Terry Burns October 24, 2001
#1 Posted by fairdinkum on October 24, 2001 7:04:41 am
Dear Terry,
I have only been in Pakistan for few months and I can relate to a lot of what you have said.
However, I guess, these are my own people so I don`t feel as exhausted as you do... but then, in four years time, I might.
The deadly mix of power (denied to Mullahs since Pakistan’s inception) and religious extremism is more apparent in places like Lahore, Quetta, Karachi and Peshawar… Punjab and NWFP have traditionally provided leadership for religious extremists…. if you travel in say interior Sindh, it is not as nakedly visible… though Sindhi landlords are probably more vicious than Punjabi landlords… but overall, I guess you can safely conclude that in Pakistan wahabism has taken sunni religion by storm… Thanks to Gen. Zia, ISI, Osama, and Saudi Arabia … religious parties like JUI and JI could not get 2% of votes before the Gen. Zia… They still don’t get more than 5% of votes… but then, elections in Pakistan means nothing… the ruling elite maintain the status quo no matter what… and now mullahs are part of the power structure in our society… it must, however, be worrisome for Paki ruling elite that wahabis are now fighting for, as you put it, all or nothing in the Islamic world (including Pakistan)… they are prepared to use all possible means to achieve their objectives… they have their own interpretation of Islamic sharia including on matters relating to Jihad… there is nothing stopping them from killing innocent people (which is already in progress), and the next phase could be political assignations inside Pakistan… killing “others” brings you reward (in the hereafter) in wahabism… it is a worrying sign that they seems to be gaining significant ground in power structure of Pakistan… reports of their strong support within Army/ISI makes me wanna run away from this joint ASAP… still, the refusal of majority of people to join Mullahs in their current violent campaign does provide hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Hundreds of years ago, Shah Abdul Latif Bhatai warned us against the menace of religious extremism and Mullahs. I hope people turn to him for guidance rather than Osama.
I have only been in Pakistan for few months and I can relate to a lot of what you have said.
However, I guess, these are my own people so I don`t feel as exhausted as you do... but then, in four years time, I might.
The deadly mix of power (denied to Mullahs since Pakistan’s inception) and religious extremism is more apparent in places like Lahore, Quetta, Karachi and Peshawar… Punjab and NWFP have traditionally provided leadership for religious extremists…. if you travel in say interior Sindh, it is not as nakedly visible… though Sindhi landlords are probably more vicious than Punjabi landlords… but overall, I guess you can safely conclude that in Pakistan wahabism has taken sunni religion by storm… Thanks to Gen. Zia, ISI, Osama, and Saudi Arabia … religious parties like JUI and JI could not get 2% of votes before the Gen. Zia… They still don’t get more than 5% of votes… but then, elections in Pakistan means nothing… the ruling elite maintain the status quo no matter what… and now mullahs are part of the power structure in our society… it must, however, be worrisome for Paki ruling elite that wahabis are now fighting for, as you put it, all or nothing in the Islamic world (including Pakistan)… they are prepared to use all possible means to achieve their objectives… they have their own interpretation of Islamic sharia including on matters relating to Jihad… there is nothing stopping them from killing innocent people (which is already in progress), and the next phase could be political assignations inside Pakistan… killing “others” brings you reward (in the hereafter) in wahabism… it is a worrying sign that they seems to be gaining significant ground in power structure of Pakistan… reports of their strong support within Army/ISI makes me wanna run away from this joint ASAP… still, the refusal of majority of people to join Mullahs in their current violent campaign does provide hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Hundreds of years ago, Shah Abdul Latif Bhatai warned us against the menace of religious extremism and Mullahs. I hope people turn to him for guidance rather than Osama.
#2 Posted by Eklavya on October 24, 2001 6:39:24 pm
Dear Terry,
I am surprised that you left out the biggest landlords on the block - the generals. I mean, where is dear Musharraf in the list of Saddam, Benazir, and Vajapayee?
The last time I checked, the poor (OK, corrupt, evil, disgraced, looter, undemocratic, dictator, fill-in-the-blank) Benazir wasn`t currently holding power in Pakistan.
Terry, you and I would agree on a lot of things, but I wonder how well you know Pakistan or, for that matter, South Asia.
I am surprised that you left out the biggest landlords on the block - the generals. I mean, where is dear Musharraf in the list of Saddam, Benazir, and Vajapayee?
The last time I checked, the poor (OK, corrupt, evil, disgraced, looter, undemocratic, dictator, fill-in-the-blank) Benazir wasn`t currently holding power in Pakistan.
Terry, you and I would agree on a lot of things, but I wonder how well you know Pakistan or, for that matter, South Asia.
