In Search of the Moderate Muslim

Ras #54: ``Pakistani-American Rock Band ``Junoon````

I always thought Junoon was a Pakistani Rock band.

Re: Urstruly #52

Urstruly, you propound a `take all or leave all` attitude -- implying that the individual cannot exercise his/her creativity in picking and choosing. This approach, that counters flexibility/openess/adaptability, is very dangerous for the survival of any belief/ideology/species. As times change, so must human beings and their belief systems. An absolutist approach does not favor the survival of a rigid belief system in a Darwinian world.

....... talking about ``cultural`` muslims, most garden-variety christians in pakistan, other than the anglos, are more ``cultural`` muslims than the banana republic crowd that lives in defence or f-8 .... they have names like yaqub and shaheen, greet each other with as-salaam o alikum, say `` allah ka shukr hai`` when asked how their miserable lives are doing, even parrot the silly ``allah hafiz``, love nihari and siri-paye like the rest of us, wear shalwar kameeez and set off fire-works on shab-i-barat and will skip lunch during ramadhan so that they don`t offend their muslim friends ..........but that was not enough to save them from being massacred by the true believers ...........

........ and that, ms. versey, is the danger in being a ``cultural`` muslim ......... there is only one kind of muslim and the rest, according to god and gabriel and urstruly, are either apostates or heretics or plain old infidels .......... take your pick and get ready to face the wrath of the most merciful and benevolent ...........

Re: MaheshG

``But when a Shahi Imam in India stands up and equates the war against the Taliban as a war against Islam then yes we have every right to ask the Muslims in India about their opinion.``

I know this Shahi fellow is a little crazy, but have you ever considered his stance on Kashmir? He shocks me every now and then when he says exactly what the GoI has been saying...the Kashmir issue is nothing more than Pakistani terrorism. He has gone on many tirades about this. I don`t know what to think of him....

Re: your questions to FarceAnna (credit to whoever came up with this), a word of friendly advice....don`t waste your time. You`re not going to get any rational answers.

I agree with Urstruly post #53 with few additions:

1. In the phrase, ``dudh with maingnian``, I tend to believe that duddh (milk) is natural human goodness and maingnian is politics of Islamists, fundamentalists, jehadis, madaris, sunnis, shias, ahmedis, ismaelis, deobandis, barelvis, wahabis, mullahs, Taliban, Saudis,..........

2. A ``good`` Muslim is a stupid human being, a believer in past-perfection theory, a coward forward-looking and brave backward-looking (with respect to time), stuck somewhere in the middle of evolutionary ladder-fearful of climbing up, happy to climb down and spends too much time and energy as insurance premium for a ``good`` place in afterlife.

3. A ``Bad`` Muslim does not cross into Afghanistan with Mullah Shafi Mohammadi and his TNSM. He/ She does not block Karakoram highway. He/ She respects laws, those made by men for men. He/ She does not does not spray bullets on places of talking to god belonging to other sects or Christians of Bahawalpur.

4. Best way to become bad Muslim from good muslim is to ignore religion as much as possible in practical life.

And Shabana -- well Shabana Azmi is an illustious daughter of an illustrious father.

Besides being a great screen artist -- she is also a fighter for women`s rights -- irrespective of their religion, ethnicity and creed -- Shabana Azmi is the pride and joy of a secular India -- the way it should be.

I wish there were more Muslim women like her -- including you Ms. Versey.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

This is the first batch of responses. I will try to answer some of the queries posed to me as best as I can. Also, the responses will be to those who have addressed me, I am assuming the others do not want a reply or are expressing their views -- the yardstick for a healthy debate.

Sarwari (#1):

Thanks, Aisha, though do look critically at the content as well :)

Hariharan (#2):

Your point: “I don`t know why he (Pres Mushurraf) said that because it is demeaning women. It is almost saying that women are scarred and not fit for leadership. He forgot Ms Bhutto, Ms.Gandhi and Ms.Zia, Ms. Rehman and Ms. Bandaranayike who are/were demonstrated leadership and have large following.”

