quotes ``Irfan

Khan, Vice President for Coca-Cola India`s

corporate affairs``, as saying that the company

would not succumb to these attacks, but ``we

are worried about the security and safety of

our staff and plants``.

----

If Mr. Irfan Khan could not operate effectively in

the supposedly oppressive Indian

circumstances, why would the multinational

hire him ?

----

-Arun Gupta

MFarooqi,

{{Most people who question Islam, bring up the question of women, and also as you have done regarding Aisha, the girl he married when she was only 6. She had already been betrothed, that being the custom in Arabia at the time. She was then formally given to Mohammed (swth) in a ceremony in which she was not present.}}

I`m glad you bought that up. Such a custom was not just prevalant in muslim societies; but in hindu societies as well. Its very unfair & to pass judgement by today`s cultural/ethical standards to what used to happen a few centuries ago. Every culture & religion had practices that would be considered abhorrent by today`s standards.

My own brahmin grandma was married to my grandpa at the age of 9. As an idealistic & immature teenager, when I learned of that, I announced to her that ``you were sold to my grandpa like animals were sold!``. My poor grandma burst into tears. Needless to say, I got my butt tanned for it:) Ironically, it happened on the day my granda & grandpa were celebrating their 53rd wedding anniversary.

I`ve never seen two married people who were more devoted to each other:)

Re: scout

``One being that India is less secular in nature than it pretends to be.``

How do you measure how secular India ``pretends`` to be? India`s constitution is secular, governments are forced to conform to it, and much of society reveals itself to be secular. Even the much maligned BJP is forced to temper itself and has a Christian for Defense Minister (George Fernandes) and Muslims for External Affairs Minister (Omar Abdullah), Head of Missile/Nuclear Program (APJ Kalaam), and Aviation Minister (Shahnawaz Hussein).

India is not perfect; no country that size can ever be perfect.

Just because the KKK causes racial violence in the US, one can`t deny that the US is still THE single best country for blacks to live and prosper in.

Can you make sense of that analogy? Difference between institutionalized ills vs social ills?

Romair:

``lets assume from the get-go that Indians are better and more civilized than Pakistanis.``

Arrey boss, yahin to galti kartey ho. We are not more civilized than you. Hum log bhee utney hee harami hain. When an Indian says India is better than Pakistan, it does not refer to Indians being better than Pakistanis. Those are two different things.

America is a pluralistic society. American ideals are liberal and democratic, and its laws are not biased. This does not mean all Americans are free of bigotry and racism. It refers to the ideals of the nation state.

Indians believe, in vast numbers, in secularism. They don`t want religion, any religion, shoved into their faces. That is an ideal. But, under siege, it is usually the base emotions that come out. I read this article and I agree with the author on some things, but not on all.

India is becoming more right wing, yes, I think so. Will it become a Hindutva oriented theocracy. I don`t think so. In its present form as a soft state, India will remain in its current form of controlled chaos. If there is a shift towards the extreme right, it wll only be possible with the active participation of the elites of India. However, once the elites have made their rightward shift, they will turn their guns with equal alacrity on the Hindutva types. More than caste, religion etc, the bedrock of India is the class system. The lumpens of Hindutva will never be allowed real power. In that sense, Hinduism, because of its flexibility makes it easier for religion to be defined in different ways according to different circumstances.

I woudn`t be surprised, if upon acheiving political power in absolute terms, the religious types are the first to get the heave ho, from the essentially non-religious elites.

Reason

It was very interesting reading your post. I am struck that you saw Muslim college students wanting to go to the Middle East. Was this becausing of better opportunities?, then why not go to America? or was it that they did not see a future for themselves in India? And was this ``their`` mistake?

Zafar 81

You must know by now that I wish you no injury, yet persistently, you offer injury to all those who point the absurd proportions of the sense of injury that very significant numbers of Indian Muslims feel.

I think I understand your politics, and many times appreciate the subtlty and nuance with which you have kept some at bay - till when will you remain so close to the fence?

the author has a point of view or agenda? don`t we all? ego? sure. Not the complete picture? well sure; But how complete does it have be, truth on the altar of an interpretation of secularism that bans a SIMI, while RSS, VHP and Shiv Sena enjoy freedom in the corridors of power?, while an entire history is rewritten to make the caste system a response against foreign invaders?

I sympathise with those Indian Muslims, who are conscious and proud of being Muslims and also concious and proud to be Indians. Must they suffer on the account of these conscience and attachments? or remain silent while other Muslims seek to opt out of India? Sadly, under these circumstances, the answer seems to be that terrorism is at the root of the problem.

I generally felt sad at reading this article. you must know that it is confirmation for me, but I still hold your advice from earlier conversations and renew my respect for the patience some exercise, yet is difficult for me: how much longer this walking on egg shells? when will it be OK to call a spade a spade? when will enough be enough? when will someone stand up to say ``no more``? - you are more sensible than I, you see further than I. But of course there are so many other problems to focus on.

Be happy.

In case you haven`t read this yet...

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/10/18/muslimmemo/index.html

A memo to American Muslims

It`s time for us to search our souls. How can the message of Muhammad become a source of horror and fear? How can Islam inspire thousands of youth to dedicate their lives to killing others?

Editor`s note: The heartfelt and brave missive below, which is circulating on the Web, comes as a bolt of reason in an increasingly unhinged time. Written by an American Muslim scholar who was born in India, educated at Georgetown University and now teaches political science at a Michigan college, the open letter calls upon fellow Muslims to cast aside violent passions and superstitions and embrace Islam`s higher calling. The memo is a direct challenge to Islamic intellectuals and clerics like Egyptian sheikh Muhammad Al-Gamei`a, imam of the Islamic Cultural Center and Mosque of New York City, whose wild-eyed descriptions of the Sept. 11 terror attacks as a Jewish plot deserve the emphatic condemnation of thinking people everywhere.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

By M. A. Muqtedar Khan

Oct. 18, 2001 | In the name of Allah, the most Benevolent and the Most Merciful. May this memo find you in the shade of Islam enjoying the mercy, the protection and the grace of Allah. I am writing this memo to you all with the explicit purpose of inviting you to lead the American Muslim community in soul searching, reflection and reassessment.

What happened on Sept. 11 in New York and Washington will forever remain a horrible scar on the history of Islam and humanity. No matter how much we condemn it, and point to the Quran and the Sunnah to argue that Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, the fact remains that the perpetrators of this crime against humanity have indicated that their actions are sanctioned by Islamic values. The fact that even now several Muslim scholars and thousands of Muslims defend the accused is indicative that not all Muslims believe that the attacks are un-Islamic. This is truly sad.



Even if it were true that Israel and the U.S. are enemies of the Muslim world, a response that mercilessly murders thousands of innocent people, including hundreds of Muslims, is absolutely indefensible. If anywhere in your hearts there is any sympathy or understanding with those who committed this act, I invite you to ask yourself this question: Would Muhammad sanction such an act?

While encouraging Muslims to struggle against injustice (Al Quran 4:135), Allah also imposes strict rules of engagement. He says in unequivocal terms that to kill an innocent being is like killing entire humanity (Al Quran 5:32). He also encourages Muslims to forgive Jews and Christians if they have committed injustices against us (Al Quran 2:109, 3:159, 5:85).

Muslims, including American Muslims, have been practicing hypocrisy on a grand scale. They protest against the discriminatory practices of Israel but are silent against the discriminatory practices in Muslim states. In the Persian Gulf one can see how laws and even salaries are based on ethnic origin. This is racism, but we never hear of Muslims protesting against them at international forums.

The Israeli occupation of Palestine is perhaps central to Muslim grievance against the West. While acknowledging that, I must remind you that Israel treats its 1 million Arab citizens with greater respect and dignity than most Arab nations treat their citizens. Today Palestinian refugees can settle in the U.S. and become American citizens, but in spite of all the tall rhetoric of the Arab world and Quranic injunctions (24:22), no Muslim country except Jordan extends this support to them.

While we loudly and consistently condemn Israel for its ill treatment of Palestinians, we are silent when Muslim regimes abuse the rights of Muslims and slaughter thousands of them. Remember Saddam Hussein and his use of chemical weapons against Muslims (Kurds)? Remember the Pakistani army`s excesses against Muslims (Bengalis)? Remember the mujahideen of Afghanistan and their mutual slaughter? Have we ever condemned them for their excesses? Have we demanded international intervention or retribution against them? Do you know how the Saudis treat their minority Shiis? Have we protested the violation of their rights? But we all are eager to condemn Israel; not because we care for the rights and lives of the Palestinians; we don`t. We condemn Israel because we hate ``them.``

Muslims love to live in the U.S. but also love to hate it. Many openly claim that the U.S. is a terrorist state but they continue to live in it. Their decision to live here is testimony that they would rather live here than anywhere else. As an Indian Muslim, I know for sure that nowhere on earth, including India, will I get the same sense of dignity and respect that I have received in the U.S. No Muslim country will treat me as well as the U.S. has. If what happened on Sept. 11 had happened in India, the world`s biggest democracy, thousands of Muslims would have been slaughtered in riots on mere suspicion and there would be another slaughter after the culprits` identity was confirmed. But in the U.S., bigotry and xenophobia have been kept in check by the media and political leaders. In many places hundreds of Americans have gathered around Islamic centers in symbolic gestures of protection and embrace of American Muslims. In many cities Christian congregations have started wearing hijab to identify with fellow Muslim women. In patience and in tolerance ordinary Americans have demonstrated their extraordinary virtues.

It is time that we acknowledge that the freedoms we enjoy in the U.S. are more desirable to us than superficial solidarity with the Muslim world. If you disagree, then prove it by packing your bags and going to whichever Muslim country you identify with. If you do not leave and do not acknowledge that you would rather live here than anywhere else, know that you are being hypocritical.

It is time that we faced these hypocritical practices and struggled to transcend them. It is time that American Muslim leaders fought to purify their own lot. For over a decade we have watched as Muslims in the name of Islam have committed violence against other Muslims and other peoples. We have always found a way to reconcile the vast distance between Islamic values and Muslim practices by pointing to the injustices committed upon Muslims by others. The point however is this -- our belief in Islam and commitment to Islamic values is not contingent on the moral conduct of the U.S. or Israel. And as Muslims can we condone such inhuman and senseless waste of life in the name of Islam?

The biggest victims of hate-filled politics as embodied in the actions of several Muslim militias all over the world are Muslims themselves. Hate is the extreme form of intolerance and when individuals and groups succumb to it they can do nothing constructive. Militias like the Taliban have allowed their hate for the West to override their obligation to pursue the welfare of their people and as a result of their actions not only have thousands of innocent people died in America, but thousands of people will die in the Muslim world.

Already, half a million Afghans have had to leave their homes and their country. It will only get worse as the war escalates. Hamas and Islamic Jihad may kill a few Jews, women and children included, with their suicide bombs and temporarily satisfy their lust for Jewish blood, but thousands of Palestinians then pay the price for their actions.

The culture of hate and killing is tearing away at the moral fabric of the Muslim society. We are more focused on ``the other`` and have completely forgotten our duty to Allah. In pursuit of the inferior jihad we have sacrificed the superior jihad.

Islamic resurgence, the cherished ideals of which pursued the ultimate goal of a universally just and moral society, has been hijacked by hate and calls for murder and mayhem. If Osama bin Laden were an individual, then we would have no problem. But unfortunately bin Laden has become a phenomenon -- a cancer eating away at the morality of our youth, and undermining the spiritual health of our future.

Today the century-old Islamic revival is in jeopardy because we have allowed insanity to prevail over our better judgment. Yes, the U.S. has played a hand in the creation of bin Laden and the Taliban, but it is we who have allowed them to grow and gain such a foothold. It is our duty to police our world. It is our responsibility to prevent people from abusing Islam. It is our job to ensure that Islam is not misrepresented. We should have made sure that what happened on Sept. 11 should never have happened.

It is time the leaders of the American Muslim community woke up and realized that there is more to life than competing with the American Jewish lobby for power over U.S. foreign policy. Islam is not about defeating Jews or conquering Jerusalem. It is about mercy, about virtue, about sacrifice and about duty. Above all it is the pursuit of moral perfection. Nothing can be further away from moral perfection than the wanton slaughter of thousands of unsuspecting innocent people.

I hope that we will now rededicate our lives and our institutions to the search for harmony, peace and tolerance. Let us be prepared to suffer injustice rather than commit injustices. After all, it is we who carry the divine burden of Islam and not others. We have to be morally better, more forgiving, more sacrificing than others, if we wish to convince the world about the truth of our message. We cannot simply be equal to others in virtue, we must excel.

It is time for soul searching. How can the message of Muhammad, who was sent as mercy to mankind, become a source of horror and fear? How can Islam inspire thousands of youth to dedicate their lives to killing others? We are supposed to invite people to Islam, not murder them.

The worst exhibition of Islam happened on our turf. We must take first responsibility to undo the evil it has manifest. This is our mandate, our burden and also our opportunity.

About the writer

Muqtedar Khan is a political science professor at Adrian College in Michigan. He is on the board of the Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy.

Welcome bhai :-) Assalamu alaykum! Such accounts of the Indian brethrens suffering in India really moves me and makes me sad. May Allah protect the followers of His Prophet and Habib (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) everywhere. Unfortunately, I think that India will become, eventually, a Hindu state and even drop its claims to secularism which does not bode well for India`s minorities; IF it does become properly secular than your future might be okay but i am not optimistic. Having said that I think that to an extent Muslims in India are as much to blame for their relative backwardness in wordly terms as Muslims in Pakistan and elsewhere in the Muslim world are.

We have turned away from Islam. Allah says, enter Islam completely and learning knowledge is an essential part of Islam too. This INCLUDES wordly [scientific] knowledge as well as Deeni knowledge. Unfortunately we have lost a lot of our Islamic scholarly heritage and are also not learning wordly knowledge. To blame Hindus and other kafirs is the easy way out. Indeed, they are not our well-wishers,on the contrary, but we have ourselves to blame too. What India`s Muslims have to do is the following. This plan was indeed put forward as early as 1904 by ala Hazrat Imam Ahmad Raza Khan quds sirruhu; alas, neither Pakistani Muslims nor Indian Muslims have paid heed. It is simple.

1. Muslims have to become ECONOMICALLY independent. This means being educated now. So to get technical and modern education is a must. This does not mean we abandon the deeni education either.

2. Muslims must form communities based around a Sufi saint and awliya; rich and educated Muslims must then live together in little communities, trading with other Muslims and doing business with each other, helping their less-fortunate brethren/sisters so they in turn can benefit from education e.g by building private schools etc. A good example of this is the way the Chinese community form little Chinatowns wherever they go.

3. In short you will have islands of Islam in an ocean of kufr.

4. Eventually the economic might of such communities and their education and knowledge and know-how will become influential enough to make the Hindu majority take notice of its demands.

This is not the exact wording of ala hazrat`s plan --i will try to seek it out--but it is based on the idea of economic independence of the Muslims and the idea of self-help, Muslims helping other Muslims etc. It is also a peaceful path. The centre of it is the love of Allah`s Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam expressed in its actual form of Muslim communities growing around a luminous spiritual guide or personality in each area who is the inheritor of the Prophetic grace. Thus this will have the added benefit of recapturing Islam from the terrorists belonging to the Wahabi/Deobandi sects who have hijacked Islam in recent years and months...

The same formula of a community of spiritually minded and spiritually growing Muslims centred around a real Sufi and becoming economically independent and powerful via education is the model for Muslims everywhere including Pakistan.

This way we can reclaim the centre ground for Islamic orthodoxy [as opposed to the extreme elements of Wahabism and its corrolaries] and also become prosperous again. Insha Allah. And THEN when people see our success they will WANT to become Muslims too insha Allah...

We have to help ourselves and stop blaimin others for our problems [even though we DO have enemies but we should expect that].

Ghairat baRi cheez hai jahaan e tag o do mein...



May Allah help us!

jay #71 ``regards and best wishes to YLh with the typical ylh ending

jay pakistan,

jay sheria courts

jay jay ``

Jay:

You are sort of funny most of the time (the times when you are dead serious in your hatred to Pakistan). You are pretty pathetic when you are trying to be funny, as above. But dont let me discourage you - keep trying to lighten up and maybe you will learn how.

God has been kinder to you than the hundreds of millions of hungry, homeless souls in South Asia (they exist, believe me, although you dont see them even as you walk among them): Try to lighten up a bit and thank God that you are not among them and have a full stomach and a keyboard at your command and this might help you shed your hatred.

RSaxena #101
Our neighbours are incredibly stupid, but we are even more so. We should stop trying to convince them about Indian secularism, because finally Pakistanis personal sense of safety comes from three things:

1. Indian Hindu protestations about secularism, which is the only thing which prevents Indian Hindus from nuking Muslims in Pakistan. Indian Muslims are cannon fodder or the first line of defence for Pakistanis like ali1 and Romair who know the preservation of their own skins and their own religious places depend on `1000-years of servitude` Hindus protesting that they CAN still amicably live with Muslims. The joke is they themselves scared themselves silly with the histories they themselves wrote.

2. Ideological prostitution of Indian Muslims attempted by those like Asif and hobbyt. This security paradigm with the more religious fervor of the JI school goes this way : as long as an anti-infidel TNT fervor can be kept alive in Indian Muslims, Pakistanis, with an army of ideologues at their disposal, are safe from the same enraged unconverted Hindus.

3. New-generation patriotic fervor among Pakistanis which for survival needs a manifestation of Indian Muslim pain which must be caused by Hindus. You see people like sarwari, scout and ylh desperate to see some of this pain, pins into a voodoo doll-style.


I pity Indian Muslims. With friends like these, who needs Hindus?

Zafar #93,

I really have to admit. You are that sane Indian if ever there is one.

Without you Pakistanis would just be dismissing all our arguments as typical Hindu rantings.

An excerpt from a story in today`s Washpost website:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32657-2001Oct22.html

Meanwhile, a refugee crisis was building at Pakistan`s sealed border with Afghanistan. An Afghan man died of wounds suffered when border guards opened fire to force back up to 15,000 trapped Afghan civilians pushing and pleading for entry.

My question: Is this soul also entitled to 72 gorgeous virgins and all the booze he can handle?

Re: Asif Naqshbandi

``...rich and educated Muslims must then live together in little communities, trading with other Muslims and doing business with each other... In short you will have islands of Islam in an ocean of kufr``

Absolutely brilliant! Why did I not think of it before? We should also evolve rules on how `rich and educated Muslims who live together in little communities` should become entirely self-sufficient `villages` like that kufr Gandhi`s dream for small scale industries in India. India is becoming a mighty industrial power today because of all the cotton yarn that the `little communities` spin is in great demand worldwide and the world cannot have enough of it, and India`s little communities have an overwhelming comparitive economic advantage. These little communities would not be complete without neurologists/cardiologists/architects/ accountants, who while practising various and sundry professions, would be tied together by a common religion. And of course, we will have to ensure that the colleges and universities that impart such professional education, are also entirely segregated -- Muslim teachers for Muslim students, Hindu teachers for Hindus, Sikh teachers for Sikhs...We shall struggle hard to fight mixing of religions, but we will not allow our `little communities` to become polluted.

Mr. Naqshabandi, when do we start work on this honorable project?

RE Asif Naqshbandhi

You cannot look forward if you continuously look back to the 7th century. If your idea of economic development is a 7th century economic model, you need all the help possible from Allah.

The idea of islands/communities doing business with each other is next to impossible in today`s integrated global economy. So what are you little communities going to trade with each other: trinkets and prayer rugs? If you want to achieve economies of scale, you need to produce more and in order to achieve that, you have to deal and interact much more closely with your customers and where they live.

Religion is fine as long as it is a facet of life that provides one with morals etc. But when it takes over your life in totality, boy are you doomed to failure. All the praying on earth wont get you out of your pickle. A little more rational approach is what you guys need.

The Jihad Next Door

http://www.msnbc.com/news/645437.asp



The struggle for Kashmir helped fill the terror camps in Afghanistan—and now poses one of the most dire threats to stability in the region



By Joshua Hammer

NEWSWEEK INTERNATIONAL



Oct. 29 issue — Murad Khan’s journey from schoolboy to prisoner of war began in a dirt-poor village in Pakistan’s North-West Frontier province five years ago. At a government secondary school in Khanpur, he recalls, nearly all the boys in his class were pressured by Islamic militants to join the jihad in Indian-occupied Kashmir, where the mostly Muslim population has been waging a bloody war of independence against New Delhi since 1989. Bearded extremists often brought him and his friends to a meeting hall to watch lurid propaganda films like “Village in Flames,” depicting the alleged rapes of Kashmiri women by Indian soldiers. “It made me angry to see such things,” he says, “and the anger kept building.” Days after he turned 14, he ran away from home, signed up with the militant group Al Badr and soon found himself packed with 25 other boys in a bus with blackened windows, bound for Afghanistan.



FOR THE NEXT MONTH Murad’s home was a canvas tent he shared with dozens of aspiring guerrillas in a training camp near Khost. Rising before dawn, the teenagers prayed in the mosque, jogged in the arid hills, then devoted their afternoons to assembling and learning to shoot Kalashnikov assault rifles. In the evenings, the young recruits sat on the floor of the mosque as the camp commanders cited Quranic passages justifying global jihad. “We never saw Osama bin Laden, but we were told about him,” says Murad, a scrawny 19-year-old with jug ears and a wispy beard. “The commanders said he was a great emir, who was fighting for freedom for Muslims around the world.” Murad’s final stop before the front lines was a larger training camp known as Mansehra, set on an isolated hilltop in western Pakistan. He spent six months learning guerrilla tactics and playing brutal combat games; the climax was a course in booby traps, pipe bombs and other explosives, taught, he says, by a former officer in the Pakistani Army.

