Benazir Bhutto in Sacramento

Does anyone else read this mans column in Indian Express ?

http://www.indian-express.com/columnists/mush/index.html

anNY #84 The one-time I had the chance to see her up close (4 seats away, around a square conference table) when she met some of us Pakis in the US, BB did strike an attractive figure. She came in late to the meeting, by herself, apologizing profusely, and reminded me of a college student coming late for class. But her clever answers to questions posed by us (most of them quite blunt, in the same vein as some of the posts about her on this board) assured me that the private person was the same as the public person - uncaring for Pakistan, and eager to somehow get a third chance. Citizen BB may be OK, but Prime Minister BB has had 2 chances and that is one chance more than enough for any person, even BB.

Zico

Sorry, the Sarwari post still stands valid.. as for your post, it is a bunch of crap (read fertile Indian imagination).

-YLH

tvrad,

If you really think we Pakistanis are obsessed with you guys and not the other way around, what are you doing on this board... and why is it that there are Indians on every Pakistani site, but very few pakistanis ever go to Indian sites?

There is only one nation in the subcontinent which is obsessed with the other, and that aint Pakistan.

Please dear Shammi, and idiot saxena,

Do not think that for a moment I commend the Military takeover, but I know that the Military takeover was the lesser of the two evils. Given the option between a Democratically elected Nawaz Sharif planning on becoming the `Amirulmomineen` of Pakistan, and a Kemalist General-dictator, I think I would choose Kemalist general anyday.

Democracy is dear to me, but its not a priority especially when our people in Pakistan have not yet achieved that political culture... nor do I think the continuation of democracy unchecked would create that political culture, because we see in India that Democracy has only moved the country from bad to worse when it comes to the issues of human rights etc.

My only assertion was that since Musharraf has sought legitimacy from the Supreme Court, it is only fair to assume that the `fundamental rights` chapter of the Pakistan constitution stands despite the `suspension`.

-YLH

Re: Arrested Dev

``5/ahaan--once i came across a whole porno site devoted to feet FETISH``

so this is a regular ritual for you?

Zico # 83

;-)

...........................................................................

Just kidding Pakistanis. Just a little fun.



ZICO,

if you were just kidding ,it would be not as pathetic.

But you plagarised it from posting in SULEKHA ,which would have been alright ,if you had given the due credit of copy rigt or acknowledgement.

PATHETIC

dear arrested development

you are saying that as a man youve never noticed pretty feet in women? u are a very sad case then....theres nothing as feminine as nice, well kept feet or a pretty ankle...when i met benazir, she was dressed uuugly..real uugly and her shoes were even uglier...but since it was an informal dinner party she soon removed the shoes and while evryone was drooling over her solitaire, i couldnt stop looking at her feet..flawless, creamy, pedicured feet with nice light silverish pink nail colour..alright?

please keep me away from your porno thoughts next time...ask for an explaination if you dont understand something

Top Ten Tips For Ambitious Pakistani Generals

10. Colonise Afghanistan for ten years, be complicit in massacre of 10,000 Hazara Shias in Mazar-e-Sharif. This is the price of ``strategic depth``.

9. Allow your country to be used by Arab militants.

8. Explode afew bombs in Kashmir, kill afew Hindu sheperds.

7. Sit back while your friends blow up Buddhist staues.

6. Persecute Ahmedhis/Christians/Hindus.

5. Massacre Christians in church and blame it on India.

4. Label everyone who disagrees with you a ``Zionist`` or “Hindu” .

3. Proclaim the greatness of your state and its inviolability.

2. 5h1t in your pants like a cowardly little scarecrow when you receive a midnight call from Texas saying ``Let us use you like a condom again or we blast you to pieces``

1. Betray your whole Ummah like an Uncle Tom and blame the Hindus for everything afflicting Pakistan from their constipation to September 11 itself (which was a Jewish conspiracy to defame Islam, of course)

;-)

...........................................................................

Just kidding Pakistanis. Just a little fun.

Arrested and Kafir (#71, #72)

Come off it, guys! It was just a bloody innocuous comment. If it isn`t something up your alley, let it go, move on.