But, men do demean women except those that prove convenient to them. The flipside is that women who talk about certain issues are said to be ‘as good as men’ or, worse, masculine, or in politics they are referred to as, “The only man in the cabinet”. Unfortunately, many women leaders begin to play that tune – therefore I feel that Benazir by going along with she thought was expected in a mullah-dominated society messed things up even more than Zia (at least from this narrow agenda of female empowerment) and Indira Gandhi made pathetic blunders when it came to her son’s whims and fancies. But we are sidetracking. Do interact regarding the question under scrutiny….you were saying something about the second testament :)

Mahesh (#3,4):

First, I am not crying, so don’t feel so sorry for me. You want to know if you can, as a Hindu, wage jihad against Muslims, ask for Muslim obeisance… NO. Because the issues are not connected. I am specifically talking about Indian Muslims, right? So, they (a fringe group, which I have emphasized has no popular clout) have not asked for a jihad against Hindus; not now and not in 1993. And, on what grounds would you expect Muslim obeisance? Is there a law that says so? Or a moral need? Yes, if a Muslim commits a crime, he/she ought to be tried for it and must adhere to all norms not only of the judiciary but of decency.

About Azmi asking the Imam to be airdropped and my objection to it versus someone saying the same about Bal Thackeray, you must realise that this subject about liberalism is unique to Indian Muslims. Besides, where is the question of anyone asking Balasaheb to go anywhere – they are too afraid. Whereas no one is frightened of the Imam. Thackeray has a definite political constituency; his party has been in power in the state and in the coalition at the centre.

I also notice that you have chosen only the ‘negative’ rights I have mentioned – what about the rest that no true-blue Muslim would forgive me for? About assuming the worst about Hindus in India, I have used the term ‘Hindus’ and ‘fundamentalist Hindus’ once each in this article. And I do make a difference. And I would question the latter about the Babri Masjid; I do not catch hold of my neighbours to explain. Hindus have not been made to feel guilty about that act. Like you do not question people who believe in justice and freedom about the carpet-bombing of Afghanistan.

You say: “I don`t understand why Muslims shouldn`t be asked specifically about this terrorism. After all these people committed these acts in the name of Islam.” Which version of Islam? And if you do believe it is a unified whole, then please tell me, why are the liberals not questioned about it? Why are certain ‘characters’ baited and made into caricatures? And what are the standards to define liberalism within the confines of a religion? As far as I know, people from the Muslim League had condemned the attack in NY. But no one believes them. This is the tragedy. I wish you would see through the double-speak of the ones who mouth the ‘right’ words and spare me instead :)

I am re-posting a part of what I wrote to you on the other Board (where you accepted “hum ek hi mulk ke hai”!): [I do have positive things to say about India, but obviously it does not get noticed since I am often talking about the twilight zone. I wish I would be seen as a devil’s advocate, if nothing else. We hang on to every word of a Huntington or Chomsky, no doubt well argued and erudite, but we have problems when our own people point our flaws. I have always spoken as an Indian and at last you have accepted it. But I have a sneaky suspicion that this is not going to last…. you have your eyes trained elsewhere :)]

How right I was… I know you will not be satisfied with my answers. So ask…

Godot (#5):

[Farzana, you live in a country and a society that, in general, has not developed and matured. Good luck!]

I do need all the luck in the world and it was nice of you to say that my being what I am makes me a better person, but my country, like most others, is developing. The evolution is slow and there are too many cobwebs, but we are walking around with broomsticks. Often we get mistaken for witches, but we just might magically transform. Watch this space.

tvarad (#6):

[``If we think our religion is the best, we have every right to believe so.

If we think all religions are equal, we must lead our lives in keeping with this cliché``

Is this your Freudian slip showing? Or you wanting to have your secular cake and eating it too?]

I am glad you brought this up. No Freudian slip here, it was deliberate. The secular/liberals (I would not use the term interchangeably the way it has developed) do want to eat their cake and have it too, which is what a large part of the article was about. No, I am not in this august company. I am happier dipping my ideological bread in home-made garam chai – some of it may settle at the bottom of the cup, but at least I do not have to worry about how the icing on the cake will look. Sometimes it is a soggy mess, but I alone have to eat it. It is my food and my funeral.

Tahmed321 (#7):

[Ms. Versey: The point of your article being........ (please fill in the blanks, thank you).]

Mr Ahmed: 2120 words…the point being…some people have got it, you have not. I am sorry about it. I would have really liked you to interact here, having read your well-thought-out posts elsewhere. Perhaps, if you have the time and inclination, you will occasionally pop in to see how the discussion goes and maybe then it will be clearer. Thank you.

Ras (#10):

Somebody may just ask you to define what a “very fine human being” is :)

Sadna (#11):

The ‘they’ is Muslim liberals and anyone in Indian society who baits Muslims about their true colours. I have been saying for quite a while that public debate must move beyond “symbolism and haahaakaars”. But are we ready to question the symbols that we assume can do no wrong only because they come with a flash of bright lights that we mistake for enlightenment?

ylh (#13):

Yasser, Rafiq Zakaria is not an “idiot”; for me these people are dangerous because they come with a heavy intellectual baggage which they carry around with them and then add destination labels as they go along, when what they are doing is merely standing in one place. Which is why they have not been in a position to come up with a single modern interpretation if Islam, though they seem to be working at it all the time.