Today Murad sits in a tumbledown Indian Army camp in the village of Bandipura, within sight of the rugged Himalayan foothills where he lived in underground bunkers while fighting as a mujahedin. Last spring a radio transmission he was sending to comrades was intercepted by an Indian Army colonel in Bandipura, who over the next three months persuaded him to surrender. “One day Murad called me and said, ‘I’m coming down’,” the colonel says. Branded a traitor by his former comrades, knowing that he could be killed by his captors, Murad now dwells in a state of limbo. “He’s happy here because he knows that if he stayed in the mountains, he’d be dead,” insists the colonel, resting a hand on his frightened young prisoner. “He knows I was very close to finding him. I was almost touching his skin.”





An intensely personal conflict, Kashmir is also a front line in the war on global terror. Over the past several years this disputed territory controlled by India has become a bloody battleground for fundamentalist jihadis like Murad—and the freshest example of the kind of havoc that the nexus of Islamic extremism in Southwest Asia has spread around the world.

Just how volatile Kashmir has become was made clear earlier this month, when a four-man suicide squad attacked the State Legislature in the capital, Srinagar, killing 38 people. Jaish-e-Mohammed, a Pakistan-based militant group founded by three Pakistani radicals with close links to the Taliban, initially claimed responsibility for the strike, the deadliest in the 12-year conflict. Two weeks later Indian troops fired mortars and artillery shells at Pakistani positions across the Line of Control that divides Kashmir—the first deadly fire between the two nuclear powers in seven months. With Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf under attack for joining the U.S.-led coalition and under pressure to shore up his Islamic credentials, tensions in the region are likely to remain dangerously high.

The “Talibanization” of the Kashmiri conflict is a relatively recent phenomenon. The roots of the struggle go back to 1947, when the maharajah of Kashmir allowed troops from newly independent India to enter his state and drive out Pakistani invaders; Kashmiri leaders say India reneged on its promise of a plebiscite to determine Kashmir’s future, while India insists that the numerous state elections held since ’47 are tantamount to a referendum. In the first stage of the armed struggle, the guerrillas were almost entirely indigenous Kashmiris fighting under the banner of secular independence movements. But the Indian Army crippled those groups in the mid-1990s; in their place arose a new crop of combatants, covertly supported by Pakistan, who embraced Islamic fundamentalism and global jihad and sought to annex Indian Kashmir to Pakistan.

This new jihad was sustained by a complex mix of forces and interests. In part, Islamabad was willing to risk the world’s ire by supporting the Taliban because of the training provided to Kashmir militants in Afghanistan. The cause also unified the Pakistani elite, who might otherwise have been disaffected by the country’s social and economic failures. Many of the jihadis have links to Pakistan’s powerful religious parties and schools of Islamic learning, or madrasas.

Among them: the founders of Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, or Army of the Pious, infamous for its suicidal infiltrations of Indian Army camps by heavily armed guerrillas (known as fedayeen) disguised in military uniforms. An even bigger fish is Masood Azhar, who first came to prominence as a leader of the militant group Harkat-al-Mujahedin, which was recently banned by the Pakistani government. In 1999 hijackers seized an Indian Airways flight, diverted it to the Afghan city of Kandahar and demanded the release of three militants, including Azhar, from Indian prisons. Flown to Afghanistan, Azhar crossed freely into Pakistan and later helped form Jaish-e-Mohammad. For the past two years Azhar’s headquarters has been the Binuri madrasa in Karachi, a Wahhabi-sect academy where Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar and Osama bin Laden reportedly first met. After the suicide attack on Kashmir’s State Legislature, he fled into hiding.

Now the militants have embarked on a sometimes brutal campaign to transform Kashmir’s predominantly secular society. Weeks before the World Trade Center attacks, a previously unknown Islamic group calling itself Lashkar-e-Jabbar ordered all women to wear the all-enveloping burqa and threatened to attack those who refused. Shortly afterward three young women in the capital, including a 14-year-old girl, were splashed in the face with acid and disfigured. Over the next few days, thousands of burqas were sold to terrified women in Srinagar. (The threats have since fizzled out.) Many secular independence advocates insist that the fundamentalists don’t represent the heart of the struggle. “The Kashmiris hate India, but they are not for this Talibanization either,” says Hamida Nayeem, a professor at the University of Kashmir and a leading secessionist. “They see the rebels as their guests. Once the goal is reached, they have no role. They cannot be tolerated.”

It may not be so easy to exclude them. At the Indian Army camp in Bandipura the commander, J. K. Sharma, shows off a stack of Jaish-e-Mohammed identity cards and photos he claims were seized from dead Pakistani militants in a recent sweep. He says there are “100 foreign militants” operating in his zone, a cluster of villages 60 kilometers north of Srinagar. The leaders, he says, are almost all Pakistani.





Newsweek International October 29 Issue



For three years Murad Khan was one of those fighters. After completing his training in Mansehra camp in Pakistan in the summer of 1998, Murad traveled by bus with other guerrillas to Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistan-occupied Kashmir and a launching point for many Islamic militant groups. The mood on the journey was jubilant. “The commanders told us, ‘After Kashmir we will go to liberate Palestine’,” Murad says. In September 1998 he crossed the mountainous border for the first time—Indian Army officers say such infiltrations are often supported by cover fire from the Pakistani Army.

Murad’s assignment was to serve as a guide for “attack” squads around Bandipura, furnishing the fighters—half Pakistanis, half Indian Kashmiris—with weapons and cash and leading them to a network of caves, bunkers and safe houses. Murad claims that local agents provided him with a student ID card and even a phony father and mother, Kashmiris who could vouch for him if he were questioned. But after two years in the field, he grew disillusioned with Al Badr. After fellow guerrillas threw a grenade into a Bandipura market, killing three and injuring 16, he says, “I told the commanders that I disagreed with killing civilians, that we had a purpose and we should not diverge from it.” Soon afterward, he claims, he made up his mind to flee the mountains. (His Indian captors think that homesickness and a long-running personality clash with other Al Badr guerrillas also played a role in his surrender.)

If the United States is serious about chasing down Afghan-trained “terrorists” wherever they are, it will quickly run into struggles like these—local jihads that are influenced by the money, training and personnel coming out of Afghanistan, but which do not lend themselves to easy good-versus-evil distinctions. India wants Washington to lean hard on Pakistan to shut down training camps, end covert government support and ban the militant groups. “As soon as Pakistan cuts off the weapons and the cash to these Islamic groups, the war will finish,” insists a top Indian officer in Bandipura. But the United States is reluctant to alienate a major ally in the counterterrorism war—and doesn’t buy India’s claim that the Kashmir insurgency is strictly a terrorist movement. The Indian Army, which now has about 300,000 troops stationed in Kashmir, is widely hated by the local population, and its animosity has helped keep the indigenous struggle alive.



A recent incident in the remote village of Jagarpura explains why. Two weeks ago Indian soldiers swept through the village searching for fedayeen who had attacked a nearby base; they molested a young woman and then shot dead her husband and father-in-law in their farmhouse when they attempted to intervene. Residents say seven boys have run off to the nearby mountains in the last couple years to join Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, Al Badr and other groups and more would certainly follow. “The Army is a brutal force,” says Abdul Rashid Dar, the brother of the younger victim. “We all have the urge to pick up a gun and fight them.”

As far as Murad Khan’s father is concerned, though, it is a fight that sons like his have no business being part of. At his modest brick house with empty window frames and no electricity, the aging farmer fights back tears as he describes his five-year battle to win back his son. “He called me last year from Kashmir and said he wanted to come home but the commanders wouldn’t let him,” he says bitterly. “He said they told him he had to stay for four years or give his life.” Another of his sons considered joining the jihad, but after learning of Murad’s experience, he changed his mind. Murad would doubtless approve of the choice.





With Juliette Terzieff in Chakdara, Pakistan

If you have real player please check the following out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/panorama/latest.ram

Tells you what the moderates in Pakistan are thinking.

Also, pay particular attention to what Fareed Zakaria is saying. He is an Indian-American. Is that any wonder?

Asif Naqshbandi 106,

Kindly do not refer to `Pakistani Muslims` in your sermon. As if those who are not Muslims have less of a right to be Pakistani.

Gosh! This is the first time I have come across your post and have been reminded of how narrow Indian Muslim nationalist sprit really is. We have your kind in Pakistan too, and though I agree with some of what you say of the ``plight of Indian Muslims`` and how they should rise to the occasion and take charge of their destinies together. But such ideals appeal only ``to the ignorant and illiterate``. Why can`t you direct and wish that Indian Muslims succeeded for their own country instead of their religion? If you begin to break down the creation of a sound society on religion there will be no end to the fragmentation.

That is the problem I have with my relatives, the ones who call themselves Indians, interpret any pro-Pakistan thing as anti-Indian Muslim and are distrustful of the Indian government without even getting involved in it. We have a pretty large social circle in San Jose and have only come across one family of Indian Muslims who always complain that the top Managers are Pakistani and they are supervised and co-work by and with Hindus. Why does one have to approach everything as a double minority? Can`t it be taken as one`s right? Like Cowasjee does for example. Ever seen him appealing to the religious, communal or spiritual ideals of the Parsees in Pakistan? The focus is Pakistan and no one can dare question his being Pakistani as far as he is concerned and that is what will make the change. That is a simple opinion, I don`t wish to comment too much on Indian Muslims, and they are the least of my concerns.

Regards,

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/panorama/latest.ram

Also, would like to know if the veiled beauty on the left is really as beautiful as she sounds.

shankar #99

``My own brahmin grandma was married to my grandpa at the age of 9.``

Was your grandps also 53 when he married your 9 years of would be grandma?

Re Zafarsaab #92

I had the same doubts as you about the author`s authenticity. However, googling shows that this guy is perhaps for real.

Regards

``However, I am interested in why Indians seem so concerned about religious extremism in Pakistan, but not too concerned about the changes in their own society (which will have far larger negative and violent consequences, in my opinion).”

zafarsaab:

*But we are. And also, what happens in Pakistan also affects India, so of course we`re concerned. *

how very interesting zafarsaab

RE: Reply #: 106 Asif Naqshbandi

``Welcome bhai :-) Assalamu alaykum! Such accounts of the Indian brethrens suffering in India really moves me and makes me sad.``

Instead of being a Muslim in India, you could be:

1) A Muslim in Egypt: if you speak against the government, they threaten you with raping your female relations (and do it if you do go ahead).

2) A Muslim in Syria: if you speak against the government, your whole village could be destroyed along with 30000 occupants.

3) A Muslim in Iraq: Just ask the Kurds what happens to them if they speak out against the Government.

4) A Muslim in the Land of the Pure: you are more likely to lose your life due to your religious belief than if you`re a Muslim in India.

Of course if in the following Muslim countries you are a:

a) non-Muslim in Saudi Arabia: you cannot worship your own deities (any representations you try to bring in are confiscated at the airport itself).

b) Jew in Iran: charged with sedition and face execution for things going on in Israel.

c) Christian in Sudan: sold as a slave if you don`t lose your life.

d) Afghanistan: have your deities used for target practice or blown up; have you wear distinctive markings.

e) the Land of the Pure: subject to separate electorates (read total disenfranchisement), blasphemy charges resulting in execution.

If the so called Muslim intelligentia indulges in a self-serving medieval mindset and siege mentality described in the rest of your article, is it any wonder that the Muslim world is raging against the modern world which has no place for them?

After reading many of the interacts i decided to read the article and i am at a loss to understand what the critics are questioning exactly.

Even Sadhana, who comes across as staunchly secular is hung up on a technical point - that the author cited the NYT instead of the srikrishna report. So frigging what? There are numerous committees and commissions operating in india at any given time with any positive outcome amounting to diddley squat. The srikrishna commission was a political necessity - it was a matter of one party trying to outmaneuver another - and the report has accomplished next to nothing.

While the author at times sounds paranoid to my hindu mind, his feelings must not be discounted. There is a grave threat to secularism in india and the constitution cannot help that if the government institutions are subverted one after another. Shahid Makhfi is right to be afraid..

What Rubbish!

Incredibly sad reading. ``Maangley abandons its Muslims``:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/oct/22spec.htm

stuka

Interesting - you mean there even more right wing politics? OK let`s say there is - why would they rely on class instead of caste? with caste they imprison the mind, the soul, with class, they just dispossess worldly wealth that is not really the higher purpose in society, anyway? Right ?, wrong or way off?

Asif #106 ``Such accounts of the Indian brethrens suffering in India really moves me and makes me sad.

How about your millions of Afghan brethren who had to leave their homes and run away to other countries to escape from the misrule of your mullah brethren (aka taliban)? Or about your Pakistani brethren who cant pray in a mosque without fear of being machine-gunned by your mullah brethren? One thing is ndeniable: muslims in India are living at least as free from threats by religious extremists as muslims in Pakistan, except in Kashmir where your mullah brethren are busy fomenting violence.

Spare me your hypocritical holiness.

soysauce #121
From the article:

``Worse still is the allegation that the police plays a partisan role in further annihilating Muslims. Some years back New York Times carried a special report highlighting extracts from transcripts of Bombay police radio conversation that clearly revealed police participation in arson against the Muslims. ``

soysauce mahashay, Author mahashay is still in the allegation stage.

I posted a link to the text of the report and mentioned the movie to show thats its more than an allegation, its common knowledge in India that policemen were guilty and that some guilty policemen have even been named.

Whats the point of bringing up the communalism question and talking of green tiles instead of protesting that no guilty policman has been arrested much less convicted for his role in the riots ? )There was a single arrest only last month, 8 years after the fact). Would a Sikh talking of communalism similarly refrain from protesting that no person `known` to be guilty has been convicted for the `84 riots?

IMO, Rip Van Winkles can never be effective as activists and I donot have to prove my `secular credentials` to you(who are you anyway?) or anyone by making a show of respect where it is not deserved.

Zafar Al-Talib #92

Apparently, this article was also published in Nov 2000 on another website, as were two other articles by the same author.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/shahid3.html

`googling` as MastRam says shows he writes on archeological matters, too.

Re sarwari

``I don`t wish to comment too much on Indian Muslims, and they are the least of my concerns.``

So, whatever happened to that ummah you have expresssed so much belief in your earlier posts across numerous boards? Are Indian muslims a step or two below other muslims say from chechyna or Sudan? Are they at least a step above Indian Hindus? And if Indian muslims are the least of your comments and that you did not wish to comment on them, why then a rambling reply from you?

I think that this is a very balanced article, and any Indian ignores it only at his own peril. To enshrine secularism in the constitution is not enough. We have to constantly ensure that it is maintained in practice. The US is one of the freest places in the world, and yet it has many institutions dedicated to being vigilant in the protection of these rights. Who protests when communities are targeted in India? There are a few articles by known leftists, a few newspaper articles and then all is forgotten, or atleast ignored. Surely all is not hunky-dory!

There has been a perceptible change in the public mood and (therefore) public policy in India. Both have become more rigid of late.

-narain

Re: Sarwari #116

``...This is the first time I have come across your post and have been reminded of how narrow Indian Muslim nationalist spirit...``

Ms. Sarwari, Mr. Nashqabandi is, ahem, ur.., Pakistani.

Sarware Behan,

Please don`t gift Asif Naqshbandi to India. He is a Pakistani product through and through and India doesn`t want anything to do with him.

Please keep your filth on your side of the border.

re: Sarwari # 115

Sarwari, a good one.

No one should undermine the importance of religion. It is very important. In fact, it is so important that it is a crime to mix it up in the affair of men, in political issues of the state, or in matters of love toward one`s neighbors or toward one`s nation. Cowasjee is certainly a great Pakistani, and that makes him a fabulous human being, worthy of universal respect.

Anybody who decides to think a bit deeply and honestly can see that all these various kinds of affective ties and identities are not mutually exclusive. In fact, a harmonized acceptance and celebration of these identities is the prerequisites to the establishment of trust between any two people, to the attainment of peace at the level of any human grouping, and to the stability and progress of any nation.

So here`s three cheers for all those Pakistanis who have my admiration, affection, and love, even though we may disagree on some issues.

To live is to differ. As the cliche goes, from thesis and anti-thesis comes synthesis. No wonder, those driven to remove differences end up removing life.

One more thing, it is a pity that the Indian author is so blind; but his description of Hinduism like that of a man who has never seen a banyan tree before and knowing only the oak and the pine, finds the banyan tree incoherent.

-Arun Gupta

AL-Talib # 93

[``That’s why it is vital that the (Babri Masjid) conflict be settled in court, in accordance with the law. And that the court’s judgement (whatever it turns out to be) is enforced.``]

I am surprised that the Indian pseudo seclarists can say this with a straight face. Miyaji, your hindu fundamentalist Prime Minister has declared that the construction of ram mandir at the site of the destroyed masjid is the ``national will``. VHP has declared several times that it will build the mandir REGARDLESS of the supreme court verdict.

kuch sharam karo... you are a bigger uncle tom than uncle tom himself. Accept it... India is a country for and of the Hindu bigots.

BTW, Can you tell us for how much are the trishul bearing Taj Mahals selling in Dheli?

sadna:

Why do you get into your name-calling routine (Pukis, ignoramuses etc.) whenever an Indian muslim exposes the hideous face of Hindu India? I can say things in return that will set the greying pubic hair afire, but I `ll wait.... Gather you thoughts and type a coherent response to the author. Let us read the Hindu point of view. Ignore the Pukis for now. Your previous responses create the impression of a bleating bakri in labor pains, head butting everything that comes close.

KENYA DEFAMING ISLAM!!!!!!

Kenyans have painted their sex education vans green!!!! Can anything be more offensive to Islam?!!!

See the picture, Be shocked. Be enraged. Another conspiracy by the West/ Jews/ Buddhists/ Hindus/ animists/ Red Indians/ Eskimos to defame the Holy Prophet.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_1613000/1613648.stm

Jihadis, rise, kill, murder, be shaheed (the more the better)!

Down with Kenya.

Down with sex education.

Down with anyone who manufactures, uses, thinks of green color.

Up with Mr. Makhfi.

See how I am burning with anger at these kafirs for using green color.

Next Jihadi assault will be on trees for using green for their leaves without asking Mr. Makhfi for permission. Those leaves fall and people walk on them!!! (my heart breaks). Dirty Kufr have bribed trees.

By the same author on another Pakistani (a country whose history is considered a joke by its own historians) Website

The Perils and Pitfalls of Indian History



By Shahid Akhter Makhfi

History,” Voltaire once wrote, “is a pack of tricks we play upon the dead.” Marx reaffirmed that the tradition of the dead generation weighs like a nightmare on the brain of the living. And, just when they are in the revolutionary transformation of themselves. . . they timidly conjure up the spirits of the past to help them, they borrow their names, slogans and costumes so as to stage the new world historical scene in this venerable disguise and borrowed language.”

The Indian recipe for history is to begin with a myth, add a spoonful or two of bits and pieces of historical facts (picking up the desired ones only), steep them in folklore and allow it to simmer until it reaches boiling point.

This is the potent drink with a fairly good market, which believes in anything, and everything. Once said, it is believed and the belief is such that people may not cremate the dead for two months in the belief that the dead man is still alive but meditating, while the body in fact is decomposing.

Under the shade of such a market, there is no dearth of merchandise, as long as the marketing strategy is intact. One shouldn’t be surprised if an attempt is made to unnerve Sri Lanka one day on the simple belief that the Sri Lanka of today was precisely the place reached by legendary Ram in order to defeat Ravana. The Indian marketing strategy should deem it proper to demand that Sri Lanka be taken away from the Buddhists and given to the harbingers of Rama.

Taj Mahal has always fascinated millions, including me. Few years back, I was there admiring its beauty when I witnessed a group of holy men (holy because their skulls were shaven, they wore loin cloth and thus I presume they had renounced the world) chanting slogans in Sanskrit and attempting to place a flame on the grave of Shah Jehan, the builder of the Taj.

The Sadhus were a part of the unruly mob, which had burst into the monument wishing to capture and convert it into a temple. Armed soldiers with rapid fire guns testified to the tension. The monument of peace and love that has stood for centuries and attracted millions of visitors from all corners of the world is now under attack by the bunch who have read history emanating from the Indian shelf that it was a Hindu monument and therefore, it should be converted.

It is a moot point, as the why the Bharatiya Janta Party should have to write a new history to call Hindutva’s forces to arms. Surely its complaints about minority appeasement and live issue-anti-national tendencies, aggressions at all time, temple destroyers - should be enough to rally its votaries. The past is a powerful persuader of the righteousness of present action.

Political movements have long understood the utility of harnessing knowledge to their causes. One of the easiest ways is to appropriate the past -- rewrite history.

Stalin was successful in erasing Leon Trotsky from the annals of Russian Revolution. The Britishers insidiously divided the Indian Hindus and Muslims by introducing text books that advocated the idea that Hindus and Muslims had never lived amicably together.

The teaching of history can often become a very political affair, especially when an attempt is made to impose it by those in power. The withdrawal of textbooks prescribed by the former Bharatiya Janata Party state government is just an example in the continuing debate over how children ought to learn about India’s past.