Check out Benazir`s article on

http://slate.msn.com/code/ThisJustIn/ThisJustIn.asp?Show=9/21/2001&idMessage

=8335

A Loser in Waiting - a critique on Ms. Bhutto by Asim Hayat



I had the distinct displeasure of perusing through the article written by

our notorious daughter of the East, the first Muslimah swindler par

excellence of Pakistan! I feel like asking myself what is the incremental

value that i gained by reading this claptrap, that i did not know before.

what is that esoteric explanation that the good lady gives here that made a

difference in my comprehension of the players and the issues at hand. Sadly,

I cant come up with a single bit of information that added to my perception

of her antics or to the crisis at hand!

Notwithstanding my earlier assessment of her personality traits, Miss Bhutto

managed to reaffirm my hypothesis that she is a conniving, self centred, and

despicable human being! Her half baked rhetoric, her ``bought`` foreign

education, her pleas of having been misunderstood by the illiterate awaam,

coupled with her paltry intelligence makes her armed and dangerous. Her

sheer inability to focus on issues at hand as opposed to attempting to fit

in her myopic agenda is so transparent in this write-up. This article is

based partly on some well known facts and mostly on self serving rhetoric.

What amazes me the most is how craftily she manages to divert the attention

of the reader away from the central raison de etre of her dismissals, (her

avaricious nature to hold on to power and the resources of Pakistan as her

God given inalienable right). But she paints a picture of a helpless damsel

in distress, one who was supposed to have been the target of two

assassinations. Pretty Pathetic! and that the Taliban toppled her

government. She also flamboyantly waves her magic wand of ``Get rid of the

military rule in Pakistan, or else there will be hell``. Not that anyone is

listening to her. Thank God/Allah/Dios/Bhagwan/Khuda for that!

What an absolute waste of all that ``Pakistani revenue``, which went into

procuring a suitable ``foreign`` education at Harvard and Oxford! Just goes to

show that one can take a mule to the edge of the water, but one can not

necessarily make it drink. I sincerely wish, someone with some ``guts`` raise

this article as an issue of discussion at the upcoming talk on Thursday

about her naiveté, in terms of dealing with an international crises. Perhaps

an ``O`` levels student could have done a better job of this superficial

analysis, by possibly having given more thought to developing his ideas

before putting pen to paper.

Ms Bhutto is not a leader by virtue of her words, her character, her

integrity, and her wit, even though she might have severest delusions of

grandeur of being a divinely appointed Prime Minister of Pakistan!

Re: Asim Hayat

I was waiting for you to show up here..

Yes, Musharraf and Pakistanis have no more worries. Asim is right behind them during Pakistan`s current crisis.

Ras

Another perspective on the Bhutto speech at Stanford, for the gullible amongst us!

Salam,

I don`t know if the rest of you thought so but it seemed to me that this

is how part of Benazir`s talk went (if I recall correctly):

She was talking about the madrassahs in Pakistan and the terrorist

mentality they bred, and how they were responsible for toppling her

government twice, and suddenly went on to claim that these very same

terrorists were responsible for US embassy bombings and WTC plane crashes

and everything bad thats happened in the world. Basically what she seemed

to be saying was that everyone in Pakistan except for her and her party

were terrorists and Pakistan was THE breeding ground for them who have

brought so much harm not just to her but to the entire world.

I think that was the one thing that really gave me offence: she accused,

convicted and sentenced Pakistan as the breeding ground for terrorism. I

really hope that that is not what the audience took away from her talk,

and that the flyers we distributed, the questions we asked, and her

consistent self-portrayal as a victim helped undermine the credibility of

her assertions.

All that said, I think Benazir did a good job commenting on what the US

foreign policy in the Middle East and Kashmir should be. She also did an

excellent job of totally stripping the Pakistan judiciary of any

credibility whatsoever. I believe the Hudood laws question was asked not

by a Pakistani but by one of our friendly neighbors. And her answer as to

why she is not in Pakistan facing the corruption charges against her?

Simple: She has 3 kids and a mother to take care of while her husband

languishes in prison.

I heard a lot of people talking about the flyers we distributed. One

person wanted to know where he could get more of the information listed in

the flyers. Others were discussing how they had had no prior knowledge

about a lot of the facts that we presented. After the talk some others

said they were confused by the political facts about her tenures and

Pakistani politics in general : which means we should have included more

political and chronological details to paint a whole picture rather than

having simply concentrated on the negative aspects of her political

career.