#3 Posted by bluenoon26 on October 24, 2001 6:39:24 pm
The author lives Pakistan - so he knows about the feudalism first hand. I have only heard about it. He is probably right. But he is dead worng assuming the same things in India. Very bad assumptions - I bet he has never been to India. There are no landlords in India - they are gone right after independence. Vajpayee is not a landlord nor he is rich. Heck - he doesn`t even have a family of his own being a confirmed bachelor. This is a well-known fact but somehow it has escaped the author. This itself shows his knowledge about India. Banding Benazir together with Vajpayee is absurd.
#4 Posted by FarzanaVersey on October 24, 2001 6:39:24 pm
Terry Burns!!
Give us a break, maan… you meet the feudal lords of our subcontinent and that is the first time you saw the barrel of a gun. Hah. Look at the gun culture in your schools and look at them kids in Harlem. As for our women continuing to “overindulge little tyrant boys”, in your country they do that with grown up boys too. What about Jack and Bill and now even Dubya?
And while I agree the female population has problems aplenty, don’t tell us your women don’t have any. After Jefferson took that kid slave girl as his mistress, you have been binding women – as Erin Brockovich getting ahead in life because of her cleavage or the Barbie doll who symbolizes your version of feminine truth or the Material Girl, who is diva and dominatrix but is yet expected to cower down to motherhood and her personal trainer.
Yes, men in our part of the world hold hands, but they do not take out gay parades to show how democratic they are. Yes, they squat to urinate, but they spare future users of urinals from the sight of yellow rivers left by aimless jerks. Yes, That man took haraam money from the US, but the US is doing its own ‘haraamipan’ by baiting the world. It has always ‘bought’ people, and has to still get rid of its ‘take as slaves’ mentality, whether it is countries, the United Nations or even cultures. You are right: America has no culture.
I am glad you have decided to bring up your adopted child Yasmeen as a Muslim. (Even Shintoism would do.) It shows some common sense. Now I only hope you don’t go around tom-tomming it as Yankee large-heartedness.
And, yes, you are “exhausted”. It shows. How about some Prozac?
Regards,
Farzana
Give us a break, maan… you meet the feudal lords of our subcontinent and that is the first time you saw the barrel of a gun. Hah. Look at the gun culture in your schools and look at them kids in Harlem. As for our women continuing to “overindulge little tyrant boys”, in your country they do that with grown up boys too. What about Jack and Bill and now even Dubya?
And while I agree the female population has problems aplenty, don’t tell us your women don’t have any. After Jefferson took that kid slave girl as his mistress, you have been binding women – as Erin Brockovich getting ahead in life because of her cleavage or the Barbie doll who symbolizes your version of feminine truth or the Material Girl, who is diva and dominatrix but is yet expected to cower down to motherhood and her personal trainer.
Yes, men in our part of the world hold hands, but they do not take out gay parades to show how democratic they are. Yes, they squat to urinate, but they spare future users of urinals from the sight of yellow rivers left by aimless jerks. Yes, That man took haraam money from the US, but the US is doing its own ‘haraamipan’ by baiting the world. It has always ‘bought’ people, and has to still get rid of its ‘take as slaves’ mentality, whether it is countries, the United Nations or even cultures. You are right: America has no culture.
I am glad you have decided to bring up your adopted child Yasmeen as a Muslim. (Even Shintoism would do.) It shows some common sense. Now I only hope you don’t go around tom-tomming it as Yankee large-heartedness.
And, yes, you are “exhausted”. It shows. How about some Prozac?
Regards,
Farzana
#5 Posted by veeresh on October 24, 2001 6:39:24 pm
. . . uh-oh, Mr. Burns, you`ve really REALLY gone and tattled now . . .
#6 Posted by overflow on October 24, 2001 6:39:24 pm
There seems to be a large hole in Mr.Burns` head. I feel sorry 4 Mr.B. I want to help him. Just like he`s ``helping`` Yasmeen. So I request anyone...preferrably a landlord (since Mr.B seems to have an obsession for them) to pump some lead into Mr.B`s head. This will hopefully plug the hole and stop the flow of brain leakage which is causing Mr.B to write utter crap.
Mr.B, you really ought to have mentioned the ample generosity and kindness Pakistanis possess.
Well, I feel much better after helping u. Going to bed now.
Pakistan Zindabaad.
Maryam Khan
Mr.B, you really ought to have mentioned the ample generosity and kindness Pakistanis possess.
Well, I feel much better after helping u. Going to bed now.
Pakistan Zindabaad.
Maryam Khan
#7 Posted by hobbyty on October 24, 2001 6:39:24 pm
Terry Burns
Dear exhausted:
An excellent and sad piece, with just a hint of the superior.
Agree with all points you make about the Pakistani elite (feudals), the politicians (feudals), the Mullahs (Feudals) and the women (Super Duper lumpen) but perhaps I have failed to judge correctly the spirit in which you make them.