Gross factual distortion is a matter of great concern. Apolitical howlers are as amusing as they are misleading. One such text claims that Samudragupta built the Qutab Minar ! If communal tensions are to become a part of India’s past, unprejudiced schooling is something very essential. Since in most Indian schools history is learnt by rote and such biased stories get firmly imprinted in the child’s mind.

At the close of Muslim rule, India was rich and tempting enough to invite Europeans and by the time the English chapter closed, India was sucked dry. A layman’s comparison of Turkish and English rule will dispell the erroneous belief circulated in Indian history. Even Mahatma Gandhi used to say that the British had exploited and hurt India more than the Muslim rulers. But why the change in perception today ? The Britishers are revered as the builders of Modern India, while the chief architects to lay the groundwork were the Turks.

Though the Turks were foreigners, after a generation or two they were quite Indianised. Not so with the British. The Turkish period witnessed more wars, but the wealth remained in India. Not so with the British. In fact it was the Indian wealth that paved way for the Industrial Revolution in England.

Unfortunately, the scenario is quite different in the history texts. The Ayodhya issue to today was historically solved and settled more than a decade ago. Extensive excavations were carried out at Ayodhya, specifically to examine the Rama legend, but Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) site observation notebook drew a blank. No antiquities pointing to such a temple were listed. The ASI, the government, the press, educational institutions, maintained a stony silence and for more than ten years nothing appeared in the ASI reports. A diabolical silence indeed !

The scholars have brought to light Buddhist monasteries at Ayodhya that far outnumbered the Brahmanical structures at Ayodhya in the seventh century.

However, what did strike a layman was the presence of pillars in the Babri Mosque with non-Islamic motiffs. This was not a unique feature. In the first place none of the motiffs championed the cause of Rama or Vishnu iconography. Second, a salient feature of medieval buildings was to make use of elements from other structures, collected from far and near. Did Shah Jehan not plunder the remains of Tuhglaqabad Fort in order to collect materials for Shahjehanabad ? Abdur Rahim Khane Khana’s tomb is denuded today. The entire stones were used in the make up of Safdarjung’s tomb. The most spectacular example is the Bhaskereshwara Temple in Orissa with a peculiar curvilinear tower. A pity that a pillar carrying the peaceful message of Ashoka was chiselled to make way for a huge linga and in order to incorporate this, the temple architecture had to be altered. By the logic of returns the Buddists can claim it outright. History is replete with such instances, but why to boil down on a particular cast, that too steeped in legends and myths.

The VHP through manipulation of historical research, in pursuance of its claim, has done a commendable job. Now members of the Bajrang Dal claim that they know the precise birth spot of Krishna that lies beneath the Idgah at Varanasi !

On the question of Ram temple, it seems that Ram has been monopolised by the Hindi speaking belt of North India. As regards its history the BJP leaders till recently were not even sure about the spot where Ram was born. Atal Behari Vajpayee had admitted this as early as May 17, 1989. More significantly, Advani himself was reported to have said in Bombay, ``No one can prove that it (Babri Masjid) was the birth place of Shri Ram, but he could not wait for the court verdict as he felt it was a matter of belief. Likewise the Vishwa Hindu Parishad was shy of committing itself to court verdict.

And what are the credentials of the VHP, whose leaders had signed an agreement with Home Minister, Buta Singh, specifically promising to abide by the court verdict.

A study of the Hindu history reveals that the temple worship was an alien of practice. None of the scriptures refer to them or lay on Hindus the duty of going to temple for worship of an image.

Mahabharata makes no mention of temple nor the word “Ayodhya” comes anywhere .It was more of a borrowed phenomenon from the practice of kins that people started going to temples to look at the image of diving potentate and to watch the ceremonials of his daily life, which were modelled on those of a king.

It is must unfortunate that at the heart of the problem of India today, lies a history with various twists and turns. It is reasonable to ask if the Indian historian is going to allow his discipline to be wielded like a weapon in racial, communal, class or caste wars ? It is time for them to realise and take on the role of mentors of a misguided and misinformed nation.

Source:



by courtesy & © 2000 Shahid Akhter Makhfi

sadna #126

There is something strange.

Another so called archeologist also writing on social issues!! Earlier one still has place of prominence on front page of this site (even though his article is more than 16 months old).

I also noticed a set of articles written by annother archeologist with a different name but on almost same lines. Will find the URL again and post it here. It is certainly more than a coincidence!!

Or may be, as this author finds meaning in green tiles of Delhi toilets, I am also being paranoid.

Regards

`He and I have disagreed on many things but never been disagreeable with each other. Mainly because he doesn`t lie like you do.`

Rsaxena, my dear, why are you in denial. You are the only liar on these boards, and everyone here knows this very well. On the contrary other than your small coterie bigoted friends (ilk of Gowardhan, MaheshG, Devkant, AKash etc) no one will ever dare to call me a liar atleast if they are not liars themselves...

Wanna take a vote?

I say Indians only... how about Stuka, Shammi, Zafar al Talib, Dost Mittar, Eklavya ....

Fellas do you consider me a liar?

Lying Bigots Oh Lying Bigots:

(addressed to lying bigots inc. : Gowardhan, Rsaxena, Mahesh G, Jay Thackerey)

Have you ever been to Pakistan?

-YLH

Reply Shammi, Asif # 111

[``...rich and educated Muslims must then live together in little communities, trading with other Muslims and doing business with each other... In short you will have islands of Islam in an ocean of kufr``

“Absolutely brilliant! Why did I not think of it before? We should also evolve rules on how `rich and educated Muslims who live together in little communities` should become entirely self-sufficient…These little communities would not be complete without neurologists/cardiologists/architects/ accountants, who while practising various and sundry professions, would be tied together by a common religion. And of course, we will have to ensure that the colleges and universities that impart such professional education, are also entirely segregated -- Muslim teachers for Muslim students, Hindu teachers for Hindus, Sikh teachers for Sikhs...We shall struggle hard to fight mixing of religions, but we will not allow our `little communities` to become polluted.”]

Now why does this sound so familiar, Shammiji? Did the Broederbond collectively convert to Islam? Or perhaps the Gush Emunim have seen the error of their ways and are now finally fighting their ideological battle on the side of righteousness? Asifbhai, perhaps you could explain.

Zafar

Reply Hobbyty # 104

Hobbyty

“You must know by now that I wish you no injury, yet persistently, you offer injury to all those who point the absurd proportions of the sense of injury that very significant numbers of Indian Muslims feel.”

I do recognise it, Hobbyty, but I don’t think the author of this article’s views are balanced or representative. I find some of his statements ignorant (wilfully or otherwise). Rsridhar and Sadna have made some really good points – yet NEITHER OF THEM has in any way said that Muslims in India do not suffer discrimination, and neither of them has in any way said that India does not have some way to go to rectify this. Of course the author is free to have his opinions – but I’m free to think that his opinions shape his selection of facts, rather than facts shaping his opinion. If you think that I am unfair here, please tell me why – with reference to the points I’ve raised and which Sadna and Rsridhar have raised.

“I think I understand your politics, and many times appreciate the subtlty and nuance with which you have kept some at bay - till when will you remain so close to the fence?”

What is on the two sides of the fence? I would appreciate an answer from you because this issue is really at the core of how people see the world, evaluate problems and envision solutions to these problems.

“I generally felt sad at reading this article. you must know that it is confirmation for me, but I still hold your advice from earlier conversations and renew my respect for the patience some exercise, yet is difficult for me: how much longer this walking on egg shells? when will it be OK to call a spade a spade? when will enough be enough? when will someone stand up to say ``no more``?”

Hobbyty, it’s perfectly valid for you to say that your opinion is such and such, and that you find the author of this article more believable than other people. But don’t you think it’s a little unfair to discount all the questions people raise about the article without looking at the answers?

I don’t think that the author CAN believably answer the questions that have been raised. And that this explains his total absence from the board. Which says a lot about his confidence in his ability to defend his view.

Elections will show what political ideology sells in India. It’s apparent which one sells on Chowk.

Salaaams,

Zafar

Reply Hobbyty # 104

Hobbyty

“You must know by now that I wish you no injury, yet persistently, you offer injury to all those who point the absurd proportions of the sense of injury that very significant numbers of Indian Muslims feel.”

I do recognise it, Hobbyty, but I don’t think the author of this article’s views are balanced or representative. I find some of his statements ignorant (wilfully or otherwise). Rsridhar and Sadna have made some really good points – yet NEITHER OF THEM has in any way said that Muslims in India do not suffer discrimination, and neither of them has in any way said that India does not have some way to go to rectify this. Of course the author is free to have his opinions – but I’m free to think that his opinions shape his selection of facts, rather than facts shaping his opinion. If you think that I am unfair here, please tell me why – with reference to the points I’ve raised and which Sadna and Rsridhar have raised.

“I think I understand your politics, and many times appreciate the subtlty and nuance with which you have kept some at bay - till when will you remain so close to the fence?”

What is on the two sides of the fence? I would appreciate an answer from you because this issue is really at the core of how people see the world, evaluate problems and envision solutions to these problems.

“I generally felt sad at reading this article. you must know that it is confirmation for me, but I still hold your advice from earlier conversations and renew my respect for the patience some exercise, yet is difficult for me: how much longer this walking on egg shells? when will it be OK to call a spade a spade? when will enough be enough? when will someone stand up to say ``no more``?”

Hobbyty, it’s perfectly valid for you to say that your opinion is such and such, and that you find the author of this article more believable than other people. But don’t you think it’s a little unfair to discount all the questions people raise about the article without looking at the answers?

I don’t think that the author CAN believably answer the questions that have been raised. And that this explains his total absence from the board. Which says a lot about his confidence in his ability to defend his view. Elections will show what political ideology sells in India. It’s apparent which one sells on Chowk.

Salaaams,

Zafar

I agree with author on some things that he wrote. To some extent this is true. But overall I think the author is someone who is a religious person and is cannot think beyond religion. Its unwise to blame it all on Hinduism. I am totally against all kinds of religions as I feel there is no place for religion in today`s world and it can only add to problems of that are faced by world today. Be it Hinduism or Islam or any other religion. Society will change ...maybe after few hundred years.

Why not is there a place for religion? Good question.

Because relgion was a necessity when people were uncivilized and needed something to police them.

People needed to know whats wrong and whats right. They needed answers to the questions that nature posed to them. And as they did not know answers they put it on something called `God`. Without going further into this I would stick to the point that I want to make.

Its not that Islam is great and Hinduism is bad or Budhism is perfect. Its the people who make it.

Religion itself gets defined over peoriod of time depending upon its interpretation by different people at different times.

Its stupid to compare things that are attributes of people (like ignorance, superstition, false sense of superiority etc) to religion.

Indian society as it is today needs lots of reforms and one of them is necessarily making people move away from religion and move more towards morals. I wish if people spend as much time telling their children whats wrong and whats right as they spend on telling them what lord Rama (Some small time prince made God by people who wrote about him at the time when people traded using grain or goods) did or what Mohammad (some 6th - 7th century wise man who was definitly wise and intelligent by the standard of that time but we should realize that things written by someone in 7th century cannot be applied today) said.

People need to be taught to improve and contribute to the civilization instead of looking in past for every answer. If our ancestors had done so we still would have been hunting animals and eating grass.

Reply Stuka # 102

“More than caste, religion etc, the bedrock of India is the class system.”

Wise words.

“The lumpens of Hindutva will never be allowed real power.”

To some extent I believe that sections of the elite have tried to Hindutva as their route to power – and now find that they are riding the tiger. Hindutva as an exclusionary ideology will not be stopped by the elites, but by the support of other ideologies by the janatha.

Zafar

Reply Shah # 89

“You think muslims dont have INTROSPECTION.You have to study islam more than what they did not allowed you to study in India purposely.”

Lajwanti etc.

Please show me ONE POST from you which is introspective and self searching when discussing something religious or spritual. Show me JUST ONE.

I stand my statement that when Muslim’s first reaction to events like 9-11 is introspection and self-searching (as opposed to frantically trying to pin the blame on Mossad, RAW, Julia Roberts, etc.) then the Islamic Renaissance will have begun.

Zafar

Reply Sigalph # 87

“Now I am lost. What Muslims had to `leave` because of Bengali Muslims?”

Biharis? Perhaps this gentleman is from that group of people?

Reply Sadna # 86

“The second part of the complete reality towards which we Hindus are working is that PAKISTANIS will be terrorized, humiliated, brutalized and marginalized also. And on that part of the program, both RSS-types and liberal Hindus have exactly the same views and no one-man commission or paper reports will come to your rescue. I have tried to warn you about it repeatedly, but you are like a stuck record on Indian Muslims.”

Sadna, humour is wasted on idiots. If they had the aql to comprehend that, they wouldn’t be thinking the way they do, now would they?

Reply Sadna # 85

“I pity those Indians who consider these people from Pukistan to be their spokesmen.”

Not even that buffoon Bukhari does that.

Imagine this ad’ in the work wanted section of your local newspaper: spokespeople urgently seeking janatha to represent. Must be unable to speak on their own behalf and willing to be stalking horses for unpadh ideologies. Conditions apply. The braindead are encouraged to apply.

Re: hobbyty #103

``It was very interesting reading your post. I am struck that you saw Muslim college students wanting to go to the Middle East. Was this becausing of better opportunities?, then why not go to America? or was it that they did not see a future for themselves in India? And was this ``their`` mistake?``

``Their`` Mistake, was giving up even before they tried . i also know of many muslims who tried and by the grace of Allah , they are very successful .

i will tell you a real story about a person i know . During his late school days he came under the influence of some fanatics and wanted to go to Afghanistan to fight . he almost did but his parents got to know of it and somehow stopped him . After that his family and friends helped him understand his mistake and asked him to learn more about islam . He studied islam and also did his engineering and then went on to IIT Delhi for his Mtech . In IIT , his professors were very impressed by him and nicknamed him ``Abul Kalam Jr`` . Btw he is also a Hafiz ul Quran(one who knows the Holy Quran by heart ) . Needless to say , he is very much successful .

Asif,

I take my words back... with people like Sadna and Rsaxena, I can understand where you are comming from...I have to say Sadna`s post was the worst piece of her toxins I have seen yet.

Aisha

Sigalph 235,

When `serious people` like you respond to my typical ylh/paki bashing, it puts me in a difficult position. In any case the para you quoted is alleged to be the `words` of YLH with me providing the key strokes. I usually do not criticise the religion, but I am severe with its manifestation in pakistan.

Having grown up in a muslim majority area in kerala, with a muslim as my late fathers bussiness partner for more than forty years, with a muslim as my best friend for more than thirty years, I know what a keralite is and what islam means to him.

In conclusion let me say, islam like any religion, like any book is intangible, and what we can see and react to is the manifestation of it, and what any one can see in pakistan at the instituional level is disgusting. This has nothing to do with pakistanis at an individual level, except for asif naqbandi, i am suspecious of that chappie, I have no hesitation what so ever to invite any of chowk pakistanis as a honoured guest.

regards and best wishes.

jayaprakash

Re: Zafar

i am very new to chowk and i got this impressions from some of his postings .

At LAST (!!!) battle is joined over definitions of the Indian Muslim community. I vote (obviously) for Shabana. What do other Indian Muslims think? What about Pakistani Muslims? If you had to chose whom would you vote for?

Tehelka se:

http://www.tehelka.com/channels/currentaffairs/2001/oct/22/ca102201imam.htm

Imam Bukhari vs Shabana Azmi:

who represents the Indian Muslim?

Zafar Agha writes about the average Indian Muslim - deprived of a voice and typecast in a patently unfair manner by the media and majority communalists, who pick up the rabblerousing Imam Bukhari rhetoric more readily than the voices of sanity in the community

New Delhi, October 22

Who represents Muslims in this country: Shahi Imam Maulana Abdullah Bukhari or famous film personality Shabana Azmi? There is, of course, no parallel between the two. The Shahi Imam is the classic rabblerouser - a bearded Muslim cleric, who uses the pulpit to rouse Muslim passions along communal lines. Imam Bukhari is known for issuing fatwas at the drop of a hat. Be it the war in Afghanistan, or the issue of rights for women divorcees, the Shahi Imam calls to Muslims, asking them to stand up in defence of Islam.

Is Bukhari the classic Muslim, necessarily accepted as the representative of the Muslim community in India? Or should Shabana Azmi be the one counted as among the key voices of the Muslim community? Azmi is no stereotypical Muslim. She wears a bindi on her forehead and does not cover her head in the traditional Muslim fashion. Shabana is an out-and-out liberal, who hails from the Left-leaning family of poet Kaifi Azmi. She vocally supports reforms for Muslim women, and vehemently fights all shades of fundamentalism - be it the Hindutva variety or Muslim fanaticism. Does this background qualify or disqualify her as representative of the Muslim voice on a sensitive issue, like the Afghan war?

This question is at the centre of a huge media debate. Imam Bukhari refuses to count Shabana as a Muslim voice at all, and Shabana blames the media for building fanatics like Bukhari as the only Muslim voice. ``It is a huge community, where you have moderates, you have fanatics, you have all shades of opinion. How can you take a voice of a person like Imam Bukhari, and paint it as the community voice?`` an angry Shabana asked the other day. ``How can an actress be representative of Muslims,`` retorted Imam Bukhari, to Shabana`s objection. So who is the classical Indian Muslim voice: a traditional cleric, or a moderate balanced Muslim?

Neither of the two, I would say. Fanatics like Imam Bukhari are an opportunist lot that cash in on Muslim sentiments for their own ends. The liberal-moderate voices, like Shabana Azmi, are too engrossed in their own worlds, standing up only once in a while to differ with clerics like Bukhari. They are but an occasional event in the world of the common Indian Muslim.

The average Indian Muslim world is abnormal - one that does not fit into any stereotype. They live and struggle for daily survival, like every other community. Like every Indian, they work to earn their bread; they face life as anyone would face it. In the secular context of survival, they need no cleric or Shabana Azmi to speak on their behalf.

The world of the Indian Muslim also involves the secular process of choosing a representative to speak for him/her in legislatures. A look at the Muslim voting pattern until the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) took centrestage, would show that the representative of the Muslim has largely been the same as that of the majority community, the Hindus. Both Indian Hindus, as well as Indian Muslims, were largely voting for the Congress until 1977.

The post-emergency 1977 general elections were a watershed in Indian parliamentary history, when both Hindus and Muslims of north India together threw the Congress out of power, and attempted to weave an alternative to the Congress. One can, therefore, assume that secular political parties represented the secular-political Muslim community, just as much as they represented any other community.

Even beyond 1977, both the Hindus and the Muslims had been choosing identical political representatives for their secular concerns. In 1980, for instance, the average Indian voter of north India, irrespective of the religious community, was disillusioned with the Janata Party, and went back to the Congress, reposing faith in Indira Gandhi. Once again, in 1989, when V P Singh rode to power with his Janata Dal platform, the average Muslim voted for V P Singh, just as the Hindus did. So much so that Muslim leader Shahabuddin, with his communal Insaf Party, failed to win even his own parliamentary seat in 1989.

Even in the midst of the Ram temple-Babri mosque controversy, Indian Muslims looked to V P Singh, Mulayam Singh Yadav, Kashi Ram and Laloo Prasad Yadav as their leaders, rather than voting for a Muslim League-type communal political party. Ironically, the educated Hindu middleclass shifted loyalty to the Hindutva brand of politics, while the average Indian Muslim stuck to secular parties, despite facing the worst communal onslaught in post-partition Indian history. In secular terms and concerns, therefore, Sonia Gandhi, Jyoti Basu, Mulayam Singh Yadav or Laloo Prasad Yadav are as much Muslim voices, as they are Hindu voices.

Differences arise only when the Indian Muslim is facing a crisis - like demolition of the Babri mosque, the issue of personal laws, the status of the Urdu language, or when s/he is discriminated against in jobs for being a Muslim. These moments of identity crisis bring us back to our original question - who represents Muslim concerns in these situations: an Imam Bukhari or a Shabana Azmi?

Ironically, Muslims have not had the luxury of choice in these situations. Being in minority, they suffer, not unnaturally, from siege psychosis. At the end of the day, it cannot be refuted that riots do take place in this country, and that it is largely Muslims who die in communal riots. So, in the moments of identity crisis, leaders like Imam Bukhari step in and cash in on the Muslim sense of insecurity, while moderates like Shabana Azmi are pushed to the margins.

The media, as is its wont, laps up hot copy. People like Bukhari, therefore, make it to the headlines, provoking others like them to react. This, of course, goes to generate more interesting copy. In the bargain, Muslims are stereotyped as a fanatic community that only listens to clerics like Bukhari, and loves terrorists like Osama bin Laden. We have a situation where a person like Shabana Azmi has to fight to say: I am no Bukhari, but I am a Muslim; why don`t you listen to me!

Even in this debate, though, the voice of the average Muslim does not count. Nobody cares for the fact that nowhere in India have Indian Muslims taken to the streets in solidarity with Osama bin Laden. Hindu communalists pick up one statement by Imam Bukhari, asking Muslims to rise in jihad for Osama, to label the entire community as inherently terrorist.

Who could correct this perception? The media? No, the media has no time for corrections. It just reports. But it needs to be said that as Bajrang Dal leader Vinay Katiyar, with his fanatic statements, cannot be the voice of the Hindu community, so Imam Bukhari does not speak for the entire Indian Muslim community.