All in all, the Americans were there to learn more about the Taliban and

how it all went wrong. The Pakistanis were there to expose Bhutto as a

corrupt politician and a convicted felon. I got the impression that a lot

of people in the audience were irked by the questions dwelling upon the

nitty gritty of Pakistani politics: people would have preferred it if she

had just stuck to the Afghanistan-Pakistan-USA love triangle. The

ruin-Benazir`s-credibility campaign we ran perhaps was information

overdose for quite a few. To be fair, she was the one who started

glorifying her governments` achievements and blaming everyone else for

everything that went wrong in Pakistan and Afghanistan during her talk

(apparently she had warned the US about what would happen in Afghanistan

if they left it in the state they did eventually leave it in)-- and I am

really glad we did not sit tight during Q & A and let her get away with

it.

A friend of mine pointed out that we should not have given Bhutto a chance

to defend herself against the charges during Q & A since she evidently did

a good job of sidestepping the accusations. However, her main defences

were the `innocent until proven guilty` rhetoric and `ruin the

opposition`s credibility` strategy and not a flat out `I did not do so and

so and I will defend myself in any court in the world` assertion, which

the audience hopefully saw through. To sum it up, I think one comment I

overheard says it all: ``They should not have had a talk, they should just

have had the questions and answers session.`` At least it left the audience

thinking.

a concerned student

PS: The following is the list of facts Sheba and I compiled which were

handed out as flyers before the talk.

I am also listing the questions that we came up with, of which questions

1,2 and 4 were asked by our friends in the audience.



BENAZIR BHUTTO: FACTS UNVEILED



* Contrary to her campaign promises, Bhutto did not pass legislation to

repeal any of the severe restrictions of the previous military regime

against women. (Human Rights Watch, August 1999)



* Over 2000 people were killed during her second tenure, from 1993 to

1996, amid charges of extra-judicial killings of her political opponents.

(The Times, London, February 5, 1997)



* A Swiss judge froze Swiss bank accounts in 1997, reportedly containing

$14 million belonging to Benazir Bhutto, her spouse Asif Zardari and her

mother Nusrat Bhutto. (Agence France Presse, December 21, 1997)



* A Swiss judge formally demanded the indictment of Benazir Bhutto in

1998, on money-laundering charges related to alleged kickbacks from two

Swiss firms that led to huge financial losses for the Pakistan national

treasury. (The Daily Telegraph, London, August 20, 1998)



* Bhutto and Zardari were charged with illegally accumulating a fortune

worth more than $100 million while Benazir was in power. (New York Times,

January 9, 1998)

* Benazir and Zardari still face another 9 cases relating to alleged

kickbacks and abuse of power. (Sunday Times, London, April 8, 2001)



* London

Yet another perspective of another attendee of Bhutto`s talk at Stanford.

Here are a few excerpts from her speeches as I remember them as well as some

public comments.

1. ``Luckily, I wasn`t a Prime Minister when Pakistan carried out the N-tests``.

2. ``Pakistan`s International Image worsened from their interference in Kargil``

3. ``Her father from the death cell sent her his last letter quoting some

words from Robert Kennedy!...`` (seemed like he had a lot of time in his last

letter since she read Kennedy`s words in front of American public which was

a longish quote) :)

4. ``Give me constitutional majority and not just legislation majority so

that I can change such controversial laws`` (In response to a question as why

she failed to amend the Hudood ordinance which violates women rights)

5. ``My mother is suffering from Alzheimer, her assets have been confiscated

:( my daughter was 3 when her father went to jail :((, my husband was framed

in a suicide attempt, where in fact his neck and tongue was cut :(((, my

father was hanged :(((((((, I correct you there are about 32 cases against

our family and not just 9 as mentioned by someone in the crowd, ... I was

made to attend cases in Karachi, Lahore, Rawalpindi etc, so I had to travel

every day for it, judges used to listen to myself even after court times

were over since law was more equal for me, I`ve appealed to UN about such

court conduct against myself and have asked them to visit the situation

themselves, your govt found $1500 counterfeit notes from some blah blah

person (she linked that person to her cases i don`t remember how), a colonel

is sitting in the case hearing, normal judges are paid Rs. 22000,

accountability judges were paid Rs 80000 with cars and houses and half a

million worth of other things etc etc... judiciary is bribed blah blah.....