Why is poverty and the lack of education not the enemy in the piece? material poverty, cultural poverty, of education, of spirit. Isn`t poverty the reason that government cannot hope to have a vision for universal education? Isn`t poverty the reason why corruption is learned and why feudalism can succeed in a globalized economy? Couldn`t we teach them to pee like real men? Sunnat. Phrruph, who needs Sunnat?
Feudalism - who in Pakistan does not know this to be the primary social, economic and political problem in Pakistani society? Who does not despise it? from the leftist, sieze their property to the right wing religious based argument that one may not dispossess the property, to industrialization to break the hold of the feudal, nothing has worked, only education and economic opportunity will and that requires capital resources. And who in Pakistan does not know that the Westernized Pakistani liberal is the partner of the feudal?
Why do you refer to yourself as a ``ghora``? Why was that acceptable to you? How excellent, the ``Angraez`` have gone, but not our hostility towards them, Shades of ``Western Whores`` which dove tails nicely into the ``they would be anti American anyways`` bit.
As for the anti-Americanism bit - now you decide to wake up to it? And it`s all the fault of these feudals, Mullahs and the filthy ingrate Saudi and his Wahabiism? Anericans and their `if you want to love me, first love my Israeli`` policy is not to blame for anti-Americanism (hey, that was then, this is now); it`s all a crock anyways, if it wasn`t Israel, it would be something else, India. And anyway, God forbid the oil spigots fall into hands less benevolent than those of the Americans. Terry, the rule that applies in all Muslim countries is if you want to love me, love Islam first. Anything less, is unacceptable.
Pakistani nukes in the hands of the super landlord? nukes in the hands of the Israeli have not inflamed the pathetic Arab as yet, why would it inflame the Muslim in India? nukes safe in India, Israel, Russia - oops, forgot, they are not Muslims, not suseptable to being ``inflamed``.
And of course it is ``caste`` when the ``little landlords`` look to any landlord other than an American? What else - ``Our SOB`` is alwas better than any other kind of SOB.
Failure of all Muslim polities to provide a sense of direction and purpose to their populations and national endeavors, and their complete failure to provide sustained material uplift is a strong component of anti Americanism - wish you had explored it more.
``Democracy`` - not the substance of it? what will the Sethi`s think of you? Bush at Bob Jones U - yeah but it not the same as Reverend XYZ, praising Israel for using F16`s against ``terrorists``. Islam bad, bad, bad!
Religion clearly didn`t start all of this, its only a tool in the conflicts and contradictions. So what really in your opinion and experience is the reason for so much of what you have experienced in Pakistan? Feudalism? Isn`t that a symptom of the problem? If it`s not just one over arching reason but several, what are they? I mean we all know it stinks, but is the root of it all?
Don`t leave Pakistan. I wonder if you would have imparted the same sense if you would quit the job you have and get a job in a State school, with a State school salary and the living quarters of State School salaried teacher. Walk in those shoes a while, as an experiment, as research, no, not a ``My Burden in Pakistan`` but a piece to reflect Pakistan from a more empathetic persepective. More ingrates? well, not necessarily.
#8 Posted by Godot on October 24, 2001 6:39:24 pm
This is without a doubt one of the best articles to appear on Chowk. We need more of these if we are to make South Asia a better place. The only drawback is that it is written by a gora and not a native. Well!!!
Thank you Terry for sharing your thoughts with us and speaking the truth. Well done.
Thank you Terry for sharing your thoughts with us and speaking the truth. Well done.
#9 Posted by jagdeep on October 24, 2001 6:39:24 pm
Dear Terry
A good article which describes the true state of our societies.
But why blame only the small time landlords and not the global ones Both have the same interests.
The exploitation and igniting of religious sentiments is a game the big landlords also play ( and they are much better at it) when it suits their political/economic interests. The political need for rallying forces in the name of ‘Jehad’ against infidels who were destroying ‘our’ culture and ‘corrupting’ our women by sending them to schools and colleges, exposing them to the world etc etc has been the main cause of resurgence of religious fundamentalism in this part of the world. And once this gene is out of the bottle it is very difficult to put it back. Zia, ISI, Osama, Saudi etc is a good list but is incomplete without the big brothers.
Give due ‘credit’ where it belongs.
And don’t forget the great people who inspite of all this have not lost their heads and at the first chance they get will kick these mullahs and pandits up their proverbial.
A good article which describes the true state of our societies.
But why blame only the small time landlords and not the global ones Both have the same interests.