Indian Muslims are caught in a communal bind - the Bukharis speak on behalf of them, and the majority communalists lap it up. The Katiyars thrive on the Bukharis. Perhaps, the need of the hour is that more Shabanas among the Muslims speak up, breaking the stereotype of the fanatic Muslim, led by a ranting cleric.



[The actual incident:]

From The Pioneer

http://www.dailypioneer.com/secon2.asp?cat= story7&d=FRONT_PAGE



The `nachne gaane wali...` and Shahi Imam

Preeti John/New Delhi

Reporter: ``Actually this is about the episode about the Shahi Imam on We the People...``

Shabana Azmi: What episode?``Reporter: ``The things he said to you about you...``



Shabana: ``come on! say it. Repeat what he said. Why are you so apologetic about it?``

Reporter: ``um.... naachne... gaane wali... tawaif.``

This is what an angry Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid bellowed and insisted on standing by during Barkha Dutt`s We the People programme on Sunday.

In uttering such unwarranted abuses relayed nationwide to over 5 million shocked homes, this self-styled religious leader of the Muslims raised the hackles of not only the Muslims among the audiences, but also presenter Barkha Dutt. She conveyed the anger of the audience to him. She gave him the option to apologise. And when he said the question of an apology does not arise, he was taken off the programme.

In the aired version the ``tawaif`` bit was beeped out to maintain the sensibilities of the nation. But what followed actually between breaks and what was not aired was a spontaneous outrage from the programme guests. They chanted ``shame, shame``, they went up to Shabana to apologise on behalf of the Imam and the actress did manage to put up a brave front after the initial shock.

The unwarranted remark by Imam Bukhari came in response to a pertinent question from Shabana. She had asked him if he has issued a fatwa to all Muslims to prepare for jehad, ``why don`t you go to Kandahar and start the process. This would take away our troubles too,`` she told him during a video conferencing sequence on the subject Why the voice of liberal Muslims goes unheard``.

His response was: ``Main naachne gaane wali tawaifon ke sawalon ka jawab nahin dena chahta hoon.``

Shabana is a woman offended though she prefers not to get after the abuse heaped on her. When contacted by the Pioneer, the actress-activist said: ``poor fellow. It shows him for who he is. I do not want to say anything further on this issue.``

The feisty actress, who was earlier in fundmentalist bad books for getting a peck on the cheek from Nelson Mandela and her role in Fire, says the episode reveals the Imam`s attitude towards artistes and those who challenge his view.

Back from his evening namaz on monday, an unrepentant Bukhari banged the phone down twice on the reporter before telling her curtly: ``Maine sahi bola. Aapne suna nahi usne kis lehze mein humse baat kari.`` He refused to answer further questions, saying it was beneath his dignity to talk about ``aisi aurat.``

Bukhari may be unrepentant, but the Muslim community is reeling under the insult that came from within. Sayeda Hameed, convenor of the Muslim Women`s Forum, was the first to rush to Shabana in the programme break and express her shame over such a blatant abuse.

Ms Hameed said,`` though Islam has given a high status to women, it is such attitudes which have give it an unequal gender image internationally.`` For anchorwoman Barkha Dutt ``it was the most difficult of situations to handle. It has never got so personal before,`` she said, adding, ``as an anchor I have to be neutral and also maintain a certain level of decency.``

So, after the first round live on TV, the main protagonists are keeping a low profile. But for the Imam who once again banged down the phone on the query: ``What if you are sued?``

xxabbu # 64

``I have green tiles in my bathroon, and the pot is also green. Is that real bad?``

As long as the sh!t is anything BUT green you

are all right.Trust me:))))

Regards.

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Or is it all just too close to the bone?

From rediff:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/oct/22spec.htm



The Rediff Special/Yogesh Pawar



If fear had a face, it could be Razia`s. This five-year-old resident of Maangley village in Shirala tehsil (block) of Sangli district in western Maharashtra keeps tugging at her freshly pierced nose-ring. The subdued pain, perhaps, helps her deflect her attention from the gruesome reality around.

On October 9, her 70-year-old grandfather, Zainuddin Sutar, was burnt alive by a mob of 150 men from the same village in the family-owned sawmill. ``She hasn`t spoken since. She was very close to him,`` says Razia`s father Akhlak Sutar (32).

Trouble first came calling on this village of 35,000 on August 30 following the desecration of a Ganesh idol kept at the local taalim (rural gymnasium with a wrestling pit).

On September 2, police picked up local wrestler Yunus Mussa Sheikh despite protests from the family that he didn`t have the keys to the taalim and thus could not have been involved in the act. ``All three boys who have the keys to the gym are Hindus,`` said Yunus`s childhood friend and neighbour Vishal Suryawanshi.

Sheikh`s arrest strained relations between the two communities. Stray incidents of stone-pelting followed. The target every time was Muslim houses.

Curfew was imposed in the village under section 141 of the IPC and additional forces were deployed. The curfew was relaxed after a couple of days and a peace committee was constituted. Some 70 villagers were picked up for rioting. All but two of them were soon out on bail.

For some reason, not one Muslim found representation on the peace committee. Assistant Police Inspector S Katke, who oversaw the formation of the committee, told rediff.com: ``We left it to the villagers... none from among the Muslims volunteered to be on the committee.``

While the police claim that calm was restored in the village after the constitution of the peace committee, that is not what actually happened.

A gram sabha (a gathering of male heads of all families in the village) was called on September 8 at the village Datta Mandir to discuss the desecration.

Muslim families remember how a mediæval-style town crier went around announcing that it was incumbent on all adult Muslim males to attend. ``We were asked to change from our traditional skullcaps to phetas and shave off our beards before we entered the temple,`` recounted Rafique Sayyed, who, along with seven others, followed the dictate.

Nine Muslims, who came to the temple unshaven and without the recommended change of attire, were taken to a barber and forcibly made to undergo a shave. The sabha later decreed that Yunus Sheikh`s family would have to leave the village within a week.

Dr Mahadeo Bapa, a local doctor who chaired the sabha, claims the Sheikhs volunteered to leave the village. ``We were touched. The meeting ended with the Hindus honouring the Muslims with turban lengths and hugs,`` he told rediff.com ``We even promised to give the Sheikhs a formal farewell.``

While the 40-odd Muslim families in the village put up with this, one youth, Riyaz Sutar (25), while visiting relatives in Mahad in Raigad district, sent a complaint to the state Minorities Commission in Bombay.

News of the arrival of the commission`s team in the nearby district town of Sangli angered the Hindus in the village.

The commission`s chairman, Ameen Khandwani, led a fact-finding team to Maangley. ``We were told that the situation could worsen if we conducted the inquiry in the village and we decided to summon those whom we wanted to meet to Sangli,`` Khandwani explained. He denied that this was done to get only the Muslim side of the story, as is being alleged by Hindus.

Interestingly, after several witnesses corroborated Riyaz Sutar`s complaint, a letter was given to the commission signed by Muslims denying that anything had happened in the village.

Probably scared of retaliation, the Muslims in the village took the same stand initially during our visit. Only after being assured that we had not been sent by the police did they open up.

``We have no one to speak for us,`` wept Salim Sheikh. ``If the police can ill-treat you [both I and photographer Jewella Miranda were detained and grilled for over two hours by the police before we were allowed to speak to the villagers], imagine our plight.``

Salim Sheikh said that even the local masjid is now out of bounds for them. ``With so much trouble, who will stick his neck out by wanting to go there to pray?`` he said.

On October 9, a canard provided the spark that caused this inflammable situation to explode. While the source remains unknown, the canard said: ``The government has prevailed upon the police to go by the Minority Commission`s findings. While Hindus involved in stone-throwing are going to be picked up, Yunus Sheikh will be set free.``

The police had reduced security only a day before. The deputy superintendent of police (Shirala) claimed this was done because there were no violent incidents after the curfew was relaxed.

But in the night of October 9, over 3,000 men armed with swords, staves and torches gathered at the village ground raising provocative slogans. They then went on to systematically burn down every shop and establishment owned by Muslims in the village. They even tried to break into the Sheikh residence, where two constables were on duty.

The constables were attacked, but when one of them fired in the air with his gun, the mob moved towards the sawmill and timber shop owned by the Sutars. Septuagenarian Zainuddin Sutar, who used to sleep in the shop, came out to plead with the mob. But he was bodily thrown into a bonfire made of the timber stored in the mill.

``We could hear his cries,`` says Riyaz Ahmed, 24. ``But going out to help him would have been suicidal.`` Ahmed`s family is contemplating leaving the village. ``We have nothing left. What will my family eat?`` His voice choking, he leaves the room abruptly.

Ahmed`s neighbour Abbas Alam Sheikh has abandoned his house and is living with relatives in Karad, a nearby town. The tractor and a Hero Honda bike the family owned have been left behind.

The Minorities Commission, in its report to the state government, has passed strictures against the police and accused the law enforcers of having a ``communal bend of mind``. The commission also believes that Yunus Mussa Sheikh was picked up without any proof of his involvement in the desecration of the idol.

But Hindus in the village believe the commission is siding with the Muslims because that is the politically correct thing to do.

``Where was the government and the police when we made a complaint about the desecration?`` retorted Parshuram Prahlad Ankush Patil, 38. ``It took them five days to pick up the accused. And when one Muslim makes a complaint to the Minorities Commission they come in their red-Klamex cars and try to teach us secularism. Do you call this justice?``

The defiant man added, ``It was this attitude of humbling us in front of the Muslims, which saw this eruption. If there is anyone to blame for whatever happened it is Yunus Sheikh, Riyaz Sutar and the Minorities Commission.``

Social Welfare Minister Jaywant Gangaram Awale, guardian for Sangli district, argued that the media would only feed the fire by reporting such events. ``The district collector and the superintendent of police have been in touch with me,`` he said. ``I could not find the time to visit the village owing to my busy schedule, but I will definitely go in a day or two.``

Sangli Collector Hanumant Pawar too `advised` us to leave the villagers alone. ``We are trying to take care of it,`` he claimed. ``Involving the media can only worsen the situation. Things are under control.``

Reassuring words for the authorities, but not enough to calm the frayed nerves of Maangley`s Muslims. ``Even our children are not spared. They are told they belong to Pakistan,`` Jubeda Rizvi told us. ``I will not send my son Hussain back to school. Who knows? Anything can happen in this kind of atmosphere.``

If Mr. Makhfi is an Indian he has made India proud by being the only featured writer on an anti India website.

Question is is he Indian? First I thought sadna was paranoid. Now, she may be right.

Next we will get articles from Nasim Zehra living in Chandigarh.

Zafar #147, friend #137 gowardhan #136

Mr Makhfi seems bonafide, at least for the last few years. I found his other articles (one on Ayodhya another on Kashmir)having valid points of view except for his abysmal ignorance of Hinduism and Hindu religious point of view. As friend says, well whats new?

`` A study of the Hindu history reveals that the temple worship was an alien of practice. None of the scriptures refer to them or lay on Hindus the duty of going to temple for worship of an image.``

Re the Kashmir article, he seemed to espouse a pro-Pakistani view, not necessarily a pro-Kashmiri one, definately an anti-India view.

I donot agree with him, but well, hsi views are valid if biased views.

Its in this article that he could have made valid points by being more authentic and factual. Maybe the main reason is that he was writing not for an Indian audience or fellow Indian Muslims, but for a website(Media Monitors Network) with a worldwide(maybe mostly Pakistani) audience where there is no percentage in espousing balanced views about India, which is not a Muslim-majority country and hence can be nothing but the enemy.

So I`ll repeat what I said earlier, the larger agendas in operation or ideologies of hatred including Hindutva and Pukis and the worldwide sense of disenfranchisement among Muslims are preventing objective and factual airing of Indian Muslim problems, even by some Indian Muslims.

If the author were interacting, we could ask him about it ..

ali1 #133
pl. pl can I be coherent? The way Pukis have been going into Afghanistan and killing Afghans of the wrong color of turban in their thousands for the last 5-10 years, thats what we Hindus plan for Pukistan.

Zafar #156
mithuna posted that earlier and I found this incident totally pathetic and tragic. Firstly, the local community not being impartial in assigning blame. Secondly, asking the Muslims to shave their beards as a condition for compromise?? What sort of debasement is that. Thirdly going on a rampage after the Minorities Commission stepped into the picture.. I wonder what lessons if any, are being learnt for the future by all institutions involved.

This is the sort of thing which must get indepth coverage on Indian TV and discussed in all its aspects, without inflaming passions further ofcourse.

Sadna:

“This leads me to believe that the author cannot have been in India for very long(if he is in India at all), he seems to have recently migrated(if at all) to India from a country which doenot report Indian news in any authentic way and bans Indian movies. Now which country can that be? Let me think.”

…please, let’s get one thing straight….indian movies are NOT banned in pakistan…..granted, they aren’t allowed to be showed in cinemas…(although, i recently read an article where this idea was being floated around….) but they are not banned….go to any music shop….75% of the times they’ll have music from indian movies blaring at earsplitting levels…..not to mention walls plastered with posters of the latest bollywood releases….

….and sadna, yes the biased, prejudiced and bigoted pakistani media is incomparable to the just, impartial and equitable indian media…the greatest thing since velcro….sliced bread even, right?

Reply Gowardhan # 134

“Next Jihadi assault will be on trees for using green for their leaves without asking Mr. Makhfi for permission. Those leaves fall and people walk on them!!! (my heart breaks). Dirty Kufr have bribed trees.”

What next, war on spinach? I don’t think the Punjabis among us will stand for that.

(Btw, have you warned Ally McBoofoo that his use of green – that colour again! – vegetables to adorn his verbal abuse of chowkistas is bound to get him into trouble with his country’s Mullahlog. – and they already don’t like him because of his name, taubah…)

Reply Ali1 # 133

“I am surprised that the Indian pseudo seclarists can say this with a straight face. Miyaji, your hindu fundamentalist Prime Minister has declared that the construction of ram mandir at the site of the destroyed masjid is the ``national will``. VHP has declared several times that it will build the mandir REGARDLESS of the supreme court verdict.”

Yeah yeah yeah Ally McBoofoo, but then tell me: why isn’t a temple built on the site yet? It’s been about ten years since the masjid was knocked down by goons – if the Indian Government doesn’t give a toss about operating within the law why isn’t there a Ram Mandir there NOW?

Kya kaha? Trying to change the subject? Hoping that hiding behind a gaali will work?

No, I didn’t think you were honest enough to answer the question.

tahmed 100,

I am one of the few on chowk directly affected by the WTC attack, I am fired by morgan stanley, nearly half of our fleet are on the ground, and who needs an engine specialist when the engines are not running, and th silly bas/tards know that I have no where to go.

In situation like this a typical pakistani would have cited all his direct experience and made a bafoon of himself on chowk, like my friend ramair based on the first hand knowledge.

But in any case it doent make any damn difference, job, no-job, life death, poverty hunger, life is a mystery.

But jihad is no mystery

Narain,

Balanced? How can the article be balanced when it finds anti-Islam conspiracy in green tiles being used in Delhi toilets.

Hey, I finally got through the article.

It wasn`t as bad as I thought.

Zafar #156,

Such incidents are too frequent to be discounted. This is just one of the many things where India is found lacking.

The biggest hurdle in redressing is the complete apathy of Indians.

If all of us got together and forced the govt to take the appropriate steps why can`t such situations be prevented?

Mind you, this is not just limited to Hindu-Muslim issues.

Zafar:

``To some extent I believe that sections of the elite have tried to Hindutva as their route to power – and now find that they are riding the tiger. ``

Oh Yes, most definitely. The route yes, but will the elites allow the destination of Hindutva? I don`t think so. Again just an opinion, and I may be wrong.

Regarding the incident you posted, I was shocked. Shocked because it happened in Maharashtra, a prosperous and progressive state. This is something I thought happened only in the cow belt.

This is when I most feel useless, sitting on my sofa, pontificating about incidents actually affecting people in India. The only thing I can think of is involvement of NGOs, and major PR and propaganda campaigns. At this point the Hindutva brigade dominates the consciousness of the middle class, and yet the beginnings of unease are already there. I, a past and present BJP supporter, am already feeling uncomfortable with their domestic agenda, though I want a continuation of their pro-American foreign policy agenda. I am sure there are others who are equally disgusted. Public Relations and advertising are powerful mediums, and can change the mood of a country. For example, look at the powerful message generated by the ``I am an American`` ad. Ofcourse, this is a short term solution, and the long term would be to have Muslim technocrats, not the Imam Bukharis, speak for the Muslims. People who are successful in their fields, people like Afsir Karim, and Aziz Premji. India needs to be reminded of the sacrifice of Abdul Hamid all over again. The Hindus have no monopoly on patriotism, and that message needs to be sent out.

Sarwari:

``. Why can`t you direct and wish that Indian Muslims succeeded for their own country instead of their religion? If you begin to break down the creation of a sound society on religion there will be no end to the fragmentation.``

Hmmm, I guess there is more to you than meets the eye.

#125 Sadhana

``who are you anyway?``

Agent S, don`t you remember me? I`m ZX3, 3rd row center in the year book picture, looking very much like an ISI double agent.

Seriously, you could have simply pointed out that the charges that the author makes are genuine and that he could have bolstered his case citing an indian source rather than the NYT. Instead you had to malign him by implying that he really is a pakistani (post # 50 something).

If the reaction of a self-professed secularist is to attack the messenger then indian secularism doesn`t have very much going for it. The only consolation is that real people seem wedded to secularism more strongly than cyber characters.

Zafar

Which points in particular are you refering to with reference to Sadna and Rsridhar? The Srikrishna report not being included?, the nationality of the author being challenged?

Yes both claim there are problems - but problems exist evrywhere and this is not what I am suggesting is the problem - it is the magnitude of the problem, that I have a problem with - Yes, poorly worded. Rsridhar says that Muslims can earn the gratitude of Hindus if they let them have the Babri? In other words, without evidence, admit they are in error - and the the implications for the next demand? The Hindu God is more valid than a Masjid? After all muslims are not really indian or they did actually steal the land, or that only they did, rape and pillage? Cuz you do realize the demands will not end just with this Babri business, do you not? Earn their gratitude? while they write a history in which Muslims are foreigners? Invaders? Are your Father, mother and their parents, Turks??? Do you look like a Turk?? TNT was a conspiracy against the great Hindu nation and Pakistan is an abomination??? No such thing as a great Muslim nation in India?? No such thing as Muslim culture in India?? Islam in India is expected to be responsible for the extreme or unpopular ideas or acts, is Hinduism responsible for Shiv Sena, RSS, Bajrang Dal, etc?? Do newspapers reveal this? Islam, the face of terror! but the demolition of the Babri, an abberation? an act by a handful of extremist? imagine Maulana Fazul Rahman winning an election on a platform that call for the destruction of some temple, is actually elected and appointed to the second most powerful post in government. Well, sure, it could happen.

Has any Indian Muslim had the cojones to say that Hindus could earn the gratitude of Muslims if they pulled out of Kashmir, and then did X and Y and Z?

``What is on the two sides of the fence? I would appreciate an answer from you because this issue is really at the core of how people see the world, evaluate problems and envision solutions to these problems.``

The fence is the divide between a agreement as what the problems are and what mechanism can legitimately solve those problems and a disagreement about what the problems are and an insistence that they be solved in only one particular way. When I say to you till how long will you remain close to the fence, I want to pose to you, till how long will you keep your eyes closed to the proportions, the magnitude of the problem. You see, Pakistan, plays no role in this, from my conversations with Indian Muslims, I sense a growing awareness that while they cannot be Pakistanis, they are becoming radicalized and are open to the realization that the India is a large territory which can make room for more than one Muslim polity. Trust me that I realize you are not on this kind of course, yet you remain unwilling to call a spade a spade - and it only this, this confrontation, however one chooses to define the confrontation, either electoral, or awareness raising, something that will allow the nation to take a breath and realize the danger of Hindu nationalism - after all, If Hindu nationalism is a valid commodity, why aren`t the nationalism of non-Hindus valid? Courts of Law? How long has the babri case been in court? Justice delayed is Justice denied??? This not about individual Hindus or individual Muslims, but rather about a ideological movement which is determined to stamp a Hindu identity upon India, now you are right that this the business of Indians, but please, please do not throw the rubbish about pluralistic , unique definition of secular democracy at us - it`s an insult to persons intelligence - by all means if that paradigm finds resonance or that ideal holds attraction, who are we in Pakistan to say, that is not valid, for you, just don`t tell us that is true for us as well. After all why is Ok to ban SIMI but not any Hindu organization involved in inciting communalism? How secular is a government that wages a civil war aginst persons who choose to define their movement in religious terms? - Again, don`t get me wrong, why would a movement calling itself Islamic invoke such wrath in a supposedly ``secular`` polity? while movements that promote hindu values and identity provoke no such reflex?

Sadna has accused Asif and myself of attempting to bind Indian muslims in Ideological prostitution, you may even agree with this objectionable notion. Yet to say that unrest or an alienation among Muslims in India does not play into the hands of some in Pakistan would be less than truthful, however; this point of view completely disregards any sense of religious affinity and concern, it assumes all pakistani muslims who posit an opinion have nothing but Machiavellian motives. On the other hand, you are quite correct in saying that Pakistan as a whole cannot claim the right to speak for Muslims of India, however; it deny affinities is to deny reality.

``But don’t you think it’s a little unfair to discount all the questions people raise about the article without looking at the answers?``

No I do not discount that questions are genuine concerns or that the answers come from an equally genuine understanding.