`` (in response to as why she is reluctant to answer when people ask her that

there are 9 cases against her. Here she sought to emotional appeal by almost

crying before telling her tale of misery)

6. ``I support General Musharaf on his decision to support the US``

7. ``Its dictatorship that has led to the creation of terrorists in Pakistan

so it should be ensured that Pakistan returns to democracy``

8. ``I`ve increased literacy by one-third by opening 30000 (wow) schools

funded by the world bank``

My memory fails me from reproducing her quotes verbatim therefore I`ll

summarise some of the other points. She did defend Islam in a positive way

by stating that there is no room for such terrorism and violence as was

witnessed by Sept 11 attacks. She also blamed the Anti-Soviet Coalition for

leaving them alone against terrorists that they themselves created to fight

against the Soviets by brain washing them to fight in the name of Jihaad.

She said that Milatry is responsible for every bad thing happened to

Pakistan and Democracy is badly needed to change things. People should be

allowed to choose what they want.

I heard some American at my back saying ``She speaks well``. Another friend of

that person replied, ``Yeah, she is a politician``. The initial response after

her speech was quite overwhelming by the American public. They got impressed

by her oratory. However, as people started to ask controversial questions

the intensity of clapped increased on questions and lessend on her answered.

In the end, people got out quite unsure as to what she is. Does she really

mean what she says. Why is that most of the pinching questions were asked by

the Pakistanis themselves. I`d leave someone else to complete the picture

here as I am sure the experience of everyone else about this would be quite

different.

An EXECUTIVE SUMMARY of Benazir`s speech earlier at Stanford, by an attendee.

1. Yes there were placards both before and after the speech. Many Stanford

students

saw these placards. We had also distributed flyers titled ``Benazir unveiled``

before the

speech and in fact one person handed it over to Benazir during the Q&A

session.

However, Benazir sneaked in from the backdoor (as usual). So she never saw

the placards.

I think there were some ``dupatta carriers`` who actually drove Benazir from

her hotel to

Stanford.

2. Of course, no BB speech is without self-glorification -- I handed over

Ramzi Yusuf to

US authorities. I had a hotline telephone with Rajiv Gandhi during tensions

between India

and Pakistan. (I wonder if Zardari knew about this? Just kidding.) blah blah

blah.

However, she also made it clear to the American students that Islam is

against any form

of terrorism and that these terrorists do no represent the true values of

Islamic faith.

However, I must say this that BB is a very good speaker. She speaks at a

slow pace emphasizing

each and every word. It also helps her to gather her thoughts when

responding to questions.

I guess those days with debating clubs at Harvard and Oxford did not go

waste after all.

3. Yes, people asked her some critical questions such as Sheba asked her

about

Swiss judges charging her with embezzlement of funds from the National

Treasury

and her 26 bank accounts and 14 properties. Another person asked her about

the 2000 people

that were killed during clashes in Karachi which was kind of a

state-sponsored terrorism

where she was killing her political opponents and innocent civilians. The

Pakistani audience

started clapping during these questions even before she started her

response.

Benazir`s defense was that ``I have opponents just like any other politician``

and that ``I am innocent until proven guilty``

which is bullshit because she has already been proven guilty by both Swiss

and

British judges. Looks like she was unsuccessful in bribing these judges. In

fact,

in her case, it should be ``guilty unless proven innocent.``

Another person asked her about doing nothing to suppress the feudal system

in Pakistan.

Another person asked her about the Hudood Ordinance describing in elaborate

details

that Islam requires 4 witnesses for rape, blah blah blah.

(I don`t understand why every time some Pakistani out of the blue has to

embarrass us

by asking some silly question before the American audience. It happens every

time. Believe me.)

There were two long lines of questioners and when Benazir realized that she

should not expect

many words of praise from this audience, she wrapped up the Q&A after 6,7

questions.

4. I talked to an ABC newsperson as well as a couple of Stanford students

after the speech.

I told them that Benazir is a very smooth talker and that they should not be

deceived by her

speech. I told them that Pakistanis gave her not one, but two chances by

electing her twice

and on both occasions, she let them down miserably. All, she cared about was

how to grow

her personal wealth, power, and property.