The exploitation and igniting of religious sentiments is a game the big landlords also play ( and they are much better at it) when it suits their political/economic interests. The political need for rallying forces in the name of ‘Jehad’ against infidels who were destroying ‘our’ culture and ‘corrupting’ our women by sending them to schools and colleges, exposing them to the world etc etc has been the main cause of resurgence of religious fundamentalism in this part of the world. And once this gene is out of the bottle it is very difficult to put it back. Zia, ISI, Osama, Saudi etc is a good list but is incomplete without the big brothers.
Give due ‘credit’ where it belongs.
And don’t forget the great people who inspite of all this have not lost their heads and at the first chance they get will kick these mullahs and pandits up their proverbial.
#10 Posted by harimau on October 24, 2001 6:39:24 pm
YLH:
There goes your propaganda about how LaWhore is so cosmopolitan and that there is no religious extremism in the heartland of Pakistan.
Weep for your country.
PS. Did you use to slap your mom around when you were a little boy?
There goes your propaganda about how LaWhore is so cosmopolitan and that there is no religious extremism in the heartland of Pakistan.
Weep for your country.
PS. Did you use to slap your mom around when you were a little boy?
#11 Posted by Eklavya on October 24, 2001 6:39:24 pm
Everyone please visit this link. It could actually save your life.
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/102301.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/102301.htm
#12 Posted by cbaral on October 24, 2001 6:39:24 pm
I have never been to Pakistan so i can not really
comment on your observations on Pakistan.
But i am appalled that you drag India and its Prime minister Mr. Vajpayee into this letter
in many inappropriate places.
No one before you has ever accussed Mr. Vajpayee of being a landlord. The Pakistani papers such as Dawn praised him for his honesty and statesmanship when he was elected.
Except perhaps when you mention Kashmir, your reference to India in the other places is misplaced.
I wonder if your mention of India is based on first-hand knowledge (through a visit).
cbaral
#13 Posted by narain on October 24, 2001 6:39:24 pm
How did teaching in Lahore educate the author about the conditions which prevail in India, Iran, Iraq and Indonesia? Is it the ``tired gora`s`` way of saying ``seen em one, seen em all``?
-narain
-narain
#14 Posted by Kiran- on October 24, 2001 6:39:24 pm
Mr. Burns:
Let me be the first Pakistani to acknowledge that everything you say is the truth, however there must be something that`s been keeping you there for 4 years now? Or is it merely the clutches of a hurriedly-signed contract that have trapped you?
Pakistan`s negative aspects aside, I`m interested in what you like about the country?
Regards,
Kiran
Let me be the first Pakistani to acknowledge that everything you say is the truth, however there must be something that`s been keeping you there for 4 years now? Or is it merely the clutches of a hurriedly-signed contract that have trapped you?
Pakistan`s negative aspects aside, I`m interested in what you like about the country?
Regards,
Kiran
#15 Posted by soysauce on October 24, 2001 6:39:24 pm
A very strange perspective. Sounds like you haven`t stepped out of pakistan or for that matter lahore. Have you ever been to india? The ``Vajpayees``, indeed!
What was that about Muhammad, the metaphorical koran and hindu landlords? I missed that one too. You are either way too profound or profoundly confused.
I strongly believe that outsider perspective is essential for a civilization to progress. But not just any outsider - someone with a keen eye and who knows when to generalize and when not to. You fail on both counts.
What was that about Muhammad, the metaphorical koran and hindu landlords? I missed that one too. You are either way too profound or profoundly confused.
I strongly believe that outsider perspective is essential for a civilization to progress. But not just any outsider - someone with a keen eye and who knows when to generalize and when not to. You fail on both counts.
#16 Posted by rohit on October 24, 2001 6:39:24 pm
your experience in lahore does not entitle you to write anything about India.
You have assumed just too many things and spun up an imaginary web.
BTW can you clear a point. Do you think India is an Islamic country? Wahhabis in India? Man what are you saying?
You want to dance & sing? Kindly make a little effort and visit the nearest Navratri festivals (currently on). How stupid can a person be when he thinks that people in India do not dance and sing but practise wahhabism? Please stop writing trash.
It is really astonishing to see anyone mention Vajpayee and Saddam in one sentence. Nothing can be so offensive & so atrocious.
Now do me a favor and kindly mention Bush & Hitler & Bin Laden in the same sentence.
You have assumed just too many things and spun up an imaginary web.
BTW can you clear a point. Do you think India is an Islamic country? Wahhabis in India? Man what are you saying?
You want to dance & sing? Kindly make a little effort and visit the nearest Navratri festivals (currently on). How stupid can a person be when he thinks that people in India do not dance and sing but practise wahhabism? Please stop writing trash.
It is really astonishing to see anyone mention Vajpayee and Saddam in one sentence. Nothing can be so offensive & so atrocious.
Now do me a favor and kindly mention Bush & Hitler & Bin Laden in the same sentence.
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