``I don’t think that the author CAN believably answer the questions that have been raised. And that this explains his total absence from the board. Which says a lot about his confidence in his ability to defend his view. Elections will show what political ideology sells in India. It’s apparent which one sells on Chowk.``

Perhaps you are right but I cannot judge or come to conclusions with regard to the authors absence thus far. Tell me, what do results of the elections say? Faith in the inate goodness, fairness of the Indian electorate? perhaps this may sound like a cheeky question coming from a Pakistani, under military rule, yet, perhaps this will not disqualify it from consideration? Do not misunderstand me, I realize that india is big and complex, country but am I wrong in thinking that the magnitude of the problem (communal) has substantially increased? Actually, I am convinced it will continue to grow as india becomes a more complex economy, it`s built in to the structure of society and reflects in the constructs that animate it`s external relations.

Now if I may I should like to explain my impatience. Recently a couple of visitors were over, they had family in India and the conversation took that turn. They felt that I was not sufficiently aware of the wrath that their family and ordinary Muslims, most who they said lived as minorities in villages suffer when ever realtions with Pakistan are more tense than usual. I informed them that a Bangladeshi friend of mine was in Bombay at the time of the riots and had told me of the kinds things Muslims suffered there. My guests suggested that we in Pakistan need to be ever mindful of the vulnerablity that we expose our coreligionists and kin in India to, if we do not follow Indian leadership. I remain very upset that muslims in India are basically hostage and I find in attitude you are taking an acceptance of that hostage status. Reasonableness is not necessarily reflected in elections, and I suggest to you that a most unreasonable intellectual trend has taken hold in India. Calling it secularism is not going to change the reality of the experience(s)(Abandon an islamic or Muslim idenity or construct a hinduized muslim identity). Of course Pakistan cannot do anything about it, but only Muslims in India can help themselves. It is clear to me that psychologically and culturally, they will find it very difficult to be Pakistanis, even if they had such a choice; one twelveth the size of India, Pakistani Muslims says don`t push us we will teach you a lesson to remember, while indian muslims, citizens of india, by all rights and privilage of heritage, Indian, are required to abandon their history and culture to ingratiate themselves and earn a place in line with other ``minorities``.

Actually, I must apologise to you, I have been inconsiderate and the way you choose to see the world and yourself in it, is your business and none of mine.

Zafar:

You had asked if Bapu Shah Bhardwaj Lazwanti had ever written introspective before? Well, I will reproduce his text. It may not be fully introspective, but it is the truth. Get past the hyperbole, and you will see the bitterness. I don`t know what the hell this guy is, of he`s Indian, Bihari stuck in Bangladesh whatever. I do know that this post is relevant, if not for him, than for the disfranchised Muslims of India. I take the liberty of reproducing it in its entirety.

``The sooner we forget most of the contrived history of medievel india better it is for the country.When you say muslim RULERS ,it does not mean 99.99999999999999999 % of muslims ever were royal or have any inheritence from it or been benefeciary of it.It only puts the muslim on an unsympathetic platform like the czars ,& all the royals who were butchered & deserved to be according to the new socialistic justice for all the persecution of past.

Regardless of kings & queens in india were muslims ,the majority of Muslims of India,NOW, are more close to lower strata of caste system or mainly unchanged from there agragarian livelihood from 100 yrs prior to independence & 54 yrs after the independence.

The few lucky ,talented & reselient who did make themselves into somthing in Calcutta,Delhi Mumbai ,Kanpur ,Jamshedpur,Bokaro,Ahmedabad,etc industrial belts ALL HAVE ONE TIME OR ANOTHER HAVE FACED DEVASTATING PHYSICAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAUMA OF ORGANIZED PRE MEDITATED PLANNED COMMUNAL DEMOLITION in the last 50 yrs somtime more than once.

It is said one should be thankfull in whatever bad situation one finds in.In that respect ofcourse Indian muslims have also air ,water,food,clothing ,health to thank full for .Of course they are better than the tutse tribe in Rowanda & under the gun of Mighty America ,Taleban,BUT THEN EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE``

Dear Chacha Nehru:

I checked out the reports on the Ikwan in Kashmir, as per the URL provided by you. The HRW people themselves say that the tortured people were Jamaat Islami activists. The Jamaat Islami is openly anti India and Pro Pakistan.

So, what is your point? Do you expect Indian Army to give laddoos to Jamaatis. Infact, in the HRW report, none of the Jamaat members were killed, only threatened and intimidated. I have a problem with that actually. Why were the Jammatis not executed? That inefficiecy of Indian Army must be investigated, and punished.

This is an interesting point ;)

Any comments by the Pakistanis????

Fact: Their are only 2 possibilities. The whole subcontinent becomes completely secular or India becomes a Hindu state. History will decide.

YLH:

Yesterday some Indian told me that `Arundati Roy` was nothing but a whore... how sad is that?

That is very sad. Hope you told the guy off. A statement like that needs to be condemned without reservation. However, while rising to her defence as an individual, keep in mind that Arundhati Roy is definitely Anti American, so I wouldn`t rise to a staunch defence off her views either.

re: Zafar # 156

Goes to show that in many parts we continue to live in the dark ages.

We can fight darkness only with light, not with darkness.

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Hindustan Times Editorial Platform (Oct 23 01)

Manufacturing a divide

Aslam Qadar Khan



Vir Sanghvi’s point in his column (Waiting for a Hindu backlash, October 14) that there are not enough moderate Muslim voices is well taken.

Yes, there are not enough such voices. More and more moderate and liberal Muslims must make themselves heard.

Having said that, however, there are two points one would like to make. First, the appeal for more moderate Muslim voices must not be restricted only to times of crisis. The Indian media must make a conscious effort to seek out moderate Muslim voices at all times.

Second, the sooner we accept the fact that there is no global Muslim identity, the sooner we will stop pushing Muslims to the wall every time there is some issue engulfing some Muslim country and providing ammunition to both Muslim and Hindu extremists. If these two things are not done, we will be manufacturing, rather than ‘waiting’ for a Hindu backlash.

It is increasingly difficult for moderate Muslims to find space for their voices. As Rajdeep Sardesai (Indian Express, October 16) writes, the media love a fundamentalist. In fact, this love affair is so much that the media seem to discourage liberal Muslim voices while actively seeking out — if not encouraging — extremist Muslim opinion. This is clearly evident by the disproportionate amount of time, attention and space given to extremist Muslims in the media all over the world.

When a handful of people listen to Imam Bukhari or wave a flag with Bin Laden’s face on it, Islam is seen as the problem. “Is Islam the face of terrorism?”, thunders a Star TV news programme.

But when thousands of kar sevaks pull down the Babri masjid, it is not the Hindu religion but extremism that is clearly seen as the face of such outrage.

It is a common complaint of moderate Muslims that their voices are never provided with adequate space during ‘normal’ times. Articles are not printed, meetings are not covered. But during times of crisis, when Mullah Bukhari starts ranting, the media are there to hold forth and listen.

Moderate Muslims are then asked to explain him, rationalise him and prove our distance from him. We are more than willing to do this, but how many times and how many of us need to do so? It is highly annoying and frustrating to have to defend ourselves from the ravings of extremist elements in the Muslim community.

And every time there is a ‘Muslim’ crisis — Shah Bano or the present one — extreme voices become not only more appealing but also more exciting for news consumption. It is far more difficult for moderate Muslims already on the defensive to be heard.

The issue of a pan-Islamic identity is clearly nonsense. It is mostly a media construction. It is raked up during times of crisis and conveniently forgotten at other times. A UP Muslim has more in common with a UP Hindu than he has in common with a Muslim from another state, let alone another country.

Muslims do not share some sort of an identity which overrides their national identities. There is no pan-Christian identity either. Muslim countries fight against one other. There are secessionist movements in Muslim countries too. Or are we forgetting Bangladesh? Did Iraq not invade Kuwait?

There are countless examples which reduce the idea of a pan-Islamic identity to what it is: a convenient propaganda tool in the hands of extremists. It is used by non-Muslim extremists to lay the blame on the Muslim minority in their country. It is used by Muslim extremists like Bin Laden to muster whatever support they can for their dubious causes. The success or failure of both such attempts is no proof for the existence of any pan-Islamic identity.

We cannot dismiss the notion of a pan-Islamic identity. But far too much is read into it. It has become the bane for Indian Muslims, used to question our nationalism and loyalty. “Are you an Indian first or a Muslim first?” is an absurd question to ask. We all live with multiple identities. It is as absurd as asking whether one is a man first or a father first or a husband first. Religion and nationality are two separate things and they cannot — particularly in a secular country — be in conflict.

There is very little Muslim support for Bin Laden from Muslims who have nothing to do with him. But there may be support to him from Muslim mullahs who have much to do with him. So one must understand that while there are Muslims responding to Bin Laden, they are also Muslims denouncing him.

Also, let us only worry about Indian Muslim support to Bin Laden — which is quite meagre to begin with. Finally, let us distinguish between supporting Bin Laden and expressing our deep grievances with the American policy in various parts of the world.

Let us all — liberal Hindus, liberal Muslims and the media — actively join forces to counter-extremism. Otherwise we may all have to bear some responsibility for manufacturing support to the Hindu right.

Shahid Akhter Makhfi,

I read your article and you make some valid points but have some facts wrong that have been pointed out by other on this board. I don’t think that Green tiles in the bathrooms are offensive. My bathroom has green tiles too, it just the décor we chose. Muslims don’t have a copyright on the color green. That said, I don’t disagree there are some Hindu fundamentalists who would like to drive us out of our country like the Pakistani’s drove the Hindus out of their country, but the majority would like to preserve India’s secular fabric. Your article would have made more interesting reading if you had also mentioned what some Hindus are doing to help some Muslims, say like seva a overwhelmingly Hindu women’s organization that helps Muslim women weavers by marketing their products and giving them a much better price.

The article also has a ghetto Muslim tone to it. My family is doing well in India and has not faced any discrimination. You have to get out and compete, most if not all employers are interested in your performance not your faith.

Regards,

Faruk

re shailendar #143:

Excellent post I must say. Plz. contribute more.

later

-sac

P.S: Don`t worry about the usual suspects polluting the interacts. Its the price one has to pay in order to have an open forum.

Genghis Khan: ``All ye muslims. Allah has sent you Genghis Khan to fight. Are you ready?``

Isnt Genghis the chap who build a tower of muslim heads in Baghdad? The bloke whose soldier one stopped a muslim traders caravan and told them not to dare to move while he went and fetched his sword with which to decap them? So what`s the deal now?

soysauce #170
``self-professed secularist``
Where have I ``self-professed`` and who are you to judge? I have not understood whats your problem? I`m a messenger, too, of my own views. Why are you trying to shoot me?

semipreciousme #185
``and sadna, yes the biased, prejudiced and bigoted pakistani media is incomparable to the just, impartial and equitable indian media…the greatest thing since velcro….sliced bread even, right?``

Considering that I posted a number of posts dumping on the Indian media and Hindu-Muslim issues on the Ali Minai board, I donot plan to explain myself further to idiots.

soysauce #170
``Seriously, you could have simply pointed out that the charges that the author makes are genuine and that he could have bolstered his case citing an indian source rather than the NYT.``

I did, in two posts at least :#27 and #28.

Re Eklavya 177

``We can fight darkness only with light, not with darkness.``

But on a technical note, it is possible to fight darkness with darkness, thanks to state-of-the-art night vision technology. :)

YLH:

In one of your interacts, you said that Indian Muslims are being terrorized and victimized in their daily lives.

Let me give you a little bit of an example. Hindu scriptures were never written down and were handed down orally from teacher to student, from generation to generation.

Your heroes, the Muslim sultans of Delhi, not only destroyed every single temple in Northern India, they terrorized the priests to such an extent that even in the tiny little temples that Hindus built to practice their faith surreptitiously, there were no pujas according to the scriptures for close to 30 generations.

The result is that worship in North Indian temples consist of showing the aarti (lighted lamp) to the idol followed by singing `Jaya Jagdeesh Hare`.

Go to South Indian temples and compare the elaborate rituals that are performed there to the pitiful state of affairs in North India.

Compared to this treatment of Hindus in their own land, you fcukers have been allowed to keep your Satanic Verses aka The Unholy Quran and your co-religionists have been running madrassahs all over India to propagate your religion.

Terrorizing the Mulim population would call for burning every copy of the Quran, demolishing every mosque, killing every maulana, and cutting off the tongue of anyone who dared to open his mouth to say `Bismillah`.

So long as that is not being done in India, your co-religionists have far more rights than the Hindus had for 1000 years under the heel of Islamic thugs.

So shut up about the treatment of minorities in India. They have your country to go to if they don`t like it in India but I don`t see a line in front of the Pakistan High Commission for visas.

Semi, Sadna just called you an idiot

Semipreciousme #160,

Check again. Indian movies are banned.

Just because you can see Indian movies using smuggled video cassettes doesn`t mean they are not banned.

sigalph235 # 87

``When my grandparents moved from Murshidabad to Chittagong, trust me it was not as weekend tourists.``

Did you go to SPS ? When did you live there??

If you wish not to reply,I will understand.

Regards.

sadna:

``thats what we Hindus plan for Pukistan.``

you stop referring to my beautiful country in this demeaning manner..i dont like it...

and its below you too

Sadna, you are a cool gal.

I am behind you 100%.

Ignore the nutcases I say.

Includes some Indians like Kiran. What drugs is he/she on?

sadna various posts.

During the last three years that I have been

around this lunatic ward aka chowk,I have never seen you losing your cool inspite of personal insults heaped on you from all sides.I respect

your point of view and have observed your mostly

balanced views,but this time on this board you

have behaved unlike yourself.Relax and take it

easy.Things can`t be all that bad...unless your

monthly payments have been stopped by some Section

Officer in the MoD :))))

Regards

Soysauce, why are you finding fault with Sadna?

Her posts are valid. Have you seen her posts on complicity of Bombay police in the riots?

BTW, are you Indian or Pakistani?

And how come you are not finding fault with Zafar since he agrees completely with Sadna.

sadna, various posts,

Take a deep breath and relax. Anger won`t get you anywhere but to the path of physical self destruction (wrinkles on your pretty little face :).



Not once in any of my posts did I enhance Pakistan or patronize Indian Muslims. All I asked for was some appreciation of self criticism in response to this article.

As far as YLH and Sarwari are concerned, if they are unreasonably patriotic of Pakistan, they are vehemently critical of it as well.

Do you even bother reading anything written by Pakistanis other than what you WANT to read?

Zafar,

Do you really think the Indian film industry is representative of the real India?

Do women really prance around half naked on the streets of India? Can Indian men still jump from 10 story buildings on their feet and their big poof hair styles intact?

That`s all the absurdities that I can remember as of now.

:)

Do you wish to retract your statement?

Reply Gowardhan # 135

Gowardhan – the article from Makhfi you posted is most interesting. A few things which perhaps people can clarify for me:

“Once said, it is believed and the belief is such that people may not cremate the dead for two months in the belief that the dead man is still alive but meditating, while the body in fact is decomposing.”

Hain? I’ve never heard of this. Has anybody else? Laash ko kahan rakhthe hain? Would there be anybody left to cremate the first dead person or would every one else have died from cholera?

“The Britishers are revered as the builders of Modern India, while the chief architects to lay the groundwork were the Turks.”

We were conquered by the Turks? Were we in the Ottoman Empire? Why didn’t anybody tell me??!!!

The Mughals would be the invaders least distant from Turks, being Turkmen speakers from Farghana, could this be what he was talking about? Very sloppy…

“The VHP through manipulation of historical research, in pursuance of its claim, has done a commendable job. Now members of the Bajrang Dal claim that they know the precise birth spot of Krishna that lies beneath the Idgah at Varanasi !”

Now my sneak previews of Amar Chitra Katha at friends’ houses (I wasn’t allowed comics, sigh) gave me to believe that Krishna was born in Mathura. True? Not true? Why hasn’t the Bajrang Dal been informed of this? (Given your handle I expect a FULL explanation of this point from you.)

“On the question of Ram temple, it seems that Ram has been monopolised by the Hindi speaking belt of North India.”

What? Ayodhya vaisai new invention hai kya? Ramlila men Ayodhya ka naam nahin likkha kya?

“A study of the Hindu history reveals that the temple worship was an alien of practice. None of the scriptures refer to them or lay on Hindus the duty of going to temple for worship of an image.”

My head is spinning now. What’s his point here?

“Mahabharata makes no mention of temple nor the word “Ayodhya” comes anywhere.``

Er...does the Mahabharata cover Ram`s story? I thought it didn`t...might that be why it doesn`t mention Ayodhya?

``It was more of a borrowed phenomenon from the practice of kins that people started going to temples to look at the image of diving potentate and to watch the ceremonials of his daily life, which were modelled on those of a king.”

Diving potentates? Nagarajas or scuba karne vaale?

Gowardhan Saheb, this man just seems peevish now. (Or the intellectual saathhi of our belowwwed Imam Bukhari.) But if I am wrong, please let me know. Otherwise I am EMBARRASSED that he is a Muslim. (God knows there’s plenty of room for criticism re: where Indian Muslims are today, but what provokes Chowk to publish stuff of this calibre when a simple look at an Encyclopedia would discredit the author’s ability to write knowledgeably on the subject?)

I must go and lie down now.

Zafar

re: Hobbyty # 171

Hobbyty,

A very interesting post.

So what did you tell your Indian Muslim guests when they suggested that Pakistan needs to be mindful of the vulnerablity of Indian Muslims?

Reply Stuka # 167

Re: Hindutva

I agree that the right wing elite in India had no intention of actually giving political power to lumpens, but the fact is that having created a political vehicle fueled by these people the elite is less in control of them than it would like. That’s my point. Vaisai I agree that class is a greater functional determiner of power and affinity in India than religion or caste, at least for the elite.

Re:

Re: Mangley

It is a puzzle, and one we should think about, that communalism is alive and well in some of India’s most advanced states (Maharashtra, let’s not forget the Shiv Sena and the Bombay riots, after all, in India’s most “developed” city, and Gujarat) and is somewhat blunted in its poorest (Bihar). That’s why I think that communalism is not just an expression of poverty, but also of a disfunctional ideology.

What troubles me is that I do think that the BJP has some really sound things to offer India, but I think they’re a package deal (economic reform plus riots). If they’re going to change, they have to change from within and with the ideological blessings of the RSS.

Zafar

Reply Stuka, Bapu # 173, 178

“You had asked if Bapu Shah Bhardwaj Lazwanti had ever written introspective before? Well, I will reproduce his text. It may not be fully introspective, but it is the truth. Get past the hyperbole, and you will see the bitterness. I don`t know what the hell this guy is, of he`s Indian, Bihari stuck in Bangladesh whatever. I do know that this post is relevant, if not for him, than for the disfranchised Muslims of India.”

You’re right Stuka.

Bapu please accept my apology – sometimes you do write things which are insightful and it was wrong of me not to acknowledge that. (I still stand by what I said about introspection and the Islamic Renaissance, however.)

“AND PLZ SHOW ME ONE ASPECT OF HINDUISM WHICH IS INTROSPECTION OR SUPERIOR TO ISLAM.”

Bapu what does introspection by Muslims have to do with Hinduism?

Zafar

Reply Hobbyty # 171

Hobbyty

Yaar, kabhi kabhi chakkar aane lagthe hain yeh sabh parh ke.

“Rsridhar says that Muslims can earn the gratitude of Hindus if they let them have the Babri?”

I don’t agree with him on this one. I think that the case must be settled in the courts, and then the courts findings must be implemented, regardless of what they are.

“In other words, without evidence, admit they are in error - and the the implications for the next demand? The Hindu God is more valid than a Masjid? After all muslims are not really indian or they did actually steal the land, or that only they did, rape and pillage? Cuz you do realize the demands will not end just with this Babri business, do you not? Earn their gratitude? while they write a history in which Muslims are foreigners? Invaders?”

To be fair, Hobbyty, I’m sure that Sridhar did not imply any of this in his posts. One needs to read them fully before jumping to conclusions.

“Are your Father, mother and their parents, Turks??? Do you look like a Turk??”

Er…actually….I kinda do…but that is not the point, is it?

“TNT was a conspiracy against the great Hindu nation and Pakistan is an abomination???”

Vaisai, TNT was a conspiracy against Indian Muslims by their “leaders” – big fish in small pond syndrome. But how does this follow from your earlier point?

“No such thing as a great Muslim nation in India?? No such thing as Muslim culture in India??”

There is an Indian nation which includes people of different religions. Why is that hard to accept?

“Islam in India is expected to be responsible for the extreme or unpopular ideas or acts, is Hinduism responsible for Shiv Sena, RSS, Bajrang Dal, etc??”

People are responsible for these things, Hobbyty. Just like people are responsible for driving a plane into the WTC. Not religions. People.

“Do newspapers reveal this? Islam, the face of terror! but the demolition of the Babri, an abberation? an act by a handful of extremist?”

Hobbyty, how many mainstream Indian papers or major Indian politicians have said that Islam is the face of terror. On the contrary they continue to irritate Bajrang Dal types by repeating the mantra (eeek! Did I say mantra?) “Islam is a religion of peace, Islam is a religion of peace…”

“imagine Maulana Fazul Rahman winning an election on a platform that call for the destruction of some temple, is actually elected and appointed to the second most powerful post in government. Well, sure, it could happen.”

This presupposes elections.

“Has any Indian Muslim had the cojones to say that Hindus could earn the gratitude of Muslims if they pulled out of Kashmir, and then did X and Y and Z?”