I also told them that the US should not worry about there being no democracy

in Pakistan

because Musharraf is already helping the US

by providing them intelligence, airbases, and logistic support against the

terrorists.

So the US doesn`t need to bring Benazir back to power to fight terrorism in

the region.

In fact, it would make things worse.

All of the Americans that I talked to told me that Musharraf seems to be a

sensible person and

that in fact, he is risking assassination by siding with the US. They asked

me if Pakistanis felt

frustrated with US attitude of trying to control Pakistan`s policies by

imposing economic sanctions

whenever it wants and then lifting them when the US has an interest in

Pakistan. They said that even if

US gives aid to Pakistan, the US should not control Pakistan`s policies. US

should

let Pakistani people decide their own destiny. Whether they want democracy

or military rule,

it should be the decision of the Pakistani people, not the US. According to

them, the US should not

repeat the same mistakes it made in Central America.

The ABC newsperson also thought that she was ``pretty.`` So I said, ``Yes,

pretty wicked.``

I also checked out the Stanford Daily that was published on Thursday.

Although the daily had

presented Benazir in a pretty positive manner by putting her picture on the

front page as well

as an ad on the 3rd page, Sheba`s editorial and our own counter-ad on the

5th or 7th page (can`t

remember which page exactly) pretty much exposed Benazir`s corrupt

background. In fact, the daily had changed

Sheba`s article`s heading from ``Beneath the charm`` to ``Benazir has a poor

legacy`` something

and that too not in bold letters. So it was a good thing that we posted a

counter-ad in the daily.

It really brought forward her corrupt background to the readers.

I think we should write more letters to the Stanford Daily exposing

Benazir`s true nature

and emphasizing that although she can charm audience through her speeches

and words, deep down, she is a

very corrupt politician and I would even say that Benazir has a personal

vendetta against

Pakistan because she believes that Pakistanis were responsible for the

execution of her father

and not just Ziaul Haq.

Hope this is a good bed-time reading for you.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The above was in response to my note below.

Notwithstanding the tremendous brouhaha that happened here prior to BiBi`s

address at Stanford, I was kind of expecting that at the very least that

some kind soul might have at the very least given an executive summary of

what actually transpired. So I waited patiently last night. I waited this

morning! I am afraid, I am not a very patient man. This deafening silence at

Pas needs to be reversed.

The writeup does not have to be existential. Something along the lines of

the following inquiry!

1. So what did actually happen? Did the placard guys show up? What was her

reaction and that of her ``supporting`` clique of ``dupatta carriers``?

2. What did she have to say in the speech? Was it as I expect empty rhetoric

coupled with shameless self glorification, given the experience of knowing

the Bibi as we do? Or was there any meat on the bones?

3. Did anyone address any ``in your face`` questions to this demagogue?

4. What did she have to say about those questions?

Bonus Question : What do u think the American audience took away from the

speech?

Or was it all simply a case of much ado about nothing!

Yours curiously,

Asim

The following note was addressed to the Pakistanis at Stanford, within the context of a protest demonstration against this eastern lady-crook. In fact the Pakistanis students at Stanford carried out an much needed information camapaign against the devious Ms Bhutto, by carrying out fdull page ads entitled ``Benazir Beneath the charm``, in the Stanford daily, and alos wrote many articles denouncing her claims of innocence.

When Oedipus realized that he had killed his father unknowingly and also the

fact that he had been sleeping with his mother, the gravity of his crimes

hit him so hard that he could not bear to see his own face. He felt

responsible for his acts and hence decided to punish himself. He plucked his

own two eyes, from his sockets, and left his native Rome. He could have

claimed his innocence given the facts, but he did not choose to do so. Or so

the Roman mythology would have one believe. (The unbearable Lightness of

being, by Milan Kundera)

Benazir Bhutto crimes are far more of a debacle than Oedipus`s. She ended up

screwing royally too, however with two notable difference. Benazir was fully

aware of her faculties when she successfully raped and pillaged this

moribund country of ours. Furthermore, unlike the mythical but noble Oedipus

she is still desperately trying to convince herself and many others around

her that she did what she did unknowingly and that she was a victim of

circumstances. Indeed morality has changed for the worse since the times of

Oedipus.