And since you brought up the subject, I do believe that Jinnah’s ‘fanatic’ face was a creation of the moderates (he was reacting to them). This is how the truly secular are overtaken.

Asif Naqshbandi (#17):

[Muslims will always be ``the other`` unless you become totally secularised or lose your

Islamic identity.]

The irony is that those who claim to be totally secularized are desperately seeking to be the voice of Muslims because Islam in the times of terrorism has great publicity potential.

While I agree with you that Muslims must help their own, I do not go along with the view that they should remove themselves from the political process. They are citizens and must have a say.

As for what Muslims in general think of Imam Bukhari – they do not waste time over him. Really. He is not even a “government scholar” (I quite like that term!), but he is a smart pawn – ek haath se lau, doosre haath se dau.

[We have to put Islam first, above even our nationalities.]

I don’t think so. It would be ideal if both can co-exist, but that is not possible in any society. You yourself have talked about the different Islams. And I talk about different ways of seeing patriotism. And there will be hundred other ways of seeing…

[May Allah help our Muslim brethren in India (and in Pakistan!). When I hear of an Indian Muslim --any Muslim--doing well in any field or endeavour I get happy.]

Well, to be honest, I do not feel particularly happy….a bit jealous maybe! They can call themselves Muslim and Indian. I also sometimes envy those who have this unstinting faith in god.

Shammi (#19):

When one is raising points against something, it therefore follows that one is FOR the opposite of that: I am for not baiting Muslims everytime something remotely Islamic occurs, I do not want Muslims to be asked to make a choice between two sets of ‘values’ when there are many more, I do not want Muslims to have to cave in to the liberalism of those whose masks have to be peeled. I am sorry you thought my reference to Azmi’s RS stint being on her Muslim status was in “bad taste”, but so was your asking me for my qualifications. But, never mind. Because, I know that I have never asked nor been given anything because I am a Muslim. And when I have worked at the ground level, I have not let my ego dictate which group is in a better position to represent the dispossessed. And I do not crib that my voice is not being heard and then give 20 interviews to that effect, in my capacity as a Muslim. These are my ‘qualifications’ and despite that I want to do something. Your offer to help is greatly appreciated. Tell me where you are and if you want to walk with me.

PS: The much-maligned Bombay stars may not specifically do anything for the dispossessed, but they are there when there is any calamity, irrespective of caste or religion. Yes, they do what they are best at – perform on stage to collect funds. But then Ms. Azmi did dance with Richard Gere on a table at a sit-down dinner in aid of AIDS victims, did she not?

Bijli (#20):

Asking Sushmita Sen and the others about Ayodhya would amount to doing precisely what I have been talking against – please do not hold everyone responsible for something a section of them indulges in.

Nasah (#25):

Lucky you, you get to sit among the believers, choose the chunks of meat from the Qorma – that makes you brave, not a coward, believe me! I agree with you when you say, “That’s how the myth persists, perpetuates -- and all that illiterate religious garbage piles up – higher and higher – into another Himalaya of ignorance, bigotry and fanaticism.”

Now take the same situation with the ‘liberals’, the ones who …well…you know…Let me quote from something I had written in my column some months ago…

// Then there is the other extreme. The singular agenda type, whose major contribution to the ‘dispute’ is that she either wrote an academic treatise on the subject or went on that mandatory picnic to Ayodhya and together with the ‘chevda’ she carried in her jute bag even a bit of her got crushed in the stampede. “It was such a memorable experience. it brought tears to my eyes. It was like watching a Cecil B. de Mille film -- hordes rushing, the splash of saffron, and the dome rising magnificently against the sky while people were going hammer-and-tongs at it. It was an epic, not some stupid ‘masala’ movie that these fools make it out to be. But then they lack commitment, you know. The episode moved me so much I used to sit at the Press Club or go to IIC and just thrash out the matter…by the way, I went to Khau Galli, what paayas, man…so where was I? Hanh, the country’s integrity is at stake.//

Regards,

Farzana

Farzana,

This was great. I love your writing not because it`s beautiful (because it really isn`t ;)... but because it`s candid and straight from the heart and mind,,, no sugar coating, no mincing of words, with an interesting sense of humor pervading through and through.

I especially liked the following:

``It beats me then why the liberals are liberal?