Who are you to say that? No Indian would earn my gratitude by pulling out of Kashmir – aren’t I a Muslim? Btw, they wouldn’t earn Imam Bukhari’s gratitude either – even if you doubt my authenticity surely he is a mohallahvaala above reproach.

“… you remain unwilling to call a spade a spade - and it only this, this confrontation, however one chooses to define the confrontation, either electoral, or awareness raising, something that will allow the nation to take a breath and realize the danger of Hindu nationalism - after all, If Hindu nationalism is a valid commodity, why aren`t the nationalism of non-Hindus valid?”

Who says religious nationalism of any kind is a good thing for India? The only nationalism there should be in India is Indian nationalism.

“This not about individual Hindus or individual Muslims, but rather about a ideological movement which is determined to stamp a Hindu identity upon India, now you are right that this the business of Indians, but please, please do not throw the rubbish about pluralistic , unique definition of secular democracy at us - it`s an insult to persons intelligence - by all means if that paradigm finds resonance or that ideal holds attraction, who are we in Pakistan to say, that is not valid, for you, just don`t tell us that is true for us as well.”

Yes, yes, that’s also a strong ideology in India, if it’s not true for you what is going to happen to your minorities?

“After all why is Ok to ban SIMI but not any Hindu organization involved in inciting communalism?”

Ban them all, I say.

“How secular is a government that wages a civil war aginst persons who choose to define their movement in religious terms? - Again, don`t get me wrong, why would a movement calling itself Islamic invoke such wrath in a supposedly ``secular`` polity? while movements that promote hindu values and identity provoke no such reflex?”

SIMI promotes the violent dissolution of the country, which is against the law. Muslim parties continue to function in India openly (and an Independence Party btw continues to function without let or hindrance in Indian Kashmir, unlike PoK) – but don’t seem to get much of a following from Indian Muslims. Now is it my fault that their ideology does not attract a following?

“Sadna has accused Asif and myself of attempting to bind Indian muslims in Ideological prostitution, you may even agree with this objectionable notion.”

Nobody’s offered to pay me yet. ISI saalaa check nahin bhejthe…

“Yet to say that unrest or an alienation among Muslims in India does not play into the hands of some in Pakistan would be less than truthful, however; this point of view completely disregards any sense of religious affinity and concern, it assumes all pakistani muslims who posit an opinion have nothing but Machiavellian motives. On the other hand, you are quite correct in saying that Pakistan as a whole cannot claim the right to speak for Muslims of India, however; it deny affinities is to deny reality.”

By the same token we have a natural concern about what happens in Pakistan – hence the comments on secularism, democracy, respect for minorities, etc. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

“Perhaps you are right but I cannot judge or come to conclusions with regard to the authors absence thus far. Tell me, what do results of the elections say? Faith in the inate goodness, fairness of the Indian electorate? perhaps this may sound like a cheeky question coming from a Pakistani, under military rule, yet, perhaps this will not disqualify it from consideration?”

People get the governments they deserve.

“Do not misunderstand me, I realize that india is big and complex, country but am I wrong in thinking that the magnitude of the problem (communal) has substantially increased? Actually, I am convinced it will continue to grow as india becomes a more complex economy, it`s built in to the structure of society and reflects in the constructs that animate it`s external relations.”

Yes and no. Some of the reactions to change and growth promote communalism. Other reactions to, and factors of, change and growth promote a secular approach to life. There is no one trend in any country – certainly as true of Pakistan as of India.

“Now if I may I should like to explain my impatience. Recently a couple of visitors were over, they had family in India and the conversation took that turn. They felt that I was not sufficiently aware of the wrath that their family and ordinary Muslims, most who they said lived as minorities in villages suffer when ever realtions with Pakistan are more tense than usual.”

This is true. But it’s not your responsibility. You should not have to mind what you say because we have failed to implement a fully secular policy in India.

“I informed them that a Bangladeshi friend of mine was in Bombay at the time of the riots and had told me of the kinds things Muslims suffered there.”

My grandmother and many relatives live in Bombay. You don’t have to tell me.

“My guests suggested that we in Pakistan need to be ever mindful of the vulnerablity that we expose our coreligionists and kin in India to, if we do not follow Indian leadership. I remain very upset that muslims in India are basically hostage and I find in attitude you are taking an acceptance of that hostage status.”

How so?

“Pakistan cannot do anything about it, but only Muslims in India can help themselves.”

Jee haan.

“It is clear to me that psychologically and culturally, they will find it very difficult to be Pakistanis, even if they had such a choice; one twelveth the size of India, Pakistani Muslims says don`t push us we will teach you a lesson to remember, while indian muslims, citizens of india, by all rights and privilage of heritage, Indian, are required to abandon their history and culture to ingratiate themselves and earn a place in line with other ``minorities``.”

What makes you think we have to abandon any portion of our history and culture? And how does our history and culture differ from other Indians` history and culture? Aren’t they the same? How are they different?

“Actually, I must apologise to you, I have been inconsiderate and the way you choose to see the world and yourself in it, is your business and none of mine.”

Kya kahthe ho bhai? At least you listen and dialogue rather than just scream insults. As the young people used to say about sixty zillion years ago: keep on truckin’.

Zafar

Some general comments on discrimination around the world.

Indonesia which happens to be overwhelmingly Muslim Javanese prohibits Chinese (Christian/Buddhist) from using Chinese names, adopting Chinese customs and learning Chinese language. It is not an Islamic republic. Turkey prohibited Kurds from using Kurdish names, practising their culture and using their language. You could not use the word ``Kurd`` till recently. Kurds were called ``Mountain Turks``. Turkey is a secular state. Imagine Indian security forces enforcing similar rules on Indian Muslims.

Sudan declared Islamic law in mid 1980`s and converted country into war zone. 2 million plus non-Muslims have been killed, starved to death etc. Worse the oil drilled in the non-Muslim territorry are used to finance the war. I am sure Pakistanis won`t see any mention of this in their newspapers.

Lebanon had a 50% Maronite Christian majority. They are down to 30%. Look for the percentage to drop below 10% in 20 years. Egypt had 20% Coptic minority in the 1955. They are down to 7%. Bangladesh had 25% Hindu minority in 1971. Thanks to religious persecution they are down to 10%. Call it low intensity persecution.

Having said the above I would not advocate any reverse discrmination against Muslim minorities.

Any attempt by Muslim minorities in India at secession and to practice Islam beyond the personal realm should be met with maximum force.

Of course that also applies at a lower level to the Hindu majority in India.

Mr Shahid Akhter Makhfi,

Your article is devoid of any coherence as the moon is of life. Shame on you Chowk for publishing garbage.

NotAMullah

tvarad 183

Very good article you posted. Aslam Qadar Khan is right mostly. One important point. This pan islamic thing is not only media creation. Both evil fundamentalists muslims and hindus promote that idea.

Muslim fundamentalists like hobbyty on chowk think nothing but pan islam (surprisingly sensing the mood on chowk he has not come out against Pakistan in favor of Bin Laden yet but he will do so soon. Still, for him Islam is Pakistan and Pakistan is Islam). Hindu fundamentalists look at people like Hobbyty and take him as confirmation of their already existing hatreds.

No difference between Hobbyty types and RSS types. Both promote violence in which average peaceful Indian Muslims suffer. We should shut the mouths of these hateful people.

In his latest column Ayaz Amir says:

“”After the historic referendum the political scene has shifted and is no longer putty or French plaster in General Musharraf`s hands. His cohorts could not manage a one-sided referendum. How will they manage a contentious and contested general election? One, moreover, likely to be dominated by the hated spectres of the PPP and the Nawaz League.

In a world not driven by paranoia or megalomania, a fiasco such as the referendum would call for a re-examination of priorities.

But nothing of the sort is occurring in Islamabad.

Far from sounding chastened, the general has spoken of a permanent political role for the armed forces while his trumpeters, Memon in the lead, continue to insist upon the transparency and fairness of the referendum.

__________________________________________________

They are even saying the coming elections would be as transparent as the referendum (oh, boy) - which is meant as an affirmation of good faith but sounds more like a threat.

__________________________________________________

In any case, the choices on offer are stark. The original theory was built on Gen Musharraf`s popularity:

``People tell me that I am very popular. I thought if I am really popular, I must go to the people.``

These are verbatim Musharraf quotes from an ARY interview.

On the coattails of his popularity the right sort of parliament would be elected in October. But the referendum has cast these happy forecasts into doubt. In its aftermath how can ``positive results`` be ensured?

Tongas on their own can`t do it. Nor can the patched-up quilt of a Quisling League deliver the kind of vote the general is banking upon.

Thus barring wholesale disqualifications or massive rigging, the military government is left holding the strings of an uncertain future.

Of course it can do the right thing by holding proper elections without regard to the outcome.

But this is hoping for the moon.

If such good sense could prevail in Pakistan we wouldn`t be in the mess we find ourselves in.(Dawn)

jay #163 ``I am one of the few on chowk directly affected by the WTC attack, I am fired by morgan stanley, nearly half of our fleet are on the ground, and who needs an engine specialist when the engines are not running, and th silly bas/tards know that I have no where to go.``

I dont belive a word of what you write - remember the last time you told me you lived in Kerala, and then a few posts later assured me that there was no way I could tell whether you were lying or not and you could be living anywhere? So, excuse me if I fail to take your word no more seriously than you do.

Zafar, nasah, faruk, other Indian Muslims,

For some people it is easier to dismiss me calling me Islam hater than do the hard thinking I ask them to do.

That is why I call them brainwashed. Two people I admire, zafar and eklivya. Both are too patient at least in my view.

Some things I cant stand for which Pakistanis call me Islam hater.

One fool (he may be Indian) argues that using green tiles means insult to Islam.

Another Pakistani crook says hateful things and adds Allah knows best. Every body accepts that hateful argument because Allah is supposed to know best.

Third idiot uses twenty foot sh&t before someone`s name to scare people into believing him even if that guys ideas are absurd. In India we used to have many such idiots thirty years ago. Most are dead. I never respected them. I am not going to respect new idiots just because they are Pakistani.

Another Paksitani idiot keeps using real problems in India to sell his snake oil telling Indian Muslims that they are world`s most suffering, exploited, terrorized, oppressed population hoping to incite hatred. Now he is openly suggesting another partition! Why does he do that? Individual hindus may be good. But overall Hindus are bad. He couldnt live with them. How can you?

Blood of five million people hindus, muslims, children, men, women, old, young, who were killed in the last partition is not enough for this blood thirsty man whose mind is drenched in blood. He likes to pretend to be spreading religion using big words! I hate him for his dirty thoughts. I dont hate Islam. He will tell you he is Islam. Pakistan is Islam. By hating him, I hate Islam. Sh$t on him, I say.

All these ``Islam loving`` Pakistanis want to grab Kashmir using Islam card. If they loved Islam so much they would go save shias being killed in their country. No one speaks of them on Chowk. If they loved Islam so much they would take back those more than million Biharis stuck in Bangladesh. If they loved Islam so much they would speak out against China for it is doing to Muslims. If they loved Islam so much they would not have destroyed raped a Muslim country Afghanistan to build ``strategic depth`` against India. Such a crime!

These Islam using Pakistanis are hypocrites using religion for war. Islam is very far from their minds.

Sadna,

Banjara # 195 makes a valid point. Please don`t lose patience (now, who am I to talk?).

anNy # 193

Girl, that`s some class.

re: Rdesikan # 188

Really?! See, that`s why I never enter into an argument with you techno types :(

Seriously, though, doesn`t night-vision technology merely amplify ambient light (or, possibly, it could employ non-optical parts of the EM spectrum)?

Woh tau phir light hi huee naa? :)

Tr. Isn`t that just another form of light?:)

Regards.

babu 207

You made a mistake without wanting to make it perhaps. Separtism by *anyone * (hindu muslim donkey) should be met with maximum force because those ideas cause too many problems creating hatred. Nip the evil in the bud.

Banjaara,Eklavya, whoever

I would suggest you either take a hike or spend your valuable time posting on the subject at hand. Just like I donot pay attention to insults(mostly), I donot pay attention to commendations and criticism either. I am NOT interested in explaining myself to any person here who demands it or to take instruction from you, I am here to express my own views on the subject for my own sake. As I asked soysauce, who ARE you?


scout
Its hard to take people like you seriously. I would like you to take a deep breath and see where exactly I was trying to prove India`s secularism through B`bay movies before posting multiple posts lecturing me on it. If you can find it, THEN I may consider taking you seriously.

anNy#193
Its hard for me to ignore that you`re the one of those who turns up to defend ali1 after his beautiful and classy posts. However, this will not prevent me from replying to him whenever he deserves it.

The question to ask is whether things have changed for the better or worse in the past few years:

www.truthindia.com

Khaki Prejudice

Ram R. Punyani
Posted June 16, 2000


The episode of (9th April, 2000) police force barging in to the Hostel of Jamia Milia Isalmia on the pretext of looking for two offenders, and then going on rampage is not only highly disturbing, but is one more reminder of the communalsiation of state apparatus in general and of the police force in particular. Earlier there was a fracas in which two of the students were involved and were to be apprehended. The police contingent of close to a thousand broke open the gate of the hostel, beat up the warden and then mercilessly beat all around while hurling highly communal abuses, calling the students Pakistani agents, ISI agents and also made other derogatory remarks. It is worth recalling that Jamia Milia Islamia is one of the products of the struggle for independence and has been the flag bearer of Indian Nationalism, Secularism and Democracy.

The list of biased behavior of police can be infinitesimally long. Not very long ago in Post demolition Mumbai riots most of the victims of police `action` were Muslims. In the first phase of riots when police was using the bullets with gay abandon, the victims who during this phase happened to be mostly Muslims suffered bullet wounds. While in the second phase the victims suffered stab wounds mainly due to the action instigated by the Shiv Sena.

One of the police officials, Vibhuti Narayan Rai, conducted a study in to the behavior of police in the communal riots (Record of Police Neutrality in Communal Riots, Indian Journal of Secularism, Dec 97). The finding of this study is very disturbing. The study is based on the interviews with the community leaders, feedback from serving and the retired police personnel, record of the police academy, and study of the reports of different communal riots. While we know that 65% the victims of communal riots have been Muslims the arrest and casualty figures are very revealing. In Bhiwandi riots 1970 of those arrested in cognisable offences, 21 were Hindus while 901 were Muslims, casualties wise, 17 were Hindus and 59 were Muslims. In Meerut riots of 1982 the pattern is no different 124 Hindus were arrested, as against 231 Muslims while 2 Hindus and 8 Muslims were the victims of casualty. As in Mumbai, here also police bullets selective hit the body of Muslims and soul of secular values. In Bhiwandi (1970), Firozabad (1972), Aligarh (1978), Meerut (1982) there was not a single Hindu victim of police bullets while the number of Muslims dying of police bullets respectively was-9, 6,7,and 6.

Let us have a look at come of the glaring examples of the police partiality. In Meerut riot in 1987 P.A.C. was deployed to control the riots. As the violence continued unabated for some time, PAC according to its theory that Muslims are responsible for the riots and should be taught a lesson, picked up more than two dozen Muslims from a locality known as Hashimpura and killed them at two places in Gaziabad after transporting them in their truck. One of the worst complicity of the police in communal violence was seen in Bhagalpur riots (1989). Here the police was a mute witness to the murder of 116 Muslims who were buried in a field and cauliflower was grown on it to cover up the episode. Bhagalpur police administration kept denying this till another police party led by a DIG dug out some of these dead bodies.

Police ``Understanding`` of the situation

Because of the heavy communalsation of the police force it believes that communal riots are due to Muslims and this is what guides their conduct. Their communalised consciousness is supplemented by brutal savagery, which gets further compounded by their non-professional approach in dealing with these situations. Many Muslim predominant areas are termed as `mini-Pakistan` and police force while entering these areas enter with the preparation and the spirit as if they are entering the enemy territory. This also makes them do the riot investigation in apathetic manner and years after years they keep sitting on the available evidence, which goes against their deep-set biases. Two of the comments from inquiry commission reports will give us a good glimpse of the attitude of some of the officers of the police. In the Bhiwandi-Jalgaon riot the Madon commission commented ``The real reason for the inadequacy of the measures taken by the authorities was the communal bent of mind of some of the officers and incompetence of others?Unfortunately, the SP, Mr. S.T.Raman appears to have possessed a communal bent of mind and perhaps a pro Jana Sangh (Previous avatar of BJP)?he fully realised the seriousness of situation but chose to turn a blind eye?``

In more recent Mumbai riots those who were implicated in the riots dubbed Justice Shri Krishna as anti Hindu. The police also got its `due share` in the report, `` police officers, particularly at the junior level, appeared to have an in built bias against the Muslims which was evident in their treatment of the Muslims and Muslim victims of the riots. The treatment given was harsh and brutal and, on occasions, bordering on inhuman, hardly doing any credit to the police. The bias of policemen was seen in active connivance of police constables with the rioting Hindu mobs on occasions, with their adopting the role of passive onlookers on other occasions, and finally, in their lack of enthusiasm in registering offences against Hindus even when the accused were clearly identified ?(vol., p.25-26) And ``Despite clues, miscreants were not pursued, arrested and interrogated, particularly when the suspected accused happened to be Hindus with connections to Shiv Sena or Shiv Sainiks. This general apathy appears to be the outcome of built-in prejudices in the minds of average policeman that every Muslim is prone to crime``(Vol. I, p.26)

Commission after commission of inquiry are full of these and similar type of examples of maltreatment and biased behavior against Muslims. Police not only behave in a partial manner during riots, in most of the `regular` situations also these biases govern their attitudes. Mostly the police act more as a `Hindu force` rather than as an arm of secular state. The discrimination in their behavior is obvious at all the levels. By now minorities have starting looking at them as the hostile force. Lately it is the experience of the second largest minority, the Christians as well.

What is the remedy to this impasse? On one hand the communalisation of society is cornering the minorities and on the other the supposedly protective force has no qualms in conniving and even acting on behalf of the offending communal elements. This is of course due to multiple factors. The recruits to the police force are from the same group, which is on the communal offensive.

The training programmes of police academies etc. are not at all geared for secularisation of its trainees. On the contrary many a top officials themselves are having heavy communal bias. The representation of the minorities in the police force is abysmal and the recruitment policy of the state has remained lop sided resulting in a very low percentage of Muslims in the police force. All these need to be reversed as early as possible. Not only that there should be a conscious effort to improve the percentage of Muslims in the police force but also the training programme needs to be recast with an emphasis not only on the Human rights of minorities but also the general communalisation has to be fought against at all the levels.

www.truthindia.com

Its a very long article, so pl. read

UPDATE ON THE SITUATION IN AZAMGARH: AN INVESTIGATIVE REPORT

Posted March 22, 2000
(submitted by Shamsul Islam)

under ``Events and other News`` in the left margin.

I think its another example of a typical situation where a local numerical majority of Hindus, and the bias of the police works against a minority group.

Zafar #201
``Or the intellectual saathhi of our belowwwed Imam Bukhari.``
Imam Bukhari has his moments too, donot forget. Our hotheaded clerics are better than their hotheaded clerics :).

Reply Babu # 207

Babu

“Any attempt by Muslim minorities in India at secession and to practice Islam beyond the personal realm should be met with maximum force.”

I don’t think there are any such attempts – unless you accept that the situation in Kashmir is a communal conflict.

“Of course that also applies at a lower level to the Hindu majority in India.”

Why at a lower level?

Zafar

Reply Scout # 200

“Do you really think the Indian film industry is representative of the real India?

The film industry does not depict India as it is, it depicts India’s dreams and aspirations. (Granted these can be escapist, trashy, vulgar, etc. etc. – nobody has everyu accused us of universal good taste.)

We may not all be fighting off villains and marrying Aishwarya Rai after cavorting (love that word) through France, Switzerland, Australia, the Bahamas etc. etc. But many of us would LIKE to. That’s what the films tell you – not what people have or are, but what they want or would like to be.

As such the industry does say something important about the country.

“Can Indian men still jump from 10 story buildings on their feet and their big poof hair styles intact?”

Actually this is quite factual. Aap kabhi aiye dekhne.

Zafar

re banjara

``Did you go to SPS ? When did you live there??``

Pardon my ignorance, but I am not sure I know what SPS is. I have never `lived` in Chittagong myself.

Reply Harimau # 189

Harimau

Every time I seem to have convinced my friend Hobbyty that Indian Muslims see themselves, and are seen by other Indians, as fully Indian and NOT citizens on sufferance (ie potential fifth columnists for Pakistan) you manage to lob in a post which:

1 Implies that you think that Muslims are fundamentally different from other Indians, and/or

2 Clearly states that in your opinion Indian Muslims are present in India only on the sufferance of Indian Hindus and not as of right in their own country, and/or

3 Makes no recognition of the fact that Indian culture is composite whole which includes the religious and social traditions of everyone who lives there, including Indian Muslims, and usually

4 Throws in some gratuitous abuse of Islam and the Koran.

There’s a term of ridicule for subcontinental Muslims who base their current self image on a spurious idea of a golden age when Muslims ran everything and built the Taj Mahal. You seem to be equally committed to living in the past rather than the present, only instead of going on about imagined glories you dwell on historical wrongs done to one set of dead people by another set of dead people. What is the word for such a person? And what’s the point?

A few more questions:

1 Do you think I am fundamentally different from you because of my religion? Why?

2 Do you think I am less Indian than you because of my religion? Why?

3 Do you think your culture is different from my culture? How so? If we’re both Indian don’t we share the same Indian culture?