When we talk of letting things be as they are, we too are victims of the

same apathy and complacency that we see in the erstwhile dishonourable Ms

Bhutto. It is most ironic to see pleas of understanding in maintaining a

status quo in Pakistan. To let things be as they are, to look the other way,

to ignore, to not get involved, to forgive hyenas such as Benazir, to let

her get away with murder, literally! To think twice about voicing concerns

over the wrong doing of a criminal fugitive from justice, to having to

distance ourselves from the fray lest the good name of Pakistan come under

further scrutiny. That is the ultimate demise of our conscience of our

nation. Yet all those who propose to not accost Ms Bhutto and hold her

accountable for her past crimes, in view of the fact that we might further

denigrate Pakistan`s good name, I have but only sympathy. Good people, Stop

being deluded about your Pakistan. Pakistan`s name was besmirched when the

armed forces of West Pakistan conducted a systematic search and destroy

mission in the name of ethnic superiority against the innocent, and unarmed

``dark`` rice-eating Bengalis in 1971; on the command of the father of this

woman whom we are so trying to shield and whom we are letting speak on her

behalf. Pakistan`s name was spoiled the day the government made it their

business to meddle in the people`s religion, contrary to our Quaid secular

stance,`` State has nothing to do with the religion``. I could go on but you

hopefully get the picture.

For those of us, who still have delusions of the honour associated with the

word ``Pakistan`` and the rest of the world, let me tell you again, contrary

to the teachings of the public, grammar, and international schools within

Pakistan,``We are not the masters of the universe as some of us might have

been led to believe``. Having learnt that painful truth, could one move on

and make decisions which could help us all as a nation. Guys, You are the

creme de la creme of Pakistan, the ones armed with the western education and

a conscience, hopefully! Look around you. In a country of 140 million

people, there are a total of 41 students on Pas (Pakistanis at Stanford) list. What does that tell

you. That if you are not willing to take a stand, Mohd Feeqah from down the

road in inner Lahore certainly does not have a chance in hell in confronting

this evil and slandering excuse of a Pakistani woman .

You want to know about apathy of our lot. On pAS`S voting for the

confrontation with BB only 26 people replied. 36.5 persons did not bother to

reply. ``Chaddo gee kon is rolay which painda chaundha haini``(Oh forget it

who the devil wants to get embroiled in this nonsense``. My point is that if

not us, who are in this country on the basis of our own intellect and have

an opportunity to clear our conscience to set the records straight about Ms

Gargoyle, who will take the stance on fighting the evil that has festered in

the system back home. Sheba, I wanted to specially thank you for having

taken the time and the effort to at least the confront the ``rot`` of our

society, single-handedly and with so much vitality. Such unselfish and

conscientious acts go a long way in building a stronger morale for us all.

Some of us pointed out that the Indians would disparage us and make fun of

us. I say to hell with the Indians. Its time we found our own identity as

opposed to looking at the complexed Indians for moral support. Why must we

always be caught in the trap of comparing us with Indians on such ``paltry``

issues, and forget to look up to them when it comes to education, scientific

achievement. I recall that last year some 200 chappal wearing Indians

arrived at Stanford, compared to the 9 people from Pakistan. Even adjusting

for the population parity, this phenomenon can not be explained., except

that they beat us to it. And no not all of them are ``burgers``!

Lastly we call ourselves Muslims. What sort of Muslims are we that we can

not call a spade a spade. Where is our Iman (faith), which asks us to

condemn a wrong by first fighting against it; if we can not fight it to at

least condemn it by speaking about it, if we are so afraid to not even

speak, then to at least condemn it within our heart of hearts. Sadly, I am

unable to attend this meeting! I hope some noble people will make sure that

this Lady is made to answer some difficult questions, and to let the

American community at Stanford know that she is nothing but a self serving,

avaricious con artist, who has nothing more dearer to her heart than her own

good self.

To feel responsible for oneself and for one`s actions needs to be our

watchwords. The same should hold true of our expectations of our leaders. As

far as Benazir and her optimism for a third term in office as the divinely

appointed PM of Pakistan, I have just this much to say,`` Deceive me once,

shame on you! Deceive me twice shame on us``

Sincerely

Asim