What do they do? Push the right buttons, say the right things? Funny how they use the Quran to justify their acts, quoting para and verse, but if a mullah does it, god help him. They want to culturally remove themselves from the community

and yet speak for that community. And the conservatives who are so caught up in their frayed books and have no inkling about the culture become custodians to ‘liberate’ the community. It is all very circuitous.``

Very interesting and thought provoking article.

You`re a talented lady, don`t give any credence to the developmentally delayed who hurl personal insults to you on an anonymous board.

Romair #67,

Brian O Connell, Junoon`s guitarist, is American, a NY`er.

Re: SameerJB, #71

``Best way to become bad Muslim from good muslim is to ignore religion as much as possible in practical life.``

Ignoring religion (Islam) in practical life does not make a bad Muslim. In practical life any religion, not only Islam, has to be ignored. Bonding with God has nothing to do with how we live our lives and behave towards other. In fact, I believe, ignoring religion in practical life makes a person good. If everyone could do that this would be a lot better world than it is today.

Re: YLH #13

``...Rafiq Zakaria is an idiot...``

One of Rafiq Zakaria`s sons was the editor of Foreign Affairs, and is now the editor of Newsweek International. The other son was the youngest ever SVP in Citibank(? or major Wall St. institution). Both sons grew up in a 3rd world country. The sons achievements would do any parent proud, and all you can say is that Rafiq Zakaria is an idiot? What precisely are your qualifications? (selling unsolicited life insurance over the phone?).

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to demonstrate some maturity.

Farzana (#75)

You wrote:

[While I agree with you that Muslims must help their own, I do not go along with the view that they should remove themselves from the political process. They are citizens and must have a say.]

Farzana you misunderstood me I`m afraid! When I wrote they must not wait for the government to help them but help themselves I did not mean to imply that they should remove themselves from the political process. On the contrary, I believe that Muslims should work to become a powerful lobby within Indian politics (a la the Jews in the USA) and thus help the situation of Muslims and protect them. But to do this they need to be united and work together for the benefit of Muslims in India as a whole and forget about petty and/or regional/personal differences. Again, the Jews in the US are a good model. Like they control US policy so the Muslims can then get to control Indian government policy. The key to all this is economic clout within India which in turn depends on education and having a pan-Islamic identity whilst still being Indians. :-)

Ms Farzana,

I cannot feel what you feel as I do not belong to a minority community but I guess one can feel it vicariously in different situations in life when one is not part of a collective ..be it workplace, community where one lives or just another city in another part of country which has different culture/sub-culture. Being part of minority is never comforting for one reason or another.

As you and many others have lot of grievances as I have seen posts and posts stating the flaws and shortcomings of Indian social system. I agree with all of you to some extent. Its definitly is not a good system. Society is not the best society in the world and nowhere near to it. People are not as they should be .... and to make matters worse many of them are fanatics (Muslims think of Hindus and Hindus think of Muslims please :-)).

I have a simple suggestion to make without offending anyone. Why don`t we add a paragraph or two in our articles giving ideas on how we can improve the system or contribute towards the betterment of our society. Be it Pakistan or India or any other country in the region. All of them are poor with people who lack education and a will to change. Our culture is strong because its age old but we need to modify it a little to make it appropriate for the time we live in.

I know people are already contributing by writing some thought provoking articles but most people on Chowk already understand what the problems are and most of them will agree on the basic problems that we face today like the few I mentioned above.

We may not agree on everything but one thing is common, we all want to see our countries becoming prosperous and our people spending their lives in peace ( ..ok ..may be not all but i can say most, can`t I).

So, if you can suggest few things by which things can be improved in our society and how that would be great. I know of one such basic thing and that is law enforcement and judiciary.

Now how to improve everything in the society? Frankly there is no cure, all we can do is to make people aware and let them make the decision.



I think, We can start by educating our children and convincing our friends and family members that being open minded is a good thing. Its good to change old customs that are useless. We should question the religious texts wherever we feel that they inapropriate and morally wrong (anyone who got offended at this statement please think this statement is for other community till you can forget for a moment that you are not a Hindu or Muslim. Remember you are a human being on the planet earth. Thats all. For a mement only. Later you can join that ranks of RSS or JI again

:-)). What the hell is this open minded? Well, it means thinking without any bias. This is something which we rarely do and it is something that we need to do as much as we can.

Also I would suggest fixing the education system so that we give more doses of moral values to kids. That would require better trained teachers.

There are several other such suggestions which are hard to implement but we can at least play our role by educating the kids we know or the people whom we know.

Don`t want to go on more then this to make the reading painful as if it was not enough yet.

Shammi#79 Agreed one hundred percent.

Shammi #79,

It is Merrill Lynch. Not Citibank.