If you answer, please don`t try and assign blame for your views to things some vague entity called ``the Muslims`` allegedly do. You`re writing these posts, not ``the Muslims``. You are responsible for what you write, not ``them``.

The term “co-religionists” also usually comes up in your posts – generally coupled with an invitation to subcontinental Muslims to take responsibility for the actions of people from places like Afghanistan or Sudan – in fact to take responsibility for the actions of just about anybody but themselves from just about any country but our own. (Pakistan for Pakistanis, India for Indian Muslims.) Instead of staying in a midieval mindset that sees the world as “co-religionists” of this or that or falana, don’t you think you owe your fellow nationals a little bit more decency? (Dislike Aurangzeb all you like – I’m not challenging your view of history – just be conscious that he’s DEAD and Indian Muslims who are around today are not him.)

To be frank, I have come to expect this kind of attitude (and uncultured aggressiveness) from a very few of the less enlightened Pakistani posters on Chowk. It’s embarrassing to hear the same kind of stupidity from a fellow Indian.

Zafar

Zafar Al-Talib

http://www.dailypioneer.com/secon2.asp?cat= story7&d=FRONT_PAGE

“ The unwarranted remark by Imam Bukhari came in response to a pertinent question from Shabana. She had asked him if he has issued a fatwa to all Muslims to prepare for jehad, ``why don`t you go to Kandahar and start the process. This would take away our troubles too,`` she told him during a video conferencing sequence on the subject Why the voice of liberal Muslims goes unheard``.

His response was: ``Main naachne gaane wali tawaifon ke sawalon ka jawab nahin dena chahta hoon.``

……. on national tv?!!?……what a piece of….and i thought our mullahs were bad….this guy takes the cake…shabana’s right….airdrop him into kandahar…..ASAP…..

Eklavya, Zafar

I told my guests that Pakistanis had scarified so much to build armed forces to not be blackmailed by India and that they were just plain wrong in the continuous appeasement. They said the usual, not all Hindus are ... so I asked them why then do they find themselves in the situation they do. After which my beautiful bride cleverly managed to change the subject to events and trends in Pakistan.

Of course, I am conscious that so many people want to be able to simply live their lives peacefully, in an amicable atmosphere with others. However, I am also aware that this is not possible for us, presently. For all of us have failed to examine in detail what must be the foundations of our desire to ensure a structure which we (our culture and identity) is not just preserved, but thrives, evolves or whatever, so long as it is free.

So many Indians on these boards swear by their version of secularism. A version in which promises to create an Indian Identity but which from my perspective, is dedicated to creating culturally Hindu Indian identity.

I have no problem with a secularism, the original sense of secularism, the so called “objective secularism``, (the one derived from and based on religious moral principles)in the sense of modern differentiation of institutions, not the ``subjective secularism`` in the sense of cultural and psychological decimation of religion, and in particular, Islam in India, while not so secretly promoting Hindu religion and culture.

The Islamist work That I have presented and will present is actually leading up to an understanding for the efficacy of such a objective secularism, one which has as it`s foundation, religious pluralism and freedom of conscience based on universal moral principles of Islam.

The difference between the Objective and subjective secularism is that in the former the institutions are differentiated, religion being an institution and religious knowledge, it`s subset; religion grows strong, relevant and a moral force, whereas in the latter, it is actually under attack. It is in this rational that calls for greater ``Indianization”, which calls for “cultural nationalism” in India, should be viewed. Wait then to hear that Hinduism is not a religion as such it is more a philosophy of life. Hmmm? Which reflects itself in the culture of society? Hmmm? No longer societies?



The Indian version of secularism will succeed for the Hindus and will marginalize the Muslim; such is its design. That remains the problem of the Indian Muslim; which is why I said to Zafar, that even if Indian Muslims had a choice to become Pakistanis, psychologically, it would be very difficult for them to make the leap from appeasement to a position of strong defense of Islamic identity in India. What choices and course of action(s) this leaves Indian Muslims is for them decide. Freedom is never free.

The saddest part of the read, is the ``triple`` jeopardy this places the Indian Muslim in, as is evident from the predicament, reflected in some responses. Educated Indian Muslims want to see themselves as being safe in secularism, but fail to differentiate between the promise and the reality, that is they do not question the quality(ies) that can lead to the desired effect, but have abandoned themselves to an unexamined version of secularism. Yet I am reconciled to hold hope; hope surviving, clutching to the adage ``that which does not break your back, will only make you stronger``

Zafar

``Vaisai, TNT was a conspiracy against Indian Muslims by their “leaders” – big fish in small pond syndrome.``

And the ``butter will not melt in their mouth`` Hindu leaders had nothing to do with it? We can have deeply help positions, but please let us not dispense with honesty, entirely.

“No such thing as a great Muslim nation in India?? No such thing as Muslim culture in India??”

There is an Indian nation which includes people of different religions. Why is that hard to accept?``

Zafar, India has always been many nations, it has never except in modern times been a single nation, with a single culture and a single language, with a single anything. The ambition that India be a single country, which includes people from different religions, different races, etc is a most noble, and praseworthy ambition. All I am suggesting is that the modalities employed for the pursuit of this ambition be examined. Read my bit about objective and subjective secularism; please read Daniel Bell, Robert Bellah and Peter Berger for a more detailed discussion. Or just read what VHP, BJP think of secularist on their website.

“imagine Maulana Fazul Rahman winning an election on a platform that call for the destruction of some temple, is actually elected and appointed to the second most powerful post in government. Well, sure, it could happen.”

This presupposes elections.

Elections in Pakistan? It`s relevance. Like questioning the nationality of the author of the paper? Touché? Then you will you choose to disregard the recent local body elections, creating both a democratic structure and bringing the process to peoples who have never actually experienced it their lives.

A cheap shot, Unworthy of you, because you could have dealt with the substance of my response not the validity of my right to a point of view.

Did Maulana f Rahman`s, JUI win big in the recent local election? You know the answer

``Who says religious nationalism of any kind is a good thing for India? The only nationalism there should be in India is Indian nationalism.``

Again, examine the content of ``Indian nationalism`` as we understand it today, rather as those ruling elite postulate intellectual trends about this notion. I know this cannot be what you mean.

``SIMI promotes the violent dissolution of the country, which is against the law.`` And the destruction of Masajid? is....? not violent? will not lead to dissolution? Courts are a remedy you say, but not for SIMI? Fro RSS, Bajrand Dal, Shiv Sena? Again don`t misunderstand me, I honor the civil course you seek, yet I question if such a course will be efficacious against fascist thugs.

Remember the Prime Minister of India calls the destruction of the Babri ``an expression of national will`` - Clearly these statements do not alarm you, but will you not be mindful of those to whom not just alarm but action is called for?

ISI Check? - It`s in the mail.

``There is no one trend in any country – certainly as true of Pakistan as of India.``

Yes, correct, but some trends are clearly more distinguished than others. Listen, you can disagree with this author or myself or anybody, but it`s just smart to not dismiss the general sense that comes through.

``What makes you think we have to abandon any portion of our history and culture? And how does our history and culture differ from other Indians` history and culture? Aren’t they the same? How are they different?``

The point of the article is just that that Muslims history and culture is under attack in India. I know you will not not buy that. Again, India has many histories and many cultures. It is only in the last 54 years that it has had the task to create what can be called a version of history that can help in it crafting a vision of a single peoples. Let`s take history in America as an example, where is the indigenous American and why? Could it have been different? why not?

``Kya kahthe ho bhai?``

This is a kindness you do me and I am grateful. I may be no friend, but I not a foe either.

Re Eklavya

If anybody can be as far removed from a techno type, it is moi. In fact, my understanding of hindi is slightly better than my understanding of technology, especially physics, and to begin with, my hindi is good enough only to hail a cab in a North Indian city, at the most.

There is an excellent op-ed piece in today`s Wall Street Journal print edition [Oct 24] by Amir Taheri, an Iranian journalist who is based in Paris. I am not going to name it here because the usual apologists will spout their usual apoloties/denials. Then let us discuss it. Unfortunately it is not on their free site.

Banjara Guru ji,

I have some questions for you. Does the word ``ast`` mean ``is`` in Persian? If it does, how do you say ``are`` in Persian?

Dhanya vad.

#187 Sadhana

OK, so you are NOT a secularist.

If merely telling someone not to shoot the messenger is shooting that someone, well then, you have just shot me. It`s your turn now..

Sure you laid out your problems with the article in #27 & # 28. Why then #50+? Wasn`t that a tad, hmmm, mean-spirited? Just like the posts on Sulekha that call YOU a paki?

Who am i to tell you all this? You don`t mean that really, do you? After all, i am THE soysauce..

I posted the ``4 Point Plan`` of Imam Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi rahmatullah alayhi in post 106 but I misquoted it due to errors in memory. Here is the ACTUAL 4 point plan of Ala Hazrat.

[

``..A‘lahazrat through his book published in 1912, presented four peerless points for the economic development of Muslim brethren. These are:

* * * *

1. Barring the affairs wherein Government is involved, the Muslims should decide all their disputes mutually so that millions of rupees, which are being spent over litigations, may be saved.

2. The affluent Muslims of Bombay, Calcutta, Rangoon, Madras and Hyderabad should open banks for other poor Muslims.

3. Muslims should not purchase anything from anybody except Muslims.

4. The sciences of Islam should be propagated and publicized,

* * * * * *

At the instance Prof. Rafiullah Siddiqui Chairman Board of Intermediate and Secondary Education Hyderabad (Sindh), has written an article ``Fazil-i-Bareillvi Kay Char Ma‘ashi Nikaàt``, published from Maktaba-i-Chashm-i-Rahmat, Balrampur (UP), India. Prof. Siddiqui has beautifully explained all the four points at length; I have had all the appreciation for Prof. Siddiqui and his article.

Through his first point, A‘lahazrat has propounded the theory of savings. He has realized the significance of savings and has made people to realize it. In most of the under-developed countries, the rate of saving varies from 5 to 8%. Now the economic experts have declared that for economic development of the country, saving to the tune of 15% of the national income is a must. The importance of savings over-shadowed the world in 1936 when Lord J.M. Keynes of England presented his ``Theory of Savings & Investment``, which proved successful in overcoming the international depression. In short, according to Keynes, saving is all. It is equal to investment according to his Equation. Thus, more saving, more investment; more investment, more development. For this theory of Saving & Investment, Prof. J. M. Keynes was honored by England and the most prestigious title of ``Lord`` was conferred on him. Prof. Rafiullah Siddiqui has so nicely and so rightly quipped that Prof. J. M. Keynes was honored in 1936 for what was already pointed out by A‘lahazrat in 1912. Who deserved and who bagged the honor, is thus to be seen. Yet, it may be taken for granted that A‘lahazrat would not accept such an honor from British even if he were presented one.

Secondly, A‘lahazrat presented the theory of opening banks. Needless to mention that banks in the eyes of A‘lahazrat were meant to be interest-free banks. History of banking is known to all of us. A‘lahazrat suggested and talked of opening banks at a time when banks played no significant role in the country. In 1912, there were only a few banks in India, in big cities, and nobody could foresee then that after a lapse of three or four decades, the importance of banks would assume so much proportion. No doubt, it was A‘lahazrat who was able to peep into future and suggest boosting up the banking industry before hand.

A bank is an institution through which the savings of the masses are deployed over productive investment. It is bank that collects pennies but provides pounds. Banks help the people create tendency of saving. Being a great economist. A‘lahazrat well realized the hazards of hoarding and advocated for the development of the banking industry.

The third point of A‘lahazrat is that Muslims should purchase each and every thing from Muslims only. Apparently, this point appears to be based on somewhat narrow-mindedness. But it is not so, if we go deep. What A‘lahazrat says is that Muslims should purchase from Muslims only. It is not restricted to a particular place, locality or province. It means that Muslims countries should purchase from Muslim countries only. It means that A‘lahazrat has opposed the free-trade theory as espoused by Adam Smith and suggested Trade Protection so as to withstand the competition in the international market. Fredrick List, a noted German economist has emphatically supported the Trade Protection Policy. Prof. Rafiullah Siddiqui has very much appreciated this point of A‘lahazrat. According to him, A‘lahazrat wanted to provide economic protection to Muslims but the Muslims neglected the economic acumen highlighted by their own savant, A‘lahazrat.

To the misfortune of Muslims, what was pinpointed by A‘lahazrat for the benefit of Muslims, was utilized by non-Muslims. Second World War had badly ruined Germany, France, Italy etc. The economy of these European countries was crippled. European Common Market (E.C.M) consisting of six European countries came into existence. It achieved marvelous success and the entire World witnessed that it changed the entire story. The staggering economy of these countries mustered a sudden boom and the German mark became the powerful currency of the world. After all, what was this E.C,M.? It was a practical shape of the guidelines given by A‘lahazrat just on the lines that Muslims should make purchases from Muslims only. Even today, if the Muslim countries unite and follow such a policy, luck will smile upon them.

Now come to the fourth point. It is regarding the publicity of Islamic sciences. When theories of economics are going on, how far it is desirable to talk of Islamic sciences or religion. A Mawlawi always remains a Mawlawi-some people may think. Prof. Siddiqui has duly appreciated the importance of knowledge of Islamic sciences but meanwhile he has gone to say that this fourth point is not in regard to economics. With due respect to Prof. Siddiqui, I would like to say that he has hastened to observe like so, perhaps because of its appearance. Prof. Siddiqui has succeeded in realizing the importance of this point but has failed to link it with economic theories.

To my mind, this point is all the more important. Everybody knows that there is lot of difference between theory and practice. Implementation is an upheaval task. The first three points of A‘lahazrat provide a theoretical approach. The fourth one provides a pragmatic approach. It must be borne in mind that A‘lahazrat has introduced what we may call Muslim Economics. He has talked of benefit and betterment of only Muslims. From this angle, all the four points are inter-connected. The first point of A‘lahazrat is regarding mutual settlement of their disputes. The idea is so nice but its implementation is fairly difficult. As says Adam Smith, ``man is the born servant of self interest``. Everybody wants to gain. Nobody wants to lose. In quest of gain, man runs after the courts headlong. He runs and runs towards the courts till he gets a gain what he calls justice. Such a race towards the gain makes the litigation time-consuming as well as money-consuming. Now A‘lahazrat speaks of preaching and teaching Islamic sciences to the people. He means to say that spirit of Islam must prevail upon the Muslims. A‘lahazrat goes to say that such an abrupt race of litigation can be controlled only with the spirit of Islam. Under true spirit of Islam, Muslims shall prefer to get their disputes decided only by their Muftis whom they would consider as heirs of Holy Prophet and regarding Holy Prophet (Allah’s Grace and Peace be upon him), the Holy Qur’an declares as under:-

``By Allah, they shall not be Muslims unless they make you Hàkim in matter of their disputes and unless they accept your decision by heart and feel no hindrance whatsoever there from in their hearts.``

Thus, a true Muslim shall be duly satisfied with the decision of a Mufti regardless of the fact whether he remains a gainer or loser. He would accept the decision by heart. Nor would he take it as point of prestige, as a true Muslim wants nothing but what Allah and His Holy Prophet (Allah’s Grace and Peace be upon him) want for him. He would not knock at the doors of the court at all. A short meeting with a Mufti can solve a long dispute. Thus, it would be seen that the fourth point advanced by A‘lahazrat is very much linked with the theory of mutual settlements Muslims by avoiding litigation with a view to ensuring large savings.

The second point is of opening Muslim banks. Muslims would like to help Muslims only when they are taught to help them in terms of Islamic sciences, that is, in light of Holy Qur’an and Hadith. Interest is a prize of exploitation. Muslims would refrain from accepting interest if they are told that usury is haram (strictly forbidden) according to Holy Qur’an and whosoever accepts interest, should be ready to fight with Allah on the Day of Judgment. Only through the injunction of Islamic spirit, which flows from the knowledge of Islamic sciences attained through the study of Islamic books or through the company of Islamic savants, Muslims can agree to opening of interest-free banks and usury can be put an end to. If the rich people open banks out of their riches, the poor people will get rid of their poverty to a great extent. First, the poor will be able to get employment in various projects financed by banks. Secondly, the poor section will be able to secure interest-free loans from the banks, which they would get otherwise at a heavy rate of interest. Thus, the second and fourth points of A‘lahazrat are well linked together.

Muslims should make purchases from Muslims only — is the third point. It does not purport to say that Muslims should sell to Muslims only. A‘lahazrat is restricting outgoings only of Muslims. Unless the Muslims are taught of their religion, nothing can be achieved in this field. A person, who has no knowledge of Islamic studies, is western-minded, would hardly purchase anything from Muslims. He would be addicted to using foreign goods and would not hesitate to purchase them from any corner. Nowadays, it is seen that those who have craze for using foreign goods, may it be, cigarette, wine or anything like that, help the foreign companies earn a lot of foreign exchange. A Muslim would make purchases from Muslims only when it is impressed upon him that Holy Qur’an declares:

(Space for Arabic script) ``Innam al-Mo’minoona Ikhwatun``

That is, ``Muslim and a Muslim are brethren.`` Unless he treats the other Muslim as his brother, he would not extend him a brotherly-treatment. Moreover the teachings of Islam shall bear wide repercussions on the standard of trade. No trader would like to give short weight as it is forbidden in Islam. No trader would make any adulteration of any kind, as it is forbidden in Islam. No trader would try to conceal defect, if any, in his commodity as it is forbidden in Islam. No trader would resort to unnecessary hoarding of stock as it is forbidden in Islam. No trader would allow unnecessary bargaining in price as it is forbidden in Islam. In this manner, under the yoke of Islam, trade will wear a bloomy look. If Muslims undertake to make purchases from Muslims only and if Islamic spirit prevails, then a Muslim will not be able to get wine, because no Muslim would like to sell it as it is forbidden in Islam. In this way, not only the trade will flourish but it will also bring about a flawless society.

So, it is evident that all the four points of A‘lahazrat are coherent and co-related insofar as Muslim Economics is concerned...``

endquote from www.sunnirazvi.org (an excellent site).

I still maintain this is the way to Muslim revival in India and elsewhere insha Allah..

please disregard my earlier post 106. (If possible the moderator should delete post 106 of mine).

http://paknews.com/articles.php?id=1&date1=2001-10-23

Well, well. Our own YLH screaming away on other web-sites.

Apparently, chowk is not enough.

Harimau.

In your post to YLH you seem to be mistaken about certain things.

``So long as that is not being done in India, your co-religionists have far more rights than the Hindus had for 1000 years under the heel

of Islamic thugs.``

History is filled with brutal rule of the strong over the weak. And to an extent Indian History is out to demonize anything ancient and non-hindu. Whatever is sustainable and usefull doesn`t go away. One great example is that Yoga still survives. And I think it does because it is not so closely bound to religion.

I feel that a foreign intrusion in those times were very important in building a stable and modern society today. Afghanistan was largely kept rural since the beginning, and faced no internal or external pressure to change, do better, and exploit dormant human or material resources. There is a lot of cultural diversity in India today because of that. Don`t you consider that a national asset or are you one of the people who spat at the Taj in protest? One more thing, Brutality is just that. It is not justifiable under any circumstances. If it has been done to your forefathers, quit getting a perverse pleasure out of being a victim because it is too far fetched.

``So shut up about the treatment of minorities in India. They have your country to go to if they don`t like it in India but I don`t see a

line in front of the Pakistan High Commission for visas.``

Some really ignorant people think that Pakistan should hold and house every non-Pakistani who happens to be a Muslim in order to justify its existence. Your statements are a representation of a vast majority of Indians who have nothing but suspicion for the Indian Muslims. If a Pakistani would have said the same thing about Hindus in Pakistan, you would have made this an international issue of human rights violations.

Later,

Aisha

Eklavya #212 :

``Girl, that`s some class.``

Man! How gay can you get?

Sadna,

Why are you giving lectures on ``ignoring`` People and continuing to write, when you always sneak in a ``Sarwari`` here a there in almost every attempt to say something?

If I was your grandmother I would make sure you get married to someone as unpleasent as Rsaxena so that only one house gets messed up insted of two. And I don`t need your comments on that Thank you.

And if you are married apologize to your husband for me. And don`t you give me lectures about getting personal because you always make stupid comments about the way I`ve been raised. Gosh I was just saying you won`t be as frustrated if you have Tariq Road`s ``Goul Guppey``

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari

Email me I am not done yet...

aisha_Sarwari@yahoo.com

soysauce #230
`` OK, so you are NOT a secularist.``

I didnot say that. I said I am not a ``self-professed`` one as you accused me of being. We are what we are by our actions and words, I donot believe in labels. (OK, Paki is a label, I will come to that.)

``If merely telling someone not to shoot the messenger is shooting that someone, well then, you have just shot me. It`s your turn now.. Sure you laid out your problems with the article in #27 & # 28. Why then #50+? Wasn`t that a tad, hmmm, mean-spirited? Just like the posts on Sulekha that call YOU a paki?``

soysauce, I posted a lot of material on why I suspected the author to have an agenda, and why I suspected he was not an Indian Muslim because he ``seems`` ignorant of facts vital to an Indian Muslim`s view of India`s secularism (such as it is). You on the other hand, are shooting at me because of one line in one post.

Turns out I was not far wrong about the `slant` of the article. The article was apparently written for a non-Indian website on which I have seen other anti-India articles. You can read his other articles there. Everyone has to make a living, as does this author.

But according to me, Indians speaking to each other or on the communal issue in India, have to accept the basic premise that Hindus and Muslims can live together. I consider whose who donot accept this basic premise are Pakistan-sympapthizers or Pakistanis at heart, irrespective of their religion. I have called Hindus who seem to reject this premise (of Hindus and Muslims being able to live together) Pakistanis or Pakistani/TNT sympathizers, and I donot see why I should not call Muslims that too, if they donot accept this basic premise at the core of the Indian nation(though I would do that with much more circumspection I assure you).

btw, this article raises many issues(and contains many inaccuracies). Your valiant defence of Indian secularism would be better achieved by concentrating on those, looking for defects in a single person like myself cannot achieve very much in this regard, I am already trying to do the best I can, though you have no value for it.

sarwari #235
`` Why are you giving lectures on ``ignoring`` People and continuing to write, when you always sneak in a ``Sarwari`` here a there in almost every attempt to say something? ``

Which lecture? I ``sneaked in`` one ``sarwari, ylh, scout`` on this board. But you and others have done it so often with `sadna` when I was not even on the board, I seem to remember? And your views on Indians and their treatment of minorities have been very openly expressed by you often in colorful language. So why this double standard and outrage both?

btw, your post on `double minority` was a good one.


``How you`ve been raised``
Do I do that in response to something you say to me or just out of the blue?


`` If I was your grandmother I would make sure you get married to someone as unpleasent as Rsaxena so that only one house gets messed up insted of two. And I don`t need your comments on that Thank you. And if you are married apologize to your husband for me. And don`t you give me lectures about getting personal because you always make stupid comments about the way I`ve been raised. Gosh I was just saying you won`t be as frustrated if you have Tariq Road`s ``Goul Guppey````

Why is it always sexual innuendos and insults with you and ali1? I am just noticing, I donot really want to know, I assure you.

``Email me I am not done yet...``
Dial an insult? Be brave, say it here in open forum. Rule 0 of discussion forums : Donot ask those whom you are cursing to mail you for more.

hobbyt #224
`` The Islamist work That I have presented and will present is actually leading up to an understanding for the efficacy of such a objective secularism, one which has as it`s foundation, religious pluralism and freedom of conscience based on universal moral principles of Islam.``

``that even if Indian Muslims had a choice to become Pakistanis, psychologically, it would be very difficult for them to make the leap from appeasemen to a position of strong defense of Islamic identity in India. What choices and course of action(s) this leaves Indian Muslims is for them decide. Freedom is never free. ``

hobbyt, just a question. Isn`t Pakistan supposed to be THE worked out example of ``one which has as it`s foundation, religious pluralism and freedom of conscience based on universal moral principles of Islam.`` on the subcontinent ? Is the noble purpose accomplished in Pakistan, do you think ?

Shahid:

You are seeing things more than there is. But it`s futile to blame you. Because if you are going to magnify the problems and live under it, you are bound to see only dark clouds and doom.

Both Hindus and Muslims carry the burden of history and it shows in the way both the communities react when confronted with difficult questions. The riot situation is not as one-sided as you would have us believe. Do you think absence of police would lead to less violence (riots)? Don`t you think police WILL resort to firing if the protesters turn violent( I don`t deny recent accusations though)? Why is it that some of the most riot prone areas have significant Muslim population?Ahmedabad, Kanpur, Hyderabad or Kashmir for that matter. If hindus and our police are really out to exterminate Muslims, we should be having killings in almost every town and every state in India. I agree we are not even close to being a tolerant society. And secularism that we keep chanting is a farce. But that there is a huge population out there eager to embrace secularism is also true. We must recognise that there exist problems between the two communities. And Bajrang Dal,VHP,SIMI are all there to play on such differences. Sooner we accept the problems, easier it will be to address the difficulties . Agreed our society is changing and there will be an eventual confrontation with fundamentalists (of whom there will be muslims and hindus); it is upto us to strengthen the better elements. Instead of complaining and becoming distraught, we must make an unprejudiced and frank attempt to confront.

Sadna: You must already be geared to face many asking to ``exercise restraint``. But I know you are still in ``Bootstrap mode`` of the faith.

You are good in this mode too. :)

I went to the site that u mentioned(truthindia). One can`t help lauding the attempts of the person.

Pullu

#234 InYourFace

Completely out of curiosity - is that established gay talk?

re: InYourFace # 234

How can I know that until I have met you and examined your backside?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

gowardhan 211

Zafar Al-Talib 219:

My statement was ``Any attempt by Muslim minorities in India at secession and to practice Islam beyond the personal realm should be met with maximum force.``

My statement was in context of the bad examples set up by a wide range of contemporary Muslim states ranging from secular Indonesia/Turkey to Islamic Sudan/Saudi Arabia.

My point was two fold - secession and religion in public life.

Indian Muslims had one chance at secession. That was in 1947. A lot of other Hindu groups could claim that they never had a chance at self-determination.

Hinduism and Hindus have done a relatively good job of adapting to modern public life all around the world in spite of casteism and other social practices. (United Kingdom, USA, Malayasia, Singapore) Even when injustices are done like in Sri Lanka, the LTTE does not invoke religion to wage war. Religion and politics are kept separate. Muslims in the Islamic heartland (Morocco to Indonesia) seem to have major problems. There are a few exceptions like the PLO, Kurds, Berbers etc.

Right now there are no Indian Muslims attempting secession. In the future if there are grievances they must make sure

1) never call be the first to call for secession

2) keep religion out of any legitimate struggle

Re: sarwari

``If I was your grandmother I would make sure you get married to someone as unpleasent as Rsaxena so that only one house gets messed up insted of two.``

I`ve already contacted your local animal care center to offer you and your hubby-to-be a free neutering...public service measure.

re: Zafar & Harimau

Harimau, I do not know you well enough to judge where you are coming from. So the following may not (probably does not) apply to you.

Zafar, in India we have a LOT of people (more Hindus than Muslims since the former constitute the majority) who share the cant-trust-the-other attitude. These people are the source of our greatest weakness. This weakness is internal, native, our very own. It is real. It is better, for me, for you, and for all Indians, to be cognizant of it than to underestimate it in any way, shape, or form.

re: hobbyty # 224

Hobbyty,

I agree with you that Indians, in general, have not thought more deeply about the issue of religion. How, in your view, can India and Pakistan better organize their polities to reflect and promote the kind of secularism you advocate? What specific changes would you suggest in Indian and Pakistani constitutions?

re: Faiza # 225

Faiza,

It is not easy to take many people along. It is very very difficult, particularly for those of us who have animalistic passions raging within us. The instinctive response is to hit back harder than the other can take, to demean, to destroy, to asperse, to generalize, to descend into questioning the legitimacy of the other`s birth, or doubting the morals of the other`s spouse, worse, mother.

I don`t know how others manage to maintain their cool, but for me, it is a constant, unending struggle. I don`t always succeed. Those who do have all my respect.

re: dost-mittar # 238

Dost-mittar,

If Hobbyty has some concrete ideas to suggest, we ought to gladly listen to him. Your query, therefore, is a valid one.

LIVE TRUTH AND DEAD JIHADIST

It has become quite common fpr the pak army, to disown their own. Return of the kargill invasion.

Pak disowns Harkat dead

Mubashir Zaidi and Agencies

(Islamabad/New Delhi, Oct 24)





Despite an official ban by Islamabad against letting in the bodies of 35 Pakistani militants killed by US airstrikes in Afghanistan, eight of the corpses were on their way to Rawalpindi and Karachi for burial on Wednesday night.

All the dead were members of the terrorist group Harkat-ul-Mujahideen

Harimau #189

``Your heroes, the Muslim sultans of Delhi, not only destroyed every single temple in Northern India, they terrorized the priests to such an extent that even in the tiny little temples that Hindus built to practice their faith surreptitiously, there were no pujas according to the scriptures for close to 30 generations.``

``So long as that is not being done in India, your co-religionists have far more rights than the Hindus had for 1000 years under the heel of Islamic thugs.``

We will not let the crimes of the DEAD revisit the LIVING. Get off playing the victim, for chrissakes. Its been a long time since. You arent doing anyone a favour by letting them live in India. Now shoo, go back into the hole you came from.

xxabbu

#236 Sadhana

``But according to me, Indians speaking to each other or on the communal issue in India, have to accept the basic premise that Hindus and Muslims can live together. I consider whose who donot accept this basic premise are Pakistan-sympapthizers or Pakistanis at heart, irrespective of their religion. I have called Hindus who seem to reject this premise (of Hindus and Muslims being able to live together) Pakistanis or Pakistani/TNT sympathizers, and I donot see why I should not call Muslims that too, if they donot accept this basic premise at the core of the Indian nation(though I would do that with much more circumspection I assure you).``

I have seen you make this point elsewhere also. The issue of hindus & muslims being able to live together is a complicated one from the pov`s of both hindus & muslims. The real question, i think, is can hindus & muslims live together as hindus & muslims? To many hindus (an alarmingly increasing number) it is possible provided muslims aren`t quite, ahem, muslim. Many of these (by & large well-intentioned, not RSS, VHP types) believe that a uniform civil code is a necessity. This i think is the result of increasing polarization/politicization at the subconscious level. The problems are who frames that code, how much of the muslim code (personal law, common law, etc.) would be included in such, etc. A lot of the serious obstacles are swept under and it`s the muslim indian who is accused of being in the way of enacting UCC. I suspect that to the muslim community talk of UCC is the first step in stripping them off their muslimness. You`d allow, i hope, that even many self-professed (there`s that term again, well, i do profess to be a secularist)secularists, want a UCC. In many ways india faces difficulties that no other nation has faced in trying reconcile divergent cultures under a single flag. I don`t know what the answer is. I think tho that ``anyone who doesn`t believe that hindus & muslims can live together is a paki`` is a bit too facile. There are always conditions laid down for such a coexistence at the conscious or subconscious level and they are not the usual social contract thing either.

sadna,

``its hard for me to ignore that you`re the one of those who turns up to defend ali1 after his beautiful and classy posts. However, this will not prevent me from replying to him whenever he deserves it.``

have i asked you not to answer ali`s posts? no i have not.. all i asked was for you to stop referring to my country as pukistan..like i also pointed out, its below you..if ever there was any doubt about your one sidedness, its this..pukistan indeed..

god bless and help you

Reply Hobbyty # 224

“After which my beautiful bride cleverly managed to change the subject to events and trends in Pakistan.”

Bhaijaan, if you chat with guests the way you sometimes post on Chowk I am convinced that Bhabhiji has her work cut out for her.

:-)

“So many Indians on these boards swear by their version of secularism. A version in which promises to create an Indian Identity but which from my perspective, is dedicated to creating culturally Hindu Indian identity.”

Hinduism IS part of India’s identity. But so is Islam, and Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Sikhism….of course kebabs are more important, but still.

“A cheap shot, Unworthy of you, because you could have dealt with the substance of my response not the validity of my right to a point of view.”

Nahin, dekhiye, ghussa math hona….uff, Hobbyty, ek hi panga mara poore post men…

“.. I honor the civil course you seek, yet I question if such a course will be efficacious against fascist thugs.”

If we allow fascist thugs to define our world views, they have in a very profound way won the contest to shape the world.

“ISI Check? - It`s in the mail.”

Thank you, thank you, sirji, thwadda paani seva karunga…

“…I may be no friend...”

Be ashamed Hobbyty. That was nasty.

Zafar

Reply Bapu #:229

Deepika/Lajwanti/Fatimah/whatever

“You are the one who has written about 10 posts on Sulekha deriding that Islam does not have INTROSPECTION,I dont believe that.”

You are obviously working under the assumption that if you throw enough muck it will stick. Apna aim sahi karthe tho shayad…

But now that you mention it, I thought the writing style of “American Psychiatrist” sounded very familiar. Was that you? Are you now posting under the name of “American Psychiatrist”?

More power to you if you are! I take it as a salute to the idea of academic achievement.

Zafar

PS Joke tho nahin thha? If so LOLROTFL (!!!) great sense of humour, you really had me going there.

anNy #252
``pukistan indeed.. god bless and help you``

`Interacting` with many chowk Pakistanis on this board has led me to this honest conclusion. And I certainly hope I am one-sided, its better than being a hypocrite.

soysauce #251
`` The issue of hindus & muslims being able to live together is a complicated one from the pov`s of both hindus & muslims. The real question, i think, is can hindus & muslims live together as hindus & muslims?``

According to me at the basic level, its not. The parameters for `living` together are already broadly laid out in the Constitution : Hindus and Muslims are supposed to be perfectly equal in sight of law, we have the same fundamental rights, the same right to safety of life and limb, we are indistinguishable in everything except the personal law and control of educational/religious institutions(if I am right). Anyone who does not believe these fundamentals in the Indian Constitution is a Paki, as far as I am concerned.

Now the question arises about things not so `fundamental`.. Suppose, as Imam Bukhari has once suggested, there is a demand for reserved seats in legislatures for Muslims. Well, this has to be looked into as a possible `solution` this may solve some problems, though I am very much inclined against retooling the relations of Hindu-Muslims at this level. And how about affirmative action. I come from a state which has had affirmative action for Muslims for many years, as all affirmative action, its a remedy for a time and place and I think it should be seriously considered in states which donot have them. I think the BJP was considering a poll alliance with a `backward Muslim` party in UP with promise of reservations.

`` A lot of the serious obstacles are swept under and it`s the muslim indian who is accused of being in the way of enacting UCC. I suspect that to the muslim community talk of UCC is the first step in stripping them off their muslimness. You`d allow, i hope, that even many self-professed (there`s that term again, well, i do profess to be a secularist)secularists, want a UCC``

The UCC (working towards which is a directive principle of the Constitution) can happen only with a national consensus. I spent a lot of time on Sulekha convincing myself that the BJP, who brought up the UCC issue is not serious/sincere about it. I say this because it has not reached out to the Muslim community or public at large to build up the support base required for a Constitutional amendment. I have not heard of BJP contacting any Muslim organisations to exchange point of views or get their support, even progressive Muslim organisations which may be in favor of UCC. I donot see BJP reaching out to public at large to disseminate information on the issue. I have not heard of any concerted Muslim membership drives in the BJP, or efforts to make Muslims feel more welcome in the BJP. I believe a responsible political party with belief in its manifesto and determination to make things happen should do all this if it claims to be interested in the welfare of the Muslim community. All I have heard(as a member of ordinary public) is accusations against the minorities related to UCC. Never heard of a law passed by recrimination, is this how you work toward 2/3 majority in Parliament and consent in state legislatures?

Hence I have reached the conclusion that the Hindutva parties are as indifferent about UCC as any such-minded imam say, except in their hypocrisy about it. For the Hindutva parties who claim to be thinking about equal rights for `poor Muslim women`, the UCC issue is a false issue, a tool of accusation only, to put minorities on the defensive and put a gloss on themselves, as in ``if you donot agree with us you are less Indian than us``.

As far as I am concerned, I am not playing their game. A need for UCC must come from inside the communities affected, and as Indians concerned about other Indians, as citizens we have to work for it, but through throwing light on and understanding the issues and reaching out, not through accusations.

DostMittar, Zafar

I did not mean it to apply to predominantly Christian, Jewish Hindu Buddhist, etc. countries, but to Pakistan specifically and Islamic countries generally.

“Wouldn`t it be enough if secularism is based on just universal moral principles without reference to any religion?” An example of the Subjective secularism, a profanation. (And a dead give away of our opposite approach) (And a call for a new religion?)

Dost, recall that the experience of secularization is not a new one. It was thought that religion would not survive secularization in the West. In Euro-Asia, a tragic experiment of secularization without religion was effected for some 70 years, if my numbers are correct. As soon as the experiment was over, religions not only emerged intact, but also look at the growth of the Orthodox Church and Islamic revival. Or look at the strength fo religion in the US. Something about religion creates an attachment, something about a spiritual void. Does it have to be an organized religion or spirituality? well, a rose of any other name, is the attitude I take with reference to that notion. After all, why has Hinduism, after multitude of changes, bending, flexing, branching, rationalized, intellectualized, demystified, still an powerful appeal to it’s adherents? It must be fulfilling some void that regardless of whatever challenges it faces, it reinvents, recasts itself and is again relevant to significant numbers of lives. This appeal is the spiritual voids it fills. Try and kill religion all you like, has not worked before or ever. Even your question “just universal moral principle” is call to fill that spiritual void; consider, where was such language and concepts first developed if not in religion?

Of course You have not asked me how minorities would fare, if we deviate from objective secularism and concentrate on Subjective secularism, that is profanation - I know you were saving this for later. I wish to make two interrelated points:

1. My contention that the emphasis on subjective secularism is used against Islam, in India. This is because it is susceptible to it, given its structure as an Abrahamic faith and the genus of secularism from within an Abrahamic faith. Hinduism is not susceptible similarly, as it does share the structure of the Abrahamic faiths. Indeed, to the degree that it can be said to be organized, a rather convincing argument can be made that it does not have a structure or that it has a very fluid structure. The same cannot be said of any Abrahamic faith. In the US, it is objective secularism that finds emphasis, with ACLU type organizations, performing both a watchdog and promoter of Subjective secularism role, curiously to ensure the differentiation in Objective secularism. In The Indian context, in my opinion, calls for cultural nationalism are precisely an attempt to marginalize Islam and the Indian Muslim experience. Profanation is inherent in the secularizing experience, yet it is the degree of such infiltration that is culturally important, as is reflected by the author.

I don’t want to be misunderstood on this point, Therefore, I want to emphasize that I am simply expressing an opinion and not a prescription for Indian society, culture, group or whatever. No offense intended to anyone.



2. This is a most interesting question and if you agree, lets set aside an approach from a view of religious pluralism, salvic pluralism leading to religious tolerance as a religious and societal value. Lets look at this again in the context of Objective and Subjective secularism.

Secularism is an example of modernization (a response to increasing complexity), in which differentiation of religion from economic and political institutions. This differentiation can also apply to the separation of religion from culture and conscience. Therefore there can be two meaning of secularism or alternately we can view it as a dichotomy of Objective versus Subjective secularism. On a psychological and cultural level, what was once sacred both in the psychological and in the cultural sense is now open to the profane.

What space then does religion or the sacral in this context occupy? Religious revivalism is effort to anticipate, adjust and respond to changes linked with the dichotomy and a response to profanation. Given the increasing complexity and the compartmentalization of experience, religion will not again be the same force or play the same role it did in society and in person’s lives. Therefore, you witness, an evolving religiosity, deeply private and yet ecumenical (Ummah). Revivalism is an apt description, because the renewed emphasis on purpose, order, justice, and salvation. Nevertheless, Why? With increasing complexity of life, religion offers it adherents a melieu to seek answers to the question of meaning in their lives. Perhaps, Perhaps, secular differentiation of institutions may be a function of religion (Kernel without the husk?)

Dost, I realize some of this is rambling but perhaps you will ideas to refine the thinking.

Zafar - please view my statement about the indian version of secularism win the context of the Objective and Subjective and tell me if it makes sense to you, Do you find any validity in as an analytical tool?

``Bhaijaan, if you chat with guests the way you sometimes post on Chowk I am convinced that Bhabhiji has her work cut out for her.``

I`m affraid it`s true. Need to change focus or go to school or something -

Honestly, I thought I didn`t send the post, because the grandmother thing was not very deep. That was mean: Rsaxena is known to have O.J instincts. But, anyway, thanks for appreciating my post, though I don`t know which one you are talking about.

``Dial an insult? Be brave, say it here in open forum. Rule 0 of discussion forums : Donot ask those whom you are cursing to mail you for more.``

I thought you are the one who complained about me telling you off on a public forum? :)

Later,

Aisha

Reply Soysauce # 251

Re: UCC

The acceptance of a UCC is often seen as an indicator of how Indian (or un-Indian) Indian Muslims are and wish to be – a largely symbolic issue. It may well be a symbolic issue for non-Muslim Indians or for Indian Muslim men, but for Indian Muslim women the lack of a UCC is something which causes concrete hardship. At its core it is a civil rights issue. This nebulously understood, and midievally defined, “separate Indian Muslim identity” is being payed for by the usual suspects and is being exploited for their own advantage by the usual suspects.

Zafar

re asif n 231

I understand that Amir-ul-Momineen Mullah Omar, Conqueror of Statues and Master of a Hundred Wives is looking for an Economics Minister. Make sure you apply. Since they don`t have much of an economics, you`d have plenty of time to write your own Mein Kampf too. Good luck

Reply Eklavya #: 246

“Zafar, in India we have a LOT of people (more Hindus than Muslims since the former constitute the majority) who share the cant-trust-the-other attitude. These people are the source of our greatest weakness. This weakness is internal, native, our very own. It is real. It is better, for me, for you, and for all Indians, to be cognizant of it than to underestimate it in any way, shape, or form.”

I agree Eklavya, but I think that asking people to examine WHY they hold certain beliefs is a good place to start.

Zafar

Reply Babu # 244

“Indian Muslims had one chance at secession. That was in 1947. A lot of other Hindu groups could claim that they never had a chance at self-determination.”

Now why isn’t living in a functioning democracy a realised chance at self-determination?

“Right now there are no Indian Muslims attempting secession.”

Let’s keep it that way. A good place to start would be to stop treating Indian Muslims differently from the way other Indians are treated. I also think that a functioning democracy is a good vehicle to resolve any problems a society experiences without violence.

Zafar